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Norwegian Air Discussion

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    #1022
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    1123heavy wrote: »
    In a sense, the demands are simply what the employees are owed. It's nothing on top of that. If it was then yes it would be greed, but employees took a hit when the company was in bad times and sacrifices were made. Now the company is out of that situation, the logical thing is that those who were at a loss are now repaid what they are owed. That's all it is.

    I see where you're coming from, but from a union perspective, one thing leads to another. Letting this go will mean it will likely happen again, and worse ... then where do you stop before you end up with Ryanair or Norwegian terms? Sounds extreme, but it's a reality and if the boards had their way it would already be the case.

    Not wanting to drag it on this topic but the whole point is EI cannot go back to where they were. It was completely unsustainable then and will be again even more than before.

    EI staff are on better terms than most major carriers in Europe, the few exceptions been AF, KLM, LH and look at all the problems they are facing now. the rest been on par or worse.


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    #1023
    Irishweather
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    737max wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/business/aer-lingus-reveals-it-fears-ryanair-threat-35957831.html

    If this is to be believed Aer Lingus are worried by Norwegian. They are being squeezed by Ryanair on Intra-Europe routes and now being squeezed by new entrants like Norwegian on trans-atlantic which may jeopardize investment by parent IAG.

    Need to reduce their prices then.


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    #1024
    1123heavy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    Irishweather wrote: »
    Need to reduce their prices then.

    If only it was that easy


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    #1025
    sparrowcar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,824 ✭✭✭sparrowcar


    1123heavy wrote: »
    If only it was that easy

    It is


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    #1026
    kevinandrew
    Registered Users Posts: 1,221 ✭✭✭kevinandrew


    That report is obviously Aer Lingus pushing the worst case scenario for them in order to plead their case against pay rises but there is obviously an element of truth to it all as they are in a very competitive environment which just got whole lot more competitive. Aer Lingus is in its strongest position in years, and like any reasonable business, they want to keep it that way!

    I don't think Aer Lingus are particularly worried about what Norwegian are currently offering but are wary of what may come from them in the future, if they decide to stick 787s at Dublin and launch west coast, or major east coast destinations then Aer Lingus will to fight wingtip to wingtip whereas right now Norwegian are barely a blip on their radar. 

    To suggest Aer Lingus should just lower their prices is laughable, they did that once and nearly drowned in losses. You can only lower prices by lowering costs and the current pricing model reflects their costs quite well, on average they are cheaper than legacies but still higher than true low fares airlines, they're somewhere in the middle which has been comfortable for a while but they need to constantly manage costs to fight the premium airlines above them and the no frills at the bottom.


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    #1027
    MoeJay
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭MoeJay


    Great to see airline economics distilled into a single sentence!

    Really, if it was that easy....

    ...I suppose people could work for free...?

    Any other ideas?


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    #1028
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    MoeJay wrote: »
    That's a good point but the IAA have no remit in relation to promotion of tourism, certainly none that I'm aware of.

    The remit of the IAA is safety. So I assume Norwegian are operating in a safe manner, so beyond that the IAA wouldn't be interested in them one way or another.

    Their remit certainly isn't protecting AerLingus from competition or concerning themselves with unions, etc.

    The Commission for Aviation Regulation is actually the body responsible for the economic aspect of Aviation regulation.

    But in the end the IAA, CAR, DAA, etc. are all 100% owned by the government. So you can bet they all sit down in meetings with the Minister of Transport and if he says this would be good for the Irish economy, you can bet they jump to it, within the confines of safety, etc. of course.


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    #1029
    MoeJay
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭MoeJay


    I agree, however the IAA have been particularly enthusiastic about this from the start...don't recall anyone else getting this type of press release...

    https://www.iaa.ie/news/2015/11/13/the-irish-aviation-authority-strongly-supports-the-introduction-of-a-new-route-from-cork-to-boston

    And I bring it up solely in the context of an authority whose existence is necessarily neutral about the strictly commercial aspects of airline ops...


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    #1030
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    In fairness, getting transatlantic routes operating out of Cork is a major win for the government and the people of Cork and a step in the right direction of supporting balanced regional development. So hardly surprising that they would trumpet it.


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    #1031
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,140 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    bk wrote: »
    In fairness, getting transatlantic routes operating out of Cork is a major win for the government and the people of Cork and a step in the right direction of supporting balanced regional development. So hardly surprising that they would trumpet it.

    I don't see how it's a major win, to have such an effort put into a measly little 3 weekly flight to some back arse airport is rather pathetic, I'd had to see what they could have gotten if they focused on Corks strength's, European destinations. Of course this fantasy of the big America flight has been going on for years.

    Also, I don't see how a 3x weekly flight promotes regional development. I really really don't.


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    #1032
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    I and approx. 180 other people were happy to travel from one remote airport to another remote airport last week; Hahn and Kerry.

    Your viewpoint will only be valid when proved correct by Norwegian's inability to fill a plane between two points you consider to be remote. So far there is no evidence of that.


