Running a marathon with no specific trainng

brianon · 13-11-2007 1:32pm #1

Ok. So I have wanted to run a marathon for a few years now. Trained one year for 5 months only to get injured two weeks beforehand

As much as I still want to run a marathon I a) could not go through that training again. b) do not want to do that type of training as I don't think it is what my body needs. I want to be fast over 10 metres, not 10 miles. c) I don't have the time to commit to a marathon specific training schedule.

The training I do now is ...
MEBB (Max Effort Black Box). Crossfit Mon, Wed, Fri. Olympic Weights (Tue, Thurs, Sat). Rest Sun. A bit of indoor soccer and some extra indoor rowing also + bits n' pieces. I am reasonably fit but no commando.

Do people think its possible to run a marathon (the 2008 Connemara marathon) on 6th April 2008 without doing the training for it

?
My plan would be to alter my training ... slightly ... to allow for some more running/distance running and thats it. I reckon I could run for 2 hours if I had to tomorrow but as for 26.2 miles ... no way.

I basically want to get super fit

to the point I could run a marathon without running mega mileage and destroying my knees in the process. Maybe one long run each of 10/12.5/15/17.5/20/22.5 between now and March.

What do people think ?

Cheers,
Brian.

Dragan · 13-11-2007 1:46pm

I reckon it could maybe be done, through the correct manipulation of certain training styles.....however nothing prepares you for an action like doing that action.

Also, and i will lay money on this, if you run a marathon with no previous long distance running under your belt your going to hurt, really bad.

And i mean really, really bad. Also, your injury potential mid event will be through the roof.

justsomebloke · 13-11-2007 1:50pm

I would suggest moving/repost this thread to the marathon / triathlon forum under sports

copacetic · 13-11-2007 1:52pm

why do one if you don't want to/can't do the training? It won't be enjoyable in the least and if you can't get through the training without getting injured you are pretty much certain to get injured on the day of the marathon. The reason there is so much mileage is to support the long runs so you don't get injured during them.

also the conemara is a relatively hard one anyway.

shanksmare · 13-11-2007 1:52pm

brianon wrote: »

I basically want to get super fit to the point I could run a marathon without running mega mileage and destroying my knees in the process.

you are more likely to damage your knees by running one without training correctly.
If you are prepared to do the 6 long runs you mention, why not just do twice this with a a couple of short faster runs each week in between the long runs.

12 weeks of stepping up your long runs should suffice.

Do you just want to get around the disatnce or do you have a time in mind?

Make sure you have a good pair of runners.

g'em · 13-11-2007 1:54pm

jsb wrote: »

I would suggest moving/repost this thread to the marathon / triathlon forum under sports

agreed - hunnymonster it's all yours

brianon · 13-11-2007 3:13pm

copacetic wrote: »

why do one if you don't want to/can't do the training? It won't be enjoyable in the least and if you can't get through the training without getting injured you are pretty much certain to get injured on the day of the marathon. The reason there is so much mileage is to support the long runs so you don't get injured during them.

also the conemara is a relatively hard one anyway.

I have some long distance running experience. I trained a few years back for 5 months and racked up quite a few miles. I got injured close the the marathon with ITBS from I guess too much ... running/training.

My training back then was like 5 runs a week with Sunday being a long distance. Starting from 5 miles to 20 miles.

I don't want to just complete a marathon in any old time. I'd much rather do it in a decent time.

I couldn't face running that mileage again though

I am not saying I want some easy no-running training but I just wonder if allot of the training mileage can be replaced by...other things?

With crossfit I do ALLOT of squats and deadlifts so I should at this stage have strong knee joints and would be confident of not getting injured during a marathon. I would not be so confident if I had to run 30+ miles a week for 12 weeks.

--amadeus-- · 13-11-2007 3:36pm

Cardio fitness and leg strength from weights alone won't get you through a marathon. You will be violating something called teh "specificality of training" which basically states that to do an event you have to mimic that event in training - hence if you want to run then cycling (for example) as training will be of limited benifit as you work different muscles in different ways. Additionally a weights regime may actual hinder your running as it may impare your flexibility, according to Noaks something between 40 and 60% of the power in your stride comes from the elasticity of your muscles and tendons. This elestacity is usually reduced by weights and muscle hypertrophy.

That said there is no reason why a fit individual willing to rack up the long runs you mentioned shouldn't be able to "do" a marathon, but it all depends on how much pain you are willing to put up with. My first I did a couple of 18s and a 20, logged around 30 miles a week for 12 weeks+ and I hips and knees were shot to bits by mile 18 - the accumulated impact on tarmac iis not comfortable and with fewer miles you will hurt a lot sooner. Ease up a little on teh weights, mix in some mid length runs as well as your long ones, maybe look at a bigger mix of cardio cross training than you are now and, aiming for a run / walk, you will reach the end and without killing yourself. Oh and you've picked one of teh toughest marathons in the country as well!

brianon · 13-11-2007 4:02pm

Thanks for the replies guys. Much appreciated.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Additionally a weights regime may actual hinder your running as it may impare your flexibility

My weights regime might not be what you think it is. I don't do like 5 sets of Dumbbell curls, leg curls and bench press. The crossfit stuff is mainly bodyweight exercises.

I think I'll try to come up with some sort of plan and then see how ... feasible
... it is. If I went with a 16 week plan and aimed for two runs a week. Starting at 10 (4 + 6) miles total the first week and gradually increasing to a final week (before a taper) of about 10 miles mid-week + 22 miles on a Sunday.

I am prepared to hurt during the marathon for sure but not prepared to cause some serious damage so will have to think about this some more.

hunnymonster · 13-11-2007 5:17pm

g'em wrote: »

agreed - hunnymonster it's all yours

Thanks babe.

To answer the question, as the others have said

yes it is do-able but yes it will hurt and do damage and you will not do yourself justice.

Take Amadeus for example (I hope he doesn't mind), He was a fit guy with limited mileage done when he ran his first marathon. He did OK. Since then he has gotten more time on his feet and his marathon times have been coming down steadily. He is now threatening to qualify for the Boston marathon which is often considered the measure of a good club standard male runner (women's qualifying times are slower)

I would also advise against Connemara as your race of choice if you are going into it unprepared. The reason being that the first half of that race is flat but the second half is uphill. The gradient isn't nearly as bad as people make out but if you're not a runner, you're going to be tired at that stage and probably enduring a certain amount of cramping. Hills are hard to shuffle up. I would suggest looking at the other early season marathons (e.g. Belfast or Newry in Ireland or something like Seville or Luton abroad)

I should qualify this by saying, I went from complete couch potato to marathon in 12 weeks and my longest run before the marathon was 10 miles on a treadmill. In the race I hurt like hell and after I finished I had to pee like a man because I could not move between the sitting and standing positions easily but it can be done.

brianon · 13-11-2007 5:57pm

hunnymonster wrote: »

Thanks babe.

