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J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

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    #632
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    FVP3 wrote: »
    In fact most people are ok with fully transitioned transwomen having the rights of women, this was the case in fact until recently. It is the rise of the self determination movement which claims no difference between a biological man who has under gone no transition that is clearly problematic, not just in practice but in theory. It erases biological women as a sex category.

    Not completely, for me personally, because a fully transitioned transwoman will retain most of their male strength* and there's no reason to believe shouldn't still be included under male patterns of criminality. I personally think there should be some spaces just for biological females and the intersex people who are phenotypically women.

    *unless they don't go through puberty, which is ethically wrong, IMO.


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    #633
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I have, but the statement itself isn’t controversial.

    How can you say this?

    It's highly controversial.

    It's even on RTE today - https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2020/0609/1146278-daniel-radcliffe-responds-to-jk-rowlings-tweets/

    I think what you're trying to say is it shouldn't be controversial, however, it is. Because idiots virtue signalling.


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    #634
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    volchitsa wrote: »
    If you're going to make a fuss about factual inaccuracy in others, maybe get your own facts right too?

    Having a uterus is a necessary but not sufficient condition for menstruation - there also needs to be a balanced menstrual cycle of hormone-production or, failing that, administration of the required hormones, varying according to the period within the cycle. And ovaries are also required for actual egg production.


    I was correct in suggesting that the presence or absence of a uterus is a prerequisite for mensuration then. Grand.

    volchitsa wrote: »
    So after the uterus is implanted, the recipient ill not only need to take the same strong immunosuppressants that all organ transplants require, but also a daily (at least) regimen of hormones that will closely mimic all the stages of the menstrual cycle and then of pregnancy.

    What could possibly go wrong with that?
    Yeah, the only obstacle I can see there is just a matter of feelings really.


    There’s plenty can go wrong with it, just as there is plenty can go wrong in any organ transplantation, which medicine tries to mitigate against. It hasn’t stopped us from performing all sorts of organ and tissue transplants, so yes, the only obstacle is the ethics of it.


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    #635
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    FVP3 wrote: »
    In fact most people are ok with fully transitioned transwomen having the rights of women, this was the case in fact until recently. It is the rise of the self determination movement which claims no difference between a biological man who has under gone no transition that is clearly problematic, not just in practice but in theory. It erases biological women as a sex category.
    If that is the case, it also logically erases biological men as a sex category.

    Why is it only an issue that women are apparently under attack?

    I would like to point out for the record that self-determination has been possible in Ireland for five years, and society has not collapsed, and women have not had their biology or their rights erased.


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    #636
    Girly Gal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭Girly Gal


    JoannaJag wrote: »
    And if I get a tail surgically sewn onto my ass, am I now a donkey?

    No, it would make you an ass :D


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    #637
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    One eyed Jack wrote: »


    There’s plenty can go wrong with it, just as there is plenty can go wrong in any organ transplantation, which medicine tries to mitigate against. It hasn’t stopped us from performing all sorts of organ and tissue transplants, so yes, the only obstacle is the ethics of it.

    Yes. Head transplants are technically a possibility also.


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    #638
    JoannaJag
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭JoannaJag


    seamus wrote: »
    If that is the case, it also logically erases biological men as a sex category.

    Why is it only an issue that women are apparently under attack?

    I would like to point out for the record that self-determination has been possible in Ireland for five years, and society has not collapsed, and women have not had their biology or their rights erased.

    Tell that to my 9 year old daughter who was told at school this year that a boy in her class IS a girl because he feels like a girl, and that she and the other girls in her class would be expected to share a communal changing room with him for swimming going forward. Just as they are on the cusp of puberty and learning about privacy, womanhood and bodily autonomy.

    Society may not have collapsed but girls and women’s rights are absolutely being erased. Here, in Ireland, right now.


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    #639
    JoannaJag
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭JoannaJag


    Girly Gal wrote: »
    No, it would make you an ass :D

    Agreed!


