Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

BoatMad · 06-03-2015 3:18pm

serfboard wrote: »

I don't accept that argument at all. Are you seriously suggesting that Athenry->Ennis would have been re-built without West-On-Track?

sorry, what I meant is that ultimately an advocacy group will make any claim they like, whether its true or not is irrelevant, Its the decision makers , that take the decisions.

SO the efficacy of what WOT claim is really the issue, that as what I meant

corktina · 06-03-2015 3:27pm

BoatMad wrote: »

This isn't the place for a long winded debate about the economic versus social aspects of nationalised rail subsidies . It a complex process involving a intersection of national policy, social services and economics.

The fact is a considerable number more then the first year are travelling, thats a good point.

In france in Alps Maritime province all bus fares irrespective of distance are 1 euro, all train fares are also fixed.

Rail economics are like road economics, somewhat subjective

as with what happens in the UK, what happens in France is irrelevant. If you don't want a long-winded debate, why bring France into ?

Lenton Lane · 06-03-2015 3:31pm

corktina wrote: »

as with what happens in the UK, what happens in France is irrelevant. If you don't want a long-winded debate, why bring France into ?

Quite relevant. The only difference is that neither the UK and France have as active an anti rail movement as Ireland has.

BoatMad · 06-03-2015 3:37pm

corktina wrote: »

as with what happens in the UK, what happens in France is irrelevant. If you don't want a long-winded debate, why bring France into ?

merely to illustrate that the economics of rail investment and return on capital deployed is a very complex argument. You cannot really ask is the 100 million worth it for the WRC ,in isolation.

corktina · 06-03-2015 3:39pm

I don't know of this movement, can you provide details? a link perhaps? It would be interesting to see what they have to say

for myself, I'm anti wasting tax payers money on pie in the sky projects. I'd support re-opening a line such as Foynes where there is a traffic flow in the offing, but to open a line in the hope that some nebulous flow of freight will suddenly emerge as a result would be folly in the extreme

Oh and by the way, if you think the UK doesn't have an anti-rail movement, have a deco at the furore about
just one link...you can google the rest yourself

http://stophs2.org/

BoatMad · 06-03-2015 3:45pm

corktina wrote: »

I don't know of this movement, can you provide details? a link perhaps? It would be interesting to see what they have to say

for myself, I'm anti wasting tax payers money on pie in the sky projects. I'd support re-opening a line such as Foynes where there is a traffic flow in the offing, but to open a line in the hope that some nebulous flow of freight will suddenly emerge as a result would be folly in the extreme

Oh and by the way, if you think the UK doesn't have an anti-rail movement, have a deco at the furore about HS2!

The public in the UK are much more in favour of rail, even if certain projects got up their nose.

I think advocacy to reopen rail lines is a " good" thing. even if some public spending goes on that , its still a " good " thing.

as for pie in the sky projects, its exactly what was said about re-opening the WRC. in fact even with that , IR itself wasn't supportive and yet it happened.

some pie in the sky seem to fall to earth, it seems

serfboard · 06-03-2015 4:00pm

Lenton Lane wrote: »

Quite relevant. The only difference is that neither the UK and France have as active an anti rail movement as Ireland has.

Oh dear. Who/where is this "anti-rail movement" that you speak of - how does a person sign up and how much is the membership? :rolleyes:

Now, there may a pro-car sentiment in Ireland, and particularly in the West of Ireland. This is becuase people lobbied for, and politicians delivered, one-off housing resulting in the population being scattered to the four corners, and insufficient growth in villages and towns. (I don't have links to hand, but I seem to remember statistics showing that the populations of Sligo City and Cork City (urban) declined - even duing overall population growth).

If you are in favour of rail (as I am) then you are presumably against one-off housing all over the country necessitating travel by car? And you would also, presumably, be in favour of industrial zonings being located near railway lines, so that we don't have a situation like we have in Galway where the major centre of employment is nowhere near a railway track?

As was said before, let rail do what it is good at - moving large numbers of people over short distances (Dublin Commuter, Dart and Luas) or long distances (intercity - particularly Belfast and Cork -> Dublin), and spending money on lines where it is justified (Dart Underground will be well worth the over one billion euro cost, and, on a cheaper scale, let's double-track some existing single-lines, for example Portarlington->Athlone), instead of wasting it on lightly-trafficed lines like Athenry->Ennis and WOTs even more bonkers idea of spending money on the corridor north of Athenry.

BoatMad · 06-03-2015 4:08pm

As was said before, let rail do what it is good at - moving large numbers of people over short distances (Dublin Commuter, Dart and Luas) or long distances (intercity - particularly Belfast and Cork -> Dublin), and spending money on lines where it is justified (Dart Underground will be well worth the over one billion euro cost, and, on a cheaper scale, let's double-track some existing single-lines, for example Portarlington->Athlone), instead of wasting it on lightly-trafficed lines like Athenry->Ennis and WOTs even more bonkers idea of spending money on the corridor north of Athenry.

i think the one thing that WOT has shown is to demonstrate to IR that if you put inn a proper service timetable and pitch the fares right m, then you can get reasonable numbers to use the system.

If IR applied this elsewhere it might generate considerable more passengers on other " lightly trafficked lines"

I note in your comments that you exclude support for rail that doesn't suit you argument.
Im a rail fan and i understand it operationally. personally for example I would spend money on airport connectors , rather then Dart underground, which in reality does little for heavy rail.

