The alt right - Mod Warning in OP

midnight city · 11-12-2016 11:02pm

Brian? wrote: »

No he doesn't. He makes points you happen to agree with. He's an odious man.

Well you can't say that he doesn't then, all you can say is he makes points you disagree with..

Brian? · 12-12-2016 9:31am

midnight city wrote: »

Well you can't say that he doesn't then, all you can say is he makes points you disagree with..

You need to google "logical fallacy".

It's not up to me to prove he doesn't do something. You proposed he made good points, why was that?

I love a good debate. I love good discussion. But when I watch a video that starts with a man denying he's a white supremacist while explaining the supremacy of the white Europeans who founded the US, I can happily dismiss the odious man without debate.

He's a horrible man, with horrible opinions.

Brian? · 12-12-2016 9:34am

Amazingfun wrote: »

Please explain this comment, as in, why you posted it?
For is it not blatantly obvious that he makes points you "happen not to agree with"?

His "points" fail any reasonable test of logic. I don't really need a reasoned argument to dismiss complete nonsense.

If you posited that the moon was made of cheese, would I have to debate you on the relative merits of your ideas? Or could I simply dismiss your idea as the pure nonsense it is.

Special Circumstances · 12-12-2016 9:38am

Brian? wrote: »

His "points" fail any reasonable test of logic. I don't really need a reasoned argument to dismiss complete nonsense.

If you posited that the moon was made of cheese, would I have to debate you on the relative merits of your ideas? Or could I simply dismiss your idea as the pure nonsense it is.

For those of that have an interest in this conversation but don't have time to critique every video thrown out here as example/proof of this or that - could you give us the worst example of where the guy is just completely wrong. Please and thanks.

Brian? · 12-12-2016 9:38am

Let me ask a simple question. What is the "white identity" repeatedly referred to the alt right?

With a follow up, why is it worth saving?

Brian? · 12-12-2016 9:41am

Special Circumstances wrote: »

For those of that have an interest in this conversation but don't have time to critique every video thrown out here as example/proof of this or that - could you give us the worst example of where the guy is just completely wrong. Please and thanks.

He is completely wrong that "white identity" exists and that the system in the US is increasingly rigged against whites.

I'd disagree that "whites" exist as a homogenous group. It displays a distinctly narrow vision of history that judges everything through the lense of skin colour.

Special Circumstances · 12-12-2016 10:01am

Brian? wrote: »

He is completely wrong that "white identity" exists and that the system in the US is increasingly rigged against whites.

I'd disagree that "whites" exist as a homogenous group. It displays a distinctly narrow vision of history that judges everything through the lense of skin colour.

Ok I hear you there. Pretty much any label like that doesn't exist in reality outside of some hive mind feedback loop to keep everyone in the group on message.
Like many of these labels different people may have different ideas of what isn't or isn't meant by it.

How far would you have to drill down before you'd find a completely homogeneous group of people to satisfy any geographical or cultural label?

This is the guys worst logical crime? To use a vague label that people an interpret to suit themselves?

If it was somebody talking about a black identity or a Hispanic identity within the US, would you be as quick to dismiss all the points.

I'd probably have watched the video at this stage. I could be defending an utter ĺoon here who knows... but if the use of a convenient label is the "wrongest" thing people are taking from it...

Amazingfun · 12-12-2016 10:28am

Brian? wrote: »

His "points" fail any reasonable test of logic. I don't really need a reasoned argument to dismiss complete nonsense.

If you posited that the moon was made of cheese, would I have to debate you on the relative merits of your ideas? Or could I simply dismiss your idea as the pure nonsense it is.

As I am sure you recall, you posted this earlier on and it seems you are just re-hashing it yet again: (#106)

I don't believe the alt right have any legitimate grievances. The white man is not being oppressed. At worst, white culture in the US is being lost. But IMO that's a great thing.

Richard Spencer and millions more of us do not agree that losing White/Western culture is a "great thing". And just saying he doesn't have any points doesn't make it so, sorry.

Brian? · 12-12-2016 10:29am

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Ok I hear you there. Pretty much any label like that doesn't exist in reality outside of some hive mind feedback loop to keep everyone in the group on message.
Like many of these labels different people may have different ideas of what isn't or isn't meant by it.

How far would you have to drill down before you'd find a completely homogeneous group of people to satisfy any geographical or cultural label?

This is the guys worst logical crime? To use a vague label that people an interpret to suit themselves?

