Possible Irish SOPA Law? :/

Dara Robinson · 21-01-2012 3:19pm

pmcmahon wrote: »

Whatever about the recession and all that,but if something like that came in There would be a national emergency called because of the riots it would incur.

I cant imagine Irish people rioting. I can imagine them bitching about it until the cows come home but actually doing something.... would be nice to see though

Deleted User wrote: »

I sent a number if emails to Sean Sherlock regarding this when it was first mentioned a few months back. I pointed out the EU law, digital downloads, ect and asked why was it that the Irish government was lobbying on behalf of private companies to help protect profits and restrict access to the Internet. I asked him would they allow sites such as Flickr to be removed as there are numerous copyrighted images on the site or if they would take in google, yahoo, bing, etc which offer easied access to copyright material than any other site. I asked him to provide me with documents/proof that could link the fall of CDs with piracy.

I've yet to receive a reply.

Clearly then more direct action is required. I was hoping he would be kind enough to reply but clearly its time to start making more noise

darokane wrote: »

Anyone set up a petition yet?

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-irish-governmentsean-sherlock-cease-plans-to-bring-in-legislation-which-is-similar-to-sopapipa

Deleted User wrote: »

Look at it this way, in the US in 2010 sales of CDs (albums) dropped 12.8% but legal digital downloads of full albums rose by 13%. Those two figures say all you need to know about the issue.

Sales if singles/ 1 song iff of an album through digital downloads also rose considerably.

I'd love to see where those figures came from. Not that I doubt you, but actually to use them in an argument or post some other place if needed

strobe wrote: »

Ahh you know what, I know nothing about all this interneting stuff but I'm pretty sure it would take me 10 minutes on google to find a work around for this if it ever came in, what with proxies and that Tor network thing and what have you, I'm sure there's loads of other ways as well that I haven't heard about.

What a waste of time. It's like they're trying to fight a swarm of wasps with a sledge hammer from what I can see.

I think the important but there is "I know nothing about all this interneting stuff"

44leto · 21-01-2012 3:24pm

I heard this was coming in December so I am downloading like a lunatic. With the mega upload bust and this also similar legislation been proposed in Britain it is looking like the golden age of media piracy is coming to an end.

21-01-2012 3:26pm

Dara Robinson wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Look at it this way, in the US in 2010 sales of CDs (albums) dropped 12.8% but legal digital downloads of full albums rose by 13%. Those two figures say all you need to know about the issue.

Sales if singles/ 1 song iff of an album through digital downloads also rose considerably.

I'd love to see where those figures came from. Not that I doubt you, but actually to use them in an argument or post some other place if needed
"

Mentioned here: http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/industry/retail/u-s-album-sales-dropped-12-8-last-year-digital-1004137880.story

strobe · 21-01-2012 3:29pm

Dara Robinson wrote: »

I think the important bit there is "I know nothing about all this interneting stuff"

Yeah well man, like I said, I don't. I mean am I wrong? Is there not ways that you could work around an ISP block on certain websites?

Phill Ewinn · 21-01-2012 3:30pm

Aren't we basing our recovery on companies like Google, Facebook and the like?

Why would this ejit upset the apple cart. Does the minister work for EMI or IRL?????

44leto · 21-01-2012 3:39pm

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Aren't we basing our recovery on companies like Google, Facebook and the like?

Why would this ejit upset the apple cart. Does the minister work for EMI or IRL?????

He loses revenue in VAT.

I pirate but I know it is stealing I don't even try to justify it. Yes these companies make billions by selling their material, but so what. Apple make Billions selling their products, so should they give out a proportion of their products for free.

There is a naivety about media piracy that is particularly lunatic fringe. I am stealing fullstop, it is not mine to take for free, but I do.

amacachi · 21-01-2012 3:40pm

strobe wrote: »

Yeah well man, like I said, I don't. I mean am I wrong? Is there not ways that you could work around an ISP block on certain websites?

TPB has already started to move away from torrents so even blocking the traffic to trackers will soon be useless.

Course there's other methods that have been around longer than the internet, they're still around and thriving. This is one of those things that I'd really wish people would realise that trying to fight it will have little to no positive result but plenty of negative. Good ol' Politics though, have to be seen to be doing something.

amacachi · 21-01-2012 3:42pm

44leto wrote: »

He loses revenue in VAT.

I pirate but I know it is stealing I don't even try to justify it. Yes these companies make billions by selling their material, but so what. Apple make Billions selling their products, so should they give out a proportion of their products for free.

