Do you invest?

ancapailldorcha

Following on from the money thread, I'm wondering if anyone here is investing in the stock market, cryptocurrencies or anything like that.

I'm not. I've no idea how any of that craic works.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I did, when building up my pension fund, but nowadays it's all cash based or guaranteed safe returns. It's a risky business and needs to be viewed as a long term operation.

ancapailldorcha

Lilyana Great Abalone wrote: »

I did, when building up my pension fund, but nowadays it's all cash based or guaranteed safe returns. It's a risky business and needs to be viewed as a long term operation.

That's what puts me off. I save and pay into a pension. I have no debt but I have no confidence in the work pension plan. It's excellent if it lasts long enough.

Sugar Free

I do. Majority goes into a couple of ETFs tracking the S&P500 and another index. I keep a small cash reserve to buy-in to something else if the opportunity arises. Very much a buy-and-hold, fire & forget strategy for the most part.

I've a couple of holdings in a former company and my current company also.

I don't live in Ireland though and the laws where I am are more favorable towards individual investors (no CGT most of the time and most importantly for the ETFs, no bullsh*t 8 year deemed disposal to deal with).

EmmetSpiceland

Of course, only a fool wouldn’t make their money work for them.

I avoid cryptocurrencies just as I avoid any other scams or Ponzi schemes.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Cajones deep in Bitcoin and Ethereum.

ancapailldorcha

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Of course, only a fool wouldn’t make their money work for them.

I avoid cryptocurrencies just as I avoid any other scams or Ponzi schemes.

A lot of people aren't really aware of even how to invest and so just squirrel money away.

Regarding crytocurrencies, I completely agree though. Far too wild IMO.

mulbot

Mainly stocks, want to get into the ETF's, and small bit of crypto, I also buy into commodities.

EmmetSpiceland

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

A lot of people aren't really aware of even how to invest and so just squirrel money away.

Regarding crytocurrencies, I completely agree though. Far too wild IMO.

For those who don’t follow the markets I wouldn’t recommend investing unless they are willing to start monitoring.

Squirrelling away is fine but over the years that money won’t be as valuable as it was and won’t provide returns.

Maybe investing in art or property might be more suited to them but even speaking to someone involved in the markets or joining up to an “investment club” could give them a good idea on how things work.

paw patrol

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Of course, only a fool wouldn’t make their money work for them.

I avoid cryptocurrencies just as I avoid any other scams or Ponzi schemes.

I don't agree apart from my pension which is really long term I don't see too much value in investing in the short/medium term.
Certainly (for me) not worth the opportunity cost of not having the money available in cash form .
So I'm a schumk throwing a few quid into a low interest account for a rainy day.

Put a few quid into crypto - bought litecoin when it was in the sh1tter pre Christmas...looking good now but it was only a few quid nothing major.

I'd get coke and decent whiskey the night on the profit as it stands ....or my wife will buy shoes...(

Dawido

put 1000 euro per month in savings account. 0.90% yield

Purgative

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

A lot of people aren't really aware of even how to invest and so just squirrel money away.

Regarding crytocurrencies, I completely agree though. Far too wild IMO.

I have the same view on the bitcoin thing.


Yesterday I had a really weird thing happen. A window popped up from the Daily Mirror with a story that Richard Branson supposedly on GMTV saying he has this app that deals in these things. Then there were stories from 2 of the journos saying they'd invested £200 and made about £6K after a week and then cashed out.


It struck me as odd.