His "worst logical crime" is to believe in this non existent identity, yes. His 2nd worst crime is believing that this imaginary identity is under attack and needs to be saved fro multiculturalism.

If it was somebody talking about a black identity or a Hispanic identity within the US, would you be as quick to dismiss all the points.

Black identity, yes. The very real oppression suffered by African slaves through to modern Black people in America, no.

Hispanic identity doesn't exist. Much like white identity.

I'd probably have watched the video at this stage. I could be defending an utter ĺoon here who knows... but if the use of a convenient label is the "wrongest" thing people are taking from it...

It's what he does with the label. You seem to have missed that in my post earlier. He believes the system is rigged against "whites". Complete nonsense.

Brian? · 12-12-2016 10:30am

Amazingfun wrote: »

As I am sure you recall, you posted this earlier on and it seems you are just re-hashing it yet again: (#106)

Richard Spencer and millions more of us do not agree that losing White/Western culture is a "great thing". And just saying he doesn't have any points doesn't make it so, sorry.

What the point of this post? You're pointing out that I agree with myself.

Amazingfun · 12-12-2016 10:34am

The "point" is you have already stated you are exactly the kind of person Spencer is speaking about -a person who admits they consider less Whites "a good thing", so there is no mystery as to why you oppose him.

Most of your posts from the last two pages, you know, where you say stuff like "he's an idiot", and then imagine the issue is now settled, lol, is devoid of anything relevant.

Brian? · 12-12-2016 10:46am

Amazingfun wrote: »

The "point" is you have already stated you are exactly the kind of person Spencer is speaking about -a person who admits they consider less Whites "a good thing", so there is no mystery as to why you oppose him.

I don't consider less "whites" a good thing. I don't even really think the group "whites" exist. What I am happy to see less of are the cultural manifestations of what being "white" means to certain groups in the US. White nationalism is simply the new, slicker version of white supremacists from what I can see.

Most of your posts from the last two pages, you know, where you say stuff like "he's an idiot", and then imagine the issue is now settled, lol, is devoid of anything relevant.

I think it's highly relevant that he's making stupid points.

Widdershins · 12-12-2016 10:49am

My 2 cents: I watched 3/4 of that video. I hadn't time to watch the rest. I would have to hear more from Spencer to understand what he's really getting at. I think it could reasonably be interpreted as white supremacist ideology, but I feel like I don't have a grasp of what he is driving at and I could be wrong.
I felt uncomfortable for the black interviewer. If that was me I'd have been asking more direct questions to get at the heart of what Spencer believes.

Special Circumstances · 12-12-2016 11:00am

Brian? wrote: »

What the point of this post? You're pointing out that I agree with myself.

I believe you rowed back bigtime on that one under minimal pressure so it is surprising to see it raising its head against here.

Brian? · 12-12-2016 11:00am

Richard Spencer claims that "white people" built America without oppressing anyone.

Can anyone here defend that?

K-9 · 12-12-2016 11:01am

Mod:
I see 2 video dumps above. Anymore, provide at least a few lines about the video and what's in it and whether you agree with it or not.

This is a discussion site. Some people don't have the time or bandwidth to watch videos.

Brian? · 12-12-2016 11:02am

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I believe you rowed back bigtime on that one under minimal pressure so it is surprising to see it raising its head against here.

I rowed back on what? When?

Amazingfun · 12-12-2016 11:03am

Brian? wrote: »

I don't consider less "whites" a good thing. I don't even really think the group "whites" exist. What I am happy to see less of are the cultural manifestations of what being "white" means to certain groups in the US. White nationalism is simply the new, slicker version of white supremacists from what I can see.

I think it's highly relevant that he's making stupid points.

"Stupid points", here we go again. I feel the same about your "points" but I don't feel the need to let you know it every post because I understand that is my opinion.
Just because you disagree with him, doesn't make them stupid. And he has addressed the "supremacist" tag in both videos I posted as being BS.

Also, maybe you'd best unpack your "cultural manifestations" term above as I have no idea what it is.

As well as that , you stated earlier that "Hispanic Identity doesn't exist".
I suppose you'd best let LA RAZA know they are delusional?

http://www.nclr.org/about-us/

LATINOS ARE VITAL TO AMERICA’S FUTURE
Every day Latinos work to make America stronger. They energize the economy and strive to make better lives for themselves, their families, and their communities. Our mission is to improve their opportunities for success in achieving the American Dream.

