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The Watch (Terry Pratchett) [BBC America]

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    #92
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Was it racist when Morgan Freeman was cast as Red in Shawshank Redemption? In the books, Red is white and Irish (hence his nickname being Red).

    Funny you should mention that. :D I just finished reading the book last week and I hadn't realised that the character of Red was white. The book is much darker than the film, no pun intended. Does it bother me that a black man played the role? Not in the slightest, I can't imagine anyone but Morgan Freeman playing the role. Then again, I can't imagine a 20 something year old white woman being cast to play the role of Morgan Freeman in a biography of his life.

    There is so much silly haste to signal virtue that people are willing to sacrifice things in order to be PC. The only race issue here is that a black 20 something year old was cast to play a white 40 something year old but some people are happy with that each to their own. So long as people want to keep on allowing this trash to happen we will keep being given crap. Standing up and pointing out that Lady Sybil is a middle aged overweight white woman is not racist it is simply pointing out the obvious.


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    #93
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    blueshade wrote: »

    There is so much silly haste to signal virtue that people are willing to sacrifice things in order to be PC. The only race issue here is that a black 20 something year old was cast to play a white 40 something year old but some people are happy with that each to their own. So long as people want to keep on allowing this trash to happen we will keep being given crap. Standing up and pointing out that Lady Sybil is a middle aged overweight white woman is not racist it is simply pointing out the obvious.

    The race issue here is that a black 20 something year old was cast to play a white 40 something year old and no-one here is happy with that.

    Please quote where Pratchett ever mentioned Sybil is white?


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    #94
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    The race issue here is that a black 20 something year old was cast to play a white 40 something year old and no-one here is happy with that.

    Please quote where Pratchett ever mentioned Sybil is white?

    Oh come on!!! That's a real stretch, I don't believe for a single second that any Pratchett fan ever imagined her as black. This is identity politics crossing into entertainment. A prime example is the new film Cats, Judi Dench is playing a cat that in the original is male and the main character is a mixed race ballerina who made a comment recently that she is a mixed race person in white face and said ''read into that what you will''.

    So she was given the role of a white cat and accepted it and is now bitching that she's playing a white character. Now what I've seen of the clips just looks downright creepy and weird so I won't watch it. Identity politics ultimately doesn't work. People want to shout racist but it isn't me making it about race, it's about the people behind it making a much loved character black when they aren't.

    This stuff has been going on since Will Smith missed out on an Oscar and his wife started shouting racism and discrimination and the following year black actors started getting awards. Then came #metoo and since then films that shouldn't even have been nominated for Oscars have been winning them. It's no different to when they decided to make an all female Ghostbusters or any other film that changed all the male characters to females to pander to this nonsense.


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    #95
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    blueshade wrote: »
    A prime example is the new film Cats, Judi Dench is playing a cat that in the original is male and the main character is a mixed race ballerina who made a comment recently that she is a mixed race person in white face and said ''read into that what you will''.

    Yes, because of all the things said about the Cats adaptation, THAT'S the biggest issue lol. Congrats on being the first person to bring "identity politics" to effin' Cats. Lol.

    Absolutely NOBODY here has said they liked this characterisation of Sybil. Nobody. Not here and not online elsewhere. You're the only one fixating on the race, when, as said, should be way down the list of things wrong with this interpretation. It's the least important thing about her character.


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    #96
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Mod edit - Please report posts instead of calling out individual posters


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    #97
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Yes, because of all the things said about the Cats adaptation, THAT'S the biggest issue lol. Congrats on being the first person to bring "identity politics" to effin' Cats. Lol.

    Absolutely NOBODY here has said they liked this characterisation of Sybil. Nobody. Not here and not online elsewhere. You're the only one fixating on the race, when, as said, should be way down the list of things wrong with this interpretation. It's the least important thing about her character.

    Eh no, I'm not the one fixating on race. We were discussing an adaptation of a Pratchett book and how the changes made to a beloved character bear very little if any resemblance to that character. The reason for those changes are purely to reflect identity politics and to appear to be diverse. There was clearly more concern about the cast appearing diverse than accurately reflecting the book, even the family have distanced themselves from this.

    Now I get that a lot of people trip over themselves to shout racist, so many people are in such a dreadful rush to take offence on behalf of others that they may almost do themselves an injury. My posts are not racist no matter how much you shout it. In fact that ridiculous shout of racism at anyone who disagrees with a point of view has made the word almost meaningless, well done. Again, I would point out that it was not me that made an issue of identity politics in Cats, it was the mixed race ballerina who was given the part of a white cat. My point was to highlight the absurdity of what entertainment has become. My only real gripe with Cats is the bizarre and creepy human/cat hybrids. :D, oh and James Cordon basically getting paid to play James Cordon.


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    #98
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    blueshade wrote: »
    Eh no, I'm not the one fixating on race.

    Sorry buddy, you literally are the only person here fixated on race. Namely the race of Sybil.

    Everyone here agrees the casting is poor, but mostly that they've changed the entire character of Sybil to the exact opposite of who she is.