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    #1033
    MoeJay
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭MoeJay


    bk wrote: »
    In fairness, getting transatlantic routes operating out of Cork is a major win for the government and the people of Cork and a step in the right direction of supporting balanced regional development. So hardly surprising that they would trumpet it.

    In fact I believe it is extremely surprising that they (as the regulatory authority) would trumpet any one particular route at all.


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    #1034
    1123heavy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    MoeJay wrote: »
    In fact I believe it is extremely surprising that they (as the regulatory authority) would trumpet any one particular route at all.

    I concur, I couldn't imagine the UK CAA celebrating any airline starting any route and unless I'm mistaken they would view it as absolutely nothing to do with them


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    #1035
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-norwegian-air-strategy-insight-idUSKBN1AA1MR


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    #1036
    Blut2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-norwegian-air-strategy-insight-idUSKBN1AA1MR

    Interesting article. It sounds like they're extremely stretched, at a time when the airline industry in general is having a bumper time of it. If theres another downturn they'll be dead in the water quite quickly.


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    #1037
    jjbrien
    Registered Users Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭jjbrien


    Blut2 wrote: »
    Interesting article. It sounds like they're extremely stretched, at a time when the airline industry in general is having a bumper time of it. If theres another downturn they'll be dead in the water quite quickly.

    I wouldn't think so if theirs another downturn it will be to LCC's advantage as people will want the cheapest flights. But I think they should stop spending for a bit and shore up the old balance sheet. But there is competition heading their way so they need to be careful.


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    #1038
    1123heavy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    jjbrien wrote: »
    I wouldn't think so if theirs another downturn it will be to LCC's advantage as people will want the cheapest flights. But I think they should stop spending for a bit and shore up the old balance sheet. But there is competition heading their way so they need to be careful.

    People always want the cheapest flights, good and bad times don't necessarily dictate that.


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    #1039
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    jjbrien wrote: »
    I wouldn't think so if theirs another downturn it will be to LCC's advantage as people will want the cheapest flights. But I think they should stop spending for a bit and shore up the old balance sheet. But there is competition heading their way so they need to be careful.

    The particular problem Norwegian faces is that it has a high debt/equity ratio, and limited scope to raise equity in light of falling share price and significant level of shorts on its stock - the limits the ability of underwriters to underwrite an equity raise. The CEO is the largest shareholder but has limited ability to support an equity raise. Then together with a large order book (i.e. further pending debt or termination payments) means that it would find a downturn difficult.


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    #1040
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    1123heavy wrote: »
    I concur, I couldn't imagine the UK CAA celebrating any airline starting any route and unless I'm mistaken they would view it as absolutely nothing to do with them

    Yeah, instead they have articles like this:
    Amazon and the UK Civil Aviation Authority Announce Winner of 'Design a Drone' Competition

    https://www.caa.co.uk/News/Amazon-and-the-UK-Civil-Aviation-Authority-Announce-Winner-of--Design-a-Drone--Competition/

    Which is hilarious as only a year earlier they had articles on them fining Amazon for transporting batteries!

    Seems like they are quiet happy to cozy up to corporate sponsors when it suits them!


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    #1041
    1123heavy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    bk wrote: »
    Yeah, instead they have articles like this:



    https://www.caa.co.uk/News/Amazon-and-the-UK-Civil-Aviation-Authority-Announce-Winner-of--Design-a-Drone--Competition/

    Which is hilarious as only a year earlier they had articles on them fining Amazon for transporting batteries!

    Seems like they are quiet happy to cozy up to corporate sponsors when it suits them!

    From the article ... "Over 1,700 students participated in the competition from across the UK.

    Hannah M of Fourtowns Primary School in Ballymena, Northern Ireland was awarded the top spot for designing her Flying Cheetah drone    "

    The article referenced is about a drone competition for primary school students, not sure on the similarity.

    It is a bit different to advertising a multi billion pound commercial airline company in my opinion at least.


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    #1042
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    1123heavy the point was that only a year earlier the CAA were writing articles about fining Amazon! Seems like the CAA are just as happy to go in for a bit of corporate sponsorship.


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    #1043
    MoeJay
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭MoeJay


    I'm not sure that this is about whether xAA is better than any other xAA.

    We have been told again and again about how the IAA represents the highest standards of what aviation authorities are meant to represent yet I find it odd that in all of the airline decisions that are taken, the only one that they see fit to make any comment on is NAI, which coincidentally received massive political support up to the very highest level.

    I don't find it appropriate, they shouldn't have commented at all. Then they give Kjos an award to which he remarks.."and a very special thank you to Eamonn Brennan from the IAA for all his assistance."

    What does that mean?


