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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker **Spoilers from post 2076**

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    #2192
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,765 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Saw this earlier and as so many have said, it's a disjointed mess... so, here's some of my own disjointed thoughts as I think about the 2.5 hours I spent watching this :D

    - The first 5 minutes or so make you feel like you've missed a movie in between (a feeling that continues throughout the film). In fact, the opening scene could easily have been the end of the last film and would have been a far better setup

    - Finn is still shouty and annoying at the start, but then seems to undergo a personality shift halfway through into a more believable character.. It's almost like there was some sort of shift behind the scenes.. :p

    - Poe isn't much better (and it looks like we could have a "Dune" tie-in next with him being a former Spice runner :rolleyes:).

    - Rey is still overpowered to the point of ridiculousness and I don't buy the retconning that it's because she's Palpatine's grand-daughter! (Since when did he have a family?).

    - The early scenes with the 3 of them together is like some sort of bad fan film with poor actors, ill-judged jokes and props from the series/movie for the nostalgia (ie: the opposite of say Star Trek Continues which was actually good enough to be a genuine Season 4 of the original series IMO)

    - Kylo/Ben at least moves past his angry emo teen stage and is a very different character. Leia's/Carrie Fisher's death is handled very well in fairness, but I'm not sure if I believe it (and the Han cameo) was enough to turn him back
    This is one of the biggest issues as above. There's so much retconning of the previous film that it trips over itself half the time. Ditto the "Holdo Maneuver" comment

    - His and Rey's galactic force chats are still stupid - even more so that they can now proactively transfer stuff to each other.

    - The film rushes from plot point to plot point so fast that you often haven't time to take in what you just saw! On top of that it throws in random time skips (Falcon coming in with damaged landing gear.... cut to smouldering Falcon at the end of a long landing trench in the ground and the crew walking away from it... errr, what? :confused:)

    - Last movie we had a pointless side quest to casino world to cover the galaxy's slowest car chase. This time it's a scavenger hunt

    - The whole "Sith Rey" thing from the trailers basically just being a rehash of the Tree scene from ESB was a cop out. The ridiculousness of them all having a fire fight on the hull of an ascending Star Destroyer was just nonsense (all the Imperials had to do was just bank the ship and watch them slide off!)

    - Palpatine coming back was another obviously late change that landed badly but then, they killed off Snoke in the last one I suppose. Once again though Rey is DA BEST EVAR and saves the day ridiculously easily after a force-pep talk from Jedi ghosts, despite being almost killed moments earlier.

    I could go on, but what's the point? It wasn't as bad as Last Jedi but as the ending to the trilogy and Skywalker Saga overall it was awful. The main characters are still little more than one-dimensional cut-outs, we don't care about or feel invested in any of them, and they shoe-horn as much nostalgia and bland action as possible and at such a rapid pace to try and cover the huge cracks - and by doing so they make it worse! They could have stretched the plot of this one out over 2/3 movies by itself and it would have been far better for it.


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    #2193
    BMMachine
    Site Banned Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭BMMachine


    Hi this is a sh1t film from a series that was at its best from before I was born and yeah, The Force Awakens was fun, but if you are attaching this film and the others to your identity then you may want to rethink what quality and standards actually are. You might just end up liking sh1t things and pretending they are good because you think its too pathetic to like bullcrap

    Oh and if you want better scifi to attach yourself to, try:
    Hyperion Cantos
    Dune (first book)
    Culture series
    Ancillary Justice
    Illium
    Foundation
    Arthur C. Clark
    Michael Crichton
    Children of Time


    basically there is FAR FAR FAR better **** out there that didnt get a billion dollars and a generations worth of SOCIAL JUSTICE hard on's (oh I added that social justice bit to see if you would call me a nazi or something. And im saying it to see who still does)


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    #2194
    BMMachine
    Site Banned Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭BMMachine


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Saw this earlier and as so many have said, it's a disjointed mess... so, here's some of my own disjointed thoughts as I think about the 2.5 hours I spent watching this :D

    - The first 5 minutes or so make you feel like you've missed a movie in between (a feeling that continues throughout the film). In fact, the opening scene could easily have been the end of the last film and would have been a far better setup

    - Finn is still shouty and annoying at the start, but then seems to undergo a personality shift halfway through into a more believable character.. It's almost like there was some sort of shift behind the scenes.. :p

    - Poe isn't much better (and it looks like we could have a "Dune" tie-in next with him being a former Spice runner :rolleyes:).

