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Race difficulty, terrain, weather, hills ect...

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  • 25-07-2010 11:05pm
    #1
    Oisin11178
    Registered Users Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭


    Ive always had an interest in this aspect of racing. How much harder are races (timewise) compared to an ideal race with good terrain, weather and a flat course. The one that springs to mind is the connamarathon. How much harder than an ideal race is this?
    Another race thats springs to mind is the recent irish multimarathon half in clontarf with the very strong breeze. Would be especially interested to hear from tunguska on this one. Would also be inteserted to hear from people who ran the bogtrotters marathon the weekend. One person i spoke to said they reckoned it was 1 minute harder than a flatter race which i disagree with. Taking into account the 3 (imo) big climbs and the nearly unrunnable terrain in parts, i would give it at least 5 mins.
    I realise this is subject to peoples opinions and people may not agree but thats what makes interesting.


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    #2
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    The hell of the west in Connemara isn't as bad as people make out. It's just the time it comes in the race that makes it so much tougher and the fact people bitch about it so much.


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    #3
    Oisin11178
    Registered Users Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭Oisin11178


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    The hell of the west in Connemara isn't as bad as people make out. It's just the time it comes in the race that makes it so much tougher and the fact people bitch about it so much.
    Yeah thats what i mean by differing opinions. That hill sounds like mount everest the way some people describe it. How much harder (timewise) do you think Conn is compared to a flat marathon on good running terrain in good weather conditions ect...?


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    #4
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,500 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    I'm guessing that I'm the one person you spoke to (though it was only in the context of the hills, rather than the bog stretches as well!). I think I had to climb an extra hill on the day (so my elevation profile will be slightly different), but looking at the graph, none of the hills were > 70m, which would mean they weren't even of Connemara proportions (around 105m).

    The reason I think that you would not lose that much time is that you don't spend long enough climbing them to really do any damage in terms of exceeding your LT threshold, etc. Sure you slow down on the way up, but if you look at your pace on the way back down again, it'll be faster than your average pace.

    The second bog section was different. It was very dodgy terrain, with bog holes hidden underneath trampled grass. Not good after 23 miles (or 27). Safer to walk, and lose time.

    I think the hills were probably worth 1-2 minutes over a flat course, and the second bog section probably another minute or two. The first bog section was very runnable, if a little mucky.


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    #5
    MisterDrak
    Registered Users Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭MisterDrak


    My two cents worth…

    I ran the Clontarf Half last month and it was the worst conditions I have raced in. The wind on the way back, both beach and path section was crazy.

    I guess you can be reasonable scientific with this race as it was and “out and back”, so there was no difference in the profile (it was flat anyway).

    I was looking for around a 1:35 finish, and the mile splits for the first 8 miles confirm that, however once on to the return beach section, and wooden bridge the times disintegrated.

    M1 7:03
    M2 7:01
    M3 7:09
    M4 7:41
    M5 7:13
    M6 7:22
    M7 7:36
    M8 7:20 Average to this point 7:18 p/m
    M9 8:58
    M10 9:05
    M11 8:37
    M12 8:50 Average for last 4 miles 8:52 p/m
    M13 1:00

    So basically once I turned into the wind I started loosing 1:34 per/mile or a total of 06:16m for the race.

    I would have like to know the wind speed into the face in the beach section?


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    #6
    Oisin11178
    Registered Users Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭Oisin11178


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    I'm guessing that I'm the one person you spoke to (though it was only in the context of the hills, rather than the bog stretches as well!). I think I had to climb an extra hill on the day (so my elevation profile will be slightly different), but looking at the graph, none of the hills were > 70m, which would mean they weren't even of Connemara proportions (around 105m).

    The reason I think that you would not lose that much time is that you don't spend long enough climbing them to really do any damage in terms of exceeding your LT threshold, etc. Sure you slow down on the way up, but if you look at your pace on the way back down again, it'll be faster than your average pace.