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    #640
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    JoannaJag wrote: »
    Tell that to my 9 year old daughter who was told at school this year that a boy in her class IS a girl because he feels like a girl, and that she and the other girls in her class would be expected to share a communal changing room with him for swimming going forward. Just as they are on the cusp of puberty and learning about privacy, womanhood and bodily autonomy.

    Society may not have collapsed but girls and women’s rights are absolutely being erased. Here, in Ireland, right now.
    What does a child using a communal changing room have to do with bodily autonomy, womanhood or privacy?

    What you're saying that privacy and bodily autonomy don't exist when in same-sex groups. Why should your daughter only have the right to privacy when there's a penis in the room? Why do you willinging allow these rights to be erased when she's in a penis-free environment?

    Do you not think that a better approach would be a general discussion on the right to privacy from everyone else, regardless of gender?


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    #641
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    seamus wrote: »
    If that is the case, it also logically erases biological men as a sex category.

    Why is it only an issue that women are apparently under attack?

    I would like to point out for the record that self-determination has been possible in Ireland for five years, and society has not collapsed, and women have not had their biology or their rights erased.

    Not for me, as I alluded to in this post:
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    True. But even though women are more physically vulnerable, men deserve privacy in their sex-segregated spaces too. But there just seems to be less hullabaloo about it.

    The focus is probably more on women because we are more physically vulnerable.

    And I'll tell you something else, Seamus. Many women and especially many girls, do not tell people of the creepy things that have happened to them at the hands of men. I was 11 years old the first time a man said something lewd to me. Can you tell me for sure that self-ID has caused no issues since it was introduced? Girls don't necessarily have the language to say that something happened to them AND there is now the added complication that you can't assume somebody's gender now. That uncertainty undermines safeguarding. We'd love to think that everything gets reported but everyone knows that isn't the case. We can't live by optimism bias. Personally, I'd rather not wait for something terrible to happen for protections to be reinstated. I do feel that women's sex-based rights have been eroded in Ireland. Am I just a massive bigot to feel that way?


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    #642
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Gruffalox wrote: »
    Yes. Head transplants are technically a possibility also.


    They are at least a possibility, and again it would be ethics would determine whether or not they should be done, same as cloning and face transplants.

    In reality science, medicine and technology will always be pushing boundaries, and be constrained by law, the same laws which determines human rights. Dress it up however we like but fundamentally our laws are based upon feelings.


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    #643
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Am I just a massive bigot to feel that way?
    Yes.

    In effect what you're saying is that you'd prefer to discriminate against all men and treat them as potential criminals, rather than take a more balanced and nuanced approach to public safety.


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    #644
    carolmon
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭carolmon


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Yes I mean men, and I mean women. There was no obfuscation of language there. You’re doing the same as JK in trying to make the point that because I referred to people, I wasn’t also referring to women. You’re looking for offence where there was none intended.

    You said women don't talk to other people about menstruation only amongst themselves ...that by definition excludes women from "other people"


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    #645
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    seamus wrote: »
    What does a child using a communal changing room have to do with bodily autonomy, womanhood or privacy?

    What you're saying that privacy and bodily autonomy don't exist when in same-sex groups. Why should your daughter only have the right to privacy when there's a penis in the room? Why do you willinging allow these rights to be erased when she's in a penis-free environment?

    Do you not think that a better approach would be a general discussion on the right to privacy from everyone else, regardless of gender?

    If there are fully enclosed cubicles and fully enclosed showers and fully enclosed toilet spaces in all cases ensuring privacy and safety for everyone I don't have an objection.

    Issues may also arise re people who cross sex identify as girls or boys using dormitories or tents on school trips or activity outings eg scouts. Cross sex identification should not give the automatic right to access single sex spaces in these cases. Separate facilities may be made available for everyones privacy.


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    #646
    JoannaJag
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭JoannaJag


    seamus wrote: »
    What does a child using a communal changing room have to do with bodily autonomy, womanhood or privacy?

    What you're saying that privacy and bodily autonomy don't exist when in same-sex groups. Why should your daughter only have the right to privacy when there's a penis in the room? Why do you willinging allow these rights to be erased when she's in a penis-free environment?

    Do you not think that a better approach would be a general discussion on the right to privacy from everyone else, regardless of gender?

