Degree from IT or University, is there a difference?

Raconteuse · 13-11-2019 3:41am

Everlee Long Vignette wrote: »

Despite its name, MIT is a university. In the USA, Irish ITs would be community colleges.

Thought PLC colleges would be more like community colleges?

Raconteuse · 13-11-2019 3:42am

MIT is up there with the Stanfords and Harvards.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 13-11-2019 9:33am

Raconteuse wrote: »

Thought PLC colleges would be more like community colleges?

Well, there's no clear one-to-one correspondence — but community colleges are increasingly offering four-year degrees tailored to the needs of local employers, which is close to the Irish IT model. Around half US states now permit community colleges to offer four-year degrees. That said, a degree from a community college would not be regarded as equivalent in the US to a degree from a university.

Raconteuse wrote: »

MIT is up there with the Stanfords and Harvards.

Exactly. In the Times Higher Education World University Rankings for 2019, MIT is ranked fourth behind Oxford, Cambridge, and Stanford, with California Institute of Technology (Cal Tech) rounding out the top five. Both are ahead of Harvard, Princeton, and Yale.

I believe the Irish government rebranded the RTCs as "Institutes of Technology" in an effort to create an association in the minds of US multinational employers with world-class institutions like MIT and Cal Tech. That they have succeeded in creating that confusion is evident on this thread.

EmmetSpiceland · 13-11-2019 9:47am

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I'm in my fifth year studying part-time for an arts degree from the Open University.

Are you retired?

andekwarhola · 13-11-2019 10:08am

Work in IT myself (do some interviews as well) and seems to be (from the ones I know at least) a fairly even spread of qualifications re: institution. I'd say it's more down to the individual course, your aptitude and the first job you take right after graduation as to how you progress in a career.

andekwarhola · 13-11-2019 10:11am

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

PLC's are a waste of space.

If the kids cannot get into a real course that they WANT to do, then advise to look for an apprenticeship.

I've never met a poor plumber.

Maybe it's changed since my college days but I thought some PLCs offer a pathway on to further third level study. Dunno if that's changed?

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 13-11-2019 10:53am

LirW wrote: »

In a few other EU countries Level 8 doesn't exist.

The Irish meaning of "Level 8" is specific to the National Framework of Qualifications (NQF).

There's also an EU-wide European Qualifications Framework (EQF) but it has eight levels rather than ten. Levels 7 and 8 on the Irish NFQ both correspond to Level 6 on the EQF — meaning that there is no distinction at the EU level between an ordinary degree and an honours degree.

A "Level 8" qualification in the EQF would be a PhD, which also has the potential to create confusion.

LirW · 13-11-2019 11:39am

Everlee Long Vignette wrote: »

The Irish meaning of "Level 8" is specific to the National Framework of Qualifications (NQF).

There's also an EU-wide European Qualifications Framework (EQF) but it has eight levels rather than ten. Levels 7 and 8 on the Irish NFQ both correspond to Level 6 on the EQF — meaning that there is no distinction at the EU level between an ordinary degree and an honours degree.

A "Level 8" qualification in the EQF would be a PhD, which also has the potential to create confusion.

The same works the other way around, the NFQ has no idea how to deal with European qualifications that are from vocational schools. In my course are a mainly people from all over Europe that can't get their qualification accredited. Even though they trained in a specific field and have qualification according to the EQF, they are on the same level as a leaving cert student because there is no equivalent on the NFQ. Same happened to me.

Also there are other more practical paths to gain qualification besides college and would equal a Bachelor's degree, but only counts as a level 6 on the NFQ. It's incredibly frustrating for people and there are plenty in the same boat.

I can't for my life understand that certain EU countries have no interest in using one framework for all member states.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 13-11-2019 12:47pm

LirW wrote: »

I can't for my life understand why certain EU countries have no interest in using one framework for all member states.

Agreed. A core aspect of European integration is intra-EU labour mobility — so it would seem a no-brainer to have a consistent international framework under which prospective employers can assess qualifications.