Anyone else see it?

somesoldiers

Tried my hand at spread betting a few years back, did an expensive course, started trading my own money after lots of practice. Didn’t listen to anything I had learned.
I thought it would be a good idea to sell yen the night of Fukushima...boy was I wrong, yen soared as Japanese investors pulled their savings back home...woke up next morning to a blown up account... never went back to it

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I always say to never forget the power of compound interest.
Even €500 per month at a low 0.75%, after thirty years is in excess of €200,000

Dawido wrote: »

put 1000 euro per month in savings account. 0.90% yield

somesoldiers

Lilyana Great Abalone wrote: »

I always say to never forget the power of compound interest.
Even €500 per month at a low 0.75%, after thirty years is in excess of €200,000

I doubt it’s .9% per month! Be lucky to get that a year these days

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Of course the percentage is an annual rate.

somesoldiers wrote: »

I doubt it’s .9% per month! Be lucky to get that a year these days

Geuze

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's what puts me off. I save and pay into a pension. I have no debt but I have no confidence in the work pension plan. It's excellent if it lasts long enough.

Note that your pension fund is very likely holding shares, bonds and property.

So you indirectly own shares.

facehugger99

Lilyana Great Abalone wrote: »

I always say to never forget the power of compound interest.
Even €500 per month at a low 0.75%, after thirty years is in excess of €200,000

€200,000 in 30 years is only worth the equivalent of around €100,000 in today's money - assuming a similar rate of inflation as over the last 30 years..

bob mcbob

Yes been investing for a while now.

I started out investing in unit trusts (OEICs now). These are wrappers that hold a number of investments in them. If you are just starting out then just drip feeding an amount say 50 quid per month into them. You do not really miss the money and if there a crash then it just means that your money buys more.

After a while doing this, I had the confidence to start buying stocks directly. To do this you need to signup with an (online) broker. If most banks offer this - there are also specialist brokers. It is important to reinvest dividends then you really see the effects of compound growth.

Now I am starting to invest for income, I am looking at investment trusts that invest in property, commodities and infrastructure. They give quite good yields and are no really linked to the stock market.

If you have the money, I would say start. If you are looking for info on it buy some copies of a magazine like investors chronicle.

A piece of advice if you do start, go safe and boring to begin with. Even then you will make mistakes but all in it is worthwhile.

Mad_maxx

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

A lot of people aren't really aware of even how to invest and so just squirrel money away.

Regarding crytocurrencies, I completely agree though. Far too wild IMO.

It's better not to know much as you won't try to be clever and " time the market" etc

Just buy the S+P whenever you can and preferably during a decent pullback, over a few decades, you should see an 8% annual return though some years you will be down 20% and more, some you will be up the same

Passive investing is a sure thing provided you stick to one single rule, be patient.

LollipopJimmy

I started dicking around with shares a while back, looking for long term stuff. I bought a good lump of Ryanair shares when they tumbled

Mad_maxx

somesoldiers wrote: »

Tried my hand at spread betting a few years back, did an expensive course, started trading my own money after lots of practice. Didn’t listen to anything I had learned.
I thought it would be a good idea to sell yen the night of Fukushima...boy was I wrong, yen soared as Japanese investors pulled their savings back home...woke up next morning to a blown up account... never went back to it

Most people are not smart enough to beat the market so stock picking is not worth the risk - reward


Having said that, the tax system is criminally unfair to fund investors, drives people to property in many ways

mikemac2

Fadó fadó (actually 2005) there was a company called Elan with a factory outside Athlone. I've no idea if they still exist. I do remember driving past that factory many times

Their multiple sclerosis wonder drug named Tysberi failed FDA approval in America

The share price tumbled from over 23 euro to 2.50 euro. Was huge news at the time. Guys down the pub who wouldn't know a stock from a racehorse all knew about Elan

I bought in near the bottom and sold around 4.20 which was waaaaaaaaay too early but I lost my nerve. A buddy made vastly more

I don't have the nerves for it, I was checking bloomberg all the time. Made some money and never did it again

Brian201888

It's the tax bit that confuses me

somesoldiers

Another one of my “investments” (get rich quick schemes) was with an Irish guy who set up a current trading system, he had been pretty successful trading his own money , had given up his day job to do it full time and after following him for a while I decided to join. I had met him when he lectured at the course I did.

The deal was i opened an account with an IFSc based spread betting company, only I could withdraw money from it but the account mirrored trading in his own account. There were many other account holders too. He took a percentage of any profits, it started off well enough....until

he started losing, he began doing crazy stuff, riding out losses, allowing single trades to be > 10% of the account etc he kept saying it will get better,it never did....