Lenton Lane · 06-03-2015 4:13pm

serfboard wrote: »

Oh dear. Who/where is this "anti-rail movement" that you speak of - how does a person sign up and how much is the membership? :rolleyes:

Now, there may a pro-car sentiment in Ireland, and particularly in the West of Ireland. This is becuase people lobbied for, and politicians delivered, one-off housing resulting in the population being scattered to the four corners, and insufficient growth in villages and towns. (I don't have links to hand, but I seem to remember statistics showing that the populations of Sligo City and Cork City (urban) declined - even duing overall population growth).

If you are in favour of rail (as I am) then you are presumably against one-off housing all over the country necessitating travel by car? And you would also, presumably, be in favour of industrial zonings being located near railway lines, so that we don't have a situation like we have in Galway where the major centre of employment is nowhere near a railway track?

As was said before, let rail do what it is good at - moving large numbers of people over short distances (Dublin Commuter, Dart and Luas) or long distances (intercity - particularly Belfast and Cork -> Dublin), and spending money on lines where it is justified (Dart Underground will be well worth the over one billion euro cost, and, on a cheaper scale, let's double-track some existing single-lines, for example Portarlington->Athlone), instead of wasting it on lightly-trafficed lines like Athenry->Ennis and WOTs even more bonkers idea of spending money on the corridor north of Athenry.

Why not pop into the bathroom and check the mirror? ;-)

You see you're trying to narrow the scope of what rail should be used for by looking at it from a purely passenger perspective. Its no accident that freight is shifting to rail and we need to have adequate infrastructure in place to ensure Ireland remains competitive.

Again you also feel the need to attack WOT as do many other greenway supporting posters on the thread. WOT are as much as a pressure group as the greenway campaigners but they appear to be significantly more successful since they don't resort to personal attacks. Remember you catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than a barrelful of vinegar...

serfboard · 06-03-2015 4:36pm

Lenton Lane wrote: »

You see you're trying to narrow the scope of what rail should be used for by looking at it from a purely passenger perspective. Its no accident that freight is shifting to rail and we need to have adequate infrastructure in place to ensure Ireland remains competitive.

I accept that rail can and should be used for freight where it is justified. When you look at our heavily densely populatedf next-door neighbour (England) and see the amount of trucks on the motorways (with typically the left lane being almost exclusively trucks), you can see that they should be doing a lot more rail freighting than they do.

In Ireland, I don't see anything near the same proportion of trucks on the road, suggesting (to me) that there is nowhere near the same demand. And I don't advocate spending government money on a study to imagine "companies not yet in existence", who might use it.

Lenton Lane wrote: »

WOT are as much as a pressure group as the greenway campaigners but they appear to be significantly more successful since they don't resort to personal attacks.

1. I don't personally attack WOT. I attack their point of view.

2. How do you measure success? Yes, they were successful in getting over €100 million spent on re-opening Athenry->Ennis at a time when Bertie Ahern was throwing our money around like snuff at a wake.

However, the ongoing subvention that the line requires has come at the detriment of other services, and they have not been successful in convincing government to allocate money to any further development north of Athenry, and they have definitively lost the argument for north of Claremorris.

You might ask the question another way - why are WOT preventing an unused piece of infrastructure from being used as a Greenway, and why are they expressing no opinion about those who are encroaching on the infrastructure that they supposedly value?

BoatMad · 06-03-2015 4:41pm

serfboard wrote: »

I accept that rail can and should be used for freight where it is justified. When you look at our heavily-densely next-door neighbour (England) and see the amount of trucks on the motorways (with typically the left lane being almost exclusively trucks), you can see that they should be doing a lot more rail freighting than they do.

massive boom in rail freight in the UK. to the point where they cant even get enough Locos.

In Ireland, I don't see anything near the same proportion of trucks on the road, suggesting (to me) that there is nowhere near the same demand. And I don't advocate spending government money on a study to imagine "companies not yet in existence", who might use it.

we are a very road dependant state

1. I don't presonally attack WOT. I attack their point of view.

yes you are, they are an advocacy grip and you attack them

2. How do you measure success? Yes, they were successful in getting over €100 million spent on re-opening Athenry->Ennis at a time when Bertie Ahern was throwing our money around like snuff at a wake.

perhaps but rail economics are funny things anyway

However, the ongoing subvention that the line requires has come at the detriment of other services, and they have not been successful in convincing government to allocate money to any further development north of Athenry, and they have definitively lost the argument for north of Claremorris

.

maybe maybe not, thats not for you to decide anyway ( nor for WOT either)

You might ask the question another way - why are WOT preventing an unused piece of infrastructure from being used as a Greenway, and why are they expressing no opinion about those who are encroaching on the infrastructure that they supposedly value?

WOTY cant prevent anything, they can merely argue. They seem to be doing better job then the likes of you

eastwest · 06-03-2015 5:13pm

Lenton Lane wrote: »

Quite relevant. The only difference is that neither the UK and France have as active an anti rail movement as Ireland has.