    - Rey is still overpowered to the point of ridiculousness and I don't buy the retconning that it's because she's Palpatine's grand-daughter! (Since when did he have a family?).

    - The early scenes with the 3 of them together is like some sort of bad fan film with poor actors, ill-judged jokes and props from the series/movie for the nostalgia (ie: the opposite of say Star Trek Continues which was actually good enough to be a genuine Season 4 of the original series IMO)

    - Kylo/Ben at least moves past his angry emo teen stage and is a very different character. Leia's/Carrie Fisher's death is handled very well in fairness, but I'm not sure if I believe it (and the Han cameo) was enough to turn him back
    This is one of the biggest issues as above. There's so much retconning of the previous film that it trips over itself half the time. Ditto the "Holdo Maneuver" comment

    - His and Rey's galactic force chats are still stupid - even more so that they can now proactively transfer stuff to each other.

    - The film rushes from plot point to plot point so fast that you often haven't time to take in what you just saw! On top of that it throws in random time skips (Falcon coming in with damaged landing gear.... cut to smouldering Falcon at the end of a long landing trench in the ground and the crew walking away from it... errr, what? :confused:)

    - Last movie we had a pointless side quest to casino world to cover the galaxy's slowest car chase. This time it's a scavenger hunt

    - The whole "Sith Rey" thing from the trailers basically just being a rehash of the Tree scene from ESB was a cop out. The ridiculousness of them all having a fire fight on the hull of an ascending Star Destroyer was just nonsense (all the Imperials had to do was just bank the ship and watch them slide off!)

    - Palpatine coming back was another obviously late change that landed badly but then, they killed off Snoke in the last one I suppose. Once again though Rey is DA BEST EVAR and saves the day ridiculously easily after a force-pep talk from Jedi ghosts, despite being almost killed moments earlier.

    I could go on, but what's the point? It wasn't as bad as Last Jedi but as the ending to the trilogy and Skywalker Saga overall it was awful. The main characters are still little more than one-dimensional cut-outs, we don't care about or feel invested in any of them, and they shoe-horn as much nostalgia and bland action as possible and at such a rapid pace to try and cover the huge cracks - and by doing so they make it worse! They could have stretched the plot of this one out over 2/3 movies by itself and it would have been far better for it.

    HUGE STUFF
    pity its subpar scifi with poor foundations.

    here, try reading Hyperion. Id love to see you with us at the Church of Final Atonement :) no joke, be better


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    #2195
    BMMachine
    Site Banned Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭BMMachine


    Guys I think Racism might be over because Star Wars and Marvel films addressed those issues. Here because i've saracastically approached the subject Im alt-right and a nazi so would have no value. But like isn't a message from the original movies about being one with yourself and about honesty and an ability to see through your faults and weaknesses, acknowledge them, and work to make yourself better?

    Nah its easier to tell people that if they didnt like a **** film that they are nazis. OH DID BORIS JOHNSON THAT LYING TOAD WIN AN UNPRECEDENTED NUMBER OF SEATS IN BRITAIN? nah just keep going. Keep calling people nazis and thick because they think something like The Last Jedi was ****. AND FOCUS ON THAT. DONT THINK ABOUT WHAT IM REALLY SAYING. NARROW DOWN ON THAT. if you narrow things down to your view you can believe anything. You can believe you are actually brilliant. Sure, convincing yourself you aren't **** at something is one of boards.ie's founding principals - look at DeVore and how much he sucks d1ck at quake! like I do honestly believe hes a great guy and huge innovator........ but theres always something left over in our digital selves. ****, i know damn sure I have!


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    #2196
    dwayneshintzy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


    Go to bed, m8


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    #2197
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,587 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    johnny_ultimate wrote: »
    I can’t help but feel there’s a fascinating production story to tell here, from Treverrow’s* contributions to Abrams’ plethora of odd story and filmmaking decisions. The film is so full of strange loose ends and half-excised subplots we can only imagine how dramatically this was remixed and changed over the course of production and post-production. It barely holds together. I thought the underwhelming Rogue One definitely came across as a film dramatically changed from its original vision (like the redundant Darth Vader appendages) and we all know the Solo drama... but this thing is a different beast altogether.

