Can I kick her out?

never_mind · 24-04-2020 5:36pm #1

Hi everyone

We have a student in ‘digs’ with us. She is a friend’s cousin and we were helping her out for college accommodation. With covid we expected her to head home but she decided to stay. Her attitude has been fairly rotten since then including drinking a lot, being very dirty, not helping around house, and smoking in her room. We’ve done everything to try and sort these issues out with her but i think we have to give her the heave ho soon.

As covid seems to be here for the long term I wonder how and when I should broach then topic with her. She is a licensee I guess but our mental health is suffering with her. We were going to give her the summer and tell her she would have to head home by early August. Nothing has been decided and I just wanted to see what you all thought first.

benjy1000 · 24-04-2020 5:41pm

never_mind wrote: »

Hi everyone

We have a student in ‘digs’ with us. She is a friend’s cousin and we were helping her out for college accommodation. With covid we expected her to head home but she decided to stay. Her attitude has been fairly rotten since then including drinking a lot, being very dirty, not helping around house, and smoking in her room. We’ve done everything to try and sort these issues out with her but i think we have to give her the heave ho soon.

As covid seems to be here for the long term I wonder how and when I should broach then topic with her. She is a licensee I guess but our mental health is suffering with her. We were going to give her the summer and tell her she would have to head home by early August. Nothing has been decided and I just wanted to see what you all thought first.

Out ta f**k now, let its cousin take it in.
Mad stuff

endacl · 24-04-2020 5:41pm

It’s apparently a grey area.

What isn’t a grey area is access to your kitchen. Put a lock on it.

Access to bathrooms and toilets. Put a lock on them.

Access to services such as WiFi. Change your codes.

Access to anything that isn’t the room she rented from you, in short.

Claw Hammer · 24-04-2020 5:43pm

endacl wrote: »

It’s apparently a grey area.

What isn’t a grey area is access to your kitchen. Put a lock on it.

Access to bathrooms and toilets. Put a lock on them.

Access to services such as WiFi. Change your codes.

Access to anything that isn’t the room she rented from you, in short.

There is no grey area. Put her out.

drunkmonkey · 24-04-2020 5:46pm

Find her safe passage home tonight. Surprised this is even a question she shouldn't be there in the first place.

martinr5232 · 24-04-2020 5:50pm

never_mind wrote:

We have a student in â€˜digsâ€™ with us. She is a friendâ€™s cousin and we were helping her out for college accommodation. With covid we expected her to head home but she decided to stay. Her attitude has been fairly rotten since then including drinking a lot, being very dirty, not helping around house, and smoking in her room. Weâ€™ve done everything to try and sort these issues out with her but i think we have to give her the heave ho soon.

No good deed goes unpunished :-) Get her out ta f#$k shes not your problem and she has somewhere else to go.

never_mind · 24-04-2020 6:07pm

I know under normal circumstances She’d be gone but I’m just worried that we’d some how get in trouble if we did kick her out. That she might take a case against us etc. Hmmm

Claw Hammer · 24-04-2020 6:12pm

never_mind wrote: »

I know under normal circumstances She’d be gone but I’m just worried that we’d some how get in trouble if we did kick her out. That she might take a case against us etc. Hmmm

She has no grounds to take any case. Wasters like that never take cases anyway. She is not going to pay a solicitor to write to you!

never_mind · 24-04-2020 6:17pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

She has no grounds to take any case. Wasters like that never take cases anyway. She is not going to pay a solicitor to write to you!

It’s getting bad but think we will live with it until restrictions are lifted somewhat so she can view other places. My friend won’t have her and I don’t think her parents are keen on her (imagine!)

Claw Hammer · 24-04-2020 6:20pm

never_mind wrote: »

It’s getting bad but think we will live with it until restrictions are lifted somewhat so she can view other places. My friend won’t have her and I don’t think her parents are keen on her (imagine!)

If her relations don't want her, why are you keeping her?

never_mind · 24-04-2020 7:05pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

If her relations don't want her, why are you keeping her?

Covid at this stage tbh

jimmycrackcorm · 24-04-2020 7:15pm

never_mind wrote: »

It’s getting bad but think we will live with it until restrictions are lifted somewhat so she can view other places. My friend won’t have her and I don’t think her parents are keen on her (imagine!)

Change the lock on the front door.

It's not your problem. Give her two days notice. She can go back to her parents. She doesn't have any rights to stay in your home any longer than that as a licencee.