That said, the Irish government is determined to cultivate the impression of a "highly qualified workforce" by handing out degrees left, right, and centre. Many of these degrees are of dubious academic value, but the government doesn't want anyone looking too closely at standards, grading practices, etc.

Raconteuse · 13-11-2019 12:57pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

Maybe it's changed since my college days but I thought some PLCs offer a pathway on to further third level study.

They do indeed. And some are industry accredited courses in and of themselves. That poster knows it full well though.

theteal · 13-11-2019 1:19pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

Maybe it's changed since my college days but I thought some PLCs offer a pathway on to further third level study. Dunno if that's changed?

Nope, not changed, just some people have misplaced dismissive views about such things. I'm married to and know plenty more senior nurses who started with a PLC. There's a national radio broadcaster that sat a few desks over from me in secondary school who also started out on a PLC. Also, as mentioned previously by another poster, there have been some Hollywood awards that are directly linked to a PLC course from the prestigious confines of the Kylemore Road.

Yes, some people think more highly of certain educational establishments but ultimately it's down to the individual to make something of themself. Also as has been mentioned, for the most part, the degree just gets you the interview.

blanch152 · 13-11-2019 1:41pm

Everlee Long Vignette wrote: »

In theory, that's true.

In practice, institutional prestige comes into play. Many people would value a degree from Trinity College more than a degree from Sligo IT.

Also, a "level 8 degree" means nothing outside of Ireland. Employers in other countries are likely to look at how highly ranked an institution is internationally, and that's where the top universities will stand their graduates in better stead.

It all comes down to what you want to do, where you want to work, what type of education and work suits you better etc.

If you are doing a business degree, and want to work in finance, banking, consultancy etc., the traditional areas of business then it is fairly simple. Go to a traditional university.

If you are more interested in setting up your own business, a more practically oriented degree with work experience in DCU, UL or an IoT would be more beneficial.

In other areas, you sometimes find that some employers, particularly multi-nationals take all the graduates from a particular course in a particular IoT.

The advent of technological universities over the next few years will prove a challenge to the more traditional old-fashioned universities.

Sleepy · 13-11-2019 2:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely untrue, just in case anyone is fooled by this nonsense. Some of the most successful people in the country did arts degrees in university.

Micheal O'Leary: Business and Economics at Trinity, Denis O'Brien: History and Politics at UCD just to give two obvious examples.

Look up any CEO in this country and chances are probably about 50/50 they have an arts degree from a university.

It's more than a little disingenuous to compare the career prospects of someone who graduated Trinity with a Buiness Degress in the early 80's or someone who left UCD with a BA in the late 70's with the career prospects of someone who'll be graduating those courses over four decades later.

Ireland has changed enormously in the 40 years since having any degree would have placed you well above 95% of the population in terms of educational attainment. In fact, if we look at census figures: the completion of any form of third level qualification (which would include certs and diplomas) has tripled from 13.6% in 1991 to 42% in the most recent census in 2016. (This of course, would be due in huge part to "Rainbow Coalition" government of the time making third level fees free in 1996.)

Earning a BA in 80's Ireland was pretty much a guarantee that you'd have a successful career. In 2019, even people with MAs can find themselves unemployable or scraping by in minimum wage jobs.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 13-11-2019 2:38pm

The New York Times recently published a piece called "In the Salary Race, Engineers Sprint but English Majors Endure," pointing out that initial salary advantages enjoyed by STEM students steadily fade over time. By the age of 40 the earnings of people with social science or liberal arts degrees have largely caught up.

That said, it all hinges on whether liberal arts students actually get skills to begin with. There was a time when you could count on someone with a degree in English to be a decent writer, for instance, but those days are now gone.