To answer the question, as the others have said

yes it is do-able but yes it will hurt and do damage and you will not do yourself justice.

Take Amadeus for example (I hope he doesn't mind), He was a fit guy with limited mileage done when he ran his first marathon. He did OK. Since then he has gotten more time on his feet and his marathon times have been coming down steadily. He is now threatening to qualify for the Boston marathon which is often considered the measure of a good club standard male runner (women's qualifying times are slower)

I would also advise against Connemara as your race of choice if you are going into it unprepared. The reason being that the first half of that race is flat but the second half is uphill. The gradient isn't nearly as bad as people make out but if you're not a runner, you're going to be tired at that stage and probably enduring a certain amount of cramping. Hills are hard to shuffle up. I would suggest looking at the other early season marathons (e.g. Belfast or Newry in Ireland or something like Seville or Luton abroad)

I should qualify this by saying, I went from complete couch potato to marathon in 12 weeks and my longest run before the marathon was 10 miles on a treadmill. In the race I hurt like hell and after I finished I had to pee like a man because I could not move between the sitting and standing positions easily but it can be done.

Thanks for the advise. I do want to do myself justice in the race as I can't see the point of just 'completing' by fair means or foul. I want it to be an achievement.

I suppose if I just go with my mix of crossfit & some distance running I will find out if it is working as time progresses.

tbh I am gonna have to have at least 2x20mile rns done before I can run the marathon. If after 3 months I can't complete the 15-20 milers then I know to leave it for now.

Davideac · 21-11-2007 11:15pm

I recently finished the Dublin City Marathon! It was my first Marathon and I was extremely nervous because I didn't do enough training. I would have been fairly fit before I started any training. So, what I did was... Two months before the run I.... N0.1 Gave up Drink (NB) No.2 Ran 4-6 miles every second day No.3 Did long runs most Sundays. My longest run before the event was 14 miles. Everybody said this wasn't enough, but the occasion and the crowd carried me the rest of the way. Also its really important to eat well, you should be sick of pasta. Another thing that drove me was... I did the run for a local charity. I had t-shirts printed up with my name and charity on them and as I ran around the course people were cheering me on. www.flyingcolours.ie were the people who sorted me out with the t-shirts. Other than that all I can say is don't go running a marathon if you haven’t done at least one substantial run. Saying that, Brut force and determination will get you around. The feeling of crossing the line is indescribable!!!! Enjoy it….:)

brianon · 22-11-2007 12:11am

Davideac wrote: »

I recently finished the Dublin City Marathon! It was my first Marathon and I was extremely nervous because I didn't do enough training. I would have been fairly fit before I started any training. So, what I did was... Two months before the run I.... N0.1 Gave up Drink (NB) No.2 Ran 4-6 miles every second day No.3 Did long runs most Sundays. My longest run before the event was 14 miles. Everybody said this wasn't enough, but the occasion and the crowd carried me the rest of the way. Also its really important to eat well, you should be sick of pasta. Another thing that drove me was... I did the run for a local charity. I had t-shirts printed up with my name and charity on them and as I ran around the course people were cheering me on. www.flyingcolours.ie were the people who sorted me out with the t-shirts. Other than that all I can say is don't go running a marathon if you haven’t done at least one substantial run. Saying that, Brut force and determination will get you around. The feeling of crossing the line is indescribable!!!! Enjoy it….:)

Cool. Congrats on ur first marathon.

I've decided on what my training is and have actually started

Basically I will keep my existing crossfit training and do 5 extra runs. Thats it.
5 runs of a decent distance mind. First one was last Saturday. 13.5 miles. So one down and 4 to go. Fingers crossed

Noelisgod · 25-11-2007 3:26pm

If you want to run a marathon you have to train properly and do the miledge or else you will be killed on the race day with pain. Serioulsy dude cop on to yourself before you put yourself in hospital. Thats like me saying I want to go skydiving but not bother taking any lessons/instructions beforehand - :eek:

brianon · 25-11-2007 7:38pm

Noelisgod wrote: »

If you want to run a marathon you have to train properly and do the miledge or else you will be killed on the race day with pain. Serioulsy dude cop on to yourself before you put yourself in hospital. Thats like me saying I want to go skydiving but not bother taking any lessons/instructions beforehand - :eek:

The comparison you are making is way off the mark. I understand what you are saying but the example you use is a little ott. Skydiving I would imagine is far more skill based and I would reckon I could do slightly more damage skydiving than running a marathon. Unless I get a heart attack that is

Look...tbh, I train every day. Crossfit 5 times a week. 3 days a week I row as well as CF.

tbh I am quite confident I can complete in a reasonable time (for myself) this marathon. Actually I think I can run it in a better time than if I trained like I did the last time...5 days of running a week (a mainstream marathon plan).

If after my next run (18miler next month) I find it is not working then I can always review and add in some extra mileage.

I reckon CF is enough though, especially with this added five runs to get my body used to the pounding it will receive on the day.

Serioulsy dude cop on to yourself before you put yourself in hospital.

I am not stupid. I don't intend to turn up on the day and wing it. By the time April comes around I will have put down five (one down already) serious runs. If they go well then I see no reason whatsoever to be fearful of one extra effort.

Odysseus · 25-11-2007 8:11pm

brianon wrote: »

First one was last Saturday. 13.5 miles. So one down and 4 to go. Fingers crossed

Am I correct in thinking that you will only do five runs, no other runs? If so I'm quite interested in the after effects of your first run, how difficult was it? How were you when you finished and the next day? I think your goal is doable but it will hurt. Best of luck with it.

brianon · 25-11-2007 8:35pm

yeah. Five extra runs. I run usually once a month anyway. 5 or 10k usually but that would be it.

After that 13+ miler i was a little stiff but was grand two days later and there were terrible conditions for that one.

--amadeus-- · 26-11-2007 10:23am

While he might have phrased it better I think Noel may have a point. I'm running a marathon in April and I won't be starting my training properly until mid December. After that I will be logging long runs every week until the taper. 5 long runs between now and the Connemarathon is roughly one a month and you won't gain the maximum physiological benifits of teh runs by spacing them so far apart.

Much more of teh marathon is run in the head than novices believe and a strong mental attitude (like the one you are showing) is great and will stand you in good stead. Like Odysseus I am curious as to how well your body will stack up when you suddenly start throwing 18 and 20 mile runs at it.

I'll repeat again that a marathon on minimal preperation is doable. But there is still a minimum that you need to be willing to do and you seem to be (almost deliberatly) breaking every established marathon training principle. While I don't doubt that you are fit I'm not sure you apreciate the unique demands that distance running places on your body - cardio fitness is the least of your worries on the day! Of particular concern is your confidence that you can comlete it in a "resonable" time, a fairly sure sign you will set off to hard early on.

