Do you invest?

Brian201888 · 26-04-2019 4:14pm

So do I only pay tax when I sell the shares? Let's say the coca cola example if I buy 75k worth of shares and reinvest the dividend when do I pay tax?

Brian201888 · 26-04-2019 4:16pm

And I assume I'm right in saying that if I'm not maxing my tax relief on pension contributions then looking at any other investment is daft?

beejee · 26-04-2019 4:25pm

Brian201888 wrote: »

So do I only pay tax when I sell the shares? Let's say the coca cola example if I buy 75k worth of shares and reinvest the dividend when do I pay tax?

It's complicated (overly complicated) in ireland.

As someone else said, the idea of paying tax on top of taxed money is ludicrous. Basically you'll have to audit yourself every year, and profits are taxable. There are loopholes for avoiding this through the likes of drips and scrips internationally but again it's a major pain in the hole.

Balanadan · 26-04-2019 4:29pm

There's a lot of people that hope to make a quick buck from investing, there's an industry there to take advantage of that. You might get lucky, you might not. Just like people who frequent bookmakers, you'll hear more about their wins than their losses.

As for making your money work for you, it varies from person to person as to what's the right thing to do, everybody has different risk profiles. I know people, who normally have a strong appetite for risk, that have significant sums in low interest savings accounts at the moment, with little invested in markets because they want to have liquidity for other opportunities.

If you ever want your head to melt, read some of the stupidity on investment forums. People who give share tips like you might get a tip on a horse. "I think the share price will go to X" (probably because that would make them money and they like that number). I remember someone telling me about a company 8 years ago, predicted to go to the moon in a short space of time, it's now trading at approx 75% of its value at that time and to date hasn't got off the ground. There are still a bunch of die hards discussing that company on an investment forum predicting great things to come. That may happen. There may also be (further) dilution.

dotsman · 26-04-2019 4:41pm

Balanadan wrote: »

There's a lot of people that hope to make a quick buck from investing, there's an industry there to take advantage of that. You might get lucky, you might not. Just like people who frequent bookmakers, you'll hear more about their wins than their losses.

As for making your money work for you, it varies from person to person as to what's the right thing to do, everybody has different risk profiles. I know people, who normally have a strong appetite for risk, that have significant sums in low interest savings accounts at the moment, with little invested in markets because they want to have liquidity for other opportunities.

If you ever want your head to melt, read some of the stupidity on investment forums. People who give share tips like you might get a tip on a horse. "I think the share price will go to X" (probably because that would make them money and they like that number). I remember someone telling me about a company 8 years ago, predicted to go to the moon in a short space of time, it's now trading at approx 75% of its value at that time and to date hasn't got off the ground. There are still a bunch of die hards discussing that company on an investment forum predicting great things to come. That may happen. There may also be (further) dilution.

Anyone looking for a quick buck is gambling. Anyone investing sensibly is making money.

Investing, while still absolutely dependent on risk/chance, is the opposite of gambling. With gambling, you may win, but are statistically going to lose. With investing, you may lose some, but are statistically going to win. Investing in a diversified portfolio over the long run will make you a decent return.

NeonWolf · 26-04-2019 5:24pm

valoren wrote: »

Yes. Long term investor in blue chips. You have to hold stocks for the long term to get the benefit of the compounding. Many rent stocks, speculate in whatever is hot, buying high, selling low. Exponential growth is beautiful over the long term and the crux of proper investing. It's the reason why someone like American Grace Goner, a secretary for Abbott Labs in the 1940's can buy 3 shares of Abbott and become a multi millionaire 50 years later. It's all about getting fair value for me for companies that will never go away, investing savings in them, putting money to work, reinvesting dividends, sitting on your hole, plowing in when the **** hits the fan*, holding firm waiting for that inevitable exponential growth that takes decades to happen but will happen due to simple mathematics.

Speculating is a different ball game altogether. To me that's trading, greater fool territory.

Currently hold (with no intention of selling); AbbVie, Altria, Shell, Exxon Mobil, Disney, Johnson & Johnson, Starbucks, Berkshire Hathaway, Boeing, Intel and AT&T. All good dividend paying stocks (except Berkshire) bought at fair value. You can falsify accounting but you can't fake cold hard cash.

