Charlie (RTE1 Charlie Haughey Drama)

D'Agger · 13-01-2015 10:14am

Sheep Lover wrote: »

Who was the fella hiding in the jacks earwigging?

Interested to hear the answer to this myself....Captain Culchie is his current alias so far as I'm concerned

jezzer · 13-01-2015 10:21am

amovingstatue wrote: »

From The Boss by Joyce/Murtagh p138

Doherty -- known to his friends as "the Doc" -- was extremely conscious of his public image and on occasions, his need to appear important affected his colleagues in government. To be assured of re-election in Roscommon, Doherty believed he had to maintain a high profile locally. His status as a minister ensured he got more coverage in the local newspaper than an ordinary TD and he was also in great demand to attend local party functions. But his running mate in the constituency, Terry Leyden, was a junior minister - a lower status but one which ensured that he too got better than average publicity and was also in demand. Both were entitled to state cars but Doherty was able to exercise a degree of control over the cars because they were operated from garda headquarters and he was justice minister. Doherty had the usual black Mercedes but he issued a directive that Leyden was never to be given a Mercedes. When Doherty drove through the constituency, he wanted everyone to be in no doubt about who was in town.
Leyden was allowed to have a Peugeot 604.

c*nt

Riskymove · 13-01-2015 10:24am

D'Agger wrote: »

Interested to hear the answer to this myself....Captain Culchie is his current alias so far as I'm concerned

It's already been covered here. He is a fictional character

probably just to be seen as a generic FF Backbencher

The_Captain · 13-01-2015 10:45am

I'm really enjoying the show, Charlie firing out one-liners and being a díck.

Then I remember that that man actually led our country

Deise Vu · 13-01-2015 11:54am

One interesting historical divergence was that Charlie was shown in the drama asking the Doc to fix the problem with Charlie's election agent apparently voting twice (the Solicitor Pat O'Connor Pat O'Connor). In the drama Doc says he got a Superintendant to get a second account from witnesses and they mysteriously had changed their minds.

What actually happened was even more bizarre than the the fiction. The presiding Judge found that, as a ballot is secret by it's very nature, there was no proof that Pat O'Connor Pat O'Connor actually voted twice so the case was thrown out. Needless to say there was an outcry and the law was changed to it being an offence to just apply for a second ballot paper but Pat O'Connor Pat O'Connor was adjudged an innocent man.

Just another week in the lunatic asylum that was Ireland in the 80's.

K-9 · 13-01-2015 12:02pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

I agree. But in the early and mid 80s the Irish public were still firmly under the thumb of the Catholic church. Going against them was political suicide.
Divorce won't come in until 1996. And Haughey only ever fought battles that a)he could win and b) had a financial incentive for him or his masters / cronies.
Hypocrisy was almost 100% universal in the Irish political classes of the 1980s.

Politics it was but it's hypocrisy. Garret personally didn't agree with divorce, he just backed it because it was the right thing to do. Haughey gave a famous interview with HotPress about the permissive society, shame he didn't use his leadership to modernise Ireland earlier.

He'll be remembered for his double standards on so many levels plus huge on big ideas, poor on implementation and the will to see them through. Even the turnaround in the economy in the late 80's was more down to McSharry than Haughey.

K-9 · 13-01-2015 12:10pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

I clearly remember Mary Harney being asked on local radio why the PD's weren't canvassing in Moyross and she said 'it would not be an area where we are targeting our manifesto'. Also have you ever looked at the profile of the PD top dogs? You won't find too many man in the street types there apart from a few councillors and TD's that were poached off other parties.

That's completely different to your first blanket statement though. The PD's tax policy was very much aimed at the middle class vote in the 80's and early 90's, it was why they were successful initially, until everybody else stole their clothes.

jezzer · 13-01-2015 12:26pm

K-9 wrote: »

Politics it was but it's hypocrisy. Garret personally didn't agree with divorce, he just backed it because it was the right thing to do. Haughey gave a famous interview with HotPress about the permissive society, shame he didn't use his leadership to modernise Ireland earlier.

He'll be remembered for his double standards on so many levels plus huge on big ideas, poor on implementation and the will to see them through. Even the turnaround in the economy in the late 80's was more down to McSharry than Haughey.