You seem to have decided what you are going to do regardless but if you want to comlete the marathon with a time target in mind and with the majority of your excercise as cross training then I strongly suggest looking at this, it's a plan that has 3 runs a week with the rest of teh training made up of cross training work and is highly reccomended by those who follow it.

brianon · 26-11-2007 11:57am

--amadeus-- wrote: »

While he might have phrased it better I think Noel may have a point. I'm running a marathon in April and I won't be starting my training properly until mid December. After that I will be logging long runs every week until the taper. 5 long runs between now and the Connemarathon is roughly one a month and you won't gain the maximum physiological benifits of teh runs by spacing them so far apart.

Much more of teh marathon is run in the head than novices believe and a strong mental attitude (like the one you are showing) is great and will stand you in good stead. Like Odysseus I am curious as to how well your body will stack up when you suddenly start throwing 18 and 20 mile runs at it.

I'll repeat again that a marathon on minimal preperation is doable. But there is still a minimum that you need to be willing to do and you seem to be (almost deliberatly) breaking every established marathon training principle. While I don't doubt that you are fit I'm not sure you apreciate the unique demands that distance running places on your body - cardio fitness is the least of your worries on the day! Of particular concern is your confidence that you can comlete it in a "resonable" time, a fairly sure sign you will set off to hard early on.

You seem to have decided what you are going to do regardless but if you want to comlete the marathon with a time target in mind and with the majority of your excercise as cross training then I strongly suggest looking at this, it's a plan that has 3 runs a week with the rest of teh training made up of cross training work and is highly reccomended by those who follow it.

Thanks amadeus for the link and the advice.
I do kinda see this as an experiment of sorts.

Remember I have done the long running marathon training before (a few years ago) so I have experience, both in the physical and psychological sense, of what it takes to run a marathon. (even though I got injured a few weeks before that marathon).

I have one long run a month (with one shorter run a month as part of my normal crossfit training).

My next run is this weekend and is 10k as part of my normal training. Two weeks later I will run 18miles. I will have a fair idea how things are progressing after that run. If I feel I need more mileage then I can up the number of runs as I see it.

As for me going out at a fast pace. I am usually the opposite when running a long distance.

Odysseus · 26-11-2007 3:16pm

brianon wrote: »

I do kinda see this as an experiment of sorts.

.

Well if your are going to go for, enjoy the journey;) but as you see it as an experiment would you mind keeping us informed as to how you get on.

I'm interested as I do a lot of training for my events, but make my own plans up. The most I ever run is three times a weeks and that's training for ultras, though I will croos train in Martial Arts/Self defense. Thought I have to say for me it is about the long run time spend on your feet. Cheers

brianon · 26-11-2007 3:31pm

Odysseus wrote: »

Well if your are going to go for, enjoy the journey;) but as you see it as an experiment would you mind keeping us informed as to how you get on.

Will do. I've done up a training plan now that involves a little more running. Two runs every three weeks.
Wk1: Long Run
Wk2: 10k
Wk3: No Run.

Repeated 6 times for a total of Six long runs. Six 10ks (which is close to what I would have run anyway). Thats a total of 113 miles in eighteen weeks for the long runs (15m/17m/19m/20m/22m/20m).

Each long run will be rest day / long run day/ rest day to aid recovery.
Other than that its Crossfit and bit of indoor soccer.

Will keep this thread updated with progress.

If I die during the marathon you can all say a collective "I told him so" and not feel guilty. My treat

--amadeus-- · 26-11-2007 5:24pm

To put that into context I ran roughly 400 miles in the 12 weeks before my first marathon and felt undertrained and had to switch to a run / walk after 18 miles...

Personally I think you're mad but with the length of those long runs it will be doable, if you can manage to make them all. Do check back in here after your next long one. How are you validating the length of your long runs by the way?

brianon · 26-11-2007 10:51pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

How are you validating the length of your long runs by the way?

You mean where am I getting these lengths from ?
Well I would see those distances as being great guidelines as to what I am currently (and as I progress) capable of running.

If I can run those then I would imagine I can run the marathon.

Fast_Mover · 27-11-2007 12:54am

Just came across this thread now..very interesting read/experiment i must say!:D
Will be keeping an eye on progress..

rovers_runner · 27-11-2007 8:58am

brianon wrote: »

Remember I have done the long running marathon training before (a few years ago) so I have experience, both in the physical and psychological sense, of what it takes to run a marathon. (even though I got injured a few weeks before that marathon).

Point is you don't know, and it'll hit hard when you realise at about 20 or 21 miles that your training wasn't sufficient.
I know I've been there and being a slow jogger I'd know the drawbacks of not having enough training done even more than someone fast who is a natural athlete.

You'd want to seriously reasses your plan if you want to make it to the start line, I nearly didn't with a groin problem as I left too much until too late.

brianon · 27-11-2007 11:22am

Thanks again guys for the input/interest. I am interested myself to see how it goes

At this stage I don't want to move too far from my origianl plan and end up running loads of miles 'casue thats what I want to avoid.

Anyway...from talking to some CF guys on the CF forums I've modified my plan like so...
Wk1: Long Run
Wk2: 10k
Wk3: Speed work. 400m/800m sprint/recover repeat etc...

Thats it. Thats final

So 6 longs runs. 6 10ks and 6 speed work sessions.

The 15miler this weekend will reveal some more.

--amadeus-- · 27-11-2007 2:01pm

I meant how do you know how long your long runs are? GPS watch, drive the routes, gmap pedometer?

I'm not sure what CF is (crossfit?) but I would seriously question thier competance in marathon training if they are advising speed work when your objective is to simply finish. Each to thier own obviously but IMO it's a total waste of time and potentially high risk.

Speed work - in particular the sort of training you mention - is designed to boost your VO2 max and allow you to maintain a faster pace for teh same VO2 max %. This is pointless in your case for 2 main reasons. First you are not - according to what you have said - running for speed, simply to complete the marathon. In this case you need endurance and speed work will not help at all. Secondly VO2 max is not a particularly important measure of marathon ability (Pfizer & Douglas, Noakes) so improving your VO2 max will improve your speed over short (ie 10k) distance but will not affect more important physiological factors such as lactate threashold and running economy and so this training will therefore not affect your ability to complete a marathon. Finally speed sessions are very stressful on the body and - of all training sessions - carry the highest injury risk. Running as infrequently as you do your bosd wont - again in my opinion - have the adaptions to cope with intensive speed sessions.

It's your body but if you are going to take advice I would be minded to take it from those with some form of experience.

brianon · 27-11-2007 3:08pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I meant how do you know how long your long runs are? GPS watch, drive the routes, gmap pedometer?