There have been other similar threads. If you search then you'll find such troublesome licencees ended up going without any recourse and the owners put up with their crap for too long.

Slydice · 24-04-2020 7:49pm

You might be risking having to give her €20,000 and having to take her back into your digs if you kick her out.

From previous posts:

Slydice wrote: »

From what I know, tenant is the word being used and sometimes tenant just means tenant.

That sometimes, there's another word used for lodgers / rent-a-room / digs and that word is usually: licensee
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/sharing_accommodation_with_your_landlord.html

If you are renting a room in your landlord's home, your situation is very different. You do not have a standard tenancy agreement. Instead, you have a licensee agreement with your landlord.

Just checking the Act of Law...
the final one listed here "27 Mar 2020": https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2020/4/
direct link to the pdf:
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/act/2020/2/eng/enacted/a0220.pdf

well checking the Act of Law.. in:

PART 2
OPERATION OF RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004

It has this in the Interpretation section 3. -> (2) -> (b)

references to tenant shall be construed as including references to licensee

Slydice wrote: »

I think this was added yesterday/last night sometime:
Guidance Document on COVID-19 Supports for Landlords and Tenants (pdf 361.53 KB)
https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/guidance_document_support_for_landlords_and_tenants.pdf

4.1 Unlawful Termination of Tenancies
.
.
Please be aware that carrying out an illegal eviction can result in damages of up to €20,000 being awarded to the tenant. The RTB can seek an injunction from the high court to reinstate the tenant and will continue to prioritise these cases during the emergency period.

Slydice wrote: »

This looks to have been interpreted and brought over to the Residential Tenancies Board website now or maybe I missed it before now, I'm not sure:
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/covid-19-emergency-legislation-for-rental-sector

Again key point for landlords:

Carrying out an illegal eviction, which includes prohibiting access to the property or making the property uninhabitable by disconnecting services, can result in damages of up to €20,000 being awarded to the tenant. The RTB can seek an injunction from the Courts to reinstate the tenant and will continue to prioritise these cases during the emergency period.

Rent a Room & 'Digs' Accommodation included in legislation
The emergency legislation states that all proposed evictions are prohibited, including Rent-a-Room and Digs-style accommodation. Property owners and anyone renting in such circumstances are asked to show forbearance and support for each other during the emergency period and, where possible, have regard to the precautions necessary to tackle COVID-19, to avoid ending accommodation arrangements.

24-04-2020 9:11pm

Boot her out, not your concern where she goes just make sure it’s not your house.

Slydice wrote: »

You might be risking having to give her €20,000 and having to take her back into your digs if you kick her out.

From previous posts:

All nonsense, it’s been explained over and over that the only licensees are those this applies to are students in purpose built student accommodation.

Absolutely no way does it apply to people who have “guests” in their home.

Big Bag of Chips · 24-04-2020 9:25pm

It’s getting bad but think we will live with it until restrictions are lifted somewhat so she can view other places

You're doing her a favour (a huge massive, massive, massive favour) and she is royally taking the piss. The cynical side of me thinks your "friend" knew exactly what she was like and saw you as the soft touch that you are.

Tell her, don't ask, tell her to leave your home now. It's not working out and she's not in college at the moment. Call her cousin and tell them to come and get her, or to contact her parents and get them to collect her.

punisher5112 · 24-04-2020 9:30pm

Out on the kerb..... Bye

drunkmonkey · 24-04-2020 9:39pm

Slydice wrote: »

You might be risking having to give her €20,000 and having to take her back into your digs if you kick her out.

From previous posts:

She'd want to prove she was at a loss of 20k to get 20k, being sent home to mammy in a pandemic wouldn't warrent much compo, all they have to say is she was coughing in her room and frightening the children. She'll get sweet fa, she won't sue anyway as she's a friend of the cousins.

never_mind · 24-04-2020 10:25pm

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

You're doing her a favour (a huge massive, massive, massive favour) and she is royally taking the piss. The cynical side of me thinks your "friend" knew exactly what she was like and saw you as the soft touch that you are.

Tell her, don't ask, tell her to leave your home now. It's not working out and she's not in college at the moment. Call her cousin and tell them to come and get her, or to contact her parents and get them to collect her.

Tbf I’ll always follow your advice! PI master and all that.

never_mind · 24-04-2020 10:25pm

Slydice wrote: »

You might be risking having to give her €20,000 and having to take her back into your digs if you kick her out.

From previous posts:

Thanks for this!!