Bit cynical · 13-11-2019 2:41pm

What does "university status" mean in practical terms? For example, DIT will become DTU. Apart from the addition of the word "university" to the name, how will this impact the running of the institution? Are there higher academic standards, different funding model, etc?

hots · 13-11-2019 3:30pm

theteal wrote: »

Nope, not changed, just some people have misplaced dismissive views about such things. I'm married to and know plenty more senior nurses who started with a PLC. There's a national radio broadcaster that sat a few desks over from me in secondary school who also started out on a PLC. Also, as mentioned previously by another poster, there have been some Hollywood awards that are directly linked to a PLC course from the prestigious confines of the Kylemore Road.

Yes, some people think more highly of certain educational establishments but ultimately it's down to the individual to make something of themself. Also as has been mentioned, for the most part, the degree just gets you the interview.

In broad strokes, I would see PLCs as great backdoors to further education (and often produce people with a great work ethic too) but on their own merit aren't worth a great deal, with rare exceptions like you mentioned.

hots · 13-11-2019 3:41pm

tonycascarino wrote: »

From what I have learned over the years is that it doesn't matter where you get educated or what level it is, the only thing that matters in the majority of cases is the pull you have in the end to get you a job. As the saying goes, it is not what you know but who you know. That sort of thing is rampant in this country but naturally people will pretend otherwise as they want you to believe that they got their job on merit.

This doesn't apply for your first job though generally, and that's were the place actually matters. Literally anything that can whittle down 400 CVs down to 200 will be used, lazy and ineffective but it 100% happens, and while it does there is benefit to getting into Trinity or UCD (didn't go to either, have gotten on just fine). After your first job and maybe the one immediately after (depending on how long you stay) it's far less relevant.

Mr Tickle · 13-11-2019 3:51pm

I'd definitley look into what kind of work placement the college offers. I was in a course with some very average students being taught by some very average lecturers but half of the class are now working in well paid engineering jobs in med devices. Most of those got placements in these companies along the way while more smarter, more talented guys couldn't get their toe in the door without the experience.
I recently got into a postgrad course too, largely thanks to my industry experience. and that stemmed from the year of work placement.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 13-11-2019 4:38pm

Everlee Long Vignette wrote: »

Despite its name, MIT is a university. In the USA, Irish ITs would be community colleges.

Good way to frame it. Irish ITs would be community colleges to MIT’s Ivy League level prestige.

But having said that, community colleges are vital. They get a hard time but they can help kids who might have been a bit wayward in school to get a foot in the door of tertiary education where many can do well and move on to university.

Raconteuse wrote: »

Thought PLC colleges would be more like community colleges?

Community colleges can award two year degrees which is kinda similar to what Irish IT did up to fairly recently.

PLC don’t give any kind of degree. I’m not knocking them. There are some great PLC courses, such as art foundation courses. I know somebody doing very well in graphic design off the back of a PLC course.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 13-11-2019 5:14pm

tonycascarino wrote: »

From what I have learned over the years is that it doesn't matter where you get educated or what level it is, the only thing that matters in the majority of cases is the pull you have in the end to get you a job. As the saying goes, it is not what you know but who you know. That sort of thing is rampant in this country but naturally people will pretend otherwise as they want you to believe that they got their job on merit.

The only thing? In the majority? Not one of my post-graduation jobs was got through connections. I really mean that. My background was well down the socio-economic totem pole. I didn’t know anyone in any of the organisations I worked in and this was all during the recession when getting a job was harder.

I’m not tooting my own horn here. I don’t believe my experience is that unusual. Connections can help and, yes, some people get where they are because of them. But I’d hate for your defeatist attitude to be widespread. That’s almost letting the well-connected get all the spoils.

Andrewf20 · 13-11-2019 5:16pm

I doubt there's any real difference. Ive compared notes between a uni and DIT engineering course and they look similar in terms of difficulty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 13-11-2019 5:44pm

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I doubt there's any real difference. Ive compared notes between a uni and DIT engineering course and they look similar in terms of difficulty

I thought this too but I once saw DCU finals exam papers for the equivalent to my TCD specialisation and I have to admit, I was very surprised at how much easier they were.

13-11-2019 6:02pm

Elemonator wrote: »

The most recent world rankings have DCU and Maynooth in the same bracket at 401-500 and UL at 501-600. Trinity is 117th, mental we don't have a top 100 institution.