Altria dropped 5% yesterday. The same old short-termism that people won't be smoking anymore. Turns out Altira (formerly Phillip Morris) was the best investment of the 20th Century. I will be buying more shares later. Our two year old daughter has Johnson & Johnson, Exxon, Disney, 3M and Berkshire Hathaway. Any cash gifts, allowances will be invested for her. By the time she is 20 she'll hopefully have a minimum of $100k compounding away, the dividends reinvested, and by the time she is middle aged, she'll be a millionaire. She's only 2 and owns a stake in those businesses. She watches the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse and she owns a stake in the company who made it. Something cool about that. Her sibling is due in September and will also have their own investment account.

We don't even have ISA's in Ireland. We're just not an investing society. It's a bug bear to me to be honest. I grew up less than a mile from where Apple's european headquarters are. Apple, one of the most successful investments in recent years, and I never owned one damn share of them. It never seemed like something you could do as Investing was something rich people did and they did it with ridiculously expensive stock brokers who creamed it on fee's and commissions.

* those companies aren't going away, and stock market panics are in actuality stocks on sale. The stock market is the only market where when the prices drop almost everyone runs out of the shop.

How does one go about this? Do people just use the plus 500 app?
Where do you invest and how do you check the progress of your stocks and how do you "cash out"?

valoren · 26-04-2019 5:54pm

NeonWolf wrote: »

valoren wrote: »

Yes. Long term investor in blue chips. You have to hold stocks for the long term to get the benefit of the compounding. Many rent stocks, speculate in whatever is hot, buying high, selling low. Exponential growth is beautiful over the long term and the crux of proper investing. It's the reason why someone like American Grace Goner, a secretary for Abbott Labs in the 1940's can buy 3 shares of Abbott and become a multi millionaire 50 years later. It's all about getting fair value for me for companies that will never go away, investing savings in them, putting money to work, reinvesting dividends, sitting on your hole, plowing in when the **** hits the fan*, holding firm waiting for that inevitable exponential growth that takes decades to happen but will happen due to simple mathematics.

Speculating is a different ball game altogether. To me that's trading, greater fool territory.

Currently hold (with no intention of selling); AbbVie, Altria, Shell, Exxon Mobil, Disney, Johnson & Johnson, Starbucks, Berkshire Hathaway, Boeing, Intel and AT&T. All good dividend paying stocks (except Berkshire) bought at fair value. You can falsify accounting but you can't fake cold hard cash.

Altria dropped 5% yesterday. The same old short-termism that people won't be smoking anymore. Turns out Altira (formerly Phillip Morris) was the best investment of the 20th Century. I will be buying more shares later. Our two year old daughter has Johnson & Johnson, Exxon, Disney, 3M and Berkshire Hathaway. Any cash gifts, allowances will be invested for her. By the time she is 20 she'll hopefully have a minimum of $100k compounding away, the dividends reinvested, and by the time she is middle aged, she'll be a millionaire. She's only 2 and owns a stake in those businesses. She watches the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse and she owns a stake in the company who made it. Something cool about that. Her sibling is due in September and will also have their own investment account.

We don't even have ISA's in Ireland. We're just not an investing society. It's a bug bear to me to be honest. I grew up less than a mile from where Apple's european headquarters are. Apple, one of the most successful investments in recent years, and I never owned one damn share of them. It never seemed like something you could do as Investing was something rich people did and they did it with ridiculously expensive stock brokers who creamed it on fee's and commissions.

* those companies aren't going away, and stock market panics are in actuality stocks on sale. The stock market is the only market where when the prices drop almost everyone runs out of the shop.

How does one go about this? Do people just use the plus 500 app?
Where do you invest and how do you check the progress of your stocks and how do you "cash out"?

Degiro account. They offer accounts for minors too.

dotsman · 26-04-2019 5:55pm

NeonWolf wrote: »

How does one go about this? Do people just use the plus 500 app?
Where do you invest and how do you check the progress of your stocks and how do you "cash out"?

My understanding of plus500 is that it is for CFDs etc. Which is basically just gambling.

For me, I use DeGiro. It's introduction to Ireland opened up the doorway for small-medium Irish investors to invest safely (ie a diversified portfolio).