Blondie919 · 24-04-2020 10:31pm

never_mind wrote: »

Hi everyone

We have a student in ‘digs’ with us. She is a friend’s cousin and we were helping her out for college accommodation. With covid we expected her to head home but she decided to stay. Her attitude has been fairly rotten since then including drinking a lot, being very dirty, not helping around house, and smoking in her room. We’ve done everything to try and sort these issues out with her but i think we have to give her the heave ho soon.

As covid seems to be here for the long term I wonder how and when I should broach then topic with her. She is a licensee I guess but our mental health is suffering with her. We were going to give her the summer and tell her she would have to head home by early August. Nothing has been decided and I just wanted to see what you all thought first.

You see these 3 words in Bold? She is a breeding ground for Covid-19. Get her out of your house now! Don't wait for this virus to pass. That will be ages from now. Do not put up with any more of her.

Del Boy · 24-04-2020 10:39pm

never_mind wrote: »

Hi everyone

We have a student in ‘digs’ with us. She is a friend’s cousin and we were helping her out for college accommodation. With covid we expected her to head home but she decided to stay. Her attitude has been fairly rotten since then including drinking a lot, being very dirty, not helping around house, and smoking in her room. We’ve done everything to try and sort these issues out with her but i think we have to give her the heave ho soon.

As covid seems to be here for the long term I wonder how and when I should broach then topic with her. She is a licensee I guess but our mental health is suffering with her. We were going to give her the summer and tell her she would have to head home by early August. Nothing has been decided and I just wanted to see what you all thought first.

Updated legislation means you can't kick her out.

I would start coughing and sweating lots around her. 😷

Caranica · 24-04-2020 10:41pm

Del Boy wrote: »

Updated legislation means you can't kick her out.

I would start coughing and sweating lots around her. &#55357;&#56887;

No it doesn't! See the information already posted above.

Baseball72 · 24-04-2020 10:43pm

never_mind wrote: »

I know under normal circumstances She’d be gone but I’m just worried that we’d some how get in trouble if we did kick her out. That she might take a case against us etc. Hmmm

NOT YOUR PROBLEM!

She needs to go - tomorrow!

Del Boy · 24-04-2020 10:51pm

Caranica wrote: »

No it doesn't! See the information already posted above.

RTB website..... Emergency Legislation

"Rent a Room & 'Digs' Accommodation included in legislation

The emergency legislation states that all proposed evictions are prohibited, including Rent-a-Room and Digs-style accommodation. Property owners and anyone renting in such circumstances are asked to show forbearance and support for each other during the emergency period and, where possible, have regard to the precautions necessary to tackle COVID-19, to avoid ending accommodation arrangements"

24-04-2020 11:05pm

Can anyone show / post a link to the updated legislation that includes rent-a-room?

It's not mentioned in the original act but it's mentioned in rtb, citizens info, etc sites

Caranica · 24-04-2020 11:05pm

Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government Guidance on Covid-19. Licensors and Licensees are in relation to student accommodation only.

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/guidance_document_support_for_landlords_and_tenants.pdf

The RTB has no role in this as it's not a tenancy situation.

MadDog76 · 24-04-2020 11:06pm

In the current climate you definitely cannot remove an individual from your home to travel any distance to reside in an alternative household........ it's simply forbidden with no wiggle room whatsoever, end of....... one phone call to the Gardai and you'll be forced to keep her under threat of arrest for violating the current restrictions.
I'm not guessing here, I'm telling you as a matter of fact.

When the situation changes, and you have the opportunity, then remove her immediately...... but until then you're stuck with her unfortunately.

Best of luck!

Caranica · 24-04-2020 11:09pm

MadDog76 wrote: »

In the current climate you definitely cannot remove an individual from your home to travel any distance to reside in an alternative household........ it's simply forbidden with no wiggle room whatsoever, end of....... one phone call to the Gardai and you'll be forced to keep her under threat of arrest for violating the current restrictions.
I'm not guessing here, I'm telling you as a matter of fact.

When the situation changes, and you have the opportunity, then remove her immediately...... but until then you're stuck with her unfortunately.

Best of luck!

Not at all true. There's been several threads on this matter in recent weeks, in one of the cases the Gardai witnessed the serving of notice to quit. Nobody is obliged to allow a guest, paying or otherwise, remain in their household, particularly when they pose a health risk to other residents.

Blondie919 · 24-04-2020 11:09pm

MadDog76 wrote: »

In the current climate you definitely cannot remove an individual from your home to travel any distance to reside in an alternative household........ it's simply forbidden with no wiggle room whatsoever, end of....... one phone call to the Gardai and you'll be forced to keep her under threat of arrest for violating the current restrictions.
I'm not guessing here, I'm telling you as a matter of fact.