I didn't know there was an anti-rail movement in Ireland.
I know that the greenway groups are not anti-rail; they consistently state that their aspirations for the Western Rail Trail include the protection of the route for any possible rail use in the future.
The supposedly pro-rail group that goes under the WOT banner has perversely managed to undermine the people who want to save our existing railways, by their wild projections on Ennis-Athenry; it will now be difficult for any pro-rail argument to get past any cabinet in the future, although I accept that this was hardly their intention.

eastwest · 06-03-2015 5:32pm

BoatMad wrote: »

have you a knowledge of rail operations or pertinent facts to back up that assertion

I'm just using logic, something lacking from this debate so far in many cases.
If there are seven trains coming out of Ballina every week, would one more make any difference to the network?
What I do know a bit about is the economics of the distributive trades and the logistics of the supply chain; it's all about the type of freight, and where it's going. Apart from a few bulk operators, most of the rest in the north west can't transfer to rail, it's mostly palletised multiple drop loads that would cost too much to double and treble handle if rail was used, as well as taking too long.
Imagine if the contracts currently in place with Eddie Stobart for Tesco and with other hauliers for Supervalu were to move to rail. Instead of a truck leaving the Tesco depot in Donabate with multiple drop loads for Carrick on Shannon and Sligo, it would load all the pallets into a container and bring them to a railhead in (say) Dublin. That container would then go to Sligo, be off-loaded and brought to another distributor to be stripped and loaded into smaller trucks to be delivered to the two destinations. The cost would be about double, the delivery times would be off the wall, and flexibility would be gone from the system. Perishable goods would perish.
There is a good bit of freight moving around Connaught, but only a fraction of it is suited to bulk rail loads. Generalising about some massive uplift in freight tonnage does no service to the pro-rail lobby; it is seen for what it is, another over-exaggerated version of the truth that predicted 750,000 passengers on a rural line through small villages and towns, parallel to a motorway.
The west doesn't need a white-elephant railway, it needs the N17 to be upgraded from Tuam to Collooney, but that is no excuse for letting the rail alignment fall out of public use.
Unfortunately, because there are several points of view around this issue, politicians will do what they do best -- fence sit and do nothing while the asset rots away.

Lenton Lane · 06-03-2015 5:51pm

eastwest wrote: »

I'm just using logic, something lacking from this debate so far in many cases.
If there are seven trains coming out of Ballina every week, would one more make any difference to the network?
What I do know a bit about is the economics of the distributive trades and the logistics of the supply chain; it's all about the type of freight, and where it's going. Apart from a few bulk operators, most of the rest in the north west can't transfer to rail, it's mostly palletised multiple drop loads that would cost too much to double and treble handle if rail was used, as well as taking too long.
Imagine if the contracts currently in place with Eddie Stobart for Tesco and with other hauliers for Supervalu were to move to rail. Instead of a truck leaving the Tesco depot in Donabate with multiple drop loads for Carrick on Shannon and Sligo, it would load all the pallets into a container and bring them to a railhead in (say) Dublin. That container would then go to Sligo, be off-loaded and brought to another distributor to be stripped and loaded into smaller trucks to be delivered to the two destinations. The cost would be about double, the delivery times would be off the wall, and flexibility would be gone from the system. Perishable goods would perish.
There is a good bit of freight moving around Connaught, but only a fraction of it is suited to bulk rail loads. Generalising about some massive uplift in freight tonnage does no service to the pro-rail lobby; it is seen for what it is, another over-exaggerated version of the truth that predicted 750,000 passengers on a rural line through small villages and towns, parallel to a motorway.
The west doesn't need a white-elephant railway, it needs the N17 to be upgraded from Tuam to Collooney, but that is no excuse for letting the rail alignment fall out of public use.
Unfortunately, because there are several points of view around this issue, politicians will do what they do best -- fence sit and do nothing while the asset rots away.

You are using a straw man argument to suit your own view that the railway should be lifted, logic doesn't come into it.

The fact that Irish Rail sat down in an Oireachtas committee this week with West on Track should speak volumes as to WOT's level of influence on the ongoing debate as to what to do with the WRC. No amount of insults and name calling from the greenway campaigners is changing that.

You guys need to stop name calling and start thinking of positive options for cycling infrastructure in the west. The WRC is going to remain in railway use despite all of your campaigning. It's over. Time to move on.

end of the road · 06-03-2015 6:06pm

eastwest wrote: »

Here's a paragraph from that link that says it all.

"Frank Dawson of West on Track stated that “the true potential of rail freight in Ireland is untapped” and noted that it would cost €25-30m to reinstate the railway line from Athenry to Claremorris, allowing the decongestion of the existing Inter-City route from Claremorris to Athlone."
!!!!!!!
The 'decongestion' of the Claremorris-Athlone route????
Elsewhere in the debate, they spoke of the seven goods trains a week that come out of Ballina. How congested is that?
A huge dose of reality needs to be injected into this abject nonsense, and I'm amazed that the chair of the oireachtas committee didn't run the whole lot of them out of the place, with all the fantasy stuff that was being peddled as facts. Maybe he knows something we don't, but to describe the claremorris-athlone line as congested is just so far off the wall as to be laughable.
Irish rail could double the amount of freight on that route, and nobody would notice, but what chance is there of that happening? If they get a change to freight, the best they can hope hope for would be ten or twenty percent -- one more train in tonnage terms but in reality an extra wagon on existing trains.
The freight being hauled around the north west doesn't translate easily to rail, most of it is unsuited to rail. For instance, will the collection of milk from farms be done by railway? The delivery of concrete to building sites? The distribution of food to supermarkets? The distribution of beer to pubs, or TVs to electrical shops?
Most of our freight in rural ireland is part of the supply chain or lies in the distributive sector, and can't be measured in the context of planning for rail freight infrastructure. A look at the kinds of trucks on the road says a lot -- mostly curtainsiders or tail lift rigids. Not a lot of containers.
The chair of the committee bent over backwards to pander to this nonsense this week; he shouldn't encourage them, even if they're neighbours. This committee is supposed to be part of our legislative process, not a get-together of a little gang of pub pals talking sh* te in Claremorris.