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    #99
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    blueshade wrote: »
    Eh no, I'm not the one fixating on race. We were discussing an adaptation of a Pratchett book and how the changes made to a beloved character bear very little if any resemblance to that character. The reason for those changes are purely to reflect identity politics and to appear to be diverse. There was clearly more concern about the cast appearing diverse than accurately reflecting the book, even the family have distanced themselves from this.

    Now I get that a lot of people trip over themselves to shout racist, so many people are in such a dreadful rush to take offence on behalf of others that they may almost do themselves an injury. My posts are not racist no matter how much you shout it.

    Bzzzt. I never called you racist, nor would insinuate either so if you want to debate, don't pull up the victim complex or put words in my - or others' - mouth thanks. That's some bad-faith arguing right there.

    Once more: nobody likes this Lady Sybil, including me. Turning her into Batman is ludicrous. Her race doesn't bother me however, whereas it obviously discombobulates you - bringing it up as a key pillar of the problem - when it very clearly isn't against the larger issues.

    But I think this debate is done if you're going to start raising the hackles, and accusing everyone of being polemics.


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    #100
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    blueshade wrote: »
    Funny you should mention that. :D I just finished reading the book last week and I hadn't realised that the character of Red was white. The book is much darker than the film, no pun intended. Does it bother me that a black man played the role? Not in the slightest, I can't imagine anyone but Morgan Freeman playing the role. Then again, I can't imagine a 20 something year old white woman being cast to play the role of Morgan Freeman in a biography of his life.

    There is so much silly haste to signal virtue that people are willing to sacrifice things in order to be PC. The only race issue here is that a black 20 something year old was cast to play a white 40 something year old but some people are happy with that each to their own. So long as people want to keep on allowing this trash to happen we will keep being given crap. Standing up and pointing out that Lady Sybil is a middle aged overweight white woman is not racist it is simply pointing out the obvious.

    And Red was a white Irish guy with red hair in the Shawshank Redemption book. Why don't you have a problem with that, but you have a problem here with Sybil being black? It's almost as if changing the race of Red made no difference to the story or character, so there was nothing to be bothered about it.
    blueshade wrote: »
    Oh come on!!! That's a real stretch, I don't believe for a single second that any Pratchett fan ever imagined her as black.

    Why not? She was never described as white in the books and if you didn't buy the Paul Kidby Discworld art books then I don't think you would have never seen a drawing of her. People would presumably have imagined her as the same colour as themselves, which would lead me to guess that there would have been black readers who imagined her as black.

    I'm reminded of how when the Hunger Games movie first came out, a bunch of people complained how one of the kids was cast with a young black actress. The said, like you, that they never imagined her as black, and that was despite the book specifically describing her as black.

    People imagine characters according to their own experiences and expectations. Who, if anyone, do you think should be cast as black in the show?


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    #101
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    And Red was a white Irish guy with red hair in the Shawshank Redemption book. Why don't you have a problem with that, but you have a problem here with Sybil being black? It's almost as if changing the race of Red made no difference to the story or character, so there was nothing to be bothered about it.


    Why not? She was never described as white in the books and if you didn't buy the Paul Kidby Discworld art books then I don't think you would have never seen a drawing of her. People would presumably have imagined her as the same colour as themselves, which would lead me to guess that there would have been black readers who imagined her as black.

    I'm reminded of how when the Hunger Games movie first came out, a bunch of people complained how one of the kids was cast with a young black actress. The said, like you, that they never imagined her as black, and that was despite the book specifically describing her as black.

    People imagine characters according to their own experiences and expectations. Who, if anyone, do you think should be cast as black in the show?

    You are all so desperate to be woke it's hilarious. His own daughter distanced herself from the project describing it as an 'entirely different beast' to the one her father had discussed with the BBC. But hey, carry on, knock yourself out with the aul wokeness, don't worry that it destroyed the story. All that matters is that it's woke.:p


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    #102
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    blueshade wrote: »
    You are all so desperate to be woke it's hilarious. His own daughter distanced herself from the project describing it as an 'entirely different beast' to the one her father had discussed with the BBC. But hey, carry on, knock yourself out with the aul wokeness, don't worry that it destroyed the story. All that matters is that it's woke.:p

    Correct, she did. However she made no mention of the race issue being the sticking point, and has been said REPEATEDLY to you, NOBODY on this thread likes the CHARACTER changes to Sybil.

    So TBH, your wilful ignoring of this point has got tedious, trying to attack others as being "desperate to be woke" is not going to fly, and I daresay most reading this thread are sick of the entire back & forth anyway.


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    #103
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Correct, she did. However she made no mention of the race issue being the sticking point, and has been said REPEATEDLY to you, NOBODY on this thread likes the CHARACTER changes to Sybil.

    So TBH, your wilful ignoring of this point has got tedious, trying to attack others as being "desperate to be woke" is not going to fly, and I daresay most reading this thread are sick of the entire back & forth anyway.