When the situation changes, and you have the opportunity, then remove her immediately...... but until then you're stuck with her unfortunately.

Best of luck!

That sucks! Seriously.

Del Boy · 24-04-2020 11:14pm

Caranica wrote: »

Not at all true. There's been several threads on this matter in recent weeks, in one of the cases the Gardai witnessed the serving of notice to quit. Nobody is obliged to allow a guest, paying or otherwise, remain in their household, particularly when they pose a health risk to other residents.

Recent weeks are irrelevant. The legisation changed recently. So NOW you can't kick anyone out.

MadDog76 · 24-04-2020 11:18pm

Caranica wrote: »

Not at all true. There's been several threads on this matter in recent weeks, in one of the cases the Gardai witnessed the serving of notice to quit. Nobody is obliged to allow a guest, paying or otherwise, remain in their household, particularly when they pose a health risk to other residents.

It's absolutely 100% true.

The assumption is that she (the "guest") and/or any other member of the household she currently resides in may be unknowingly positive with Covid19 therefore moving her on (ie. further spreading the virus) is simply forbidden....... the risks with forcing her out supercede any other legalities during the present crisis.

As I said, I'm not guessing here.........

Mrs OBumble · 24-04-2020 11:22pm

Brysen Echoing Ladyfinger wrote: »

Boot her out, not your concern where she goes just make sure it’s not your house.

All nonsense, it’s been explained over and over that the only licensees are those this applies to are students in purpose built student accommodation.

Absolutely no way does it apply to people who have “guests” in their home.

This is not a guest.

Its a student in "digs" - that means the kid is paying.

Time · 24-04-2020 11:23pm

Slydice wrote: »

You might be risking having to give her €20,000 and having to take her back into your digs if you kick her out.

From previous posts:

There is so much bad advice in this thread its ridiculous, and not to pick on you but that post is the worst example of it.

Firstly the Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2020 states in section 5(7) that “all proposed evictions in all tenancies in the State, including those not covered by the Act of 2004, are prohibited during the operation of the Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Covid-19) Act 2020.”

Under section 5 of the principle 2004 act a tenant is defined as “the person for the time being entitled to the occupation of a dwelling under a tenancy..” The definition of a dwelling under section 4 of the principle act is stated as being .. a property let for rent or valuable consideration as a self-contained residential unit and includes any building or part of a building used as a dwelling and any out office, yard, garden or other land appurtenant to it or usually enjoyed with it”.

A room in a house is not a self contained residential unit and, it is clear from these definitions that licensee arrangements are not considered to fall under the scope of the term tenant or tenancy as defined in the principle act. There is vast swathes of case law that support this.

Secondly, the 2020 act (including its incorporation of section 37 of the Residential Tenancies Amendment Act 201, which only covers licensees in purpose built student accommodation) in no way amends the scope of the definitions above to incorporate licensees into the meaning of a tenant under the principle 2004 act, nor does it create a new definition for the purposes of interpretation under the 2020 act. As such it is impossible to see how any construction of the three aforementioned acts combined could result in the conclusion that arrangements which involve the owner also living in the premises are covered by the new measures.

The information on the RTB website is factually incorrect and i've personally complained to them about it, and asked that they remove it.

TheChizler · 24-04-2020 11:25pm

MadDog76 wrote: »

It's absolutely 100% true.

...

As I said, I'm not guessing here.........

Any link to that legislation?

splinter65 · 24-04-2020 11:27pm

never_mind wrote: »

I know under normal circumstances She’d be gone but I’m just worried that we’d some how get in trouble if we did kick her out. That she might take a case against us etc. Hmmm

All you have to do is a tiny little bit of research for yourself and you’d know that she can’t “take a case against us”.
She’s a guest in your house, that’s it.
You let her in, you let her treat you like ****, you don’t want a confrontation by telling her to leave so she’ll have to stay because no one else is going to do it for you.
What kind of advice are you looking for exactly?

shenanagans · 24-04-2020 11:27pm

New Emergency Legislation:
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/covid-19-emergency-legislation-for-rental-sector

Quote:
"The emergency legislation states that all proposed evictions are prohibited, including Rent-a-Room and Digs-style accommodation."

Poster stating this girl is in digs in their house.

splinter65 · 24-04-2020 11:29pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

This is not a guest.