I have no doubt his intentions were genuine, all that ended up happening was he lost me 60% of my account and god knows how much for others and damaged his own reputation

Aongus Von Bismarck

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Of course, only a fool wouldn’t make their money work for them.

I avoid cryptocurrencies just as I avoid any other scams or Ponzi schemes.

Of course cryptocurrency is an elaborate scam designed to part real money from gullible 'investors' in return for worthless tokens. It's a scam for the internet age, and it targets the same people who have always been scammed - greedy idiots who think they can become wealthy by doing very little.

However it's incorrect to say people didn't make money from it. I work in banking here in Germany, and we heard about this bitcoin thing back in 2013. We were playing our monthly poker game and decided to buy some of them as a joke for a member of our C-Suite. Circumstances meant we never got to give them to him, and they were quickly forgotten about.

However the whole hysteria around crypto emerged in late 2017, and we sold them for $14700 a pop. This wasn't the peak of the bubble, but better to get out and take your profits, than be left being a bag-holder of virtual beany babies. Not bad, considering we bought them for just over $60 a pop!

Paid my taxes owed on the profits, and managed to purchase a beautiful holiday home in West Cork with the profits. Had enough left over to pick up a beautiful painting for the home, and membership of a local golf club.

Wouldn't go near them again. There's an idea that traditional banking is terrified of crypto - this isn't true. Or that there's institutional money flooding into crypto - there isn't. It's greasy computer nerds and spiteful libertarians trying to offload crap on each other for more than they bought it for.

orourkeda1977

I invest in pints

fullstop

Calliope Many Battery wrote: »

Fair play....considering in one of your other previous posts you said you were only earning 32k

Taking home nearly €2300 a month, that's pretty easy to save €1000 if you're paying little or no rent.

sk8erboii

Leandro Incalculable Pimple wrote: »

Cajones deep in Bitcoin and Ethereum.

I too like to gamble

sk8erboii

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Of course, only a fool wouldn’t make their money work for them.

I avoid cryptocurrencies just as I avoid any other scams or Ponzi schemes.

pyramid schemes will make you rich if you get in early

Sugar Free

mikemac2 wrote: »

Fadó fadó (actually 2005) there was a company called Elan with a factory outside Athlone. I've no idea if they still exist. I do remember driving past that factory many times

Their multiple sclerosis wonder drug named Tysberi failed FDA approval in America

FYI, Elan were taken over by Perrigo about 6 years ago. Tysabri is marketed in both the U.S. and Europe but with specific restrictions.

PinotNero

Trans-Atlantic Zeppelin, Amalgamated Spats, Congreves Inflammable Powders, US Hay and that up-and-coming Baltimore Opera Hat Company.

Dohnjoe

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Of course cryptocurrency is an elaborate scam designed to part real money from gullible 'investors' in return for worthless tokens. It's a scam for the internet age, and it targets the same people who have always been scammed - greedy idiots who think they can become wealthy by doing very little.

However it's incorrect to say people didn't make money from it. I work in banking here in Germany, and we heard about this bitcoin thing back in 2013. We were playing our monthly poker game and decided to buy some of them as a joke for a member of our C-Suite. Circumstances meant we never got to give them to him, and they were quickly forgotten about.

However the whole hysteria around crypto emerged in late 2017, and we sold them for $14700 a pop. This wasn't the peak of the bubble, but better to get out and take your profits, than be left being a bag-holder of virtual beany babies. Not bad, considering we bought them for just over $60 a pop!

Paid my taxes owed on the profits, and managed to purchase a beautiful holiday home in West Cork with the profits. Had enough left over to pick up a beautiful painting for the home, and membership of a local golf club.

Wouldn't go near them again. There's an idea that traditional banking is terrified of crypto - this isn't true. Or that there's institutional money flooding into crypto - there isn't. It's greasy computer nerds and spiteful libertarians trying to offload crap on each other for more than they bought it for.