AVOID the "traditional" Irish stockbrokers.

Beasty · 26-04-2019 6:07pm

I've a nice cross section of investment types. I've savings and plans that invest in stock market equity, with a variety of markets and risk profiles. I've property assets in the UK and Ireland. I also hold cash in both jurisdictions. Then I have precious metals - gold, platinum and silver, in the form of bullion, plus some commemorative coins

Over time I've seen pretty much every class of asset increase in value. My dad died last year and I had bought his flat for him, and when I sold that a couple of months ago it was at a loss of £5k. However I bought a holiday home in Cornwall 15 years ago which is now let out and I reckon that's doubled in value

The "investments" that arguably will have increased in value most are some football medals I acquired 10-15 years ago. They are probably worth 3+ times what I paid for them, and I reckon in another decade could double in value again. Some of these are unique.

I've other football, cricket and music memorabilia - about half a dozen examples of Bowie's autograph on limited edition prints (such as the Ziggy Stardust and Hunky Dory album covers) and books, with plenty of others including limited edition artwork by the likes of Ronnie Wood. Other limited edition biographies include George Harrison, Lou Reed and indeed some who are still alive such as Ringo Starr and Mick Fleetwood

I also have a copy of the Man United Opus, weighing in at 37kg, and a similar (but lighter, probably weighing in at nearer 10kg) one signed by Pele

Some of my football memorabilia is lent to the National Football Museum in Manchester where it's on display for others, and they insure it. I do enjoy collecting things that I'm passionate about, and typically I'm collecting at a level that will provide quite significant investment returns

Shai · 26-04-2019 7:06pm

Brian201888 wrote: »

And I assume I'm right in saying that if I'm not maxing my tax relief on pension contributions then looking at any other investment is daft?

yes. Max out pension contributions first. They're tax-free.

Shai · 26-04-2019 7:10pm

Brian201888 wrote: »

So do I only pay tax when I sell the shares? Let's say the coca cola example if I buy 75k worth of shares and reinvest the dividend when do I pay tax?

You pay income tax on the dividends (even when you reinvest). When you sell your shares, you pay capital gains tax on the profits above 1270 euro. If you sell your shares at a loss, you can use this to offset future capital gains.

If you buy European (UCITS) ETFs (an ETF is essentially an index fund) you also have an 8-year deemed disposal tax. If you buy US ETFs, you don't, as US ETFs are treated as shares by the tax man. This also means that if you sell a US ETF at a loss, you can use this to offset future capital gains. Selling UCITS ETFs at a loss however, does not always allow you to use all of your losses to offset future gains. The rules around this are a bit too complicated for me to go into right now.

Klonker · 26-04-2019 7:38pm

Not invested in anything directly.

Took out a mortgage recently enough so any extra money at the moment will go towards that and I'm also maxed out on my pension contributions (20% of gross salary). When mortgage is finally paid of in over 10 years time then I can start to think about investing.

Pac1Man · 26-04-2019 8:51pm

To those in the know, would you invest or throw a lump sum off the mortgage each year?

mulbot · 26-04-2019 9:03pm

Pac1Man wrote: »

To those in the know, would you invest or throw a lump sum off the mortgage each year?

Both if possible,personally I'd opt for the earlier payment of mortgage if I'd to choose.Depends on a few other factors really but I'd love the mortgage finished and plan to do so well before the finish time.

dotsman · 26-04-2019 9:09pm

Shai wrote: »

yes. Max out pension contributions first. They're tax-free.

I can see where you are coming from, but it's nowhere near as black & white. Yes, everybody should have a healthy pension fund. But I wouldn't recommend maxing out contributions at the expense of other savings & investments. Pension funds are for when you retire. For many people (and it really depends on their current life stage) have other financial needs that they need to save for now, but need to cash in long before retirement, such as a deposit for a house, wedding, car, starting a business, rainy-day fund, general life savings.