McSharry??? one could argue the complete opposite given his history....

who the fug · 13-01-2015 12:32pm

jezzer wrote: »

McSharry??? one could argue the complete opposite given his history....

Yes but Dukes was keeping him on the straight and narrow at the time, also there was only one course of action to solve the problem

Falcon L · 13-01-2015 12:51pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

One interesting historical divergence was that Charlie was shown in the drama asking the Doc to fix the problem with Charlie's election agent apparently voting twice (the Solicitor Pat O'Connor Pat O'Connor). In the drama Doc says he got a Superintendant to get a second account from witnesses and they mysteriously had changed their minds.

What actually happened was even more bizarre than the the fiction. The presiding Judge found that, as a ballot is secret by it's very nature, there was no proof that Pat O'Connor Pat O'Connor actually voted twice so the case was thrown out. Needless to say there was an outcry and the law was changed to it being an offence to just apply for a second ballot paper but Pat O'Connor Pat O'Connor was adjudged an innocent man.

Just another week in the lunatic asylum that was Ireland in the 80's.

Wasn't Pat O'Connor (x2) Charlie's solicitor for the arms trial?

Hitchens · 13-01-2015 1:23pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Ah Shucks,thats so sweet!,if only it were true.

........as the Tipp fan said when he awoke after dreaming that Tipp had beaten KK

Meathlass · 13-01-2015 1:24pm

D'Agger wrote: »

Interested to hear the answer to this myself....Captain Culchie is his current alias so far as I'm concerned

On the RTE website the cast list has him as 'TD #7 - Fictional'. Details below of cast and photos - very useful while watching it!!

http://www.rte.ie/drama/tv/featured/charlie/abouttheshow.html

jezzer · 13-01-2015 1:39pm

is the show deliberately leaving out maureen haughey and family? possibly because they are still alive? or was it a case that he actually had nothing to do with them? perhaps they lived separate lives, although as far as i was aware they lived together as normal, perhaps mrs haughey turned a blind eye to the terry keane thing, anyone know when the affair ended?

i remember dermot morgan was on his case with the whole "sweetie" thing and essentially haughey had scrap saturday ended, morgan knew what they were up to.....

the 80's in ireland really was the dark ages

Power Gear · 13-01-2015 1:44pm

Sean Doherty in Kerry.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/crashes-and-controversy-in-haugheys-government-28840881.html

Love the photo :pac:

FloatingVoter · 13-01-2015 1:47pm

Charlie lived in Abbeville with Maureen. In contrast Bertie Ahern was openly separated from his wife and never denied it. Possibly the only thing he ever did that wasn't dishonest.
Charlie was notorious for playing away even before Terry Keane. It's a wonder Sean Lemass didn't arrange an accident for him. Might have saved us all a lot of bother.

Meathlass · 13-01-2015 1:54pm

jezzer wrote: »

is the show deliberately leaving out maureen haughey and family? possibly because they are still alive? or was it a case that he actually had nothing to do with them? perhaps they lived separate lives, although as far as i was aware they lived together as normal, perhaps mrs haughey turned a blind eye to the terry keane thing, anyone know when the affair ended?

It was an open secret; I don't think the affair ended until the 90s.

He lived with Maureen and the children - I suppose they're not in the show as they wouldn't add anything to the drama though presumably she accompanied him to state functions etc.

Obviously Mrs Haughey knew about the affair, as did Justice Ronan Keane. Why they didn't leave their respective spouses is an eternal question. Lots of people, even today, stay in cheating relationships. Plus Haughey was providing his wife and family with a certain standard of living that perhaps she didn't want to give up.

jezzer · 13-01-2015 1:59pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Charlie lived in Abbeville with Maureen. In contrast Bertie Ahern was openly separated from his wife and never denied it. Possibly the only thing he ever did that wasn't dishonest.
Charlie was notorious for playing away even before Terry Keane. It's a wonder Sean Lemass didn't arrange an accident for him. Might have saved us all a lot of bother.

really? i assumed it was just with keane because it was a power thing....he obviously only married maureen lemass as a political maneuver and to gain him some standing....presumably they led separate lives....