it done its job. west on track are entitled to put over their point of view and be heard. you don't agree with them, fine, but they have a right to be heard and have their point of view considered fairly

end of the road · 06-03-2015 6:17pm

westtip wrote: »

well your complaints shouldn't be directed at Greenway campaigners, it should be fired at the likes of Sligo and Mayo County councils who have done little to protect the route based on housing and commercial premises built on or near the line, or private driveways and roads tarmacced over the line

And please spare me what people must accept. Its a closed railway line that no longer has any reasonable expectation of ever re-opening due to economics and likely demand. The section north of Claremorris closed in the 1960s and that south of Claremorris in the 1970s. It's description as a "railway line" is somewhat imaginative. As it happens with regard to your comments That really is the whole point because on an evidence based criteria there is absolutely no chance of this happening which is why people want to see it put to good use as a greenway. This happens to be a view shared by the Minister of Transport and Irish Rail.

To paraphrase your tone of writing, this is the situation which the railway campaigners must accept. Hey ho on we go

irish rail are paying lip service to keep the greenway lot off their back. if its decided to return it to railway use irish rail will get on with it as they are told. its no skin off their nose what it is used for

end of the road · 06-03-2015 6:29pm

corktina wrote: »

I don't know of this movement, can you provide details? a link perhaps? It would be interesting to see what they have to say

for myself, I'm anti wasting tax payers money on pie in the sky projects. I'd support re-opening a line such as Foynes where there is a traffic flow in the offing, but to open a line in the hope that some nebulous flow of freight will suddenly emerge as a result would be folly in the extreme

Oh and by the way, if you think the UK doesn't have an anti-rail movement, have a deco at the furore about
just one link...you can google the rest yourself

http://stophs2.org/

nobody takes the stop hs2 lot seriously. everyone knows hs2 is necessary for the future and for future growth of the railway. hence it must be built

end of the road · 06-03-2015 6:37pm

eastwest wrote: »

I'm just using logic, something lacking from this debate so far in many cases.
If there are seven trains coming out of Ballina every week, would one more make any difference to the network?
What I do know a bit about is the economics of the distributive trades and the logistics of the supply chain; it's all about the type of freight, and where it's going. Apart from a few bulk operators, most of the rest in the north west can't transfer to rail, it's mostly palletised multiple drop loads that would cost too much to double and treble handle if rail was used, as well as taking too long.
Imagine if the contracts currently in place with Eddie Stobart for Tesco and with other hauliers for Supervalu were to move to rail. Instead of a truck leaving the Tesco depot in Donabate with multiple drop loads for Carrick on Shannon and Sligo, it would load all the pallets into a container and bring them to a railhead in (say) Dublin. That container would then go to Sligo, be off-loaded and brought to another distributor to be stripped and loaded into smaller trucks to be delivered to the two destinations. The cost would be about double, the delivery times would be off the wall, and flexibility would be gone from the system. Perishable goods would perish.
There is a good bit of freight moving around Connaught, but only a fraction of it is suited to bulk rail loads. Generalising about some massive uplift in freight tonnage does no service to the pro-rail lobby; it is seen for what it is, another over-exaggerated version of the truth that predicted 750,000 passengers on a rural line through small villages and towns, parallel to a motorway.
The west doesn't need a white-elephant railway, it needs the N17 to be upgraded from Tuam to Collooney, but that is no excuse for letting the rail alignment fall out of public use.
Unfortunately, because there are several points of view around this issue, politicians will do what they do best -- fence sit and do nothing while the asset rots away.

whats wrong with the n17 as it is . resurface it and remove bends where possible, that should be enough

Hungerford · 06-03-2015 7:20pm

WOT's recent statements smack of a level of desperation and self-delusion last seen within the Fuhrerbunker in 1945.

From all metrics, the Ennis-Athenry stretch has been an epic disaster, failing to generate the passenger numbers or economic development promised by WOT. Not only is it a €106 million white elephant but WOT's victory was achieved at the expense of the Waterford-Rosslare line, which enjoyed a significant speed advantage over the local road system and could have been developed into something useful by a more proactive IE management.

The fact is that freight trains from Ballina have not produced any serious congestion of the Athlone-Claremorris section. Firstly, the maximum speed deferential between passenger and freight on that section is just 20 mph, meaning that any delays should be down to ham-fisted pathing.

Even if we were to assume that there was an incredible boom in freight from Mayo, Claremorris-Athenry would be far from the most effective answer to any congestion problems. The issue could be addressed through additional double-tracking of the current single line section.

In terms of the operational flexibility argument, it would seem that the one line begging for reinstatement is Athlone to Mullingar, which would provide an alternative means for Galway, Mayo and Sligo trains to access Dublin.

eastwest · 06-03-2015 7:24pm

Lenton Lane wrote: »

You are using a straw man argument to suit your own view that the railway should be lifted, logic doesn't come into it.

The fact that Irish Rail sat down in an Oireachtas committee this week with West on Track should speak volumes as to WOT's level of influence on the ongoing debate as to what to do with the WRC. No amount of insults and name calling from the greenway campaigners is changing that.