There is a naivety about media piracy that is particularly lunatic fringe. I am stealing fullstop, it is not mine to take for free, but I do.

Where does the money that "you would have spent" on the stuff you pirated go? I assume you buy other things that have VAT on them?

44leto · 21-01-2012 3:46pm

amacachi wrote: »

TPB has already started to move away from torrents so even blocking the traffic to trackers will soon be useless.

Course there's other methods that have been around longer than the internet, they're still around and thriving. This is one of those things that I'd really wish people would realise that trying to fight it will have little to no positive result but plenty of negative. Good ol' Politics though, have to be seen to be doing something.

You could stop it, my ISP knows what I download, Google knows. You could get a proxy concealer but even then the material goes to my IP address. So it is just a case of them adding an algorithm to see what is going onto my machine.

21-01-2012 3:48pm

44leto wrote: »

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Aren't we basing our recovery on companies like Google, Facebook and the like?

Why would this ejit upset the apple cart. Does the minister work for EMI or IRL?????

He loses revenue in VAT.

I pirate but I know it is stealing I don't even try to justify it. Yes these companies make billions by selling their material, but so what. Apple make Billions selling their products, so should they give out a proportion of their products for free.

There is a naivety about media piracy that is particularly lunatic fringe. I am stealing fullstop, it is not mine to take for free, but I do.

There's a loss of VAT but that's not due to piracy but rather that people are choosing digital downloads over traditional CD. Who is going to purchase a new release album for between 13-23 euro when amazon offer a convenient digital download for 9 euro. Factor in that you don't even have to leave the house, it's available 24/7 and can be dragged and dropped to your portable device and there's no real incentive to get the CD

Fluorescence · 21-01-2012 3:48pm

Don't forget about the international act ACTA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_bERAf5KAg

America, Japan,, Singapore, Canada and Australia have already signed, and the EU is set to sign at the end of the month if we don't start putting major pressures on our ministers.

Emails aren't effective. One thing the Americans discovered when combatting SOPA/PIPA was that calling up their representatives and companies backing the acts was extremely effective. Having the other person at the end of the line stuttering and clearly having no idea what they're talking about can make them seriously re-evaluate their position.

A lot of the people signing in this act will be non-internet folk who have no idea just how seriously damaging acts like these will have on free speech and the economy.

44leto · 21-01-2012 3:51pm

amacachi wrote: »

Where does the money that "you would have spent" on the stuff you pirated go? I assume you buy other things that have VAT on them?

Not really relevant, where it doesn't go is into the wages of an extravision staff or a record shop employee who also pay tax. This is not a victimless crime. Its theft and I know it is, so should you. What gives you the right to steal other peoples copy righted and intellectual property.

My justification is simple and pathetic "everyone else is doing it".

44leto · 21-01-2012 3:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a loss of VAT but that's not due to piracy but rather that people are choosing digital downloads over traditional CD. Who is going to purchase a new release album for between 13-23 euro when amazon offer a convenient digital download for 9 euro. Factor in that you don't even have to leave the house, it's available 24/7 and can be dragged and dropped to your portable device and there's no real incentive to get the CD

Amazon still pay VAT on that sale, but to the British government.
All I know is there use to be at least 6 video shops within a mile of me, now there is one, the same for record shops.

amacachi · 21-01-2012 3:57pm

44leto wrote: »

Not really relevant, where it doesn't go is into the wages of an extravision staff or a record shop employee who also pay tax. This is not a victimless crime. Its theft and I know it is, so should you. What gives you the right to steal other peoples copy righted and intellectual property.

My justification is simple and pathetic "everyone else is doing it".

It is relevant, unless you're squirrelling money away or using it in under-the-counter purchases the government will get the same VAT and you'll be supporting another company with other employees.

Amirani · 21-01-2012 4:00pm

44leto wrote: »

He loses revenue in VAT.

I pirate but I know it is stealing I don't even try to justify it. Yes these companies make billions by selling their material, but so what. Apple make Billions selling their products, so should they give out a proportion of their products for free.

There is a naivety about media piracy that is particularly lunatic fringe. I am stealing fullstop, it is not mine to take for free, but I do.

Why bother posting about something you obviously don't have the slightest clue about? You should do a bit of research on the differences between stealing and sharing copyrighted material before you post in a thread in which they're clearly going to be discussed.

Your Apple analogy just highlights the ignorance here.