I don't disagree with any of this, except I would hazard a guess that when you bought at $60 in 2013 you must have noticed the fact that BTC shot up to $1000 that Christmas (the first big bubble) not to mention being all over the news and financial news, people frantically searching for lost hard drives and all that

I bought around the same time, and still buy from time to time when the market dives hard

JohnnyFlash

I invest in my pension and property.

jester77

Sure, a bank account won't even match inflation so you are losing value by just having it sitting there.

weldoninhio

Purgative wrote: »

I have the same view on the bitcoin thing.


Yesterday I had a really weird thing happen. A window popped up from the Daily Mirror with a story that Richard Branson supposedly on GMTV saying he has this app that deals in these things. Then there were stories from 2 of the journos saying they'd invested £200 and made about £6K after a week and then cashed out.


It struck me as odd.


Anyone else see it?

Sounds legit. I'd pile in on that. Easy money.

PhilOssophy

Lilyana Great Abalone wrote: »

I did, when building up my pension fund, but nowadays it's all cash based or guaranteed safe returns. It's a risky business and needs to be viewed as a long term operation.

Depends on your stage of life. If you are nearing retirement, cash is king. If you are in your 20s, inflation will eat the gains.

The problems with investing are
1. The poor returns
2. Tax, tax, tax
3. Tax, tax, tax.

I fundamentally disagree with paying tax on money made on shares, etc - if I have earned it, I've paid tax on it once.

Crypto's are in the same category as horse/dog racing for me. Only invest what you are happy to lose.

SEPT 23 1989

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I invest in pints

there is no towbar on a hearse

TerrorFirmer

What would be the best thing to do with a relatively small amount of money (let's say 10-20k) rather than having it sitting in a current account?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

What would be the best thing to do with a relatively small amount of money (let's say 10-20k) rather than having it sitting in a current account?

For a tax free guaranteed return there's always State Savings Bonds or Certificates, depending on how long you wish to leave it on deposit.

Other than my pension i just have a small bit i dont mind losing. Chased around for the highest bank rate i could get and move is whereever to offering the most

valoren

Yes. Long term investor in blue chips. You have to hold stocks for the long term to get the benefit of the compounding. Many rent stocks, speculate in whatever is hot, buying high, selling low. Exponential growth is beautiful over the long term and the crux of proper investing. It's the reason why someone like American Grace Goner, a secretary for Abbott Labs in the 1940's can buy 3 shares of Abbott and become a multi millionaire 50 years later. It's all about getting fair value for me for companies that will never go away, investing savings in them, putting money to work, reinvesting dividends, sitting on your hole, plowing in when the **** hits the fan*, holding firm waiting for that inevitable exponential growth that takes decades to happen but will happen due to simple mathematics.

Speculating is a different ball game altogether. To me that's trading, greater fool territory.

Currently hold (with no intention of selling); AbbVie, Altria, Shell, Exxon Mobil, Disney, Johnson & Johnson, Starbucks, Berkshire Hathaway, Boeing, Intel and AT&T. All good dividend paying stocks (except Berkshire) bought at fair value. You can falsify accounting but you can't fake cold hard cash.

Altria dropped 5% yesterday. The same old short-termism that people won't be smoking anymore. Turns out Altira (formerly Phillip Morris) was the best investment of the 20th Century. I will be buying more shares later. Our two year old daughter has Johnson & Johnson, Exxon, Disney, 3M and Berkshire Hathaway. Any cash gifts, allowances will be invested for her. By the time she is 20 she'll hopefully have a minimum of $100k compounding away, the dividends reinvested, and by the time she is middle aged, she'll be a millionaire. She's only 2 and owns a stake in those businesses. She watches the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse and she owns a stake in the company who made it. Something cool about that. Her sibling is due in September and will also have their own investment account.