You guys need to stop name calling and start thinking of positive options for cycling infrastructure in the west. The WRC is going to remain in railway use despite all of your campaigning. It's over. Time to move on.

Anyone who knows the situation on the ground will be aware that that little exercise at the Oireachtas committee on transport and communications had more to do with personal associations than with policy making. I watched most of it, and there was only one statement that came out of it that was relevant. The IR representative repeated almost verbatim the comments of the minister in December, i.e.. that they favoured alternative uses for all unused lines as long as they were always available for future rail use.
That comment is pretty much exactly what the pro-tourism people have always said, and it is definitely a lot closer to their viewpoint than it is to what the pro-rail people espouse. It is also pretty clear to most observers that the minister favours the greenway solution; there is no way that the IR rep was speaking outside of government policy constraints.

end of the road · 06-03-2015 7:44pm

Hungerford wrote: »

WOT's victory was achieved at the expense of the Waterford-Rosslare line, which enjoyed a significant speed advantage over the local road system and could have been developed into something useful by a more proactive IE management.

exactly. however ultimately it was the national transport authority who stole this line from the people of south wexford, siding with irish rail over the people in the area, even though they admitted keeping the line open would be beneficial and that closing it would be bad for transport both in the area and for connectivity in the southeast, and would achieve nothing. (i've read much of the documents its in there) . well at least we have the car ferry i suppose which provides a service unlike the pointless waste of space bus replacement that replaced the more direct, way more beneficial railway.

eastwest · 06-03-2015 7:59pm

end of the road wrote: »

whats wrong with the n17 as it is . resurface it and remove bends where possible, that should be enough

It needs upgrading to dual carriageway or at least two plus one; there's little point in having a motorway all the way to Tuam unless they join the dots all the way to Sligo. They also need to plug Castlebar into the motorway at some point.

Grandeeod · 07-03-2015 2:11am

What a coincidence that this thread got a burst of life! I drove from Claremorris to Galway City today. There is no inspection car going from Athenry to Claremorris.

1. The route is severed at Athenry.

2. There are trees growing 20 feet high between the sleepers at some points.

3. At one level crossing, the track is gone and its just tarmaced over.

Lies.

Grandeeod · 07-03-2015 2:17am

Lenton Lane wrote: »

Why not pop into the bathroom and check the mirror? ;-)

You see you're trying to narrow the scope of what rail should be used for by looking at it from a purely passenger perspective. Its no accident that freight is shifting to rail and we need to have adequate infrastructure in place to ensure Ireland remains competitive.

Again you also feel the need to attack WOT as do many other greenway supporting posters on the thread. WOT are as much as a pressure group as the greenway campaigners but they appear to be significantly more successful since they don't resort to personal attacks. Remember you catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than a barrelful of vinegar...

I heard the same BS over 10 years ago. WOT are successful due to the begging bowl, poor whest of Ireland mentality that has been a feature of Irish politics since independence. Its an easy ride. WOT don't deal in reality of any kind. They deal in spin. Follow a one trick pony approach and avoid real debate by accusing any detractors of being overly abusive.

Grandeeod · 07-03-2015 2:21am

end of the road wrote: »

it done its job. west on track are entitled to put over their point of view and be heard. you don't agree with them, fine, but they have a right to be heard and have their point of view considered fairly

So do those of us who think they are bonkers!

Grandeeod · 07-03-2015 2:26am

end of the road wrote: »

if its decided to return it to railway use irish rail will get on with it as they are told. its no skin off their nose what it is used for

Eh.....do you understand basic economics? It may not be skin off their noses, but it will be more cuts elsewhere to subvent it.

Grandeeod · 07-03-2015 2:46am

Lenton Lane wrote: »

You are using a straw man argument to suit your own view that the railway should be lifted, logic doesn't come into it.

The fact that Irish Rail sat down in an Oireachtas committee this week with West on Track should speak volumes as to WOT's level of influence on the ongoing debate as to what to do with the WRC. No amount of insults and name calling from the greenway campaigners is changing that.

You guys need to stop name calling and start thinking of positive options for cycling infrastructure in the west. The WRC is going to remain in railway use despite all of your campaigning. It's over. Time to move on.

That sounds like something from Irish railway news circa 2004.:rolleyes:

The WRC may well remain in railway use or rather "planned" railway use, but when will WOT comment on the land grab? When will the associated CCs comment on the land grab? When will the local TDs comment on the land grab? Who in whatever CC will comment on a level crossing between Claremorris and Tuam being buried under tarmac? All this talk of WOTs level of influence, when the line is slowly being reclaimed by nature, tar, farmers and any home owner who fancies a new lawn. Whatever about the so called "Burma Road", that closed donkeys years ago, the line from Claremorris to Athenry was used quite recently in real terms. But now, it to is turning into a free for all.

Once again I remind you that WOT are mere pawns that slurp up the "poor whest of Ireland" mentality. I did say "easy ride", didn't I?

Its a bit like Mayo thinking they "deserve an All Ireland Football Title."

eastwest · 07-03-2015 9:26am

Grandeeod wrote: »

Its a bit like Mayo thinking they "deserve an All Ireland Football Title."

That's the best summary of the rail argument that I've seen here.