21-01-2012 4:02pm

44leto wrote: »

Amazon still pay VAT on that sale, but to the British government.
All I know is there use to be at least 6 video shops within a mile of me, now there is one, the same for record shops.

I'm aware that amazon pays VAT, the point I was making is that the Irish government is losing VAT on music sales not because of piracy but rather due to the changing manner through which people get their music. iTunes, amazon, play, etc all offer digital downloads and it's a thriving service used by many Irish people. Tape killed vinyl, CD killed tape and digital downloads will kill CD. It's the natural order of things, that record companies are do reluctant to embrace the technology is their failing.

As for video stores closing down, it's the same thing. Why pay 5 or 5 euro to rent a film when you can buy it in HMV or online for a fiver in a months time. Digital downloads of films and TV shows is booming, who wants to pay 20 euro to buy a new release DVD when for half that you purchase the digital version or rent it for 3-4 euro and not have to worry about heading out and returning it the next day.

Do you think that legal streaming services should be cracked down on to save video stores and ensure higher VAT is collected? I'm about to watch Gnomeo and Juliet with my girlfriend, to rent it on DVD would be 4 euro and to buy it 10 euro at least but thanks to Netflix I can watch it and thousands others for 7 euro a month. Any wonder traditional avenues of acquiring content are dieing

squod · 21-01-2012 4:13pm

Solair wrote: »

Ireland should absolutely not do anything that could be seen to be remotely anti-internet or damaging to the free-flow of information online.

We are a small country and we should be trying to encourage IT companies to base here not being innovators in internet crack downs!

If you impose draconian laws you could endanger all sorts of future investments in Ireland from major IT companies. Any 'cloud' based service could potentially have material on it that might possibly break insanely tight copyright laws.

How much money does Ireland Inc. make from CD sales?? I would doubt it makes very much.

Vs. how much money do we make from inward investment from Google (YouTube), Facebook, Twitter, and umpteen other companies all of whom operate in the zone of free-flow of information.

We will scare off "cloud computing" investors, scare off companies from putting major networking infrastructure here etc etc etc.

The Government would want to tread very carefully and not just cave in to media company lobbyists.

Can I share this content and send it off in an angry letter to the minister for EMI? You've put it way better than I could.

Dara Robinson · 21-01-2012 4:19pm

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Aren't we basing our recovery on companies like Google, Facebook and the like?

Why would this ejit upset the apple cart. Does the minister work for EMI or IRL?????

Its about Tax revenue as far as he is concerned, I would imagine. I am sure he is justifying this by saying that he needs to protect private corporations operating in Ireland and also protect the income that the government should be receiving. But the end result is that we get the shaft

44leto · 21-01-2012 4:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm aware that amazon pays VAT, the point I was making is that the Irish government is losing VAT on music sales not because of piracy but rather due to the changing manner through which people get their music. iTunes, amazon, play, etc all offer digital downloads and it's a thriving service used by many Irish people. Tape killed vinyl, CD killed tape and digital downloads will kill CD. It's the natural order of things, that record companies are do reluctant to embrace the technology is their failing.

As for video stores closing down, it's the same thing. Why pay 5 or 5 euro to rent a film when you can buy it in HMV or online for a fiver in a months time. Digital downloads of films and TV shows is booming, who wants to pay 20 euro to buy a new release DVD when for half that you purchase the digital version or rent it for 3-4 euro and not have to worry about heading out and returning it the next day.

Do you think that legal streaming services should be cracked down on to save video stores and ensure higher VAT is collected? I'm about to watch Gnomeo and Juliet with my girlfriend, to rent it on DVD would be 4 euro and to buy it 10 euro at least but thanks to Netflix I can watch it and thousands others for 7 euro a month. Any wonder traditional avenues of acquiring content are dieing

Why indeed why pay them anything when their competition is free. I have also downloaded my first book, free, I am a big book buyer and i know file sharing yada yada. So yes the market for media is changing but that still is a revenue to someone somewhere. Piracy is getting that content for free.

As for an earlier poster about not paying the VAT and that money goes on VAT someplace else.

I am self employed so if I don't pay my taxes could I say to the taxman, its OK that money I didn't pay went to taxes somewhere else. An interesting defense to say the least.

As I type this Download complete, "In Time" a sci fi thing it might be good.

21-01-2012 4:25pm

Dara Robinson wrote: »

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Aren't we basing our recovery on companies like Google, Facebook and the like?