    The second bog section was different. It was very dodgy terrain, with bog holes hidden underneath trampled grass. Not good after 23 miles (or 27). Safer to walk, and lose time.

    I think the hills were probably worth 1-2 minutes over a flat course, and the second bog section probably another minute or two. The first bog section was very runnable, if a little mucky.
    70ish metres of climb over a mile is alot to me and yeah i recovered pretty well as i wasnt at race pace but id say that that first hill really affected some people and the hill at 16-17 miles even more so due to its position in the race. I dont thinks its as simple as regain on the time back down. I think many people will recuperate on the way down. I take on board that it wasnt as hilly as conn but it couldnt of been a million miles away surely. How much time are the hills in conn worth in your opinion?
    Misterdrak i was losing between 1.15 and 1.30 a mile in the last 4 also. Absolutly dreadful conditions but it made it eventful.


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    #7
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,500 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    The general consensus with regard to the Connemara hills is 3-5 minutes, but then again, it's a point to point race (for the marathon/half), and has slightly more uphill than downhill (around 21m for the full).

    It really all comes down to how much hill-work people include in their training. Someone who trains entirely on the flat is going to struggle more than someone who includes hills in their LSRs (psychologically too).


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    #8
    Gringo78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭Gringo78


    MisterDrak wrote: »
    I was looking for around a 1:35 finish, and the mile splits for the first 8 miles confirm that, however once on to the return beach section, and wooden bridge the times disintegrated.

    Problem with an out and back course running into the wind for the back half, is that people invariably run too slow with the wind. A strong wind can account for an actual effort of 20sec a mile difference. Therefore a target HM pace of 7:15 with a strong wind influence should maybe be run 6:55 with the wind, 7:35 against the wind. If you run only 7:15 with the wind, then you are are actually running the first 10.5k at around PMP effort. Then when you turn into the wind for the last 10.5k and try to hold 7:15 pace, you are actually running approx 10k pace effort which you are not going to be able to hold considering you just ran 10.5k at a brisk pace (not HM pace, but PMP for 10.5k is still tough).

    Likewise, if you start the out and back into the wind and try to hold your target HM pace of 7:15, you will be spent after 9 or 10k. A tough course should only cost you a minute or 2 at most (it will cost you time because you lose more into the wind than you gain back with the wind), but will cost you a lot more than that unless you have very good course management.


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    #9
    MisterDrak
    Registered Users Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭MisterDrak


    Gringo78 wrote: »
    Problem with an out and back course running into the wind for the back half, is that people invariably run too slow with the wind. A strong wind can account for an actual effort of 20sec a mile difference. Therefore a target HM pace of 7:15 with a strong wind influence should maybe be run 6:55 with the wind, 7:35 against the wind. If you run only 7:15 with the wind, then you are are actually running the first 10.5k at around PMP effort. Then when you turn into the wind for the last 10.5k and try to hold 7:15 pace, you are actually running approx 10k pace effort which you are not going to be able to hold considering you just ran 10.5k at a brisk pace (not HM pace, but PMP for 10.5k is still tough).

    Likewise, if you start the out and back into the wind and try to hold your target HM pace of 7:15, you will be spent after 9 or 10k. A tough course should only cost you a minute or 2 at most (it will cost you time because you lose more into the wind than you gain back with the wind), but will cost you a lot more than that unless you have very good course management.


    I hear what you are saying, however on the day that conditions did
    deteriorate quiet a bit over the course of the race. While the wind was at the back for the first 4-5 miles, it was a gently breese. Then we hit cover on the Howth Road after the cause way road. We still had partial cover on the way back until the beach section (mile 9 to finish). You can probably see from the splits i posted, should no real slowing from the turn (6.5) to mile 9.

    At that stage in the race (mile 9 - about 12pm), the winds were really blowing hard. There was no way I or I guess even more of the experenced guys could hold anything like expected pace.