Drive the route and estimate.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'm not sure what CF is (crossfit?) but I would seriously question thier competance in marathon training if they are advising speed work when your objective is to simply finish. Each to thier own obviously but IMO it's a total waste of time and potentially high risk.

I am not saying (nor is any CF individual saying) that this plan is optimal for running a marathon. Thats not the point. What I want to do is...
a) run a marathon in a reasonable time (not just 'complete' one)
b) run as few miles as possible to allow me to achieve 'a'
c) keep up the CrossFit training.
The people in the CF community who have advised me have experience in running a marathon with very very limited mileage. Some less than 50 miles and some with 0 miles in the preceding 3 months.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Speed work - in particular the sort of training you mention - is designed to boost your VO2 max and allow you to maintain a faster pace for teh same VO2 max %. This is pointless in your case for 2 main reasons. First you are not - according to what you have said - running for speed, simply to complete the marathon. In this case you need endurance and speed work will not help at all. Secondly VO2 max is not a particularly important measure of marathon ability (Pfizer & Douglas, Noakes) so improving your VO2 max will improve your speed over short (ie 10k) distance but will not affect more important physiological factors such as lactate threashold and running economy and so this training will therefore not affect your ability to complete a marathon. Finally speed sessions are very stressful on the body and - of all training sessions - carry the highest injury risk. Running as infrequently as you do your bosd wont - again in my opinion - have the adaptions to cope with intensive speed sessions.

It's your body but if you are going to take advice I would be minded to take it from those with some form of experience.

Ok. I am not good with this scientific stuff

but from a recent CF Journal...

If you look at runners who make the transition from 10K to marathon, there is no difference in their VO2 max levels.

Have you ever done a triathlon, or run a 10k (or more) and experienced not a lack of breath (cardiovascular endurance isn’t the limiting factor), but a soreness in the legs or even other muscles? This is a lack of strength, stamina, and conditioning!

I think this will be my problem. I think I have the 'cardiovascular endurance' but possibly the legs will wilt.

Having athletes doing 100+ mile bike rides three to four weeks out from the Ironman World Championships, or doing any highly oxidative training for long periods of time, makes zero sense if the athlete has already developed their ability to use oxygen effectively. The solution is to strength train and make them work at faster than normal speeds (i.e., speed training and intervals), while retaining the ability to recover.

When I talk about strength training, here’s what I mean. Most of the time, we squat every week, doing sets of ten at 80 percent of max, then adding five pounds for eight reps, then adding five pounds for six reps. This usually scares the newbie endurance athletes to death, but they get over it soon because we won’t train them any other way. They learn that the strength training actually speeds up recovery and lets them get back to training much sooner than they thought.

Speaking of recovery, that’s the next limiting factor we have to work on with distance athletes. Most of them are training exclusively in the oxidative pathway, and highly overdoing it at that. Even if you are just training this way, would it not behoove you to have the ability to actually recover from these workouts so that you could actually benefit from them? We make each of our athletes recover to a heart rate of 120 in less than two minutes when doing intervals or hill work. If they can’t recover, then the workout is done. Walk away! When they run pace work, nothing is more than a half marathon so that they have the ability to go out and actually train the next day with purpose.

Again. I am no expert in CF or Marathon running. I can only go on what experience I have and advise I get. I have 'some' marathon experience and a nice bit of CF experience. From that limited pool I believe this plan to be the best that qualifies the conditions I am setting out to meet.

--amadeus-- · 27-11-2007 5:30pm

I'm not doubting the expertise of the CF community within thier own boundaries. Nor am I questioning the fact that marathons can be completed with little or no specific training - from the outset I have said it can be done but will hurt. However in the same way that I could pass comment on a crossfit program based on my marathon training and be part right and a lot wrong so they can pass comment on marathon training and be off teh mark. Simply doing a marathon (even a fast one) doesn't make you an expert in how best to prepare for one. Neither would I claim to be an expert (far from it!!) but I have done a few marathons, learned from my mistakes and read a lot about it.

If you are doing speedwork as part of another training plan then good luck. If you are doing it to help your marathon you are wasting your time. If you were doing a full plan and prepping for your 2nd or 3rd marathon then that's a different thing but on the limited running you are doing the inclusion of speed work is pointless, but again thats just my opinion.

As for your other points:

1 - VO2 max in runners. Are you refereing to general runners or elites? Besides I'm not sure about the relevance? In a 10k you'll be working at 80 - 90% VO2 max and a marathon 65 - 70% so the upper limit will dictate pace rather than endurance. You simply want to complete so any changes you can make to your VO2 max won't really help you.

2 - aerobic endurance. This is what we have all been saying all along. You probably have the fitness but the point of training is to make teh other physiological adaptions that only running can give (specificality of training).

3 - 100+ bike rides. Utter garbage. The training isn't to "develo(p) their ability to use oxygen effectively" it's to make all of teh other physiological adaptations (see point 2).

4 - Weight training. Not sure of teh relevance. Weight training has been proven to have very limited benifits in running (see Noaks "Lore of Running" for an exhaustive list of teh literature). The upshot of it though is that if you add 30 mins weight training to a running program you will improve. However if you just run for an extra 30 mins you'll improve more (I can dig out the relevant scientific papers if you need them)

5 - Recovery. No areguments here, faster recovery = more training = better performance. I'd like to see the documented evidence that strength training specifically speeds recovery in runners though, do you have the source?

brianon · 27-11-2007 6:09pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'm not doubting the expertise of the CF community within thier own boundaries. Nor am I questioning the fact that marathons can be completed with little or no specific training - from the outset I have said it can be done but will hurt. However in the same way that I could pass comment on a crossfit program based on my marathon training and be part right and a lot wrong so they can pass comment on marathon training and be off teh mark. Simply doing a marathon (even a fast one) doesn't make you an expert in how best to prepare for one. Neither would I claim to be an expert (far from it!!) but I have done a few marathons, learned from my mistakes and read a lot about it.

If you are doing speedwork as part of another training plan then good luck. If you are doing it to help your marathon you are wasting your time. If you were doing a full plan and prepping for your 2nd or 3rd marathon then that's a different thing but on the limited running you are doing the inclusion of speed work is pointless, but again thats just my opinion.

First off. I really am not in a position to debate with you on this because I believe you know more about allot of this (VO2max etc...) than I do.

What I will say though

is...

1 - VO2 max in runners. Are you refereing to general runners or elites? Besides I'm not sure about the relevance? In a 10k you'll be working at 80 - 90% VO2 max and a marathon 65 - 70% so the upper limit will dictate pace rather than endurance. You simply want to complete so any changes you can make to your VO2 max won't really help you.

I don't simply want to complete. I want to do it in a decent but realistic time.