Why would this ejit upset the apple cart. Does the minister work for EMI or IRL?????

Its about Tax revenue as far as he is concerned, I would imagine. I am sure he is justifying this by saying that he needs to protect private corporations operating in Ireland and also protect the income that the government should be receiving. But the end result is that we get the shaft

If it really was about protecting income streams then he should be leaning on the record companies to set up a digital download service. What he's doing is bending over backward to try and protect an antiquated distribution system. It's just another example of big business dictating to the government and will in the long term only damage the country further.

No major Internet/technology company will set up in a country where a tiny group of business can have websites taken down at will. What's to stop EMI having a website/blog with a negative review of one of their acts taken because a picture of the artist/album cover is above the review.

squod · 21-01-2012 4:37pm

Isn't the next generation of Windows based on this kind of technology? Seriously if people can't fileshare how the fuhk are end user meant to move their content around with them?

Window 8 lets the user transport their desktop and migrate files onto what ever machine or portable device they want. Cloud computing is relying an crap like this SOPA law to be kicked into touch.

The minister is taking sides and it's not your side he's taking. More jobs for Iceland while Ireland is sending 120,000 people a year off to find work in other countries.

What a cnut.

amacachi · 21-01-2012 4:38pm

44leto wrote: »

I am self employed so if I don't pay my taxes could I say to the taxman, its OK that money I didn't pay went to taxes somewhere else. An interesting defense to say the least.

It's not a legal defence, the point is that the argument that tax revenue is lost is just bull****.

21-01-2012 4:42pm

44leto wrote: »

Why indeed why pay them anything when their competition is free. I have also downloaded my first book, free, I am a big book buyer and i know file sharing yada yada. So yes the market for media is changing but that still is a revenue to someone somewhere. Piracy is getting that content for free.

As for an earlier poster about not paying the VAT and that money goes on VAT someplace else.

I am self employed so if I don't pay my taxes could I say to the taxman, its OK that money I didn't pay went to taxes somewhere else. An interesting defense to say the least.

As I type this Download complete, "In Time" a sci fi thing it might be good.

You're missing the point and talking complete crap. I posted a link earlier on linking to an article which points out that in the US the increase in legally purchased digital downloads of albums was more than the decline in physical Album sales. Says it all really.

What that shows is that distribution methods are changing but people are still paying for what they get.

I got a kindle for Christmas, what it means is that I'm actually going to buy far more books than before. Why? Simple really, a book on the kindle is half the price if a traditional book and is far more convenient to get my hands in.

Just because you make up part of the tiny percent of people who actively steal all their media does not mean that the rest of ate do inclined. Most people who pirate all their films/music/books would never pay for the same content legally. I'm not getting on a high horse or anything, I do download stuff but If I download a film and like it then I'll pick it up on DVD or Blu-Ray at some stage.

I don't get your VAT analogy, are you referring to buying digital downloads from outside ireland and out government losing out. If that's the case then let the government put pressure on the record companies to set up an Irish service offering digital downloads. It's amazing that for hundreds of years there was only one way to get a book but with the invention of Ereaders the climate has changed. What did publishers do? Did they cry about piracy and try to protect traditional publishing methods. No they got behind devices such as the kindle and made their content available at a reasonable price all around the world and as such sales of books are way up.

The record companies are relying on outbid date business models and need to embrace digital availability of products.

44leto · 21-01-2012 4:43pm

amacachi wrote: »

It's not a legal defence, the point is that the argument that tax revenue is lost is just bull****.

How is it bull, what if I start buying say smuggled cigarettes. The government would lose the duty but I will be spending that extra money I have elsewhere.

amacachi · 21-01-2012 4:47pm

44leto wrote: »

How is it bull, what if I start buying say smuggled cigarettes. The government would lose the duty but I will be spending that extra money I have elsewhere.

Surely with the savings you make by pirating you'd be more likely to be able to afford legal cigarettes? I already said that only hoarding money or spending it on UTC stuff would be the way there'd be a loss of tax revenue.

44leto · 21-01-2012 4:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You're missing the point and talking complete crap. I posted a link earlier on linking to an article which points out that in the US the increase in legally purchased digital downloads of albums was more than the decline in physical Album sales. Says it all really.

What that shows is that distribution methods are changing but people are still paying for what they get.

I got a kindle for Christmas, what it means is that I'm actually going to buy far more books than before. Why? Simple really, a book on the kindle is half the price if a traditional book and is far more convenient to get my hands in.