For example, a person will be typically better off in the long run saving to buy a house in 2 years rather than saving slowly (and putting the rest of their excess money into a pension fund) to buy a house in 6 years. That's 4 years of rent saved automatically, and likely buying the house at a lower price. That's far more beneficial than the tax-deduct-ability of the pension contributions that you may benefit when you retire (if you live to that age!)

vargoo · 26-04-2019 11:18pm

dotsman wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from, but it's nowhere near as black & white. Yes, everybody should have a healthy pension fund. But I wouldn't recommend maxing out contributions at the expense of other savings & investments. Pension funds are for when you retire. For many people (and it really depends on their current life stage) have other financial needs that they need to save for now, but need to cash in long before retirement, such as a deposit for a house, wedding, car, starting a business, rainy-day fund, general life savings.

For example, a person will be typically better off in the long run saving to buy a house in 2 years rather than saving slowly (and putting the rest of their excess money into a pension fund) to buy a house in 6 years. That's 4 years of rent saved automatically, and likely buying the house at a lower price. That's far more beneficial than the tax-deduct-ability of the pension contributions that you may benefit when you retire (if you live to that age!)

Yea, I just put in minimum myself for work to match and that's it. And if I don't stay for minimum 2 years after starting this work one they take back what they put in. You pay Prsi and USC on contributions and you can be damn sure the tax free lump will be well reduced/gone in the future.
The most popular US one is taxed going in so they know what it's worth.

PLUS, you could be dead is a Biggie.

I'll find somewhere else to put it.

greencap · 26-04-2019 11:35pm

Don't know where to start.

Do I go to the stock shop or something?

Dial-a-stock?

Get them in argos?

FFred · 27-04-2019 3:14am

Live for the moment. Or be a rich pensioner.

27-04-2019 7:51am

This is gonna sound a bit stupid but I invested in myself. I took my savings, took a year off to finish a website, and now I have a business making decent money that requires very little work. It never would have gotten done without that time off.

Poochie05 · 27-04-2019 9:42am

I tried the stock markets through a Rabo Investment account way back when. Didn’t do much moving of money around, chose a mix of bonds and stock funds and just left it there.
Dipped during the crash but picked back up after and when I had to cash them in a few years ago when they withdrew from Ireland I had almost doubled my initial (very small) investment. No idea if that was good or bad but remember taking a sharp intake of breath when it came to tax return time as they were taxed like offshore investments so was a fair chunk of the money I had to give back. Still payed for a nice holiday with the rest though.
But I really haven’t a clue so sticking to pension and property now.

ancapailldorcha · 27-04-2019 9:45am

dotsman wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from, but it's nowhere near as black & white. Yes, everybody should have a healthy pension fund. But I wouldn't recommend maxing out contributions at the expense of other savings & investments. Pension funds are for when you retire. For many people (and it really depends on their current life stage) have other financial needs that they need to save for now, but need to cash in long before retirement, such as a deposit for a house, wedding, car, starting a business, rainy-day fund, general life savings.

For example, a person will be typically better off in the long run saving to buy a house in 2 years rather than saving slowly (and putting the rest of their excess money into a pension fund) to buy a house in 6 years. That's 4 years of rent saved automatically, and likely buying the house at a lower price. That's far more beneficial than the tax-deduct-ability of the pension contributions that you may benefit when you retire (if you live to that age!)

I've a pension as well. I've also managed to stay debt free.

My family have been talking about investing but I've no idea into what. Property might be one option but I know sod all about it.

PhilOssophy · 27-04-2019 10:04am

In my humble view, the order of priority in terms of investments is
1. Get debt free as quickly as possible. Overpay on mortgage - you'll do well to get the 3-4% guaranteed elsewhere. No point having money earning 1-2% on deposit and paying 3-4% on a mortgage.
2. Pension, pension, pension. It is the most tax efficient use of your money.
3. If you've more then, beyond that, then you look at investing.

I'm definitely looking for a longer term strategy to take the rises and falls in the stock markets, and I'd only ever invest what I am willing to lose. I've a few bob now that I am wanting to see if I can make it work harder - but sure when you've to pay tax on any gain it debatable in its worth.

Danger781 · 27-04-2019 10:25am

I just want to say thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. It was an incredibly interesting read and opened my mind to many new possibilities that I honestly wasn't even aware were available to me.

As for me my pension contributions are invested on my behalf via the management company. This thread has reminded me that I need to query whether I'm investing maximum contribution or not.. and how my investments are doing.

