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Accidental Landlord - tenant has over stayed

  • 12-09-2018 3:09pm
    #1
    Lizzie71
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭


    Need some advice, I am an accidental landlord I bough a house in one of the commuter towns in the boom after nearly 5yrs decided to move back to Dublin, the house was in negative equity so decided to rent the house out until a time we could sell it. We went all legit paid tax the whole lot so house is not making money its costing us money.
    So we had the same tenant in the house the whole time never had much issue with her, she had to be reminded sometimes to pay. We reduced rent when she said she was struggling then when everyone else was changing 300 to 400 more for the same house we kept the rent the same as tenants that don't give you hassle are hard to come by.
    WE let our tenant know we were selling the house got a solicitor to draw up a letter to give notice so it was all above boar. We gave her the legal required notice of 32wks, on the day she was to move out I got a text telling me she wasn't moving out as she had nowhere to go with her kids, I forgot to say she is "separated" which I know is not true but none of my business as long as she is paying the rent so she is claiming to be a lone parent with 2 kids one of which was born after they broke up.
    so she refuses to move out and will not give me a date when she will, she said she has something sorted but had no date and when she gets one I will. But we cant go on like this indefinitely, also she has not paid the rent so she has over stayed and not paying her rent.
    I have logged a complaint with the RTB but feel like there should be something else I have to be able to do.
    There is no protection for landlords like myself, I cannot go into the property unless she agrees, she is breaking the law but I cant do anything???? How is this fair in the meantime my wife and I have to pay 2 mortgages which will not be easy.
    Anyone got any advice I am so stressed and worried.


«134

Comments

  • #2
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Unfortunately that is the law.

    Tenants are protected but that doesnt suit the agenda of those pushing for free homes.


  • #3
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,305 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Ask for advice here; https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=38

    The tenant will probably have rang Threshold who will probably have told them to overhold. I advise you to get a solicitor that has experience in the area of evicting tenants. Do not expect the tenant to ever more out on their own.


  • #4
    Lizzie71
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Lizzie71


    No idea to be honest, its horrible that she feels entitled to this house free when i work for what i have.
    the_syco wrote: »
    Ask for advice here; https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=38

    The tenant will probably have rang Threshold who will probably have told them to overhold. I advise you to get a solicitor that has experience in the area of evicting tenants. Do not expect the tenant to ever more out on their own.


  • #5
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,869 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Lodge a case with the PRTB now. Today. Get off Boards when you read this and contact them immediately.


  • #6
    Lizzie71
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Lizzie71


    Deleted User wrote:
    Lodge a case with the PRTB now. Today. Get off Boards when you read this and contact them immediately.

    did already just looking for guidance to see if there is anything else we ne3d to ok. jusr find it crazy there is not m7ch else we can do.


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  • #7
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Solicitor and bed in for potentially a long wait. The other option is to offer her money to leave.


  • #8
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,305 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    The other option is to offer her money to leave.
    Unfortunately, this is true. Offering to pay her €1,000 or €2,000 after she has left will probably be the cheapest option. Have the locks changed the moment she does leave.


  • #9
    Lizzie71
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Lizzie71


    the_syco wrote:
    Unfortunately, this is true. Offering to pay her €1,000 or €2,000 after she has left will probably be the cheapest option. Have the locks changed the moment she does leave.


    not in a position to pay her to get out...


  • #10
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,869 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Lizzie71 wrote: »
    did already just looking for guidance to see if there is anything else we ne3d to ok. jusr find it crazy there is not m7ch else we can do.

    Apologies, I thought you said that you had not logged one. The fact that she's stopped paying rent should mean the case is heard quickly enough (or relatively quickly compared to other cases). Best of luck.


  • #11
    snipey
    Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭snipey


    I had a neighbor renting a house and land lord wanted them out they were refusing to move but once they stopped paying rent he had them out in around eight weeks using the legal system PRTB, Best of luck


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  • #12
    3DataModem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,031 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Lizzie71 wrote: »
    not in a position to pay her to get out...

    If she is a motivated overholder, you could be looking at 6-12 months before she leaves. It will almost certainly be cheaper to pay her to leave.


  • #13
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    This is absolutely disgraceful that landlords are being forced to pay none paying tenants to leave their homes, what a train wreck. Best of luck op


  • #14
    Lizzie71
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Lizzie71


    3DataModem wrote:
    If she is a motivated overholder, you could be looking at 6-12 months before she leaves. It will almost certainly be cheaper to pay her to leave.

    if i thought that would do the trick id get a loan but she is saying she has nowhere to go.


  • #15
    bullpost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,234 ✭✭✭bullpost


    What about offering to provide a very good reference if she moves out now?