This metric is solely based on the number of research papers published. It tells you nothing about the quality of graduates. UL is ranked way down but they produce first rate graduates.

13-11-2019 6:07pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The only thing? In the majority? Not one of my post-graduation jobs was got through connections. I really mean that. My background was well down the socio-economic totem pole. I didn’t know anyone in any of the organisations I worked in and this was all during the recession when getting a job was harder.

I’m not tooting my own horn here. I don’t believe my experience is that unusual. Connections can help and, yes, some people get where they are because of them. But I’d hate for your defeatist attitude to be widespread. That’s almost letting the well-connected get all the spoils.

If your degree was in something like Ancient Greek Mythology then connections matter a lot. If on the other hand it's in Chemical Engineering or Software Development then they matter far less if at all.

LirW · 13-11-2019 6:15pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

PLC don’t give any kind of degree. I’m not knocking them. There are some great PLC courses, such as art foundation courses. I know somebody doing very well in graphic design off the back of a PLC course.

You can get a level 6 though and PLC providers can sometimes hook you up to go on into third level if you wish.
One of them is my husband and he had the choice of going to do 3 years at DIT or going England for a year and finish his BSc there.
A lot of level 6 courses allow you to skip a year or two in college, which is great for people that want to avail of it.

spurious · 13-11-2019 6:17pm

Mrs OBumble wrote:

PLC's are a waste of space.

Mrs OBumble wrote:

If the kids cannot get into a real course that they WANT to do, then advise to look for an apprenticeship.

The great thing about PLCs is that it gives candidates who actually have a year of studying the area in question a chance rather than landing into a course they knew nothing about. The dropout rate of those who did a related PLC beforehand is much lower.

LirW · 13-11-2019 6:20pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If your degree was in something like Ancient Greek Mythology then connections matter a lot. If on the other hand it's in Chemical Engineering or Software Development then they matter far less if at all.

I find that people going into niche courses like that often have the ambition to stay in academia and the ones that really want it often also succeed with it.
Other countries offer the option to create your own curriculum for certain degrees, there are strict guidelines but I met people that availed of it and they had good scope of where they're going with it and had the awareness that this is generally a hard-to-employ award. Granted, most of them weren't young students.

13-11-2019 6:29pm

There's so much pretension, ignorance and parochial insecurities from certain types in this country about third level. There's a huge shortage in loads of areas - trades being the obvious - but for little other than misguided snobbery people avoid them.

Moreover, it would be nice if many members of the professions and trades could be better at their jobs. It's a pleasure, and often a relief, to encounter people who are good at their jobs. Reliable. Trustworthy. Serious. Dependable. However, so many people in the professions and trades are just coasting along. They're just not very good at their jobs and aren't really ambitious enough to aim to be better. They've passed their exams and are in whatever closed profession or trade, and that's enough for them. When you do find somebody really good, they're usually too busy to provide the service.

The number of people who are not actually competent - just competent - behind those protected professions and trades is something that should be an issue. The signing off on all those dodgy apartment blocks is a microcosm of the sort of standards in many sectors of this society.

So, yes, give me some really competent, reliable person and it wouldn't matter in the slightest where they got their degree. It wouldn't even be a consideration. As far as I'm aware, most people in the real world are looking for somebody who is good at their job and can be relied upon to deliver the goods on time (and at a reasonable price). That's all.

LirW · 13-11-2019 6:31pm

spurious wrote: »

The great thing about PLCs is that it gives candidates who actually have a year of studying the area in question a chance rather than landing into a course they knew nothing about. The dropout rate of those who did a related PLC beforehand is much lower.

A big problem is that some courses have really strict CAO requirements that aren't really relevant. Why would anyone in sport science need Irish, yet if you're chronically bad at languages this can mess up just about every chance to get in anything you have a good aptitude for.