We don't even have ISA's in Ireland. We're just not an investing society. It's a bug bear to me to be honest. I grew up less than a mile from where Apple's european headquarters are. Apple, one of the most successful investments in recent years, and I never owned one damn share of them. It never seemed like something you could do as Investing was something rich people did and they did it with ridiculously expensive stock brokers who creamed it on fee's and commissions.

* those companies aren't going away, and stock market panics are in actuality stocks on sale. The stock market is the only market where when the prices drop almost everyone runs out of the shop.

EmmetSpiceland

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Of course cryptocurrency is an elaborate scam designed to part real money from gullible 'investors' in return for worthless tokens. It's a scam for the internet age, and it targets the same people who have always been scammed - greedy idiots who think they can become wealthy by doing very little.

That’s it. The desperation of the one left “holding” the “magic beans” trying to get others to buy in smacks of Amway sellers trying to get you to become a salesperson too.

sk8erboii wrote: »

pyramid schemes will make you rich if you get in early

That is certainly true but the keyword there is “early”, the ship is most certainly sinking for the crazy money-making but it seems like the rats, who bought in at the wrong time, are clinging on as opposed to leaving.

Amirani

Yeah, I invest through a pension that is made up primarily of broad-based world equity indices. It's by far the most efficient way to invest in Ireland (not counting family home as investing here).

Policy Review

Purgative wrote: »

I have the same view on the bitcoin thing.


Yesterday I had a really weird thing happen. A window popped up from the Daily Mirror with a story that Richard Branson supposedly on GMTV saying he has this app that deals in these things. Then there were stories from 2 of the journos saying they'd invested £200 and made about £6K after a week and then cashed out.


It struck me as odd.


Anyone else see it?

Yes i've seen similar on FB etc. And all our scams to be honest, sometimes they mentions dragons den stars etc too. Bit of research and most of this apps lock in any funds you put in or rip you off till you have nothing left.

beejee

Its all a gamble, from the more obvious stuff like cryptocurrencies to the likes of drip funds.

Just because something is more convoluted and complex, doesn't make it anything more than sticking a fiver on a greyhound. It just takes longer.

If you lose on your coca cola shares its all "well, obviously it was due to blah blah blah", if you win on a horse its all "well, obviously it was due to blah blah blah". Its all gambling on peoples sentiment (odds), which of course changes with the wind. The result is entirely independent of strategy as you cant strategise sentiment. You can guess, you can make educated guesses, but all youre doing is guessing at the end of the day.

The only thing that is a true investment is 100% knowledge, and that's basically insider trading. Or that you know a sniper is going to shoot all the other horses during the race.

Time is more important than anything else for making money.

Amirani

beejee wrote: »

Its all a gamble, from the more obvious stuff like cryptocurrencies to the likes of drip funds.

Just because something is more convoluted and complex, doesn't make it anything more than sticking a fiver on a greyhound. It just takes longer.

If you lose on your coca cola shares its all "well, obviously it was due to blah blah blah", if you win on a horse its all "well, obviously it was due to blah blah blah". Its all gambling on peoples sentiment (odds), which of course changes with the wind. The result is entirely independent of strategy as you cant strategise sentiment. You can guess, you can make educated guesses, but all youre doing is guessing at the end of the day.

There's a big difference between buying a share in a company and making a bet on a horse. Something like spread betting would be more analogous.

If you buy a share in Coca-Cola, the only way you really "lose on your shares" is if Coca-Cola go bankrupt and are wound up. Outside of these, you always own part of the company and have a claim on any future profits it makes. This is entirely different to having a punt on a horse.

valoren

beejee wrote: »

Its all a gamble, from the more obvious stuff like cryptocurrencies to the likes of drip funds.

Just because something is more convoluted and complex, doesn't make it anything more than sticking a fiver on a greyhound. It just takes longer.

If you lose on your coca cola shares its all "well, obviously it was due to blah blah blah", if you win on a horse its all "well, obviously it was due to blah blah blah". Its all gambling on peoples sentiment (odds), which of course changes with the wind. The result is entirely independent of strategy as you cant strategise sentiment. You can guess, you can make educated guesses, but all youre doing is guessing at the end of the day.