    Explain to her that if you need to go through PRTB she will be evicted in any case and without a reference her chances of getting future accommodation wont be good?


  • #16
    3DataModem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,031 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Lizzie71 wrote: »
    if i thought that would do the trick id get a loan but she is saying she has nowhere to go.

    Cash will give her somewhere to go.


  • #17
    3DataModem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,031 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    bullpost wrote: »
    What about offering to provide a very good reference if she moves out now?

    Explain to her that if you need to go through PRTB she will be evicted in any case and without a reference her chances of getting future accommodation wont be good?

    This competely ****s over the next landlord with a crap tenant.


  • #18
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,106 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    Unfortunately that is the law.

    Tenants are protected but that doesnt suit the agenda of those pushing for free homes.

    Doesnt appear to be the law,

    It seems you can now just get some lads in balaclavas in a big van to chuck them out. And the guards will police the event for you.

    If the recent enforcement is to be believed.


    Where does Civil and Criminal start and finish.... Lines are all blurred


  • #19
    Marcusm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,447 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    listermint wrote: »
    Doesnt appear to be the law,

    It seems you can now just get some lads in balaclavas in a big van to chuck them out. And the guards will police the event for you.

    If the recent enforcement is to be believed.


    Where does Civil and Criminal start and finish.... Lines are all blurred

    They weren’t tenants or occupants. They were people who entered an empty property and refused to leave even in the face of a Hugh court order. I don’t support the use of balaclava’d security and certainly deplore thefts garda deploying masked officers but the occupants were not tenants.


  • #20
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    listermint wrote: »
    Doesnt appear to be the law,

    It seems you can now just get some lads in balaclavas in a big van to chuck them out. And the guards will police the event for you.

    If the recent enforcement is to be believed.


    Where does Civil and Criminal start and finish.... Lines are all blurred

    Are you deliberately misrepresenting the differences between protesters occupying a house (against a court order) and actual tenants or are you really that ill-informed and ignorant? Find it pretty hard to believe that someone couldn't appreciate the difference, it's hardly subtle...


  • #21
    Lizzie71
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Lizzie71


    bullpost wrote:
    Explain to her that if you need to go through PRTB she will be evicted in any case and without a reference her chances of getting future accommodation wont be good?

    bullpost wrote:
    What about offering to provide a very good reference if she moves out now?

    bullpost wrote:
    Explain to her that if you need to go through PRTB she will be evicted in any case and without a reference her chances of getting future accommodation wont be good?


    i gave her a very good reference along with a letter for her bank to say she had paid her rent for last 12 months.I did everything she asked.


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  • #22
    Lizzie71
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Lizzie71


    not if she has no intentions to go.

    cash is not her problem i know that for a fact


  • #23
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    I have had this difficulty in the past.

    The Tenant is protected.

    However, it is still your house. You can move another Tenant in unless the Lease gives her exclusive occupation.


  • #24
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    I have had this difficulty in the past.

    The Tenant is protected.

    However, it is still your house. You can move another Tenant in unless the Lease gives her exclusive occupation.

    This is interesting if true.

    In this case, you could get a mate to move in and essentially make life difficult enough for them that they'd move out? Do leases typically give exclusivity?


  • #25
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Amirani wrote: »
    This is interesting if true.

    In this case, you could get a mate to move in and essentially make life difficult enough for them that they'd move out? Do leases typically give exclusivity?

    They generally do not.

    And I know of cases where that has happened.

    An overholding tenant comes home to a large agressive topless man drinking beer with his naked feet on the coffee table eating pizza and blaring heavy metal and indicates he is her new housemate.

    She moved out immediately.


  • #26
    bullpost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,234 ✭✭✭bullpost


    Lizzie71 wrote: »
    i gave her a very good reference along with a letter for her bank to say she had paid her rent for last 12 months.I did everything she asked.

    I'd ask for them back so :eek:


  • #27
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    They generally do not.

    And I know of cases where that has happened.

    An overholding tenant comes home to a large agressive topless man drinking beer with his naked feet on the coffee table eating pizza and blaring heavy metal and indicates he is her new housemate.

    She moved out immediately.

    I think you might be taking a flyer on this one.

    I can see how what you are saying might hold true if you have multiple tenants on seperate leases and one moves out. Yes, another tenant of your choosing could move in to replace the tenant who has left.

    But a tenant who is renting a house, do you think you can let out a room to someone else because the tenant stopped paying rent? I suspect the RTB might have an issue with peaceful enjoyment of the property by the existing tenant. I doubt you could put another tenant in if the tenant has been renting the whole property, particularly where there are kids involved. When signing a lease for a house, the tenant has a right to the whole property. If you try and force another tenant on them, it could be a very costly mistake for you.