I have an issue with CAO in general because it completely dismisses the individual talents people have. Being good at studying or being in the position to avail of tutoring doesn't mean you're going to be a good doctor. It's a plain and simple point race and any struggles in certain fields could very well mean you won't succeed in something you would be good at and have an interest for.
The NFQ is incredibly rigid and solely focuses on Irish secondary education awards where there aren't many of.
If you look at level 6 courses, they are full of people that have foreign qualifications (a lot of EU ones) and can't use them here because the NFQ doesn't know what to do with them.

No idea why PLCs get slated when everyone cries out for alternative educational paths for the myriad of people that generally don't perform well in a high pressure secondary ed environment.

LirW · 13-11-2019 6:36pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, yes, give me some really competent, reliable person and it wouldn't matter in the slightest where they got their degree. It wouldn't even be a consideration. As far as I'm aware, most people in the real world are looking for somebody who is good at their job and can be relied upon to deliver the goods on time (and at a reasonable price). That's all.

The HR filter is a real issue nowadays. HR in many places are lazy gobsh*tes availing of programs that dismiss every CV that doesn't fulfill a strict set of parameters.
So a good, reliable, alternatively trained person might never get a shot getting certain positions because without X you're nothing. And I'd say this is a big reason why people push their children into third level.
Sad really.

joe40 · 13-11-2019 6:52pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's so much pretension, ignorance and parochial insecurities from certain types in this country about third level. There's a huge shortage in loads of areas - trades being the obvious - but for little other than misguided snobbery people avoid them.

Moreover, it would be nice if many members of the professions and trades could be better at their jobs. It's a pleasure, and often a relief, to encounter people who are good at their jobs. Reliable. Trustworthy. Serious. Dependable. However, so many people in the professions and trades are just coasting along. They're just not very good at their jobs and aren't really ambitious enough to aim to be better. They've passed their exams and are in whatever closed profession or trade, and that's enough for them. When you do find somebody really good, they're usually too busy to provide the service.

The number of people who are not actually competent - just competent - behind those protected professions and trades is something that should be an issue. The signing off on all those dodgy apartment blocks is a microcosm of the sort of standards in many sectors of this society.

So, yes, give me some really competent, reliable person and it wouldn't matter in the slightest where they got their degree. It wouldn't even be a consideration. As far as I'm aware, most people in the real world are looking for somebody who is good at their job and can be relied upon to deliver the goods on time (and at a reasonable price). That's all.

I think part of the problem is our education system doesn't value or provide good quality vocational training. Even earlier in the thread someone commented to me, in answer to the OP, that if my kids weren't "smart enough" for University they should do an apprenticeship.
I absolutely agree academic third level is not suitable for everyone but the mindset of "too stupid" for college is a large part of the problem.
Ironically I think my young lad will be suited for an academic third level, but wouldn't have the skills to be a good tradesman.
Both career paths should be equally valued and resourced.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 13-11-2019 6:59pm

LirW wrote: »

You can get a level 6 though and PLC providers can sometimes hook you up to go on into third level if you wish.
One of them is my husband and he had the choice of going to do 3 years at DIT or going England for a year and finish his BSc there.
A lot of level 6 courses allow you to skip a year or two in college, which is great for people that want to avail of it.

So, yes, PLC providers don’t confer degrees. They can provide a link to finishing one at another institution.

Foweva Awone · 13-11-2019 7:02pm

I work in Accountancy. My degree in Business Studies from a regional IT certainly never held me back, I got a job in a Big Four firm on graduation and have gotten pretty much every job I've ever applied for prior to that and since then.

When talking about my degree in interviews, I'd have emphasised the practical work (including a five-month work placement as part of the degree) and smaller class sizes, wide variety of classes, good study-life balance etc.

It's all about how you present it really. I never felt myself as being "less than" in that respect, and I guess that confidence has stood to me in interviews.

LirW · 13-11-2019 7:03pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So, yes, PLC providers don’t confer degrees. They can provide a link to finishing one at another institution.

Never said they did. In recent years some provide classes and labs for certain degrees though that are accredited by Universities.
Friend of mine did a 2 year PLC diploma and one year level 8 top up that they provide but it's accredited by an English university.