    Just out of interest is there any other mile splits out there for some of the faster guys for the Clontaft Half?


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    #10
    SnappyDresser
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭SnappyDresser


    I definitely that the Bogtrotters marathon harder than Connemara for me...hills, bog paths, bog roads, crazy ploughed grass section, rocks, stones, field at the end...definitely harder for me...


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    #11
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Oisin11178 wrote: »
    Yeah thats what i mean by differing opinions. That hill sounds like mount everest the way some people describe it. How much harder (timewise) do you think Conn is compared to a flat marathon on good running terrain in good weather conditions ect...?

    No idea myself as I've only done the Ultra there, but if you compare Ciobanu's time from Connemara this year, on a very hot day - to his time from Cork this year on a very wet day, there is about 6 minutes in the difference(we won't mention his bogtrotters time :D ) I honestly think there's probably only a couple of minutes in it between a flat marathon and Connemara.


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    #12
    Oisin11178
    Registered Users Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭Oisin11178


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    No idea myself as I've only done the Ultra there, but if you compare Ciobanu's time from Connemara this year, on a very hot day - to his time from Cork this year on a very wet day, there is about 6 minutes in the difference(we won't mention his bogtrotters time :D ) I honestly think there's probably only a couple of minutes in it between a flat marathon and Connemara.
    Thing is in the main peoples times from conn are normally dramatically slower than say their pbs on a flatter course. Ive seen it mant times on here when people quote their finishing times and then quote their pb. The difference is normally a lot more than a few minutes.


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    #13
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,500 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    You can't just take the course profile into account. Nobody will have done the same level of training for two specific races or be at the same level of fitness, the weather will never be similar and they may not even have the same target (Sergiu for example). The first half of Connemara is very easy as it is net downhill. If you're the kind of person who thrives on an easy first half, you may do even better in 'Con.

    A Friend of mine has a 10 minute PB in Connemara over his DCM time (but I put it down to the fact that he had a really good pacer :)).


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    #14
    Aquals
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Aquals


    MisterDrak wrote: »
    My two cents worth…

    I ran the Clontarf Half last month and it was the worst conditions I have raced in. The wind on the way back, both beach and path section was crazy.

    I guess you can be reasonable scientific with this race as it was and “out and back”, so there was no difference in the profile (it was flat anyway).

    I was looking for around a 1:35 finish, and the mile splits for the first 8 miles confirm that, however once on to the return beach section, and wooden bridge the times disintegrated.

    M1 7:03
    M2 7:01
    M3 7:09
    M4 7:41
    M5 7:13
    M6 7:22
    M7 7:36
    M8 7:20 Average to this point 7:18 p/m
    M9 8:58
    M10 9:05
    M11 8:37
    M12 8:50 Average for last 4 miles 8:52 p/m
    M13 1:00

    So basically once I turned into the wind I started loosing 1:34 per/mile or a total of 06:16m for the race.

    I would have like to know the wind speed into the face in the beach section?
    The fact that you were getting tired in the second half of the race could also have been a factor in those times, couldn't it?


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    #15
    hot to trot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭hot to trot


    I think the runner's pace might be a factor in how much of a time difference between courses. Maybe for speedy types like Krusty,RQ and Oisin it may be five minutes but for those of us down the back making them look good, it might be more like 10.

    I enjoyed the bogtrotters but it cost me a calf injury that I need for two weeks time. Bah.,First injury for me and bad timing.


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    #16
    TFBubendorfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    No idea myself as I've only done the Ultra there, but if you compare Ciobanu's time from Connemara this year, on a very hot day - to his time from Cork this year on a very wet day, there is about 6 minutes in the difference(we won't mention his bogtrotters time :D ) I honestly think there's probably only a couple of minutes in it between a flat marathon and Connemara.

    Connemara wasn't THAT hot, and the wind in Cork slowed us all down - if anything, I think Cork had the "slower" conditions this year (not the course, just the weather).