    The op just has to go through the whole RTB/court process and hope for the best. Apart from paying the tenant to leave, not much else that can be done without risk of illegal eviction and a payout.


  • #28
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    davo10 wrote: »
    I think you might be taking a flyer on this one.

    I can see how what you are saying might hold true if you have multiple tenants on seperate leases and one moves out. Yes, another tenant of your choosing could move in to replace the tenant who has left.

    But a tenant who is renting a house, do you think you can let out a room to someone else because the tenant stopped paying rent? I suspect the RTB might have an issue with peaceful enjoyment of the property by the existing tenant. I doubt you could put another tenant in if the tenant has been renting the whole property, particularly where there are kids involved. When signing a lease for a house, the tenant has a right to the whole property. If you try and force another tenant on them, it could be a very costly mistake for you.

    The op just has to go through the whole RTB/court process and hope for the best. Apart from paying the tenant to leave, not much else that can be done without risk of illegal eviction and a payout.

    Indeed. Good luck to her enforcing her case waiting for ten weeks for an adjudication and a year for the tribunal appeal living with a topless loon who likes to play metal till 5am every night.


  • #29
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    Indeed. Good luck to her enforcing her case waiting for ten weeks for an adjudication and a year for the tribunal appeal living with a topless loon who likes to play metal till 5am every night.

    I'm all for landlords rights, but I think you should enlighten yourself by looking up cases on the RTB website. Stupid actions lessor than what you are advocating have lead to hefty fines.


  • #30
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Amirani wrote: »
    Do leases typically give exclusivity?
    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    They generally do not.

    That's an interesting theory.....


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  • #31
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Im not advocating it. Im just saying if the lease is non exclusive doesnt seem to be a breach of a tenants rights to have another tenant. Happens every day. If that tenant happens to be horrible sometimes people leave


  • #32
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    Im not advocating it. Im just saying if the lease is non exclusive doesnt seem to be a breach of a tenants rights to have another tenant. Happens every day. If that tenant happens to be horrible sometimes people leave

    How is the lease non exclusive, if the tenant is renting the property? The op said the tenant has been renting "the house" for 5 years, how is this not exclusive use?


    See "Rights as a landlord"

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html


  • #33
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Surely they've a right ot peaceful occupation?


  • #34
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,157 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Wanderer78 wrote:
    This is absolutely disgraceful that landlords are being forced to pay none paying tenants to leave their homes, what a train wreck. Best of luck op


    Totally agree but it's cheaper & a lot less hassle than engaging a solicitor & going to court. Every month it goes on a landlord is losing 1500


  • #35
    Lizzie71
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Lizzie71


    Sleeper12 wrote:
    Totally agree but it's cheaper & a lot less hassle than engaging a solicitor & going to court. Every month it goes on a landlord is losing 1500


    the house is in meath but we never charged the going rate we only ever wanted to cover our mortgage so we were well below market rate, worse fools us. The reason we are selling is its costing us money and we wanted to just move on.We even contacted the council to see if they wanted to but so she could stay as she is on the housing list, but they wanted vacant possession.


  • #36
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,157 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Lizzie71 wrote:
    the house is in meath but we never charged the going rate we only ever wanted to cover our mortgage so we were well below market rate, worse fools us. The reason we are selling is its costing us money and we wanted to just move on.We even contacted the council to see if they wanted to but so she could stay as she is on the housing list, but they wanted vacant possession.


    If the council bought it with your tenants in it and them being a the housing list, then the tenants would be skipping the housing queue.

    No offence intended but you can't run a business without charging the market rate. Many people mistake kindness for weakness. The more of a difference between the rate you charge and the market rate the more likely the tenant will mess you around. There is another thread in accommodation forum & the tenant skipped owing 4 weeks rent and having done I think 15k worth of damage. By comparison if you get tenants out soon then you will be doing OK.


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  • #37
    Lizzie71
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Lizzie71


    it was never meant to be a business we were landlord due to the crash


  • #38
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,157 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Lizzie71 wrote:
    it was never meant to be a business we were landlord due to the crash


    I understand that but unless you had family or friends renting off the you then it was a business. What happens in business is if you charge way below the normal rate you cheapen the product. In the case of renting a home tenants mostly don't appreciate you going so cheap and for the most part they don't take care of your property as much as they might if you change the normal rate. By going cheaper you have a smaller deposit too & that's not good


  • #39
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Lizzie71 wrote: »
    .We even contacted the council to see if they wanted to but so she could stay as she is on the housing list, but they wanted vacant possession.

    Worth checking this out more.
    I know for a fact Cavan county council bought houses from Start Mortgauges complete with sitting tenant.


  • #40
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    His much has been awarded in the past for illegal eviction?