Paddy Cow · 13-11-2019 10:23pm

LirW wrote: »

Funnily enough, cafes used to be a valid place for intellectuals to exchange and write, this was exactly the way you imagine it and some pretty big names like Sigmund Freud were into it.
But that completely aside, my point is:
We all have different cognitive abilities and process the world differently.
Great scientists and researchers often have very logical thinking and reasoning, make sense of numerical material and follow certain processes that require exactly these abilities. You can only learn this to a certain point.
Divergent thinking is often something convergent minds struggle to understand and the other way around.

And this is pretty much what it is about. "Creative thinking" is a different way of problem solving than "logical thinking". One uses facts, one uses imagination and people tend to have stronger aptitudes in just one of them.
Art degrees require a lot of divergent thinking because you'll come across a lot of problems that can't be solved logically and the process of solving issues this way are fundamentally different than logical ones.
Turn it around and take a field that is heavily fact based, they require a good logical ability.

It doesn't mean that one is superior to the other and also doesn't mean that scientists can't have creative hobbies.

It's a fallacy that arts students are more creative than stem students or that you are either creative or logical. The brightest people are both eg Leonardo da Vinci, Newton, Einstein etc. They are plenty of arts students who are not creative at all. Plenty of teachers who simply hand their students essays and get them to learn them off. Plenty of people in STEM require both creativity and logical thinking. Architects, designers, inventors, scientists etc all need ideas as well as problem solving.

RacoonQueen · 14-11-2019 12:18am

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So, yes, PLC providers don’t confer degrees. They can provide a link to finishing one at another institution.

Ballyfermot do an animation degree all in Ballyfermot.
https://www.bcfe.ie/courses/ba-hons-visual-media-in-animation-game-design-2/

LirW · 14-11-2019 12:43am

Paddy Cow wrote: »

It's a fallacy that arts students are more creative than stem students or that you are either creative or logical. The brightest people are both eg Leonardo da Vinci, Newton, Einstein etc. They are plenty of arts students who are not creative at all. Plenty of teachers who simply hand their students essays and get them to learn them off. Plenty of people in STEM require both creativity and logical thinking. Architects, designers, inventors, scientists etc all need ideas as well as problem solving.

I never said it's a black and white thing but different disciplines require different approaches and not everyone is suitable for everything.
Also my whole blurb was in response to someone saying they don't think much of the whole "critical" thinking in humanities and arts.

Basically we all have different aptitudes but generally logical thinking is valued a lot more in economical terms because it makes money easier and is seen as the recipe for success. Why do you think the drop out rates in some STEM courses are so high? Because kids constantly hear how STEM and business is basically the recipe to success and art and humanities are useless horsesh1te, parents put pressure on them to pursue the safe path to monetary security completely dismissing their interests and aptitudes.
Young people that find themselves having great divergent skills are confronted that their given aptitude is less valuable than a convergent one because they're harder to monetize. This might be a contributing factor to this surge recognized mental health issues because our society only values people with certain skills and natural talents, if you don't fall into it, tough tiddies.

hots · 14-11-2019 10:57am

Foweva Awone wrote: »

I work in Accountancy. My degree in Business Studies from a regional IT certainly never held me back, I got a job in a Big Four firm on graduation and have gotten pretty much every job I've ever applied for prior to that and since then.

When talking about my degree in interviews, I'd have emphasised the practical work (including a five-month work placement as part of the degree) and smaller class sizes, wide variety of classes, good study-life balance etc.

It's all about how you present it really. I never felt myself as being "less than" in that respect, and I guess that confidence has stood to me in interviews.

You would be an outlier in that respect though, big 4 grad intake is pretty much the prime example of the sort of CV screening that rewards UCD/Trinity on the first cull of CVs. Your work experience would have helped massively against someone with none and I would guess you had some nice extras on there and good grades too?

I would say it's changing now, diversity is being pushed more and further than just gender, certainly broader types of course subjects and, to a lesser extent, a push to look beyond UCD/Trinity.

mariaalice · 14-11-2019 11:25am

Has there ever been any long term studies done on this.