    Oh well, pardon me, I thought this was a discussion thread not an echo chamber or circle jerk, my mistake.:D


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    #104
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    First few pictures have popped up, giving a chance to review the look of the thing anyway:

    http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2020/01/first-look-photos-bbc-americas-the-watch-starring-richard-dormer

    Lady Sybil setting someone on fire. Jesus.


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    #105
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    pixelburp wrote: »
    First few pictures have popped up, giving a chance to review the look of the thing anyway:

    http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2020/01/first-look-photos-bbc-americas-the-watch-starring-richard-dormer

    Lady Sybil setting someone on fire. Jesus.

    Well, at least Carrot looks like Carrot...

    ...that is Carrot isn't it?!?! It's not Knobby 're-imagined' :o


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    #106
    donegal_man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,721 ✭✭✭donegal_man


    Oh dearrrrr oh dearrrrr
    It's no guid I fearrrrr
    Yon big job lady wi the firrrre
    The whole things looking awfy dirrrre
    Pterry widna dae this
    tae is

    With apologies to William the Gonnagle


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    #107
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Why is Cheery not a Dwarf?


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    #108
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Lord knows. They've effed around the edges with everyone. Still fuming over lady Sybil; she's a completely different character. Really Hollywood approach of, "sure, we love Sybil, but the kids love batman. What if instead of a dumpy middle aged farmer she was a young, attractive crime fighter???"

    I can see why Rhianna posted her painfully diplomatic tweet that she wasn't involved. Don't usually get all spurned-fan on properties but this looks like an utter hot mess. Maybe, maybe the scripts are good but if the tone of Pratchett is missing too I won't be watching.

    And as we saw in this thread, legit criticism is going to be lost under the neckbeards cribbing about the casting, or the defence brigade dismissing criticism as bigots.

    Sigh.


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    #109
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    New photos have been released, and they are not good. It appears BBC America have chosen to completely disregard literally all the feedback and proceed with making a piece of hot garbage.


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    #110
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    January 2021 release date, if anyone's wondering; and the photo can be found on https://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2020/08/new-photo-bbc-americas-the-watch-starring-richard-dormer-and-lara-rossi

    The rewriting of Sybil into a vigilante remains disappointing. Nothing to add that I haven't already said, but it's truly sad how BBC America went and did exactly what Pratchett resisted his entire writing life; a superficial adaptation that excessively reworked his characters' key traits.


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    #111
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,283 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    From the picture I see Cheery Littlebottom appears to have grown substantially, and has a lot less facial hair than I expected her to have.


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    #112
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Zaph wrote: »
    From the picture I see Cheery Littlebottom appears to have grown substantially, and has a lot less facial hair than I expected her to have.

    Honestly I think the changes to Cheery is what's annoying me the most. The influence her character ends up playing, pretty much indirectly, is massive on Ankh Morpork and Dwarf society. She literally causes a massive shift in their own culture, instead they've gone with this non-binary approach, cast a male, removed the beard and added on a few feet in height.


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    #113
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Honestly I think the changes to Cheery is what's annoying me the most. The influence her character ends up playing, pretty much indirectly, is massive on Ankh Morpork and Dwarf society. She literally causes a massive shift in their own culture, instead they've gone with this non-binary approach, cast a male, removed the beard and added on a few feet in height.

    Wait...that's Cheery?!?
    I was wondering what an elf was doing there but it hadn't occurred to me that is supposed to be Cheery.

    Making Sybil young is the thing that annoys me the most.


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    #114
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Making her young also makes the romance more skuzzy than it should be. Which is weird considering there's arguably an intent behind the casting in the first place; you'd think someone might have noted that 50 something Vimes romancing the now 20 something Sybil was a bad look. Maybe the producer's having a midlife crisis?


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    #115
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,181 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    At least Detritus is still made of rock I suppose :(


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    #116
    NyOmnishambles
    Registered Users Posts: 895 ✭✭✭NyOmnishambles


    I am normally happy to wait and watch something to give it the benefit of the doubt

    But may I just say
    ****. THIS


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    #117
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Making her young also makes the romance more skuzzy than it should be. Which is weird considering there's arguably an intent behind the casting in the first place; you'd think someone might have noted that 50 something Vimes romancing the now 20 something Sybil was a bad look. Maybe the producer's having a midlife crisis?

    There does seem to be a issue over there across the Big Pond with the concept of middle aged men finding middle aged women attractive.
    Or middle aged women even existing...


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    #118
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The watch are my favourites of the books.

    What they are making isn't the watch. It's new super hero franchise.


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    #119
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,115 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Race is not a character trait, no real issue with her being black (though she was always white in my head) but young, slim and attacking people?
    I was expecting more of a Judi Dench type.


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    #120
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Or Joanna Lumley...

    .. Not that it has to slavishly follow the books. But this seems like they just copied the liner notes then just decided to change everything. ...


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    #121
    donegal_man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,721 ✭✭✭donegal_man


    I imagined Sybil as a lady who had decided married life was not for her and having found her niche was happily settling into middle age somewhere in her early forties perhaps when she met Vimes, definitely younger than Dame Judy, after all they produced Young Sam.


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