Since 1968, the National Council of La Raza has remained a trusted, nonpartisan voice for Latinos. This is the community we serve through our research, policy analysis, and state and national advocacy efforts, as well as in our programs work in communities nationwide.

We partner with Affiliates across the country to serve millions of Latinos in the areas of civic engagement, civil rights and immigration, education, workforce and the economy, health, and housing. We believe in fighting for our community and for an America where economic, political, and social advancement is a reality for all Latinos.

LA RAZA:
History[edit]
The term originated in the 1925 book, La Raza Cósmica (English: The Cosmic Race) by the Mexican writer José Vasconcelos. He described la Raza Cósmica as the product of gradual racial mixing that was already underway in the Hispanic world. Vasconcelos believed that eventually all of the people within the former Spanish Empire would be completely mixed into a new race.

The term expresses ethnic or racial pride, and is used with somewhat different shades of meaning in Spain and in Hispanic America. .

The term became popular in the United States during the 1970s as part of the Mexican American Civil Rights Movement. Various Hispanic groups in the United States use the term.

Widdershins · 12-12-2016 11:05am

Brian? wrote: »

Richard Spencer claims that "white people" built America without oppressing anyone.

Can anyone here defend that?

Did he say that? He was condemning black slavery in no uncertain terms in the video I watched..I think he was saying white people could have found a way to build america without using slaves to do the work for them

Brian? · 12-12-2016 11:05am

Brian? wrote: »

Is all culture worth saving? I don't believe so.

I may have chosen my phrasing poorly. Im not cheerleading the death of a culture. I'm celebrating an increasingly tolerant and multicultural society. Happy?

This

Brian? · 12-12-2016 11:06am

Widdershins wrote: »

Did he say that? He was condemning black slavery in no uncertain terms in the video I watched..I think he was saying white people could have found a way to build america without using slaves to do the work for them

He said it in the "Hail Trump" video at the very beginning.

Brian? · 12-12-2016 11:10am

Amazingfun wrote: »

"Stupid points", here we go again. I feel the same about your "points" but I don't feel the need to let you know it every post because I understand that is my opinion.
Just because you disagree with him, doesn't make them stupid. And he has addressed the "supremacist" tag in both videos I posted as being BS.

Honestly, this is laughable. He continually swats aside accusations of being a white supremacist while preaching the supremacy of white people.

"We are the builders, we are the discoverers, we don't need them, they need us".- words that came from his mouth.

Also, maybe you'd best unpack your "cultural manifestations" term above as I have no idea what it is.

You want me to explain cultural manifestations?

As well as that , you stated earlier that "Hispanic Identity doesn't exist".
I suppose you'd best let LA RAZA know they are delusional?

http://www.nclr.org/about-us/

Grand. When a pro La Raza poster drops by I'll debate them.

Hank Scorpio · 12-12-2016 11:17am

One of the biggest problems is the race baiting by the media. The hand's up don't shoot lie created hysteria forming groups like Black Lives Matter which are one of the biggest hate groups in the America. I'd also put a lot of it down to people Hillary Clinton, it's clear from the DNC leaks how her staffers have no respect for minorities and imo use them solely for votes which creates massive tensions, along with the constant race segregation and calling Trump supporters racist, homophobic etc.

Trump himself is clearly not innocent either as he's said many stupid things about Muslims, Mexico etc, and I'm not making excuses for him here, but the way Clinton's campaign went about it in the long term is far more damaging and conniving. People forget the images posted by her Campaign of Obama in a certain garp when she was running against him which many believe created the birther movement, Trump later also foolishly became involved with accusations.

IMO the vast majority of Trump supporters aren't bigots or racists and the same for Hillary supporters. There is small groups of extreme people on each side. What's more damaging is when all supporters of a single side are labeled as such.

Amazingfun · 12-12-2016 11:28am

Brian? wrote: »

Honestly, this is laughable. He continually swats aside accusations of being a white supremacist while preaching the supremacy of white people.

"We are the builders, we are the discoverers, we don't need them, they need us".- words that came from his mouth.

You want me to explain cultural manifestations?

Grand. When a pro La Raza poster drops by I'll debate them.

1. No it isn't. What he said is true: are there millions of Europeans/Whites doing anything they can to enter Mexico/Moracco/Somalia, etc? No, it is they who are coming to White countries, in droves. He was responding to the tired old "argument" that America would collapse without illegals/immigrants there to do menial work. He is saying Whites can do this work themselves, no bother.