I also have share options with the company I work for. Not much good to me until they go for IPO and I can actually sell the share options. That also assumes the purchase price outlined in the agreement would actually net me any profit. During my next review I intend on asking for more share options as well.

Other than that I invested in crypto December 2017 and I'm currently down about €650 with no signs of it bouncing back. Some FOMO investments and bad decisions got me to this point.

I've seen numerous people mentioned DeGiro. Is the consensus that DeGiro is the best platform for investing in stocks / shares? Has anyone written a "DeGiro for noobs" guide on boards?

Sugar Free · 27-04-2019 10:38am

Danger781 wrote: »

I've seen numerous people mentioned DeGiro. Is the consensus that DeGiro is the best platform for investing in stocks / shares? Has anyone written a "DeGiro for noobs" guide on boards?

For the relatively passive, long-term investor it’s probably the easiest and cheapest to use. There’s more advice on using it in the Investments & Markets forum here.

mulbot · 27-04-2019 10:43am

Danger781 wrote: »

I just want to say thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. It was an incredibly interesting read and opened my mind to many new possibilities that I honestly wasn't even aware were available to me.

As for me my pension contributions are invested on my behalf via the management company. This thread has reminded me that I need to query whether I'm investing maximum contribution or not.. and how my investments are doing.

I also have share options with the company I work for. Not much good to me until they go for IPO and I can actually sell the share options. That also assumes the purchase price outlined in the agreement would actually net me any profit. During my next review I intend on asking for more share options as well.

Other than that I invested in crypto December 2017 and I'm currently down about €650 with no signs of it bouncing back. Some FOMO investments and bad decisions got me to this point.

I've seen numerous people mentioned DeGiro. Is the consensus that DeGiro is the best platform for investing in stocks / shares? Has anyone written a "DeGiro for noobs" guide on boards?

I find DeGiro very very good and very easy to use. I think you can find some good YouTube videos regarding DeGiro which might help you get going.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 27-04-2019 10:45am

Sugar Free wrote: »

For the relatively passive, long-term investor it’s probably the easiest and cheapest to use. There’s more advice on using it in the Investments & Markets forum here.

+1 on the Investments Forum. There is excellent, practical, honest, and straightforward advice there.

Table Top Joe · 27-04-2019 11:01am

Danger781 wrote: »

I just want to say thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. It was an incredibly interesting read and opened my mind to many new possibilities that I honestly wasn't even aware were available to me.

Me too!......I’ve been interested in investing awhile now but it’s a bit daunting knowing where to start, this thread has given me the kick up the arse to look into it seriously.

I found a link on YouTube that looks quite good regarding Degiro https://youtu.be/FzUzYsQEKf8

I get stock from Apple (my employer) but haven’t a clue how to buy any other stock, I don’t have loads of money but I’d like what I do have to be doing more than just sitting there losing value.

Mad_maxx · 27-04-2019 11:13am

PhilOssophy wrote: »

In my humble view, the order of priority in terms of investments is
1. Get debt free as quickly as possible. Overpay on mortgage - you'll do well to get the 3-4% guaranteed elsewhere. No point having money earning 1-2% on deposit and paying 3-4% on a mortgage.
2. Pension, pension, pension. It is the most tax efficient use of your money.
3. If you've more then, beyond that, then you look at investing.

I'm definitely looking for a longer term strategy to take the rises and falls in the stock markets, and I'd only ever invest what I am willing to lose. I've a few bob now that I am wanting to see if I can make it work harder - but sure when you've to pay tax on any gain it debatable in its worth.

There is a wide held belief out there that " being debt free" is the holy grail

It's an over rated ambition largely speaking, debt is not a bad thing and essential to increasing wealth

Mad_maxx · 27-04-2019 11:15am

Sugar Free wrote: »

For the relatively passive, long-term investor it’s probably the easiest and cheapest to use. There’s more advice on using it in the Investments & Markets forum here.

I'm with saxo, anyone thinking of opening a brokerage account, avoid the big two Irish firms like the plague, what they charge is nothing short of extortionate

Mad_maxx · 27-04-2019 11:16am

Lilyana Great Abalone wrote: »

+1 on the Investments Forum. There is excellent, practical, honest, and straightforward advice there.

Actually it's pretty poor, most of the active threads are about penny stocks

Do you invest?

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