Its a student in "digs" - that means the kid is paying.

She’s a paying guest. That’s it. If you can give us a link to evidence that she has any rights then I’d love to read it.

Time · 24-04-2020 11:31pm

Del Boy wrote: »

Recent weeks are irrelevant. The legisation changed yesterday. So NOW you can't kick anyone out.

Stop posting BS, there was no new legislation passed yesterday. Here's todays Oifiguil as proof.

MadDog76 · 24-04-2020 11:32pm

At present, nobody is allowed to have a "guest" in their home........ she lives there and will continue to live there until the risk of her moving has been drastically reduced, whether she's paying rent or not, therefore she can't be removed. That's the long and the short of it.

24-04-2020 11:32pm

shenanagans wrote: »

New Emergency Legislation:
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/covid-19-emergency-legislation-for-rental-sector

Quote:
"The emergency legislation states that all proposed evictions are prohibited, including Rent-a-Room and Digs-style accommodation."

Poster stating this girl is in digs in their house.

The emergency legislation applies to all tenancies which fall under the Residential Tenancies Act, this includes Approved Housing Bodies, Student Specific and Private Rented Accommodation. The emergency legislation also applies to Rent-a-Room and Digs-style accommodation.

And the very first line states ,
Put her out on her ear

Time · 24-04-2020 11:32pm

shenanagans wrote: »

New Emergency Legislation:
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/covid-19-emergency-legislation-for-rental-sector

Quote:
"The emergency legislation states that all proposed evictions are prohibited, including Rent-a-Room and Digs-style accommodation."

Poster stating this girl is in digs in their house.

Thats not what the legislation says at all though. I posted the exact text of it above

tayto lover · 24-04-2020 11:33pm

MadDog76 wrote: »

At present, nobody is allowed to have a "guest" in their home........ she lives there, whether she's paying rent or not, therefore she can't be removed. That's the long and the short of it.

I’d move her.

Time · 24-04-2020 11:33pm

MadDog76 wrote: »

At present, nobody is allowed to have a "guest" in their home........ she lives there, whether she's paying rent or not, therefore she can't be removed. That's the long and the short of it.

No it's not, have you actually read the legislation? I posted the exact text of it above. it says absolutely nothing of the sort.

Caranica · 24-04-2020 11:35pm

Del Boy wrote: »

Recent weeks are irrelevant. The legisation changed yesterday. So NOW you can't kick anyone out.

No it didn't. No legislation can be passed without a fully constituted Seanad. We won't have one of those until a government is formed and the then Taoiseach appoints the final 11 members.

MadDog76 · 24-04-2020 11:39pm

Time wrote: »

No it's not, have you actually read the legislation? I posted the exact text of it above. it says absolutely nothing of the sort.

You're wrong.

Time · 24-04-2020 11:39pm

shenanagans wrote: »

With effect from Friday, 27 March 2020, new emergency measures were introduced into law to protect tenants during the COVID-19 emergency period.

Date wrong. Content right.

Well thats not what was said, its simply not true that more legislation was introduced yesterday. I posted the exact text from the Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2020. If you read it you'll see that the only people covered are tenants and licensees in purpose built student accommodation.

Time · 24-04-2020 11:41pm

MadDog76 wrote: »

You're wrong.

Great analysis of the legislative text there. Care to explain what part of section incorporates licensees outside of those under the 2019 act i.e students in purpose built accommodation?

Del Boy · 24-04-2020 11:41pm

Caranica wrote: »

No it didn't. No legislation can be passed without a fully constituted Seanad. We won't have one of those until a government is formed and the then Taoiseach appoints the final 11 members.

The RTB website is wrong so. Legislation was introduced on 27th March.....before seanad elections.

MadDog76 · 24-04-2020 11:42pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I’d move her.

Physically, you could....... but you'd then run the risk of severe consequences....... and she'd be placed back into your home regardless.

The opportunity to remove her has passed......

Caranica · 24-04-2020 11:44pm

Del Boy wrote: »

The RTB website is wrong so. Legislation was introduced on 27th March.....before seanad elections.

You said it changed yesterday, ie 23 April. The other cases on this forum are entirely relevant as they occurred since the legislation was brought in last month.

Time · 24-04-2020 11:44pm

MadDog76 wrote: »

Physically, you could....... but you'd then run the risk of severe consequences....... and she'd be placed back into your home regardless.

The opportunity to remove her has passed......

This is the worst advice i've ever seen given on this site, and thats saying something.

Can I kick her out?

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