    * Given how this ended up, I genuinely find myself questioning whether Trevorrow would have done a better job - and I’m someone who thinks Safety Not Guaranteed was a random fluke compared to the ****e he’s put out since

    Disney/Lucasfilm are the text book definition of studio interference. Cant help but feel that even JJ was on a leash.


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    #2198
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users Posts: 15,405 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Went with 2 little ones yesterday

    8 yr old nephew seemed to like it but he said he found it overly complicated

    I found it VERY average. I’m a casual Star Wars fan. It was Far from the quality of the original trilogy

    The main characters are very bland.

    The emperor story line was silly. What was that stadium full of supporters in his lair about and why didn’t they attack Rey etc?


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    #2199
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    What was with everyone in the film calling him Palpatine? They younger characters would have never know him as Palpatine, particularly after decade's of an authoritarian regime. It's the Emperor or Sidious


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    #2200
    Sad Professor
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,671 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    More on the weird editing and possible changes:

    It may be wishful thinking on the part of Reylo fans but many are claiming that the shot of Ben falling down dead at the end is reversed and it was actually shot as Rey pulling him up (which appears to be correct). This has led to speculation that Ben originally survived, possibly with Leia bringing him back to life before joining the Force. It might explain why we never see Rey grieving Ben and why Leia joins the Force so long after dying.


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    #2201
    Mr E
    Registered Users Posts: 55,474 ✭✭✭✭Mr E


    Finally saw it today (and I went in spoiler free). Some surprisingly emotional bits in it and I was never bored, and I was kept guessing. It was never obvious how things would pan out. The early fake out did a great job of putting you on the edge. It did a great job of bringing everything full circle too.

    Absolutely loved it, and reviews are more wrong than they've been in a long time. Star Wars nerds are the worst.

    Going to see it again with the girlfriend at the weekend.


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    #2202
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,851 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Saw it yesterday with one of the kids. It's enjoyable in a whizz-bang kind of way, the kid loved it (but he doesn't remember anything about the previous 2 movies despite having seen them in the cinema with me).

    It seemed to have been written like a primary-school essay: and then, and then, and then, and what if stormtroopers could fly!

    Bringing back Palpatine on his secret planet and
    making Rey his grand-daughter (had Palpatine Jr. ever been mentioned before?)
    just felt like a con, and pissed on the legacy of the original films.


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    #2203
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I couldn't get past some of the plot devices that revised history and canon, like the substantially intact wreckage of Death Star 2 in the Endorian ocean that I clearly saw vapourised in 1983. Yes it was emotional and all that but it hurried through some important moments like Ben's conversion and the Emperor's reintroduction (and don't get me started on General Hux). I felt like there was a lot of 'it's that way just cos, now shut up and accept it, we're moving on'

    The lack of Lucas involvement in these final 3 showed in the flimsiness. Yes I enjoyed 'Rise' in IMAX 3D as a great spectacle, but not as a Star Wars classic.


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    #2204
    Mr E
    Registered Users Posts: 55,474 ✭✭✭✭Mr E


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    The lack of Lucas involvement in these final 3 showed in the flimsiness.

    Counterpoint - Episodes 1, 2 and 3.

    If he was involved, then the audience in Palpatines chamber would have had a big discussion about the merits of Jedi vs. Sith and midichlorians something something.


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    #2205
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Mr E wrote: »
    Counterpoint - Episodes 1, 2 and 3.

    On the contrary, I didn't think the plots of 1 through 3 were flimsy, they were quite dense and could be accused of being ponderous, but the problems to be found in that trilogy were almost the opposite of 7 to 9.


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    #2206
    Mr E
    Registered Users Posts: 55,474 ✭✭✭✭Mr E


    But they were part of the weakest trilogy. They were worse movies by a long way.


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    #2207
    D3V!L
    Registered Users Posts: 2,929 ✭✭✭D3V!L


    I went to see this in the Odeon Point Village last night. Actually thought it was quite enjoyable and not even close to being as bad as people were making out. I would have enjoyed it more if the staff would turn off the lights in the screen. They point blank refused leaving everyone one to watch it in a washed out state.


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    #2208
    Homelander
    Registered Users Posts: 4,379 ✭✭✭Homelander


    Mr E wrote: »
    But they were part of the weakest trilogy. They were worse movies by a long way.