Lenton Lane · 07-03-2015 9:57am

Grandeeod wrote: »

That sounds like something from Irish railway news circa 2004.:rolleyes:

The WRC may well remain in railway use or rather "planned" railway use, but when will WOT comment on the land grab? When will the associated CCs comment on the land grab? When will the local TDs comment on the land grab? Who in whatever CC will comment on a level crossing between Claremorris and Tuam being buried under tarmac? All this talk of WOTs level of influence, when the line is slowly being reclaimed by nature, tar, farmers and any home owner who fancies a new lawn. Whatever about the so called "Burma Road", that closed donkeys years ago, the line from Claremorris to Athenry was used quite recently in real terms. But now, it to is turning into a free for all.

Once again I remind you that WOT are mere pawns that slurp up the "poor whest of Ireland" mentality. I did say "easy ride", didn't I?

Its a bit like Mayo thinking they "deserve an All Ireland Football Title."

eastwest wrote: »

That's the best summary of the rail argument that I've seen here.

To use Grandeeod's analogy, Grandeeod's rant was pure Derek Wheeler from Platform 11 circa 2009. Nothing that hasn't been said before by the Greenway supporters so I wouldn't exactly treat it like Moses coming down from the mountain to smote the Greenway unbelievers like eastwest thinks. :rolleyes

westtip · 07-03-2015 1:23pm

BoatMad wrote: »

i think the one thing that WOT has shown is to demonstrate to IR that if you put inn a proper service timetable and pitch the fares right m, then you can get reasonable numbers to use the system.

Reasonable numbers!, so achieving 50% of the year one forecast passenger numbers on Ennis/Athenry by slashing fares is the way forward? I predict that the jump of 70% in numbers last year will tail off this year and numbers will flatline at between 45/50k. In any event consider this, 50,000 in year 4! 100,000 in year one I seem to remember was the business case, rising to 250,000 by year 3 and then the ultimate optimism of West on Track actually forecasting a demand of 750,000 passenger journey numbers back in 2006. You don't spend money on state transport infrastructure because you think you might achieve reasonable numbers, and its best not to listen to people who make forecasts whose record is so woefully embarrassing.

Numbers. Do you quite understand them BoatMad?

Banjoxed · 07-03-2015 5:57pm

westtip wrote: »

Reasonable numbers!, so achieving 50% of the year one forecast passenger numbers on Ennis/Athenry by slashing fares is the way forward? I predict that the jump of 70% in numbers last year will tail off this year and numbers will flatline at between 45/50k. In any event consider this, 50,000 in year 4! 100,000 in year one I seem to remember was the business case, rising to 250,000 by year 3 and then the ultimate optimism of West on Track actually forecasting a demand of 750,000 passenger journey numbers back in 2006. You don't spend money on state transport infrastructure because you think you might achieve reasonable numbers, and its best not to listen to people who make forecasts whose record is so woefully embarrassing.

Numbers. Do you quite understand them BoatMad?

Looks like there was coffee made this week at the Oireachtas with the committee but the smell didn't appeal to some..

eastwest · 07-03-2015 6:10pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Looks like there was coffee made this week at the Oireachtas with the committee but the smell didn't appeal to some..

That committee meeting last week was a fairly typical piece of political game-playing, arranged by a local TD for a few local lobbyists but achieving nothing at the end of the day except making the TD look like he gives a damn, or that he's staying around for the next election.
There was only one clear statement that came out of the department as a result of that meeting, and it came via the Irish Rail rep, Don Cunningham. He repeated almost verbatim the statements from pascal Donohoe, Leo Varadkar and Alan Kelly in recent times -- that the Department's preferred use for unused lines is to protect them with cycling and walking trails.
Note that he didn't say 'closed' lines, he said 'unused' lines. If the rail lobbyists can't read the language coming out of the Dept of Transport, they're even more deluded than many commentators on here are suggesting.

westtip · 07-03-2015 7:23pm

Hungerford wrote: »

In terms of the operational flexibility argument, it would seem that the one line begging for reinstatement is Athlone to Mullingar, which would provide an alternative means for Galway, Mayo and Sligo trains to access Dublin.

Funny you should say that Hungerford, as the WOT people have always labelled me (and my identity is well known) as anti rail, I suggest they do some trawling of the press and find an article I wrote and submitted and got published in the Athlone Observer sometime in the early 2000.s - in truth I can't actually remember the year. This article advocated re-opening Athlone Mullingar route, both as a commuter route for Athlone to get commuters into Connolly and as a much shorter route to Dublin from Galway. Re-opening this line would have been much more beneficial to the west. Strange thing is this route is now a greenway!

westtip · 07-03-2015 7:29pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Looks like there was coffee made this week at the Oireachtas with the committee but the smell didn't appeal to some..

I can assure you my dear boy, there is no concern about that little flag waving exercise by West on Track. I am surprised the former civil servant still campaigning for West on Track but now retired with little to no influence on this matter anymore didn't bring along his toy train set to give a physical display of what he was going on about.

eastwest · 07-03-2015 7:33pm

westtip wrote: »

Funny you should say that Hungerford, as the WOT people have always labelled me (and my identity is well known) as anti rail, I suggest they do some trawling of the press and find an article I wrote and submitted and got published in the Athlone Observer sometime in the early 2000.s - in truth I can't actually remember the year. This article advocated re-opening Athlone Mullingar route, both as a commuter route for Athlone to get commuters into Connolly and as a much shorter route to Dublin from Galway. Re-opening this line would have been much more beneficial to the west. Strange thing is this route is now a greenway!