2. Yes, I want you to explain what you mean by the term since you used it in a sentence which was posted as follows: "What I am happy to see less of are the cultural manifestations of what being "white" means to certain groups in the US. "

3. La Raza is a massive "Hispanic identity" group in the USA and faces none of the vicious media attacks or slating as "racists" like Spencer and NPI does.

Brian? · 12-12-2016 11:40am

Amazingfun wrote: »

1. No it isn't. What he said is true: are there millions of Europeans/Whites doing anything they can to enter Mexico/Moracco/Somalia, etc? No, it is they who are coming to White countries, in droves. He was responding to the tired old "argument" that America would collapse without illegals/immigrants there to do menial work. He is saying Whites can do this work themselves, no bother.

No. he's saying that white people are inherently better than all other cultures. That's the very core of white supremacy.

2. Yes, I want you to explain what you mean by the term since you used it in a sentence which was posted as follows: "What I am happy to see less of are the cultural manifestations of what being "white" means to certain groups in the US. "

What being white means to certain groups in America, is to be superior to all other ethnicities.

[qoute]

3. La Raza is a massive "Hispanic identity" group in the USA and faces none of the vicious media attacks or slating as "racists" like Spencer and NPI does.[/quote]

Start a thread about La Raza and we may be on the same side. This thread is about the alt right. So let's leave the whatabouterry there eh?

Amazingfun · 12-12-2016 11:47am

It was you who said "Hispanic identity doesn't exist". I provided actual evidence to the contrary that not only does it exist, it does so in a free, even encouraged fashion, unencumbered by the kind of lowball attacks from media, etc, that Spencer, who is trying to do the very same thing for Whites, faces.

Tony EH · 12-12-2016 12:03pm

Inquitus wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr5BQS79H7g

I had to turn that off. Two obnoxious people talking at each other.

The black lad is almost unlistenable and that Richard Spencer guy is a real dubious fcuker. Anyone fobbing of a nazi salute in the context of a political speech as "exuberance" or "irony", while he shouts "hail victory" (Seig Heil in German) is not to be trusted. He knows EXACTLY what he's trying to rouse here an it's dangerous.

While there needs to be discussions around positive discrimination and the like and how white people feel in America at present, he is WHOLLY the wrong person to be involved.

No matter what weasel words he, or his supporters in here try to use to excuse him, his racist positions are clear.

frostyjacks · 12-12-2016 12:10pm

Inquitus wrote: »

Agreed, he gets his arse handed to him by this non sympathetic interviewer a couple of weeks ago trotting out the same veiled racist BS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr5BQS79H7g

I thought Spencer was remarkably composed in the interview. There was barely a single sentence that the interviewer didn't interrupt and start babbling over. He did well not to fall off his chair laughing when the guy claimed black people made America an economic powerhouse.

Widdershins · 12-12-2016 12:13pm

Tony EH wrote: »

I had to turn that off. Two obnoxious people talking at each other.

The black lad is almost unlistenable and that Richard Spencer guy is a real dubious fcuker. Anyone fobbing of a nazi salute in the context of a political speech as "exuberance" or "irony", while he shouts "hail victory" (Seig Heil in German) is not to be trusted. He knows EXACTLY what he's trying to rouse here an it's dangerous.

While there needs to be discussions around positive discrimination and the like and how white people feel in America at present, he is WHOLLY the wrong person to be involved.

No matter what weasel words he, or his supporters in here try to use to excuse him, his racist positions are clear.

The hail victory thing, He did at least admit that they need to knock some of that stuff on the head. He said there was about five people actually doing it and the interviewer insisted it was way more than five, and replayed the footage. I still couldn't see more than about five people doing it. So it could be that he was being too slow to condemn it, but doesn't like it himself?

Brian? · 12-12-2016 12:29pm

Widdershins wrote: »

The hail victory thing, He did at least admit that they need to knock some of that stuff on the head. He said there was about five people actually doing it and the interviewer insisted it was way more than five, and replayed the footage. I still couldn't see more than about five people doing it. So it could be that he was being too slow to condemn it, but doesn't like it himself?

You're bending over backwards to make allowances for Spencer here. He got exactly the reaction he was hoping for when he shouted "hail victory". He toasted the right armed salutes.

The alt right - Mod Warning in OP

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