    Worse movies objectively, but I don't think they are worse 'Star Wars' movies as this trilogy has been a hot-cake tossed from hand to hand with no single vision or guiding oversight in place and it shows badly.

    As the previous guy said they are both badly flawed but in completely contrasting ways. The overall vision and world building is much better in the prequel trilogy, but the direction, dialogue and acting is generally atrocious. The new trilogy is perfectly good on the latter points but as per my first point, a mess on the former.


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    #2209
    micks_address
    Registered Users Posts: 8,520 ✭✭✭micks_address


    Finally seen today. Had seen a spoiler re rey buy that didn't ruin it for me. It felt far more tonely consistent with awakens. For me last jedi brought the series nowhere. It was fine like but in no way built on awakens.

    I thought Rise was better than I expected with the various review headlines I'd seen. I'm not sure where people expected it to go. It did feel like it was running out of steam for sure.

    I do think the trilogy was a wasted opportunity. Awakens was such a strong setup.


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    #2210
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    Best film of the trilogy I think. Certainly a lot better than episode 8.
    It was exactly what I expected from a Star Wars movie.


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    #2211
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Can we agree this is the quality chart of the films, in descending order?

    5,6,4,7,9,3,8,1,2.

    Makes 'Rise' exactly average IMO.


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    #2212
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,934 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I saw this last night. It's been a long time since I saw anything so abysmal even having adjusting expectations based on Episode VIII.

    From the opening of Episode VII, it was clear that this wasn't a trilogy that was ever intended to do anything new. However, I didn't think that they'd actually stoop so low as to just replicate the ending of Episode VI.

    Lazy and tedious are the terms that spring to mind when I think of this trilogy. The prequels at least had a few decent characters and sequences but this... I think Rey and Ben are decent characters but the former is ruined by being a Mary Sue while the latter just follows Darth Vader's arc with little deviation.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #2213
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,851 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Did Lucas write an outline for this trilogy that wasn't used? As mentioned above the prequels, for their many faults, had a narrative consistency mostly missing from the recent films.


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    #2214
    seandotcomm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭seandotcomm


    He did, yes.


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    #2215
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,079 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    And it was pants.


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    #2216
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens
    Tony EH wrote: »
    And it was pants.

    We don't have it?


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    #2217
    Liam O
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    I was talking to people tonight who'd just seen it and it really drove home that as an experience, in the moment, this was really enjoyable. Once you put it in any level of a critical eye with regards character consistency or depth it falls short.

    The best thing, not just in this but over the whole trilogy, was obviously Rey and Kylo's relationship but instead of having them realise that there should be no light and dark side of the force but a balance, the good guys just win and you are left with a character identifying as (ironically) the last jedi. Johnson gave them a chance of exploring that in the last film but this one just turned out the literal exact same way as Return of the Jedi.

    Why can't Palpatine come back again? Who was on all those Star destroyers? Why was Palpatine's son not force sensitive? Or was he? I mean there's too much left hanging. These are just the things that jump out right now but there's so many things that were teased in TFA and maybe not developed in TLJ but certainly left open and not developed.


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    #2218
    cdgalwegian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,917 ✭✭✭cdgalwegian