    I think that’s a really, really important discussion to have. I also think we need to acknowledge that vulva- owners are statistically more at risk of violent crime from penis-havers than from other women. I believe that’s one of the primary reasons for separating men and women on the first place. Of course if we do not keep the biological categories distinct then these statistics become rather meaningless. Which is handy, if you are a penis-having abuser, trans or otherwise. It doesn’t really benefit anyone else.

    Just so we are clear I don’t think any of the testicle owning children in my daughter’s class are a particular risk to her. They are all very sweet children. I even have my own delightful testosterone producing offspring. But I do think there are good reasons for uterus owners to be separated from testicle-havers when we are at our most vulnerable.


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    #647
    carolmon
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭carolmon


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    If what you’re striving for is accuracy from a biological, medical and scientific perspective. It’s simply because they have a uterus that they mensurate, without it they do not.

    This whole discussion is about women's biology please learn the terminology
    the word is menstruate not mensurate

    mensurate(Verb) To measure absolutely the height, lattitude and longitude of a point on the earth. mensurate(Verb) To measure accurately and precisely the position of an object

    menstruate
    /ˈmɛnstrʊeɪt/
    verb
    (of a woman) discharge blood and other material from the lining of the uterus as part of the menstrual cycle.


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    #648
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    seamus wrote: »
    Yes.

    In effect what you're saying is that you'd prefer to discriminate against all men and treat them as potential criminals, rather than take a more balanced and nuanced approach to public safety.

    When it comes to safeguarding, the strictest possible guidelines are the ones that should be in place. The vast majority of men will not harm anyone. But we need to plan for the worst case scenario, not the best. And transgender women are biologically male and therefore there is no reason to believe that they shouldn't be categorised under male patterns of criminality unless somebody can tell me at what point in the transition process the change to female pattern criminality occurs.

    I notice many men are very vocal about this supposed bigotry because they have the least to lose. There is a reason that sex-segregated spaces were fought for. And little boys are recognised as vulnerable too and are brought into those sex-segregated spaces by their mothers with the blessing of society because we recognise too their vulnerability and need for protection.

    I'm also puzzled as to why the safety fears of transgender women are taken deadly seriously but the safety fears of women are shrugged off as bigotry.


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    #649
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    And transgender women are biologically male and therefore there is no reason to believe that they shouldn't be categorised under male patterns of criminality unless somebody can tell me at what point in the transition process the change to female pattern criminality occurs.
    Are there areas where women are more prolific in terms of negative or criminal behavior?


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    #650
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    iptba wrote: »
    Are there areas where women are more prolific in terms of negative or criminal behavior?

    There could well be. I'm not sure. Do you know? I know men are responsible for most violent crime. AND even if it was 50/50 for violent crime (which it isn't), men have the potential to do more damage to women on average because of the strength differential. I'm sure there could be things that women are more responsible for. But I don't have the information at hand.

    This issue is about physical differences and the crimes related to it. Do you argue that there is no difference there?


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    #651
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    On the safety, discrimination against males type arguments - it is known that women are more likely maybe exclusively to exercise Munchausen by Proxy type harm on their children. Just because this fact presumptively discriminates against women and regardless of the rarity of occurence among women as a whole, still safe guarding children requires medical professionals to be alert for this possibility when diagnosing injury to children.
    Another apparently discriminatory presumption that speaks to safeguarding would be FGM, for example. But medical professionals will be more alert in certain circumstances than in others.
    This might appear discriminatory but thems the breaks. Real life is happening at too fast a pace to allow for ideological policing of all activities.


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    #652
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    carolmon wrote: »
    You said women don't talk to other people about menstruation only amongst themselves ...that by definition excludes women from "other people"


    Again, you’re looking for offence where none was intended. I also commonly refer to women and girls as lads or guys when I’m speaking to a group of them. Not once has anyone ever been so offended as to think I should have to be corrected on it or that I wasn’t using the correct terminology. They understood the broader point i was attempting to make.

    By that same token, I have about the same amount of time for people who fester on the correct use of pronouns and spelling.