Its a wonder Sean Lemass didnt destroy him???

Snickers Man · 13-01-2015 2:19pm

Hitchens wrote: »

Charlie came to our town when he was Taoiseach to open something or other.

I had our first child with me, about 2 years of age.

...

But lo and behold, just as they are about level with us, Charlie looks across and gives us a nod, a smile and a friendly little regal wave, to which I respond in kind.

Well, it was as if someone had waved a magic wand because the mob with him immediately began waving and nodding and smiling at us as well.

They must have been thinking, "Geez, the Boss must know this fella, better stay onside here".

He really had them boys in the palm of his hand.........and me as well.

There's a difference between character and charisma.

Most successful politicians have charisma. Enoch Powell had it; Paisley had it; Clinton had it. They could impress people, dazzle them, seduce them even.

It doesn't necessarily mean they were good guys. Rolf Harris and Jimmy Saville had a certain charisma too.

Would you have voted for one of them in the early 1980s?

Would you vote for one of them now?

leck · 13-01-2015 2:29pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Charlie lived in Abbeville with Maureen. In contrast Bertie Ahern was openly separated from his wife and never denied it. Possibly the only thing he ever did that wasn't dishonest.
Charlie was notorious for playing away even before Terry Keane. It's a wonder Sean Lemass didn't arrange an accident for him. Might have saved us all a lot of bother.

In this week's episode, there's the scene where Jacinta comes to his home looking for money to go to England [starts at about 1:04 on RTE Player]. In the background, The Late Late is playing on the TV, with Gay Byrne introducing Terry Keane. In the scene that immediately follows Terry Keane arrives, suggesting that it would not have been unusual for her to spend time at Abbeville, presumably when Maureen was not around.

dbrunson · 13-01-2015 2:42pm

K-9 wrote: »

From what I'v read, yep.

As Minister for Justice he was entitled to extra security around his home, so he got a new wall built around his bungalow. It was about 3 feet tall, wouldn't have stopped the boy scouts attacking, never mind the IRA!

An absolute disgrace as a Minister for Justice but very entertaining!

he is quoted to have said the wall was built 3ft tall to prevent seamus brennan from looking over it

FloatingVoter · 13-01-2015 2:46pm

jezzer wrote: »

really? i assumed it was just with keane because it was a power thing....he obviously only married maureen lemass as a political maneuver and to gain him some standing....presumably they led separate lives....

Its a wonder Sean Lemass didnt destroy him???

There is a story that in the early days Lemass was at a party dinner down the country with Haughey. A member of the hotel staff announced to Haughey within earshot of Lemass that Haughey's wife had arrived and was waiting for him upstairs. Lemass knew damned well that his heavily pregnant daughter was very much in Dublin.

jezzer · 13-01-2015 5:07pm

leck wrote: »

In this week's episode, there's the scene where Jacinta comes to his home looking for money to go to England [starts at about 1:04 on RTE Player]. In the background, The Late Late is playing on the TV, with Gay Byrne introducing Terry Keane. In the scene that immediately follows Terry Keane arrives, suggesting that it would not have been unusual for her to spend time at Abbeville, presumably when Maureen was not around.

No you have it wrong i'm afraid, charlie went and met keane in their suite in the burlington where they used to go at it...

walshb · 13-01-2015 5:09pm

jezzer wrote: »

No you have it wrong i'm afraid, charlie went and met keane in their suite in the burlington where they used to go at it...

Vomit!

jezzer · 13-01-2015 5:09pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

There is a story that in the early days Lemass was at a party dinner down the country with Haughey. A member of the hotel staff announced to Haughey within earshot of Lemass that Haughey's wife had arrived and was waiting for him upstairs. Lemass knew damned well that his heavily pregnant daughter was very much in Dublin.

No way???? effin hell...haughey didnt give 5 f*cks did he? if i was lemass i would have destroyed him....

Does any one know...in episode one, when haughey was elected taoiseach, he invited his auld one to abbeyville but she said she wasnt welcome there, why was that???

jezzer · 13-01-2015 5:11pm

walshb wrote: »

Vomit!

Yes, a very perishable thought indeed.....neither blessed in the looks department....