This is the point that many people have been making for ages on boards; the DOT has no intention of reopening closed lines in rural areas in the foreseeable future. If they had, Athlone Mullingar would be an obvious 'top of the list' project, when you look at it in the context of population spread and the rail map of Ireland.
Apart from metro north, there is almost no possibility of new rail bring laid in ireland for decades. If it ever happens though, Athlone-Mullingar will at least have it's route secured, which us more than can be said for unused lines in the west.

Grandeeod · 07-03-2015 7:57pm

Lenton Lane wrote: »

To use Grandeeod's analogy, Grandeeod's rant was pure Derek Wheeler from Platform 11 circa 2009. Nothing that hasn't been said before by the Greenway supporters so I wouldn't exactly treat it like Moses coming down from the mountain to smote the Greenway unbelievers like eastwest thinks. :rolleyes

What are you on about? Why not discuss the issue of land grabbing?

end of the road · 07-03-2015 8:31pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

What are you on about? Why not discuss the issue of land grabbing?

well, what can be said about it apart from, get a few diggers down and forcibly remove any obstructions whether the line is used for rail or greenway

Grandeeod · 07-03-2015 9:46pm

end of the road wrote: »

well, what can be said about it apart from, get a few diggers down and forcibly remove any obstructions whether the line is used for rail or greenway

You're missing the entire point. WRC supporters, CCs and WOT have not commented on it. Surely a lobby like WOT should voice concerns about it? But they don't. Surely CCs, who claim to support reopening it should at the very least fess up to the poor PP that has gone on? They don't. It's bonkers to see how they show so much distain for a Greenway, yet lay tarmac across the line and make no noise about the level of theft that has been done to the line over the years. It's a cosy cartel that has nothing to do with promoting rail travel in general. All that, despite the economic case being crap.

They have punched the head off a dead body and now expect the doctor to heal the wounds, bring it back to life and then make it function successfully.

Banjoxed · 07-03-2015 11:16pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

You're missing the entire point. WRC supporters, CCs and WOT have not commented on it. Surely a lobby like WOT should voice concerns about it? But they don't. Surely CCs, who claim to support reopening it should at the very least fess up to the poor PP that has gone on? They don't. It's bonkers to see how they show so much distain for a Greenway, yet lay tarmac across the line and make no noise about the level of theft that has been done to the line over the years. It's a cosy cartel that has nothing to do with promoting rail travel in general. All that, despite the economic case being crap.

They have punched the head off a dead body and now expect the doctor to heal the wounds, bring it back to life and then make it function successfully.

Given that one of the regulars thinks a model train somewhere is damning evidence of something, I think you are fortunate to have any contrary opinions to the regulars voiced here at all.

Grandeeod · 07-03-2015 11:40pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Given that one of the regulars thinks a model train somewhere is damning evidence of something, I think you are fortunate to have any contrary opinions to the regulars voiced here at all.

You'll have to explain that one to me.:D

Lenton Lane · 08-03-2015 3:58am

Grandeeod wrote: »

What a coincidence that this thread got a burst of life! I drove from Claremorris to Galway City today. There is no inspection car going from Athenry to Claremorris.

1. The route is severed at Athenry.

2. There are trees growing 20 feet high between the sleepers at some points.

3. At one level crossing, the track is gone and its just tarmaced over.

Lies.

And boom...there goes your credibility as a commentator on matters rail.

Anyone who knows anything about rail lines can tell you that the first thing to be done will be vegetation clearance, and a check of obstructions. The line is connected at Claremorris and if the council has tarmacced over the line at Tuam the line can be untarmacced over. Also there are RRVs that can drive over Tarmac etc. in any case. Lies indeed. Try and understand how rail engineering works before you accuse people of lying.

MayoForSam · 08-03-2015 1:08pm

Lenton Lane wrote: »

And boom...there goes your credibility as a commentator on matters rail.

Anyone who knows anything about rail lines can tell you that the first thing to be done will be vegetation clearance, and a check of obstructions. The line is connected at Claremorris and if the council has tarmacced over the line at Tuam the line can be untarmacced over. Also there are RRVs that can drive over Tarmac etc. in any case. Lies indeed. Try and understand how rail engineering works before you accuse people of lying.

The line is also tarmacced over between Milltown and Ballindine (that was done about a year ago to alleviate a serious dip in the road that was a hazard).

But surely the state of the line between Tuam and Claremorris and the even worse situation further north would mean that it is not currently usable for any form of rail transport without major investment, including replacing all of the sleepers and laying new track? Clearing a few trees and briars to further WOT's ambitions would be completely pointless. Re-asserting public ownership of the line should be done in any case however.

TINA1984 · 08-03-2015 2:50pm

Lenton Lane wrote: »

....Try and understand how rail engineering works before you accuse people of lying.

What's your rail engineering experience then?

westtip · 08-03-2015 3:05pm

MayoForSam wrote: »

The line is also tarmacced over between Milltown and Ballindine (that was done about a year ago to alleviate a serious dip in the road that was a hazard).

But surely the state of the line between Tuam and Claremorris and the even worse situation further north would mean that it is not currently usable for any form of rail transport without major investment, including replacing all of the sleepers and laying new track? Clearing a few trees and briars to further WOT's ambitions would be completely pointless. Re-asserting public ownership of the line should be done in any case however.