2 - aerobic endurance. This is what we have all been saying all along. You probably have the fitness but the point of training is to make teh other physiological adaptions that only running can give (specificality of training).

'I' think that one of the biggest physiological adaptations to be made is to that of the constant pounding that the legs, knees, ankles will take. I believe some of this adaptation can be catered for through CF workouts. Including Squats, Deadlifts, Box Jumps etc... The rest will occur during the limited (that includes some substantial runs) running.

We agree on point 5

As for Points 3/4. The material I am referencing is written by this guy...

Brian MacKenzie is an expert in strength training for endurance athletes as well as a coach for Multisports Orange County. He currently holds a double certification through the International Sports Sciences Association (ISSA, CFT, and SSC) and is a level-2 POSE-certified running coach. In addition to owning CrossFit Newport Beach/Genetic Potential, Brian founded and operates one of the only internship programs for professional trainers in California.

I can PM you the article if you want. Its not a free journal so I'd prefer not to post it here in full.

I am not trying to make an argument for one training method over another. I think my training plan is right for me but I am always open minded as I really have no expertise in either CF or endurance running.

I will learn pretty quickly if what I am doing is going to work

--amadeus-- · 27-11-2007 7:29pm

The reason I was asking about sources is that the general fitness community often spout advice about running in general and marathons in particular that is so far wrong it's dangerous (one gym in Limerick offered advice to me that verged on the suicidal before the "expert" asked "just how far is the marathon anyway...?"!!) I just wanted to check that the people you were getting advice from weren't just the usual internet know it alls (unlike me

)

I'll stand over what I said, you'll do it but you'll hurt and the adaptions from your strength and cross training may help but will not compensate fully. The real test is your 16+ mile runs.

Looking forward to teh progress reports!

brianon · 27-11-2007 9:52pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

The reason I was asking about sources is that the general fitness community often spout advice about running in general and marathons in particular that is so far wrong it's dangerous (one gym in Limerick offered advice to me that verged on the suicidal before the "expert" asked "just how far is the marathon anyway...?"!!) I just wanted to check that the people you were getting advice from weren't just the usual internet know it alls (unlike me )

I'll stand over what I said, you'll do it but you'll hurt and the adaptions from your strength and cross training may help but will not compensate fully. The real test is your 16+ mile runs.

Looking forward to teh progress reports!

Thanks for the comments and advise. All very much appreciated.

I'll keep the thread posted as I progress (or not!)

Do they have internet access in hospitals these days

ecoli · 27-11-2007 10:09pm

i would say dont go for huge mileage but ya still gotta get a bit in an hour runs but in terms nf fitness i have found that circuits can benefit runners tremendously so i say twice to three times a week maximum effort on them plus cross trainers are good way to build running fitness and also save your knees(just ask mottram) lol hope this helps

brianon · 28-11-2007 12:21am

ecoli wrote: »

i would say dont go for huge mileage but ya still gotta get a bit in an hour runs but in terms nf fitness i have found that circuits can benefit runners tremendously so i say twice to three times a week maximum effort on them plus cross trainers are good way to build running fitness and also save your knees(just ask mottram) lol hope this helps

Thanks for the reply. I will be doing some 400m/800m near max effort etc... but only once every 3 weeks.

The rest of the training will be all Crossfit. So tonight my workout was (taken from crossfit.ie)...
21-15-9 (reps)
Burpee Pull Ups
Kettlebell Swing (24Kg)

took 9:30 minutes.

Tomorrow will be another CF and the same again Thursday. Some indoor rowing in between. Will rest Friday. Run 15miles Saturday and rest Sunday after the run.
Mondays CF will be a single lift day probably Squats 7 single reps at max effort. Of course that'll include a warmup.

The crosstrainer is not something I'd be that fond of. I have used them but not enjoyed them. Not a member of a gym anymore anyway.

--amadeus-- · 29-11-2007 12:21am

brianon wrote: »

...took 9:30 minutes...

Do you mean your entire workout was over in less than 10 mins?

Just out of curiosity what is your resting heart rate? How fast did you complete your 13 miler and what is your target time for the marathon?

brianon · 29-11-2007 10:58am

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Do you mean your entire workout was over in less than 10 mins?

Yeah. 10 minutes. Well the warm up can take 10+ minutes also.
Most CF WODS (Workout of the Day) would be in the 12-25 minute range. (depends on your ability) and how much pain you want on any given day. That WOD was a quick WOD compared to others. I plan on doing a 'Filthy Fifty'

next week which is 50 reps of 10 different exercises and not star jumps either

That could take near an hour so it can vary quite a bit. Other days then it could be just your seven times max 1 rep deadlift. Of course there would be quite a few warm up lifts to get to your max so its not just 7 lifts in total for rthe workout.

How fast did you complete your 13 miler and what is your target time for the marathon?

The 13 miler took 1:53. It was actually more like 13.4 miles. But who's counting? Well I am

Normally when I do run I would always push the last mile/finish to get as good a time as I can but on this occasion I made a point of not doing that as I wanted it to be more a snapshot of where I'd be at 13 miles and as such was not looking for the best half marathon time I could manage.

My target would be sub 4 hour (3:59 would be good) because it is Connemara but if it was a less tough one I'd be hoping for 3:45.

Just out of curiosity what is your resting heart rate?

My resting heart rate? Eh...Well sitting at my desk here I counted for 1 minute and it was 50 on the button.

brianon · 03-12-2007 11:46am

Right. I ran the 16.7 miler on Saturday morning. Conditions were ... cold, windy and a bit wet. It took me 2:29.49.

The first 5/6 miles were ok. The next 5/6 were great. The next 2/3 were ok. The last 2/3 were tough.

Happy enough with the run. My legs (especially the knees) were sore afterwards but by Sunday they weren't too bad and the body felt a good bit better after this run than it did two weeks previous after the 13 miler.

About 6 miles in my right foot started to cut up cause a) I should have cut my toe nails before the run and b) I used different runners and didn't tie the right foot up tight enough. That didn't help.

Had my life depended on it

I could have knocked off a few more miles but to complete a marathon that day I would have had to employ a run/walk to finish the last 10 miles.

So with four months left I am pretty happy to have run 16.7 miles on Saturday and back training with a CF WOD last night and a bit this morning.

The next long run is in just under three weeks time (will run a fast paced 10k this weekend) will be around 18 miles so again I will know more as to how the body is adapting...(if at all).

--amadeus-- · 03-12-2007 6:44pm

Did you record mile splits? You averaged 9 min/miles but it would be interesting to see if you started at 8:30 and ended up at 10 or 11's - you will certainly have slowed and the amount you slowed by would be a good indicator of your actual fitness. Also how did you fuel the run?

That said - and at the risk of sounding defeatist - I'd be a lot less confident after this run than your last one.