    I ran 3:12 in Dingle last year (roughly comparable to Connemara) and rate it the same as my 3:05 in Dublin the year before.


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    #17
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,500 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    TFBubendorfer wrote: »
    Connemara wasn't THAT hot, and the wind in Cork slowed us all down - if anything, I think Cork had the "slower" conditions this year (not the course, just the weather).

    I ran 3:12 in Dingle last year (roughly comparable to Connemara) and rate it the same as my 3:05 in Dublin the year before.
    It was 24'C by the time we were heading for the big climb, a temperature that we have barely seen since (in one of the hottest summers in recorded history in this country), so for early April, when runners are still acclimatised to snowy conditions(!) it was relatively very hot.

    When Haile Gebreselassie failed to beat his own world record time in Berlin in September '09, he cited the heat as the main reason for missing his target. The temperature? 24'C. It doesn't have to be terribly hot to affect one's performance. It just has to be hotter.


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    #18
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Weather is all down to personal opinion aswell. I perform much better in cork like weather, I'd love to wake up on the day of a goal marathon and see cork weather. When I realized what the conn weather would be like I put all thoughts of 6 hours out of my mind. That's just me, when it's hot I'll generally forget about a pb and just enjoy the day its pretty much the only rule I have when it comes to racing.


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    #19
    TFBubendorfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    It was 24'C by the time we were heading for the big climb, a temperature that we have barely seen since (in one of the hottest summers in recorded history in this country)

    Are your sure? I heard that the temperatures never exceeded 20'C that day. I really don't think it was 24, I would have wilted in the sun.


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    #20
    TFBubendorfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    There you go. According to wunderground.com, the max temperature in Galway that day was 19 degrees, and that was not reached until 4 o'clock in the afternoon:

    http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/EINN/2010/4/11/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

    I declare myself right. :p


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    #21
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,500 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    TFBubendorfer wrote: »
    Are your sure? I heard that the temperatures never exceeded 20'C that day. I really don't think it was 24, I would have wilted in the sun.
    Like you, I 'heard' that it was 24'C. but I too would have wilted in the sun at that temperature.
    Shannon is traditionally way cooler than Connemara. :)


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    #22
    Mick Rice
    Registered Users Posts: 467 ✭✭Mick Rice


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    No idea myself as I've only done the Ultra there, but if you compare Ciobanu's time from Connemara this year, on a very hot day - to his time from Cork this year on a very wet day, there is about 6 minutes in the difference(we won't mention his bogtrotters time :D ) I honestly think there's probably only a couple of minutes in it between a flat marathon and Connemara.


    I have to agree here. IMHO there's only 2:00 - 2:30 difference between Connemara and other, much flatter marathons, like say Dublin or Cork - at about 3:00 - 3:30 pace. In fairness that gap might expand a bit as the person's expected finishing time goes up but that's logical as well. I always allow about a minute for the hill out of Leenaun and a minute for the HOTW, and, once you factor that in from the start I don't think there should be much more of a difference.

    I do believe that many half marathoners get into trouble by pushing too hard on the first hill rather than accepting that they will loose time there and saving their big effort for later in the race. They arrive at the second mile marker in trouble and never recover sufficiently to run up to their potential.

    Experience on the course counts for a hell of a lot. In the ultra this year I ran fairly even splits (1:29:20, 1:28:36, 1:30:37) in finishing fifth, but three of the four runners ahead of me had slower splits for the leg out of Leenaun. I'd guess that's because they hadn't as much experience of the route as I had.


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    #23
    Oisin11178
    Registered Users Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭Oisin11178


    In you guys opinion what is the fastest marathon course you have ever done?


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    #24
    Mick Rice
    Registered Users Posts: 467 ✭✭Mick Rice


    Oisin11178 wrote: »
    In you guys opinion what is the fastest marathon course you have ever done?