Meathlass · 13-01-2015 5:18pm

Another story/gossip is that Haughey had a broken arm which he said was as a result of falling off a horse. Supposedly though Keane's husband pushed him down a stairs and he broke it.

realdanbreen · 13-01-2015 5:41pm

K-9 wrote: »

That's completely different to your first blanket statement though. The PD's tax policy was very much aimed at the middle class vote in the 80's and early 90's, it was why they were successful initially, until everybody else stole their clothes.

Exactly what I said actualy,they had zero interest in anyone unemployed or on less than 70k, thats why O'Malley was never liked in Fianna Fail.

jezzer · 13-01-2015 5:44pm

Meathlass wrote: »

Another story/gossip is that Haughey had a broken arm which he said was as a result of falling off a horse. Supposedly though Keane's husband pushed him down a stairs and he broke it.

yes i heard that before....anyone know anything about the story he was beat up outside a pub in west dublin before the budget was due? supposidly it was at the hands of a man whose wife haughey was tipping...

realdanbreen · 13-01-2015 5:44pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

There is a story that in the early days Lemass was at a party dinner down the country with Haughey. A member of the hotel staff announced to Haughey within earshot of Lemass that Haughey's wife had arrived and was waiting for him upstairs. Lemass knew damned well that his heavily pregnant daughter was very much in Dublin.

What the big deal?
I would say 75% of real men have a bit of a fling now and then.

jezzer · 13-01-2015 5:48pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

What the big deal?
I would say 75% of real men have a bit of a fling now and then.

real men? good lad...

D'Agger · 13-01-2015 5:57pm

jezzer wrote: »

real men? good lad...

As in non-ficticious characters :pac:

FloatingVoter · 13-01-2015 6:02pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

What the big deal?
I would say 75% of real men have a bit of a fling now and then.

Lemass hadn't killed a man since the '20s nor ordered one dead since the '30s. The kind eyes and the black heart must have been conflicted that night.
By the way...that tale came from my mother, a civil servant back then. It was going around the CS grapevine in the mid 60s.

Real men having flings is one thing to fantasise about .....betraying your mentors daughter when your mentor is a man capable of ordering death by the dozen is quite another.

mzungu · 13-01-2015 6:14pm

jezzer wrote: »

yes i heard that before....anyone know anything about the story he was beat up outside a pub in west dublin before the budget was due? supposidly it was at the hands of a man whose wife haughey was tipping...

Crikey. Was there anybody that Charlie wasn't with.

Thought the second episode was pretty good. Quite fast paced but enjoyable nonetheless. I assume that scene with him eating the bird was meant to symbolise something, anybody have any idea what? It went over my head.

13-01-2015 6:30pm

mzungu wrote: »

Crikey. Was there anybody that Charlie wasn't with.

Thought the second episode was pretty good. Quite fast paced but enjoyable nonetheless. I assume that scene with him eating the bird was meant to symbolise something, anybody have any idea what? It went over my head.

Id say he went down for a munch on many the bird in his time :pac:

mzungu · 13-01-2015 6:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Id say he went down for a munch on many the bird in his time :pac:

leck · 13-01-2015 7:01pm

jezzer wrote: »

No you have it wrong i'm afraid, charlie went and met keane in their suite in the burlington where they used to go at it...

Ah, you're right. He is wearing the same shirt and tie, but added a jacket in the later scene. He must have left Abbeville to rendevous with her in the Burlington after her appearance on the Late Late. As she comes in the door, she says "as soon as I saw the flowers in the green room, I knew."

13-01-2015 7:02pm

mzungu wrote: »

He might have came up with a bloody mouth too

JaseBelleVie · 13-01-2015 7:08pm

Just echoing Hitchens' story myself a bit.

I never met Charlie Haughey, but my father did a bit. And he (to this day) adores the man. I went for a bite to eat with my father last Friday evening and the topic of politics and all that came up. I have been knocked back several pegs over the last few years by the performance of my own party of choice (Labour), which contrasts with my father's die hard loyalty to his own (Fianna Fáil).