Long runs are anything from 15 miles and up so a 16.7 is only just into long run territory. Once you made it up towards long run range (last 2 - 3 miles) the pain began, which is something we have all been predicting. In particular the knee and any other joint pain is because you haven't built the miles gradualy so your connective tissue has not had a chance to adapt. With such infrequent stimuli (one long run every 3 weeks) it won't signifigantly adapt between now and the race so I would expect you to feel pretty much the same on race day as you did at the end of this run. You said that you would only have been able to run another two or three miles - what was the limiting factor, muscle fatigue? Joint pain? Somethig else?

At this point in time I would strongly advise you to have a serious think about why you are doing this. If a marathon is a lifelong ambition then isn't it worth the respect of training properly for? After all it's only 12 weeks of your life and nothing worth having is effortless.

If you don't want to train in the traditional manner then I really think you only have two choices. Drop the idea altogether or adopt a run / walk from the start because (hostage to fortune here!) if you continue on your current plan there is no way you will be able to run teh entire marathon.

I'd be interested to hear what other runners think - am I being overly pessimistic?

brianon · 03-12-2007 11:07pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Not mile spits as such no.

I know when I had 5 miles done, half way(ish) and also 5 miles left.

At each point I predicted (based on my time/pace at that point) a finish of 2:30 and thats exactly how it finished so I don't think I slowed up much if at all.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Also how did you fuel the run?

I just brought a bottle of lucozade sport (watered down slightly) but I hate running with a bottle and it definitely had a negative effect on the run.

Long runs are anything from 15 miles and up so a 16.7 is only just into long run territory. Once you made it up towards long run range (last 2 - 3 miles) the pain began, which is something we have all been predicting. In particular the knee and any other joint pain is because you haven't built the miles gradualy so your connective tissue has not had a chance to adapt. With such infrequent stimuli (one long run every 3 weeks) it won't signifigantly adapt between now and the race so I would expect you to feel pretty much the same on race day as you did at the end of this run. You said that you would only have been able to run another two or three miles - what was the limiting factor, muscle fatigue? Joint pain? Somethig else?

Well I reckoned there would be pain also but its not like I was walking or limping home. Without disregarding what you are saying I will say this...the cut toe had a negative effect on my running stride, carrying the bottle also and the runners, which I knew beforehand weren't suited for the long run but I persisted anyway as I used to rotate runners when I trained for the marathon back in '03. I think these were factors in the 'pain' but in saying that I wasn't in agony or anything..

About 10 miles intot he 13 miler a few weeks ago both ankles/shins seemed to experience a loss of control from the pounding on the pavement to the point where I was just kinda throwing one leg in front of the other by the end.

On this run after about 10 miles my left leg started to feel like this but only barely and it never got any worse. The right leg was fine all the time. I would consider that an improvement.

As for the knees. 16.7 miles on a road is a long way. No its not a marathon but as you've said my body is having to adapt ... and quickly

Again, i was still jogging to the end and I wasn't in 'that' much pain.

I know I will feel discomfort both on the training runs and on the marathon itself but I DO think that this run shows me it is possible.

At this point in time I would strongly advise you to have a serious think about why you are doing this. If a marathon is a lifelong ambition then isn't it worth the respect of training properly for? After all it's only 12 weeks of your life and nothing worth having is effortless.

Its not a lifelong ambition at all and I AM giving it my respect. I believe that Crossfit is such a great way to train that I can use it as the basis for my training to run a marathon. 12 weeks of my life ? It doesn't appeal to me at all to go running anymore than once a week/fortnight. Maybe this is coming across as someone who wants something but doesn't want to work at all to get it. Not the case.

I train 6 times a week...and then some. Don't think I am some elite athlete. I am just a joe soap.

I am very very curious to see if I can do it. If it doesn't work out then so be it. I have already proven I can at least step outside and run considerable distances without hardly running at all. Just using Crossfit.

I trained for 4 months in '03. Was 28 years old. Weighed 2 stone lighter. Ran 4/5 days a week and never managed more than 15 miles. Eventually my legs were knackered and no amount of physio could get me to run for more than 10 minutes so had to give up that dream of a marathon.

I have been using Crossfit for 5 months now (stopped training completely for 6 months previously when my daughter was born in November '06) and can now with 100% confidence say that I could head out tomorrow and beat any distance/time I put down in '03.

There is a short run I have used for fast running back in '03 and a few times this year. My best time for the 2.7 miles course in '03 was 19:10. Two months ago I ran it in 17:30

I'd be interested to hear what other runners think - am I being overly pessimistic?

Pessimistic? Not at all. Its your opinion and you very may well be correct. We shall see

Karmafaerie · 28-12-2007 1:44pm

Well like Daveac, I ran my first marathon in Dublin this year too.
I did pretty much no trainng at all, I mean seriously, next to nothing!
I only went for about 5 runs to train for it, and the most I ever ran before it was about 4 miles!

Basically, I was stupid as fu€k!!!
Still though, it was one of the best experiences of my life.
I finished in 4:15 and was over the moon with that!

I've already signed up for the Paris marathon in April, and will be going to New York next year too.
I'm hoping to get my time down to under 3:30 in Paris, and to push for under 3 hours in New York!
I'm training a bit this time, but so I've learned my lesson, but still, to answer your question, I'm proof that you can do it!;):D

Racing Flat · 28-12-2007 2:53pm

In the world today people want everything whenever they want it...The desire to 'do a marathon' but not do the training is such an example. A marathon isn't a 26mile run you do in a day but a few months or more of running a few or more times a week. That's why it's such a great achievement. Anyone could go out and do a marathon right now without any training at all. Go out and walk for 26miles, take breaks if you need to and anyone could get it done in ? 6 - 8 hours. In some ways a good achievement but IMHO ANYONE could do that. The real achievemnt as I see it is to commit yourself to a training plan (and don't just change this every few weeks!), do the training and then do the marathon, and hopefully even run the whole way - that's what a marathon was set out to be originally, and then you can tell yourself and others 'I've done a marathon' meaning that you've run continuously for 26miles and you were ablew to do this because you put the training in'. And you'll feel great. If your car broke down and you didn't have a phone and you had to walk/run 26miles to get to the nearest garage, would you feel like you'd achieved something great? Probably not, but then I'm a purist...!
My advice would be get down to a running club, talk to the people there who've done marathons, join in a few runs with them and I bet you'll start to enjoy the training and then keep it up for the 12 weeks or so.
Best of luck whatever you decide.

thirtyfoot · 28-12-2007 3:35pm

brianon wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I will be doing some 400m/800m near max effort etc... but only once every 3 weeks.

.

Can I ask why are you doing these 400/800 all outs if you are training for a marathon? How many do you do? What times are you hitting and what recoveries are you taking? On the face of it this session doesn't make any sense whatsoever and seems a waste of a session. Are you doing as a fitness/progress gauge, all out 400/800's are bloody hard work if you aren't conditioned and prepared for them.