The only thing that is a true investment is 100% knowledge, and that's basically insider trading. Or that you know a sniper is going to shoot all the other horses during the race.

Time is more important than anything else for making money.

That's the thing. To use an analogy of horses there is a form guide. Coca Cola have been paying an annually rising dividend for the past 50 years. I would hazard a guess that they are very likely to pay out next year and considering they are the dominant beverage company they'll probably be paying out for decades to come. Not only that, the payout will be increasing as well i.e. the price of a can of coke in 10.20.30 years will not be what it is today. It might not have the rockstar return of a high growth sexy company that get's speculated to the moon and which ultimately burns people wanting a decent return but it's form is solid, reliable and very boring. The beta of the stocks price will not have the kind of volatility that scares the bejeesus out of you either. It ebbs and flows. Up a percent today, down a few here and there, back to even etc.

Consider someone with €75,000 sitting in a credit union account earning them a minuscule dividend. They could but 1,750 shares in Coke and get €2,130 (after taxes) this year. They could do whatever they wanted with that money and based on the form guide the pay out will increase next year, and the next and the next. Due to the compounding, the secret sauce, the annual payout at some discernible point in future will match and exceed the €75k they invested to begin with. That's the goal of investing. Imagine them adding their savings, combining it with dividend and buying more Coke stock every 3 months without fail and that happens much faster. You will see the whole point of investing soon enough; exponential growth without touching the principal. Sure, the principal (the 75k savings which is put at risk) will fluctuate but over time as you say particularly with the companies that make the world go round you back the right horse because something like Coca Cola is in all probability not going away.

Mad_maxx

beejee wrote: »

Its all a gamble, from the more obvious stuff like cryptocurrencies to the likes of drip funds.

Just because something is more convoluted and complex, doesn't make it anything more than sticking a fiver on a greyhound. It just takes longer.

If you lose on your coca cola shares its all "well, obviously it was due to blah blah blah", if you win on a horse its all "well, obviously it was due to blah blah blah". Its all gambling on peoples sentiment (odds), which of course changes with the wind. The result is entirely independent of strategy as you cant strategise sentiment. You can guess, you can make educated guesses, but all youre doing is guessing at the end of the day.

The only thing that is a true investment is 100% knowledge, and that's basically insider trading. Or that you know a sniper is going to shoot all the other horses during the race.

Time is more important than anything else for making money.

Plenty of common misconceptions there

Mad_maxx

valoren wrote: »

That's the thing. To use an analogy of horses there is a form guide. Coca Cola have been paying an annually rising dividend for the past 50 years. I would hazard a guess that they are very likely to pay out next year and considering they are the dominant beverage company they'll probably be paying out for decades to come. It might not have the rockstar return of a high growth sexy company that get's speculated to the moon but it's form is solid, reliable and boring. The beta of the price will not have the kind of volatility that scares the bejeesus out of you either.

Consider someone with €75,000 sitting in a credit union account earning them a minuscule dividend. They could but 1,750 shares in Coke and get €2,130 this year. They could do whatever they wanted with that money and based on the form guide the pay out will increase next year, and the next and the next. That's investing. Imagine them adding their savings, combining it with dividend and buying more Coke stock every 3 months without fail. You will see the whole point of investing soon enough; exponential growth without touching the principal. Sure, the principal (the 75k savings which is put at risk) will fluctuate but over time as you say particularly with the companies that make the world go round you back the right horse.

Coca cola is more or less like buying AAA bonds, you get your annual dividend - coupon but increase in value is unlikely

Stock has barely moved in years but is ultra low beta, probably dropped less than any blue-chip in 2008

Policy Review

"Those companies aren't going away, and stock market panics are in actuality stocks on sale. The stock market is the only market where when the prices drop almost everyone runs out of the shop."




I just want you to know i'm stealing this, nail on the head right there........