Listening to my father, though, it is easy to see why so many people were so taken in by "The Boss". He may have been 5' 6" and to many people resembled something that came out of the Mines of Mordor, but in person, it was a different ball game. In person, he was meant to have character, charisma and charm like no other politician in Ireland's history (perhaps barring the likes of Bertie Ahern and Brian Crowley [both of whom I have met]). CJH was already in an exalted status with my father even before he ever met him. But my father said that whenever he met him (which was quite often as my father was a really active party member throughout the 80's and 90's), it was like sitting down and talking with your oldest, closest friend.

Despite myself and despite my loathing of most things Fianna Fáil (my father being a definite exception!), I could not help but be drawn in and completely captured by the occasions that I met the two I've mentioned above (Crowley and Ahern). They both just have "it". Whatever "it" is, I don't know. But I was amazed at how personable, charming, open and friendly both men were. I had it in my head that I was going to be frosty and cold to them. But I melted on the spot once I got the big handshake and the smile and the charming patter. Maybe I'm a simpleton and easily led and easily pleased, but I find that once you get to talk to someone, see them up close and get a feeling for who they are (even if the side you see is simply their "political face"), it becomes harder to hate them.

I'm assuming that this is the effect that CJH had upon people up and down the country when at his zenith of power. Alluring and intoxicating.

However, power-mad and avaricious does not even begin to describe the darker side, however.

fryup · 13-01-2015 7:12pm

jezzer wrote: »

yes i heard that before....anyone know anything about the story he was beat up outside a pub in west dublin before the budget was due? supposidly it was at the hands of a man whose wife haughey was tipping...

i heard he was knocking up the daughter of a pub landlord and was caught in the act by said landlord and given a hiding

FloatingVoter · 13-01-2015 7:22pm

JaseHeath wrote: »

Just echoing Hitchens' story myself a bit.

I never met Charlie Haughey, but my father did a bit. And he (to this day) adores the man. I went for a bite to eat with my father last Friday evening and the topic of politics and all that came up. I have been knocked back several pegs over the last few years by the performance of my own party of choice (Labour), which contrasts with my father's die hard loyalty to his own (Fianna Fáil).

Listening to my father, though, it is easy to see why so many people were so taken in by "The Boss". He may have been 5' 6" and to many people resembled something that came out of the Mines of Mordor, but in person, it was a different ball game. In person, he was meant to have character, charisma and charm like no other politician in Ireland's history (perhaps barring the likes of Bertie Ahern and Brian Crowley [both of whom I have met]). CJH was already in an exalted status with my father even before he ever met him. But my father said that whenever he met him (which was quite often as my father was a really active party member throughout the 80's and 90's), it was like sitting down and talking with your oldest, closest friend.

Despite myself and despite my loathing of most things Fianna Fáil (my father being a definite exception!), I could not help but be drawn in and completely captured by the occasions that I met the two I've mentioned above (Crowley and Ahern). They both just have "it". Whatever "it" is, I don't know. But I was amazed at how personable, charming, open and friendly both men were. I had it in my head that I was going to be frosty and cold to them. But I melted on the spot once I got the big handshake and the smile and the charming patter. Maybe I'm a simpleton and easily led and easily pleased, but I find that once you get to talk to someone, see them up close and get a feeling for who they are (even if the side you see is simply their "political face"), it becomes harder to hate them.

I'm assuming that this is the effect that CJH had upon people up and down the country when at his zenith of power. Alluring and intoxicating.

However, power-mad and avaricious does not even begin to describe the darker side, however.

It is charisma and charisma is a trick that belongs to very good actors. Clinton has the dark trick. Ahern, Cowen and Kenny don't no matter how hard they try. Once you're trying, you're failing.
Otherwise sensible people claimed to have been entranced by Hitler....even the ones non-complicit in his crimes. JFK certainly had "it". On the face of the last two you have a second rate Chaplin impersonator and a man with a potato head. But it worked for them.

gormdubhgorm · 13-01-2015 8:31pm

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Charlie's accent is kind of "rural"

where is he from?

The accent is not spot on in this I think, but the intonations are good.

Born in mayo but grew up in Fairview, Dublin north-east.

He tried to imitate his father in law's (Sean Lemass) way of speaking so this is why it sounds a bit odd!

gormdubhgorm · 13-01-2015 8:46pm

grey_so_what wrote: »

Did anyone ever profile CJH at anytime before producing this??......