There was a study that I can't find now, it showed that doing higher level maths was a predictor of doing well in third level and completing college and was a correlation with earning after college.

This is often taken to mean higher level maths = intelligence but its not as simple as that, what it means is that the skillset associated with higher-level maths is one that is valued by our work culture and our third level culture.

Captain Havoc · 14-11-2019 11:30am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Are you retired?

No.

Redhighking · 14-11-2019 11:41am

hots wrote: »

You would be an outlier in that respect though, big 4 grad intake is pretty much the prime example of the sort of CV screening that rewards UCD/Trinity on the first cull of CVs.

Very outdated opinion and would be interested to know your source of such a claim. In the last 5 years since 'economic recovery' there has been a large increase in students from UCC and UL joining the Big 4 Accountancy Firms and the Top 5 Law Firms, mostly due to both UCC and UL offering co-op for 6 to 9 months (very much a US university influence), meaning UCC and UL students are work ready for their perspective careers.

EmmetSpiceland · 14-11-2019 11:42am

Captain Havoc wrote: »

No.

Oh, what’s the end “goal” of this for you?

Are you just doing it out of “interest” or will you use it as a springboard to getting a proper degree?

Five years is a long time to spend on an “Arts” degree. I mean, you could have gotten an entry level job somewhere and be five years ahead of where you’re going to be when you get the job that your degree will get you.

I’ve worked with guys who studied at night before, the one who did “wish-washy” humanities subjects were really only doing it due to having a “chip” on their shoulder over not having a degree. Which, to me, is a terrible reason.

LirW · 14-11-2019 11:54am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I’ve worked with guys who studied at night before, the one who did “wish-washy” humanities subjects were really only doing it due to having a “chip” on their shoulder over not having a degree. Which, to me, is a terrible reason.

There's a general notion though that you won't be successful without a third level qualification. People stand in direct competition with their peers that have third level and nowadays so many people have relatively easy access to third level that there's no shortage of graduates and it becomes the new leaving cert. So I can totally see why people want to do a degree, any degree in order to be more employable. This "working my way up from sweeping floors" is long gone in many fields and it's unfortunately the reality.
Which means people with no aptitude for third level will have to do it anyway, otherwise they stay behind.
And we all buy into it, so many people on boards that constantly go on about upskilling and bettering yourself and if not then tough sh1t, stay in retail and live a life of earning 12 quid on zero hour contracts.
What exactly are people supposed to do to get to an interview table in times of automated HR procedures when they realistically have no chance on finishing a "good" degree like STEM or medicine? Is suffering 4 years through something you absolutely hate just to be somewhat employable and work the next 30 years in a job you absolutely despise because it makes you look better to the world, the new norm?

Montage of Feck · 14-11-2019 11:57am

The paper is of a higher quality. Manufacturered from hemp hand picked by Ecudurian peasents while those from Trinity are printed on the skins of Catholics.

hots · 14-11-2019 12:10pm

Redhighking wrote: »

Very outdated opinion and would be interested to know your source of such a claim. In the last 5 years since 'economic recovery' there has been a large increase in students from UCC and UL joining the Big 4 Accountancy Firms and the Top 5 Law Firms, mostly due to both UCC and UL offering co-op for 6 to 9 months (very much a US university influence), meaning UCC and UL students are work ready for their perspective careers.

Certainly seeing more UCC alright, and agreed very much because of the placement, but there is still a heavy bias towards UCD&Trinity CVs getting to first interview stage, and %wise they clear screening at a higher rate than other applicants (could be because they have better CVs in general but I don't think screening is that sophisticated) from what I've seen.

Best surefire way to get into these companies is completing a placement with them, unless you're showing no effort or don't want it it's a cert. Source is personal experience, I don't agree with it by the way, UCD & Trinity doesn't make for the best graduates by any stretch of the imagination, I think prior work experience of pretty much any type is a better indicator than say Galway vs UCD as institutions.