    Longford.


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    #25
    Oisin11178
    Registered Users Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭Oisin11178


    Mick Rice wrote: »
    Longford.

    Have to agree with you there mick. Great for a first time marathon. Was my first and g intend to do it every year. My pb course in blackpool was pancake flat also.


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    #26
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,500 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Oisin11178 wrote: »
    In you guys opinion what is the fastest marathon course you have ever done?
    Berlin. Or possibly Barcelona (cos it's cooler, but you didn't ask about the weather did you?), though Barcelona has a couple of gentle hills towards the end. In Ireland? Longford.


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    #27
    Oisin11178
    Registered Users Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭Oisin11178


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Berlin. Or possibly Barcelona (cos it's cooler, but you didn't ask about the weather did you?), though Barcelona has a couple of gentle hills towards the end. In Ireland? Longford.

    Yeah the weather goes hand in hand with course elevation i think. like the weather in edinburgh was brutally hot the last few years but the course is flatish.


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    #28
    Gringo78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭Gringo78


    TFBubendorfer wrote: »
    There you go. According to wunderground.com, the max temperature in Galway that day was 19 degrees, and that was not reached until 4 o'clock in the afternoon:

    http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/EINN/2010/4/11/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

    I declare myself right. :p

    Temperatures in weather stations are recorded in the shade, the actual temperature directly in the sun will be hotter so it probably was 24degC. 24deg v's 16degC would add 4min to a marathon in the 3-3:15 range so probably the heat had more of an effect than HOTW in connemara.


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    #29
    Mick Rice
    Registered Users Posts: 467 ✭✭Mick Rice


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Berlin. Or possibly Barcelona (cos it's cooler, but you didn't ask about the weather did you?), though Barcelona has a couple of gentle hills towards the end. In Ireland? Longford.


    Krusty - I'd absolutely agree that Berlin is a super fast route, and so is London, but the problem with both races is that ordinary runners don't usually get to run fast on them in the race as they're far too crowded, which is why I much prefer the Irish marathons over their more glitzy counterparts in Europe and America. I've lost count of the people who've told me that they're targetting a quick time in London, Berlin or another similar race only for their effort to disipate on the thousands of pointy elbows that surround them for the first half of the race. In London in 2005 I ran what felt like an even effort the whole way around and had splits of 1:27:** and 1:22:**.

    Whenever I hear that somebody has broken 3:00:00 in London or Berlin I always say to myself 'Wow - they were probably in 2:50 shape that day!"


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    #30
    hunnymonster
    Registered Users Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭hunnymonster


    Oisin11178 wrote: »
    In you guys opinion what is the fastest marathon course you have ever done?
    Seville


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    #31
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,500 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Mick Rice wrote: »
    Krusty - I'd absolutely agree that Berlin is a super fast route, and so is London, but the problem with both races is that ordinary runners don't usually get to run fast on them in the race as they're far too crowded, which is why I much prefer the Irish marathons over their more glitzy counterparts in Europe and America
    Barcelona is actually a Dublin-sized marathon, but yeah, Berlin is a behemoth, and the sheer force of numbers means that even at the pointy end of the race, you will be faced by a huge number of walkers, as those who failed to achieve their goals do the walk of shame along the race line.

    Longford will always hold a soft-spot as it stole my marathon virginity. It is the bog-trotters, without the bog. After the muscles pain and niggles are just a distant memory, you will remember how you ran, not where you ran though, as running on national roads doesn't bring a tear to the eye, like Connemara, with its lakes and mountains....and hills...

    I think there is a place for all these races. Sometimes you need the razzmatazz of the big spectacle, and at other times you need the peace and solitude of a Longford, Connemara or a Bogtrotter. But for me, Barcelona is a runner's marathon rather than a spectators marathon, as different to Berlin as Connemara is, and a worthy reward for those willing to train through the harsh winter (followed by Connemara a few weeks later :)).


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