I doubt it....

Back in 2005....a 4 parter imaginatively entitled "Haughey"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haughey_(TV_series) :rolleyes:

Declan A Walsh · 13-01-2015 9:08pm

Many years ago, I worked for a month or two in Mosney Holiday Camp. One day the Lions Club were organizing a dinner in the dining-room for old folks. I was working behind the scenes in the kitchen, which was really like a factory floor.

Anyway, both Garret Fitzgerald and Charlie Haughey arrived there (not at the same time!). Each man was led from the dining-room to the kitchen area. Garret waved briefly to the staff and disappeared again. Charlie, on the other hand, lingered slightly longer and shook some hands (including mine!). In person, Charlie definitely had charisma, charm and presence, and he cultivated a kind of man of the people image. Garret came across as more aloof, and possibly absent-minded! But who was the more genuine??

Going back to the drama, I thought episode two was very entertaining. Laurence Kinlan did a very good Tony Gregory. The only issue I had with it (and again a possible problem for those not familiar with those times) was that it went through the sequence of events at a fast rate - a year must have been covered in an hour-and-a-half without much warning!

gormdubhgorm · 13-01-2015 9:09pm

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Timotei! lol

Always makes me think of Packie Bonners Save against Romania

Daniel Timofte

See this you tube clip at 4.50

daniel timofte

leck · 13-01-2015 9:10pm

Meathlass wrote: »

Another story/gossip is that Haughey had a broken arm which he said was as a result of falling off a horse. Supposedly though Keane's husband pushed him down a stairs and he broke it.

He had an accident on the morning of 22 April 1970 which resulted in him being brought to hospital. As a result Jack Lynch presented the budget later that day. In the clip at the link below, his election agent gives the official account of the accident, but it has of course been attributed to a beating at a pub.
Election agent for Charles J. Haughey, Patrick O'Connor, reads a statement outlining Haughey's accident on budget day.

Declan A Walsh · 13-01-2015 9:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh he was dodgy ill admit but at least he was tigerish. Look at the pathetic excuses we have today like Kenny and Gilroy for example. At least Haughey would try get us a better deal.

Gilroy? I presume you mean Gilmore (as in Eamon)! He is no longer the Tanaiste of course, being replaced by Joan Burton!

13-01-2015 9:21pm

Declan A Walsh wrote: »

Gilroy? I presume you mean Gilmore (as in Eamon)! He is no longer the Tanaiste of course, being replaced by Joan Burton!

Apologies Gilmore of course. Im making a few of these errors lately but yeah i realise he is no longer Tanaiste and we dont have much in terms of a replacement in Burton.

DazHeath · 13-01-2015 9:22pm

Really enjoying this.

WheatenBriar · 13-01-2015 10:41pm

DazHeath wrote: »

Really enjoying this.

A major trick was missed with this show though
Spread over 10 shows, explaining the backdrop and characters a bit more, this would have made its makers a lot of money selling it abroad

gormdubhgorm · 13-01-2015 11:01pm

Skid X wrote: »

Did that brawl really happen?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Gibbons_(Irish_politician)

Aparrently so "Gibbons regained his seat at the February 1982 general election and voted against Haughey in the leadership challenge that was proposed by Charlie McCreevy. Leaving Leinster House after the vote he was attacked by a number of drunken Fianna Fáil supporters and forced to the ground. A friend of his saw off the attackers. In the aftermath, new swivel doors were erected to prevent mobs pushing their way into the parliament building. The incident was recounted by Desmond O'Malley in the RTÉ documentary series Seven Ages (although O'Malley does not mention Gibbons by name), and was later also referred to in the 2015 RTÉ biographical series Haughey."

He was attacked because of his involvement in the Arms trial "At the subsequent Arms Trial Gibbons would be the chief prosecutorial witness and his evidence would contradict Haughey's. Haughey was found not guilty, therefore Gibbons was alleged to have been the dishonest one, an allegation that affected him deeply."

I seriously doubt there was an iraqi ceremonial sword to save him though!:D

Charlie (RTE1 Charlie Haughey Drama)

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