MFS and what West on Track hardly ever refer to is the blueprint for the original Western Rail Corridor, the McCann Report of 2005, which pointed out that the section from Claremorris to Collooney it wasn't just a matter of laying a new track it was a matter of digging up the entire foundations and laying a completely new foundation for a track. Why? Well lest not lose sight of the McCann report which was still being quote in last weeks love in at the Oireachtas:
Mccann report 2005

I understand that there are two main reasons why the cost of the Claremorris-Collooney section is very high. Firstly, when it was built in 1891-1892 the section was constructed as a light railway. If it were to be brought into the IE network the formation would have to be rebuilt to the national heavy rail standard. The second relates to the cost of necessary alterations to level crossings, of which there are a total of 290 along the section, two of which alone would cost €24m to create grade separations.

In following through on my general recommendation, I am suggesting that the restoration of the WRC should take account of these relative costings.

Just before this passage - and let's not lose sight of what Frank "train set" Dawson said at last weeks meeting that it would only cost €25 million to re-open Athenry to Tuam

When this is what the McCann report said in 2005 about pricing for each section of the WRC

Table 1
Section Distance Capital Cost Average Cost
Per Mile
Ennis to Athenry 36 miles €74.7m €2.1m
Athenry to Tuam 15.5 miles €34.7m €2.2m
Tuam to Claremorris 17 miles €58.9m €3.5m
C/morris to Collooney 46.25 miles €197.4m €4.3m

Maybe Frank "train set" Dawson was talking about one of his model trains.

eastwest · 08-03-2015 5:47pm

MayoForSam wrote: »

The line is also tarmacced over between Milltown and Ballindine (that was done about a year ago to alleviate a serious dip in the road that was a hazard).

But surely the state of the line between Tuam and Claremorris and the even worse situation further north would mean that it is not currently usable for any form of rail transport without major investment, including replacing all of the sleepers and laying new track? Clearing a few trees and briars to further WOT's ambitions would be completely pointless. Re-asserting public ownership of the line should be done in any case however.

I puzzled over this issue for a long time when I first took an interest in this topic; I found it hard to understand why WOT and its political arm the Inter-county railway committee never condemned incursions and never proposed any kind of initiative to assert rights on the line.
The more you look at the dynamics though, the more it all makes some kind of perverse sense. Politicians, especially councillors, need to keep all sides happy and not alienate any section of the electorate, so they won't want to upset the squatters. They know well that the railway is a dead duck, but they find it profitable to pander to all sides. In Kerry, a FG councillor was one of the cheerleaders of the gang of farmers that blocked the extension of the GS Trail, in a cynical exercise that was all about extorting compensation for people whose land adjoined the facility.
Whenever the Western rail Trail project commences, expect to see some of the 'pro-rail' councillors finding themselves on the side of the squatters in a compensation grab; it's as predictable as the coming of Spring.
If anyone thinks I'm being overly cynical, have a look at the circus that was the Oireachtas committee on transport and communications last week, and watch a few perfect examples of this 'cute hoor' syndrome.

Grandeeod · 08-03-2015 7:09pm

Lenton Lane wrote: »

And boom...there goes your credibility as a commentator on matters rail.

Anyone who knows anything about rail lines can tell you that the first thing to be done will be vegetation clearance, and a check of obstructions. The line is connected at Claremorris and if the council has tarmacced over the line at Tuam the line can be untarmacced over. Also there are RRVs that can drive over Tarmac etc. in any case. Lies indeed. Try and understand how rail engineering works before you accuse people of lying.

Boom what? I merely replied to what the IE person was quoted as saying. They intend running a "train" over the line to assert ownership. They can't run a "train" over the line. There was nothing said about vegetation clearance etc.

Now as for my credibility? I don't claim to have any. Nor do I claim to be a commentator on rail matters. I'm simply discussing an issue on a discussion forum. However after a quick look back over the last few pages, I'm guessing my mentioning of platform 11 has lead you to make some incorrect assumptions about who I am. I suggest you take your obvious disdain for the person you named directly to him as I know for a fact that he does not have the right of reply here.

Grandeeod · 08-03-2015 7:11pm

TINA1984 wrote: »

What's your rail engineering experience then?

Probably a Hornby.

Grandeeod · 08-03-2015 7:17pm

Lenton Lane wrote: »

And boom...there goes your credibility as a commentator on matters rail.

Anyone who knows anything about rail lines can tell you that the first thing to be done will be vegetation clearance, and a check of obstructions. The line is connected at Claremorris and if the council has tarmacced over the line at Tuam the line can be untarmacced over. Also there are RRVs that can drive over Tarmac etc. in any case. Lies indeed. Try and understand how rail engineering works before you accuse people of lying.

Any chance you could comment on the WRC lobby's complete failure to make any kind of statement on the land grabbing issues, that were pointed out to them nearly 11 years ago?

end of the road · 08-03-2015 8:49pm

TINA1984 wrote: »

What's your rail engineering experience then?

and whats yours. infact why don't you enlighten us all what your rail experience is . because your happy to ask everyone else but never willing to answer. so, come on. tell us. were all waiting

TINA1984 · 09-03-2015 12:55am

end of the road wrote: »

and whats yours. infact why don't you enlighten us all what your rail experience is . because your happy to ask everyone else but never willing to answer. so, come on. tell us. were all waiting

What exactly has this got to do with me? If you're going to pull rank on a poster by claiming knowledge of 'railway engineering' then its reasonable to ask what exactly their own knowledge or background is in railway engineering if they're chiding someone else for lack of same.

In my experience on this forum, there's a lot of Walter Mitty types who have, shall we say, delusions of grandeur, a puffed up sense of self importance on all matters rail If you will. Ain't that right end of the road ; )

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Comments