    I enjoyed the epic journey overall, but not being a fan per se, the final chapter has only now got me interested in the politics of production:
    The Skywalker saga continues after ROTJ in The Force Awakens. Where this title might evoke the notion that the force might be re-awoken in Luke, he is absent from the whole rejuvenated story. It’s actually awoken in Rey (who has an unknown genealogy at this point), the narrative baton being passed on, along with Kylo Ren, who we learn is Leia's son. With The Last Jedi, Luke is assumed to be this last jedi, but it turns out that he is not in fact the last jedi; Leia is - strongly hinted at with the 'Leia Poppins' space flight, and expanded in Rise of Skywalker (where both Johnson and Abrams bring the mystery of “the Force is strong in my family” in ROTJ- not explored in the Force Awakens- to an eye-brow furrowed close, obviously hamperd by her real-life death before RoS).
    The narrative strand of jedi/sith ‘balance of force’ issue is carried through the Rey/Ren storyline, where in Rise of Skywalker Abrams pulls a fast-one and reintroduces the Palpatine element in order to give the Rey/Ren storyline a Palpatine/Skywalker genealogy switcheroo in terms of good/bad, jedi/sith narrative. Narratively, this was quite clever, but the world and his dog knows that RoS was a two fingers to Johnson’s wrecking of Abrams’ Snoke character as the new baddy, and a nostalgia fest to appease the internet rage of Star Wars fans. Johnson’s idea to jettison the genealogy idea in Rey- combined with the stable-boy powers in the last scene of the Last Jedi- was dumped as part of the Johnson cull in RoS. To add salt to the wound, Johnson’s blossoming Rose/Finn relationship came to a thudding halt, replaced at the very end by the Finn/Rey/Poe menage-a-trois (presumably again due to the pressure of the SW internet rage of it being overly woke-sensitive).
     Luke had to die in the middle section of the concluding trilogy, and Leia in the RoS, as the means to pass the baton on, leaving the Rey/Ren combo to bring the epic saga to a close. But then Abrams has a problem. When Leia dies, along with Ren, all the Skywalkers are dead, and Abrams has reverted to the genealogy mechanism of Force sensitivity. Rey is (in Abrams’ clunky manner) a Palpatine, so how come the Skywalker in the RoS title? His solution is ingenious; a symbolic burying of the Skywalker legacy, so that the new Skywalker-in-spirit arises. Rey’s new lightsabre is symbolic of the new balance brought to the Force through her, though she is a Palpatine, and not a Skywalker, but that's irrelevant because - as taught by Luke - the Jedi are also not balanced in the Force (and hence Rey is not the Last Jedi, but possibly the founder of a new balanced religion). It's a shoe-horned last scene for nostalgia and a workaround for a title, that barely makes sense.


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    #2219
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,142 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    How the hell did Ben get from the ruins of the Death Star at Endor to Exegol? Looked like he arrived in an old tie fighter that he presumably took from the ruins of the Death Star. It has been previously established that these had no hyperdrives and were very much short range fighters.

    Also Lando rounding up thousands of ships in the space of a few hours to fight the final battle felt really cheap.


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    #2220
    homerun_homer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭homerun_homer


    Total flop and a financial loss for Disney
    I re-watched this the other day. It did not improve on a second watch. I just can't get excited about any single part of this movie. I thought maybe it was being tired and having too much of a critical hat on me when watching the midnight screening when it came out but no.

    I didn't pick up on this as much the first time but why on Earth would a writer set the film up with a 16 hour deadline until Palpatine attacks? Regardless of all other complaints, the amount that happens in this movie is ludicrous to think it happens within this time span.


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    #2221
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Saw this yesterday and have to say that while it had its flaws it was probably as good as it could have been. The series was left in ruins after TLJ with no possible consistent or cohesive story spanning the 3 films. So ROS had to try and generate that all in a single film. It was far too big an ask. Ultimately TFA was a well made copy and paste of ANH, which would have been good enough of the follow up built on it in the right ways. Instead the follow up dismantled most of what TFA created and replaced it with nothing. There was no way ROS could have delivered really.

    The take on TLJ that Johnson had asked interesting questions that could have been built on holds no water with me. He did ask those questions, but themn proceeded to revert to standard goodies vs baddies to close out the film. He left the series with next to nothing to work with.

    There was a tonne of fan service in the film which I saw a lot of people complain about but I have to say it didnt bother me. Would have liked to see Wedge get a bit more screen time, even just blowing up a few more Ties. The story did feel very rushed, but it had to given it had so much work to do to generate enough of a story to tie all 3 films together plus close everything out as well. Some elements were terrible. Palpatines EMP force lightning trick was completely unnecessary and totally over the top. The life force thing was simply bizarre, but I suppose served a purpose. Some elements like how Ben got off the Death Star didnt wash. And horses on a Star Destroyer can just FRO. But there were really good elements to. The connection Ben had with his parents, while rushed, was good. Numerous elements in the middle third of the film just felt very Star Wars. I also liked Richard E Grant's Pryde character. Finally an Imperial Officer who isnt an incompetent idiot. Rey battling with her identity and what that meant was done well (albeit also rushed). The more I think about it the more it felt like the last 2 seasons of GOT. A lot of good content, just needed another film to really pull it all together properly.

    Overall it's worth going to see in the cinema. Really well made, as you'd expect from Abrams. The look and feel matched TFA and I thought was really solid. It closes out the trilogy as best it can. It has serious flaws trying to do that, and a few flaws all of it's own making, but given the crap it had to work with it closed out the trilogy as well as could be expected.


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