Ficheall · 14-11-2019 12:16pm

LirW wrote: »

Also my whole blurb was in response to someone saying they don't think much of the whole "critical" thinking in humanities and arts.

Just to clarify - my point wasn't that I felt critical thinking was lacking, but that it tends to be trumpeted as a major boon of studying Arts, as though it weren't also a fundamental facet of STEM subjects.

aido79 · 14-11-2019 12:30pm

megaten wrote: »

Really? I would have thought most IT grads end up answering phones or other Helpdesk stuff so I wouldn't say it makes much of a difference for the majority.

I haven't read the whole thread so not sure if you have been corrected yet but I think you are getting mixed up between Institute of Technology and Information Technology.

LirW · 14-11-2019 1:42pm

Ficheall wrote: »

Just to clarify - my point wasn't that I felt critical thinking was lacking, but that it tends to be trumpeted as a major boon of studying Arts, as though it weren't also a fundamental facet of STEM subjects.

I think it's more about the different way of critical thinking that's essential to Arts. Both have their place in the world, one is seen as more economically valuable because it's used in disciplines that translate into successful careers better.
They're entirely different aptitudes and often differ in cognitive abilities which makes people individually better in certain areas.
There are all nuances of critical thinking in between and some studies require a good mix of both but there is a tendency that divergent thinking is more associated with Arts/Humanities and convergent with STEM.

Captain Havoc · 14-11-2019 2:29pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Oh, what’s the end “goal” of this for you?

Are you just doing it out of “interest” or will you use it as a springboard to getting a proper degree?

Five years is a long time to spend on an “Arts” degree. I mean, you could have gotten an entry level job somewhere and be five years ahead of where you’re going to be when you get the job that your degree will get you.

I’ve worked with guys who studied at night before, the one who did “wish-washy” humanities subjects were really only doing it due to having a “chip” on their shoulder over not having a degree. Which, to me, is a terrible reason.

The end goal keeps changing. Initially I graduated from Shannon where I did hotel management and business studies. I worked during and after my course in Switzerland and learned to speak French quite well. My CV screams hotel work and I don't want to work crappy hours until I retire so I started applying for jobs outside the hotel industry. I got out for about five years but the crash threw me back into it. I kept applying for jobs with French but no success. Five years ago I decided to get a languages degree to get out, I thought I was going to go towards translating but a few years ago I started tour guiding in the summer. I look after my mum since my dad died three years ago, I had to stop working full time. This year I started giving walking tours of Kilkenny in only French and German. This winter I'm going to do an etb course in tour guiding here in Kilkenny. Now the goal is to tour guide in foreign languages. I registered the business and started very slowly this summer. I'm really proud of how it's gone, the reviews have been great but financially it's been really poor.

cassid · 14-11-2019 11:36pm

El Weirdo wrote: »

Not aimed specifically at you, OP, but pressuring kids to make career choices at 17/18 is ridiculous.

I worked in student accommodation for a few years and the amount of students dropping out after the first semester was insane.

v

You do know that at the age of 12/13 first year students in secondary school have to make decisions of which subjects they can drop or continue. This means you have to ascertain if there a specific area your child might like to study at 3rd level. My son has the option of dropping french, this could mean by not having a 3rd language, no big deal ? It could be , because if you don't have a 3rd language you may not have the entry requirements for specific courses.

I know several of his classmates are ditching French, but neither the school nor their parents have looked at the 3rd entry requirements for all Universities/Colleges. Kids are dropping subjects now that may exclude them from picking courses they may like in the future.

This is how the new junior cycle is working. I have worked in Universities and have seen load's of first years dropping out because they have not researched or don't like the course they applied to it. In several years, we are going to have students realising they should have kept French or German because its an entry requirement. I don't understand why students are not getting told this information before subject options. So 17/18 is actually be way to late to take up a new subject for leaving certificate. These decisions are left to 12 and 13 year olds.

http://www.ucd.ie/registry/admissions/er.html

Degree from IT or University, is there a difference?

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