Racing Flat · 28-12-2007 6:16pm

In my experience of people whp did marathons on scant training, it usually ends up in a bit of a disaster. One example is a friend who was very fit - played soccer at a high level, surfed at international level. So he used to run about 4 times a week for fitness, and always did 5 miles in 35minutes, so not that shabby when only training and not being a runner. Anyway one day a friend asked him for a lift to Lisburn as he was going to do the half marathon there but his own car was out of action. The surfer gave him the lift and when he got there decided to run it aswell himself. He did well. 90mins for a first ever half marathon, and although he was fast and fit, he had done no long runs. The outcome was, ever since he gets severe knee pain after running 30mins so can never run longer than that. And that was only a half marathon. The problem with long distance running is that your bones and joints endure an awful lot of stress with every step and the more steps you take the more stress as there is almost a drying out effect in cartilage. Therefore the body needs to be prepared for it, the cartilage needs to be trained to sustain these forces, and it can be trained by gradually building up the mileage, over a period of time.

Other people I know who've never ran before then train diligently for 4 months and complete the marathon - but often they never run again, and IMO the sudden intensity of training and huge mental effort takes its toll and puts them off. If I was to advise someone completely new to running I would say give yourslef a year to prepare for the marathon - 6-8months of just gentle jogging, getting used to it and then 4 months of actual training. Lots of plans out there but I find those by Brendan O'Shea published in Irish Runner very good. Straightforward anyway.

I know there are some people e.g. Karmafaerie above, who can do the marathon on scant training, enjoy it, get away with it and continue running afterwards. But it's not easy to do a marathon and less easy to do a good one and I would hope impossible to do a good one on scant training.

eclectichoney · 28-12-2007 6:36pm

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Well like Daveac, I ran my first marathon in Dublin this year too.
I did pretty much no trainng at all, I mean seriously, next to nothing!
I only went for about 5 runs to train for it, and the most I ever ran before it was about 4 miles!

I finished in 4:15 and was over the moon with that!

Oh my. I started running in September (from nothing, though I had been going to the gym a bit and doing other forms of cardio /weights) and am now up to about 10k on my long run (great I know

) and could never imagine running a marathon in the short term from where I am now. Just how did you manage it? I'm in total awe. There is no way I could run for 26 miles tomorrow no matter how hard I tried.

I am half thinking of doing the Dublin marathon in 08 but for the moment I am just enjoying my running, and if it takes another year or so, so be it. But there is some serious inspiration in this thread for the likes of me!

brianon · 30-12-2007 2:49am

Tingle wrote: »

Can I ask why are you doing these 400/800 all outs if you are training for a marathon? How many do you do? What times are you hitting and what recoveries are you taking? On the face of it this session doesn't make any sense whatsoever and seems a waste of a session. Are you doing as a fitness/progress gauge, all out 400/800's are bloody hard work if you aren't conditioned and prepared for them.

Doesn't make any sense ? Why not ?
http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/advancedint.htm

Interval Training: In training for a marathon, long repeats (800, 1600, or even longer) generally work better than short repeats (200, 400). I've prescribed 800 repeats for this program, done every third week on Tuesdays for Advanced-II runners, every fourth week on Thursdays for Advanced-I runners. Run an 800 at faster-than-marathon pace, rest by jogging and/or walking 400, then start again. Further instructions are included in the weekly screens, but you might want to consider running these like "Yasso Repeats." Regular readers of Runner's World are familiar with what I mean. Bart Yasso is Promotions Director for the magazine. Bart suggests that you run your 800 repeats using the same numbers as your marathon time. In other words, if you run a 3-hour marathon, you do the 800s in 3 minutes. A 3:10 marathoner does 3:10 repeats; 3:20 marathoner, 3:20 repeats, etc. It seems silly, but it works. Note: Just because you can run 10 x 800 in 3:10, there is no guarantee that you can run 3:10 in the marathon. It works the other way around: If you can run a 3:10 marathon, you probably can do that workout without straining too
much.

Racing Flat wrote:

In the world today people want everything whenever they want it...The desire to 'do a marathon' but not do the training is such an example. A marathon isn't a 26mile run you do in a day but a few months or more of running a few or more times a week. That's why it's such a great achievement. Anyone could go out and do a marathon right now without any training at all. Go out and walk for 26miles, take breaks if you need to and anyone could get it done in ? 6 - 8 hours. In some ways a good achievement but IMHO ANYONE could do that. The real achievemnt as I see it is to commit yourself to a training plan (and don't just change this every few weeks!), do the training and then do the marathon, and hopefully even run the whole way - that's what a marathon was set out to be originally, and then you can tell yourself and others 'I've done a marathon' meaning that you've run continuously for 26miles and you were ablew to do this because you put the training in'. And you'll feel great. If your car broke down and you didn't have a phone and you had to walk/run 26miles to get to the nearest garage, would you feel like you'd achieved something great? Probably not, but then I'm a purist...!
My advice would be get down to a running club, talk to the people there who've done marathons, join in a few runs with them and I bet you'll start to enjoy the training and then keep it up for the 12 weeks or so.
Best of luck whatever you decide.

Not sure if this is directed at the OP (Me) but anyway. I train with Crossfit 5/6 days a week to be as fit as I can be. I want to be fit enough to be capable of running 26.2 miles in a decent time. I think I can achieve this with relatively little specific marathon training i.e. running.
Not looking for the easy option at all. I don't enjoy constant running all that much but I do enjoy the 'odd' run. I found my training for the Dublin '03 marathon to be incredibly boring. The benifits of a Crossfit style plan I think are far more benificial to that of any marathon training plan.

Anyway, progress report

After my 16.7 miler I injured my foot playing indoor soccer so haven't run until this week. Ran a 3.4 miler on Thursday just to test it out and ran 11.4 today. All good

Will get back on track now but have missed probably 1 long run from my schedule of 6.

thirtyfoot · 30-12-2007 11:12am

brianon wrote: »

Doesn't make any sense ? Why not ?
http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/advancedint.htm

.

Now thats hardly 400/800 at near max effort. Higdon's 400/800/1500 are speedwork geared towards distance training as the pace is quite steady, eg, 3:00 min 800 for a 3 hour marathon man. As he says "you can probably do that session without straining too much". Believe me, if you did a 400/800 interval session at near max effort, you'd know about it and you'd be straining quite a lot.

Its fine, your interval session is grand if you are following pace and timings as outlined below, buts its not near maximal effort as thats a totally different kettle of fish. Its just your description using near max effort threw me off.

thirtyfoot · 30-12-2007 11:28am

brianon wrote: »

I want to be fit enough to be capable of running 26.2 miles in a decent time. .