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    #653
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,873 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    seamus wrote: »
    If that is the case, it also logically erases biological men as a sex category.

    Why is it only an issue that women are apparently under attack?

    I would like to point out for the record that self-determination has been possible in Ireland for five years, and society has not collapsed, and women have not had their biology or their rights erased.

    Yeah only that gets conveniently forgotten around here.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #654
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    JoannaJag wrote: »
    Tell that to my 9 year old daughter who was told at school this year that a boy in her class IS a girl because he feels like a girl, and that she and the other girls in her class would be expected to share a communal changing room with him for swimming going forward. Just as they are on the cusp of puberty and learning about privacy, womanhood and bodily autonomy.

    Society may not have collapsed but girls and women’s rights are absolutely being erased. Here, in Ireland, right now.

    There’s a lady on Twitter that mentions in her profile that she’s a sex positive parent and has x amount of cis kids and x amount of trans kids


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    #655
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Yeah only that gets conveniently forgotten around here.

    I didn't forget about it. I had already commented upon it before Seamus did. Men deserve their sex-segregated spaces too.

    And outlined why I believe sex-based have been eroded over the last five years. Unless you think every transgression gets reported. In which case - LOL.


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    #656
    JoannaJag
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭JoannaJag


    I think it is forgotten - because people aren’t yelling Trans Men are Men! And taking photos of themselves in men’s toilets and advertising Gillette razors to beard owners or medical advice to testicle bearers.

    Maybe when they start that, men might start getting pissed off too. That’s up to them though. I’m busy enough fighting for women’s rights to worry about ejaculators too.


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    #657
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    JoannaJag wrote: »
    I think it is forgotten - because people aren’t yelling Trans Men are Men! And taking photos of themselves in men’s toilets and advertising Gillette razors to beard owners or medical advice to testicle bearers.

    Maybe when they start that, men might start getting pissed off too. That’s up to them though. I’m busy enough fighting for women’s rights to worry about ejaculators too.

    How is your own little ejaculator coming along by the way....do you think he is a potential rapist? Are you happy for him to be socially reconstructed as a care giver?


    I'm on the side of sanity in this conversation by the way, no young girl/women should be exposed to any danger....I am merely pointing out how horrible the conversations have become these days because of f##ked up ideologies that are being taken way too seriously and many of which are being funded by the taxpayer.


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    #658
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,873 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    How is your own little ejaculator coming along by the way....do you think he is a potential rapist? Are you happy for him to be socially reconstructed as a care giver?


    I'm on the side of sanity in this conversation by the way, no young girl/women should be exposed to any danger....I am merely pointing out how horrible the conversations have become these days because of f##ked up ideologies that are being taken way too seriously and many of which are being funded by the taxpayer.

    Yep. Lots of people weighing in on the mysogyny against JKR but perfectly fine with all the transphobic hate unleashed. Hypocrysy really.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #659
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    JoannaJag wrote: »
    I think it is forgotten - because people aren’t yelling Trans Men are Men! And taking photos of themselves in men’s toilets and advertising Gillette razors to beard owners or medical advice to testicle bearers.

    Maybe when they start that, men might start getting pissed off too. That’s up to them though. I’m busy enough fighting for women’s rights to worry about ejaculators too.

    Wonder when the public health advertisements reminding 'people with prostates' and 'people with testicles' to get them checked will appear. :)

    I think the HSE now mentions women in their cervical cancer literature again but for a time, they didn't. This is a health body that should be committed to providing accurate information and achieving maximum impact and they briefly pandered.


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    #660
    DrGreenThumb82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭DrGreenThumb82


    Clicked into this thread for the first time.

    I'm lost for words.

    Out.


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    #661
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    How is your own little ejaculator coming along by the way....do you think he is a potential rapist? Are you happy for him to be socially reconstructed as a care giver?


    I'm on the side of sanity in this conversation by the way, no young girl/women should be exposed to any danger....I am merely pointing out how horrible the conversations have become these days because of f##ked up ideologies that are being taken way too seriously and many of which are being funded by the taxpayer.

    Forgive me, but you're all over the place here.


This discussion has been closed.
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