    Assume it's going to take 18 months to remove this tenant and say 10k worth of refurb costs.

    Does illegally kicking them out an changing all locks etc work out as the illegal but cheaper option assuming you'd be fined for doing it?

    Like say the tenant is about to screw the landlord over for 28 grand ( 18 months of 1 grand plus 10 refurb costs) would the fine be more than 28k

    OP. Seriously. Just offer them 2k to leave peacefully.


  • #41
    Lizzie71
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Lizzie71


    Wabbit Ears wrote:
    OP. Seriously. Just offer them 2k to leave peacefully.

    Money is not her issue at the minute and if i told you who my tenant is you would understand but have to be careful for legal reason not giving her any ammunition


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  • #42
    BBFAN
    Registered Users Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭BBFAN


    The amount of pompous people who think it's okay to come on this thread and tell the OP what a terrible business person they are is unreal. Get over yourselves.

    Anyway OP, it's a terrible situation to be in and the only advice I can give is follow the RTB rules to the letter of the law exactly and eventually she will have to go. By the sounds of it you don't really have any other options.


  • #43
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    Lizzie71 wrote:
    Money is not her issue at the minute and if i told you who my tenant is you would understand but have to be careful for legal reason not giving her any ammunition

    Write to every newspaper and media outlet and see if you can get a story run from your perspective. It would be a good follow up to the article posted on this forum recently.


  • #44
    3DataModem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,031 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Lizzie71 wrote: »
    i gave her a very good reference along with a letter for her bank to say she had paid her rent for last 12 months.I did everything she asked.

    I wonder did the last landlord do that too, and that’s why you got a bad tenant?


  • #45
    Lizzie71
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Lizzie71


    3DataModem wrote:
    I wonder did the last landlord do that too, and that’s why you got a bad tenant?

    you misunderstand she was not a bad tenant she just turned nasty when refused to leave.


  • #46
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,346 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Wabbit Ears wrote:
    Write to every newspaper and media outlet and see if you can get a story run from your perspective. It would be a good follow up to the article posted on this forum recently.


    In case you haven't noticed, the media isn't interested in this type of story, only about tenants.


  • #47
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,982 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I understand that but unless you had family or friends renting off the you then it was a business. What happens in business is if you charge way below the normal rate you cheapen the product. In the case of renting a home tenants mostly don't appreciate you going so cheap and for the most part they don't take care of your property as much as they might if you change the normal rate. By going cheaper you have a smaller deposit too & that's not good

    Not necessarily

    If tenants are being charged below market rent then they are more likely to want to stay in the property and not give the landlord any reason to want them out


  • #48
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,157 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    McCrack wrote:
    If tenants are being charged below market rent then they are more likely to want to stay in the property and not give the landlord any reason to want them out


    You would think but it doesn't work that way. Professional landlords rarely have the same issues with tenants as landlords with just one or two properties. You'll find plenty of threads on boards.ie where the tenant did thousands of euros worth of damage but you'll be hard pushed to find a thread by a professional landlord with damaged property. Not saying that professional landlords don't get caught out sometimes but noway near as often as landlords with one property.


  • #49
    jcd5971
    Registered Users Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭jcd5971


    Amirani wrote:
    Are you deliberately misrepresenting the differences between protesters occupying a house (against a court order) and actual tenants or are you really that ill-informed and ignorant? Find it pretty hard to believe that someone couldn't appreciate the difference, it's hardly subtle...


    So much for attack the post not the poster


  • #50
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    You would think but it doesn't work that way. Professional landlords rarely have the same issues with tenants as landlords with just one or two properties. You'll find plenty of threads on boards.ie where the tenant did thousands of euros worth of damage but you'll be hard pushed to find a thread by a professional landlord with damaged property. Not saying that professional landlords don't get caught out sometimes but noway near as often as landlords with one property.

    Professional landlords are very choosey who they rent to.
    Theyll ask for references and check them out carefully, ask for proof of funds, proof of employment etc.
    Generally they keep well away from RAS etc.

    This isnt fool proof of course. ( one of the most disgusting rentals I ever had to deal with had been rented by a surgeon and his family)


  • #51
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,040 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    You would think but it doesn't work that way. Professional landlords rarely have the same issues with tenants as landlords with just one or two properties. You'll find plenty of threads on boards.ie where the tenant did thousands of euros worth of damage but you'll be hard pushed to find a thread by a professional landlord with damaged property. Not saying that professional landlords don't get caught out sometimes but noway near as often as landlords with one property.

    Professional landlords just don't want to admit they got screwed, that's why you don't see them posting. Also a professional landlord will have the knowledge of how to deal with trouble tenants* so won't need advice from random strangers on the internet.



    *You only get the knowledge from experience


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