Just because you make up part of the tiny percent of people who actively steal all their media does not mean that the rest of ate do inclined. Most people who pirate all their films/music/books would never pay for the same content legally. I'm not getting on a high horse or anything, I do download stuff but If I download a film and like it then I'll pick it up on DVD or Blu-Ray at some stage.

I don't get your VAT analogy, are you referring to buying digital downloads from outside ireland and out government losing out. If that's the case then let the government put pressure on the record companies to set up an Irish service offering digital downloads. It's amazing that for hundreds of years there was only one way to get a book but with the invention of Ereaders the climate has changed. What did publishers do? Did they cry about piracy and try to protect traditional publishing methods. No they got behind devices such as the kindle and made their content available at a reasonable price all around the world and as such sales of books are way up.

The record companies are relying on outbid date business models and need to embrace digital availability of products.

Well I got a sony reader and I am never going to pay for a book again, unless they somehow stop me from pirating. And if you like to pay for your media why download at all.

As I said I know it is wrong and I don't even attempt to justify it.

21-01-2012 4:48pm

44leto wrote: »

amacachi wrote: »

It's not a legal defence, the point is that the argument that tax revenue is lost is just bull****.

How is it bull, what if I start buying say smuggled cigarettes. The government would lose the duty but I will be spending that extra money I have elsewhere.

Your point is invalid. CD sales are falling but legally purchased digital downloads are growing. The money is being spent on the same content just through a different distribution system.

If cigarettes where made available legally from a new more convienent to the customer delivery system at a lower price do you think that the falling sales figured in shops would mean that it was due to smuggling?

44leto · 21-01-2012 5:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Your point is invalid. CD sales are falling but legally purchased digital downloads are growing. The money is being spent on the same content just through a different distribution system.

If cigarettes where made available legally from a new more convienent to the customer delivery system at a lower price do you think that the falling sales figured in shops would mean that it was due to smuggling?

I doubt the total volume of the media sales is growing, let look at the share price trend of the recording industry. Piracy is definitely growing.

But I can give you one concrete and personal fact, I am buying less media, a hell of a lot less then i did 6 months ago. I have not been in a record store or a video rental place since i start pirating and that is about 5 months now.

And now I am downloading books and even talking books. So 6 months from now I can say with confidence I am not going to grace a bookshop with my presence in that period,

amacachi · 21-01-2012 5:05pm

44leto wrote: »

I doubt the total volume of the media sales is growing, let look at the share price trend of the recording industry. Piracy is definitely growing.

But I can give you one concrete and personal fact, I am buying less media, a hell of a lot less then i did 6 months ago. I have not been in a record store or a video rental place since i start pirating and that is about 5 months now.

And now I am downloading books and even talking books. So 6 months from now I can say with confidence I am not going to grace a bookshop with my presence in that period,

That's you, my media buying has increased pretty much linearly through my life and I see that continuing. Most of what I buy is stuff that I already have and most of what I intend to buy is stuff I already have. One example is DVDs of Community, it's not on TV here but due to piracy I'll soon be buying the DVDs. I doubt I would've gone to many of the live music gigs I went to if someone hadn't pirated them.

Also while "sales" volume may be stagnating I imagine there's a massive amount of that down to spotify and the like. Perfectly legal flat-fee services with millions of subscribers.

21-01-2012 5:24pm

44leto wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Your point is invalid. CD sales are falling but legally purchased digital downloads are growing. The money is being spent on the same content just through a different distribution system.

If cigarettes where made available legally from a new more convienent to the customer delivery system at a lower price do you think that the falling sales figured in shops would mean that it was due to smuggling?

I doubt the total volume of the media sales is growing, let look at the share price trend of the recording industry. Piracy is definitely growing.

But I can give you one concrete and personal fact, I am buying less media, a hell of a lot less then i did 6 months ago. I have not been in a record store or a video rental place since i start pirating and that is about 5 months now.

And now I am downloading books and even talking books. So 6 months from now I can say with confidence I am not going to grace a bookshop with my presence in that period,

Lets go back to my post earlier. Thr increase in sales of full albums through digital downloads made up for the loss in psychical CD sales. Singles and sales of a number of tracks off an album but not the full album have increased considerably. By those figures then yes media sales are growing.

just because you think yourself above paying for media does not mean events you can speak for everyone. There's a word for people who would never pay for a book, album, film and it's scumbag.

Possible Irish SOPA Law? :/

Comments