Are you hoping to go sub 3 with that training schedule?

Racing Flat · 30-12-2007 1:22pm

brianon wrote: »

Not sure if this is directed at the OP (Me) but anyway. I train with Crossfit 5/6 days a week to be as fit as I can be. I want to be fit enough to be capable of running 26.2 miles in a decent time. I think I can achieve this with relatively little specific marathon training i.e. running.
Not looking for the easy option at all. I don't enjoy constant running all that much but I do enjoy the 'odd' run. I found my training for the Dublin '03 marathon to be incredibly boring. The benifits of a Crossfit style plan I think are far more benificial to that of any marathon training plan.

After my 16.7 miler I injured my foot playing indoor soccer so haven't run until this week. Ran a 3.4 miler on Thursday just to test it out and ran 11.4 today. All good

Will get back on track now but have missed probably 1 long run from my schedule of 6.

Fair enough, maybe you're not going for the easy option as you are training very hard at Crossfit. But if you hated the training in 03 so much why want to do a marathon? As I said, in my view, a marthon should be a 4 month as opposed to a 1 day achievement. So from that point of view I thought maybe you were looking for an easy option of doing a good marathon...So if not, then maybe it's the specificty of training that you are getting wrong, mentioned above somewhere. To get your good time and avoid injury you need to do the training for the specific event - ie run regularly. I don't know what cross fit is, but if there was a cross fit competition in March and I posted a thread saying 'I want to do the competition and get a good result, but don't really want to do that training, as I hated it the last time. My plan is to run 6 days a week and just do 6 hard cross fit training sessions between now and March' do you think it would be a) me looking for an easy option b) advisable c) possible to get a good result???
How did you get the foot injury - maybe total coincidence, but perhaps if your body was tired after the long run, or it is not used to the long runs, this made you more predisposed to the foot injury?

Also, another problem with doing such a sparse training schedule, is that if you miss any session at all, it has a much greater effect - ie if you've missed 1/6 sessions, that's 16odd%. If someone runs 6 days a week for 20 weeks, 120 sessions, much easier to make up for the odd missed sessions.

Hope this doesn't sound too critical, only based on experience of friends whose future sporting career has been affected by not giving marathons and half marathons enough respect.

Racing Flat · 30-12-2007 4:00pm

More examples...

know a fellow, very good hurler, played Senior club hurling in cork with a strong team, wouldn't have been a million miles from the Cork senior team (about 10 years ago). He was out at the Jazz festival in Cork, Reardons where else, bumped into an old friend who wasn't drinking - asked him why, said he was running in marathon 2 days later. Hurler, drunk said he'd do it with him, woke up next day, felt he had to go ahead with it. Was very fit considering the hurling training, but did not have any specific long distance running training done. Got a number from someone who couldn't run and did a great first half but finished in just under 6 hours, dying. After the drive back to Cork he had to be lifted from the car, parents had to make up a bed downstairs and he was stuck in a chair shaped position for 24 hours he had stiffened up so much. Now he's delighted to have done the marathon, but struggled with injuries ever since, never reached the same heights at hurling again, and I think it's because of the damage done to an unprepared body during the marathon but would be hard to prove in court...

Also, 2 good club rugby players, playing for Sunday's Well in Cork, scrum-half and out-half/full-back so small/fast enough as rugby players go. Decided to do Ballycotton 10mile road race a year or two ago. Race in March so by that stage of season they would be well fit, with specific cardiovascular and strengthening training programmes. I don't know how much effort they put in, but they did about 80mins. A good run, but at that pace would be 3.5 hours for marathon, but as they would be unlikely to hold that 10mile pace for 26miles I imagine they would be closer to 4 hours. Not bad, but considering how fit they are at rugby, they would be capable of much better with specific training.

Similarly a few years ago Damien Duff did the 5mile adidas race in Phoenix Park. Ran around 33mins, not bad, 6.40/mile, but there were probably a few hundred amateurs in front of him including plenty veteran and female runners. Again, I don't know how much effort he put in, but considering the amount of training he must do and the good nutrition/diet, time to rest etc. he would be capable of much better. If it was a series of a few hundred 20meter sprints over a 90min period I bet he's have beaten all of us;).

Speaking of sports stars doing running races - there was talk of Colin Corkery and Sean Og O hAilpin doing the marathon over the last few years - anyone know if they did and if so how they did?

Karmafaerie · 03-01-2008 11:07am

eclectichoney wrote: »

Oh my. I started running in September (from nothing, though I had been going to the gym a bit and doing other forms of cardio /weights) and am now up to about 10k on my long run (great I know ) and could never imagine running a marathon in the short term from where I am now. Just how did you manage it? I'm in total awe. There is no way I could run for 26 miles tomorrow no matter how hard I tried.

I am half thinking of doing the Dublin marathon in 08 but for the moment I am just enjoying my running, and if it takes another year or so, so be it. But there is some serious inspiration in this thread for the likes of me!

To be honest I don't know how I did it.
It was all the adrelaline.
I was 12 miles in before I felt anything.
Even now in training for Paris, I can't run anything like that.
As soon as you start, all the crouds clapping, and the other people running with you, just gee you on.

--amadeus-- · 03-01-2008 12:18pm

brianon wrote: »

Doesn't make any sense ? Why not ?
http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/advancedint.htm

From the link and intro to the plan you quoted:

If this is your first marathon, regardless of your talent, consider following the Novice program and simply set as your goal finishing, rather than finishing fast. See you a couple of marathons from now. If you haven't done the various types of speedwork included in this program, it's also Bye Bye. You do not want to begin speedwork in a marathon program if you have not done it before. (Hal Higdon is a very experienced coach, has completed well over 100 marathons and has a PB is the low 2:20's or better so he does know what he's talking about)

Running 400/800m reps as part of your training is both pointless (you will derive no marathon running benifit from it) and dangerous (you run an increased chance of injury in sessions of this type).

If your goal is simply to get round, enjoy the atmosphere and say "I did a marathon" then by all means carry on as you are (tho' without the reps!). Putting time pressure on yourself and thinking that you can run a competitive race (competitive relative to your own abilities, whatever standard they may be) is a very high risk strategy.

I think the core here is that you are confusing generic fitness with marathon training. I am sure that with your "crossfit" training you are probably fitter than me, or some of teh other runners on here, in almost any manner or way that can be measured.

I am equally sure that an experienced marathoner could out run you, either now, on race day or at any point in between. And it's not about genetics or ability, it's about your body learning how to run long. The training you are doing is not teaching your body how to cope and that's why you need to adjust either your training or your target.

Here's another quote to think about, from Noakes another experienced runner, coach and sports doctor / scientist: "the pain after 31kms of the standard marathon is the worst that any man will bear and is bested only by childbirth for women"

Running a marathon with no specific trainng

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