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    #1044
    Sesame
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Sesame


    I'm just back from a return trip to Stewart, I said I'd update when I got back.
    It was great, no complaints at all. Staff in Shannon were very eager to please so seated my family in a whole row with empty middle aisle seats.
    Seats were not the most comfortable with not much cushioning. We paid for one piece of luggage but it was far below the allowance and looking back now, I wouldn't have bothered as we were well within cabin allowances and they were not fussy about sizes or weights of these.
    The plane was the 737-800 there and back. Had free wifi all the way on the return but it was patchy going over.
    TVs were grand, mostly Friends episodes and cartoons. The internal network on my phone was informative with tracker map and time remaining (even though it said Time remaining to Oslo!).
    The food that people paid for didn't look great and definitely not worth €30, glad I didn't buy it. The on board menu was not too expensive although we were well equipped so went without. Coffee was $3, sandwich $7 as far as I remember.
    Steward has a Quinzos sandwich bar which is miles better than Subway. Get the steak one for the plane, really good.
    We rented a car from Stewart, all the staff there are very friendly and helpful, not like the NY city crowd.
    Both flights on time and for €69 each way I was very impressed
    We got the Shortline bus from NYC back to Stewart. Again, excellent service and friendly personal driver. We could chose any of the buses that day after booking. I liked that flexibility.


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    #1045
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    €69 is an introductory fare. Price what it is worth to you normally? €79, €89, €99.
    At what point does it stop being good value?


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    #1046
    sparrowcar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,824 ✭✭✭sparrowcar


    Sesame wrote: »
    I'm just back from a return trip to Stewart, I said I'd update when I got back.
    It was great, no complaints at all. Staff in Shannon were very eager to please so seated my family in a whole row with empty middle aisle seats.
    Seats were not the most comfortable with not much cushioning. We paid for one piece of luggage but it was far below the allowance and looking back now, I wouldn't have bothered as we were well within cabin allowances and they were not fussy about sizes or weights of these.
    The plane was the 737-800 there and back. Had free wifi all the way on the return but it was patchy going over.
    TVs were grand, mostly Friends episodes and cartoons. The internal network on my phone was informative with tracker map and time remaining (even though it said Time remaining to Oslo!).
    The food that people paid for didn't look great and definitely not worth €30, glad I didn't buy it. The on board menu was not too expensive although we were well equipped so went without. Coffee was $3, sandwich $7 as far as I remember.
    Steward has a Quinzos sandwich bar which is miles better than Subway. Get the steak one for the plane, really good.
    We rented a car from Stewart, all the staff there are very friendly and helpful, not like the NY city crowd.
    Both flights on time and for €69 each way I was very impressed
    We got the Shortline bus from NYC back to Stewart. Again, excellent service and friendly personal driver. We could chose any of the buses that day after booking. I liked that flexibility.

    Reports like that confirm why Norwegian plan to expand Irish ops already. So far it's a roaring successs. Fair play to them.


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    #1047
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,140 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    sparrowcar wrote: »
    Reports like that confirm why Norwegian plan to expand Irish ops already. So far it's a roaring successs. Fair play to them.

    Really? A roaring success? Can we be realistic?

    A €69 fare is what the above report is based on, you won't make money on this,, plus cancellations and fuel stops make the service beginnings far from a roaring success. PAX numbers may be doing well, however I'd wager that they're making a nice loss in these first few weeks of operation. However this may be turned around. Shares in Norwegian have not fallen sharply for no reason.

    NAI will, in my opinion be skeptical for a while before growing. If they do then great, but you can't just make any statement.


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    #1048
    J.pilkington
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭J.pilkington


    sparrowcar wrote: »
    Reports like that confirm why Norwegian plan to expand Irish ops already. So far it's a roaring successs. Fair play to them.

    OP mentions empty seats so hardly a "roaring success"!


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    #1049
    sparrowcar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,824 ✭✭✭sparrowcar


    JCX BXC wrote: »
    Really? A roaring success? Can we be realistic?

    A €69 fare is what the above report is based on, you won't make money on this,, plus cancellations and fuel stops make the service beginnings far from a roaring success. PAX numbers may be doing well, however I'd wager that they're making a nice loss in these first few weeks of operation. However this may be turned around. Shares in Norwegian have not fallen sharply for no reason.

    NAI will, in my opinion be skeptical for a while before growing. If they do then great, but you can't just make any statement.

    So far it is a roaring success, full book loads and largely happy passengers.
    Granted some teething issues as with any start up. The expansion is already well in advance planning. Also what makes you think a loss is being made, not all seats were sold for €69. You can't just make any wager.


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    #1050
    sparrowcar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,824 ✭✭✭sparrowcar


    J.pilkington wrote: »
    OP mentions empty seats so hardly a "roaring success"!

    A/C is weight restricted to 154 seats so empty seats not relevant in case.


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    #1051
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,140 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    sparrowcar wrote: »
    So far it is a roaring success, full book loads and largely happy passengers.
    Granted some teething issues as with any start up. The expansion is already well in advance planning. Also what makes you think a loss is being made, not all seats were sold for €69. You can't just make any wager.

    Full book loads? I've heard loads have been around 140 per flight on the good flights, not full.

    Plus, I never said all seats were sold for €69. However it is clear that most seats are being sold quite cheaply, and considering legacy airlines struggle selling seats at €400-€500, I can't imagine Norwegian are doing very well whatsoever. It's also midsummer, if they're not doing amazingly well now, how will they do outside the high season and into the low season?

    Then, again, there is the tumbling share price, backing up my assertion.

    They may well become a success, but it's quite clear that they're not the roaring success you so desperately want them to be quite yet.


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