Bye bye Public Services Card

BorneTobyWilde · 19-08-2019 3:54pm

Refusing people their right to travel was not making it easier for anyone to get a passport. Everyone has a right to apply for a passport and travel, to hold their heads over a barrel to prevent them getting a passport was just wrong.

Billgirlylegs · 19-08-2019 4:04pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I don’t have a lot of time for FG in general. I do like a few of their councillors locally who seem to be doing good work in many areas.
I have no problem with the PSC being used by Government departments if it makes my daily life easier when applying for passport, driving license etc.

How can it be exploited anyway?

Quote your PPSN.

After that produce documents to prove you are who you say you are.

If all you need to do is "produce a PSC" then what happens if you misplace it or someone learns how to copy it,

If it a simple process for you, rest assured its simple for someone else to pretend to be you.

uck51js9zml2yt · 19-08-2019 4:12pm

Calhoun wrote: »

They don't give off that vibe externally, they look like they are very weak when it comes to private entities.

I would think the outrage should be at the politicians and also the public servants who ****ed up the deployment and rollout but also the retention of data illegally.

You don't vote in politicians and get a full break down of how something will be rolled out. You also would expect the permanent fixture public servants would roll it out correctly and also not break the law.

The civil servants roll out something at the direction of the minister.

Floppybits · 19-08-2019 4:27pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I don’t have a lot of time for FG in general. I do like a few of their councillors locally who seem to be doing good work in many areas.
I have no problem with the PSC being used by Government departments if it makes my daily life easier when applying for passport, driving license etc.

How can it be exploited anyway?

Alot of people may not have a problem with a national ID card or the PSC, the issue that the people don't trust the government. They will feel that the goverment will do a half arsed job of securing the data, will sell the data to make a few quid or will misuse the data for their own gain. You can't really blame people for thinking this when FG and FF always put themselves, family, supporters, party all before the country.

tayto lover · 19-08-2019 4:39pm

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

Quote your PPSN.

After that produce documents to prove you are who you say you are.

If all you need to do is "produce a PSC" then what happens if you misplace it or someone learns how to copy it,

If it a simple process for you, rest assured its simple for someone else to pretend to be you.

When applying they ask you questions I.e. the name of your first pet.
Only you will know the answers.
It’s much the same as your password for logging in to things surely.

Graces7 · 19-08-2019 6:12pm

tayto lover wrote: »

When applying they ask you questions I.e. the name of your first pet.
Only you will know the answers.
It’s much the same as your password for logging in to things surely.

My PPSN number is on my medical card..which is always in my purse

Calhoun · 19-08-2019 7:15pm

Lola Victorious Ratchet wrote: »

The civil servants roll out something at the direction of the minister.

Civil servants are a near constant fixture within governments, i would be under the impression they have a bigger hand in the roll out of policy.

Maybe not but if i was to read what your saying all of this card has been rolled out at the ministers discretion despite the legal challenges meaning Doherty is at fault.

mrslancaster · 30-08-2019 6:51pm

The Highwayman wrote: »

I didn't think class action were possible in Ireland?

National ID cards? NO! I dont need to identify myself in my own country. It's a huge infringement on civil liberties.

Very surprised to see the wide range of bodies that the DSP had already shared Public Service Card information with..
https://psc.gov.ie/appendix-bodies-whom-received-the-public-service-identity-data-from-the-department-of-employment-affairs-social-protection-in-2016/

And this list of Specified Bodies who can access data
https://psc.gov.ie/specified-bodies/

It looks like a lot of the legal basis is in the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 brought in by FF and inherited by later governments.

https://psc.gov.ie/appendix-guide-to-the-legal-provisions-associated-with-the-public-services-card-psc/

Portsalon · 01-09-2019 12:36pm

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

Quote your PPSN. After that produce documents to prove you are who you say you are.

If it a simple process for you, rest assured its simple for someone else to pretend to be you.

Although not nearly as simple as it was before the PSC was introduced!

_Kaiser_ · 03-09-2019 8:28am

So FG are to challenge the Data Commissioner's findings, saying (among other things) that she exceeded her powers

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-to-challenge-order-that-public-services-card-had-no-basis-in-law-1.4005670

The Government will challenge the decision in court and defend the continued use of the card. They will also decline to publish the full report of the commissioner’s office.

The two departments have taken advice from the Attorney General and from an external counsel retained by the attorney’s office, who have advised that the commissioner’s decision was wrong in law and exceeded her powers.

The memo is understood to be critical of the commissioner’s move in publishing a press release announcing the decision.

The arrogance of FG never ceases to amaze me. Sounds more like they're annoyed that she let the plebs (us!) know than anything else.. And once again another report they don't intend to publish.

mrslancaster · 03-09-2019 1:56pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

So FG are to challenge the Data Commissioner's findings, saying (among other things) that she exceeded her powers

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-to-challenge-order-that-public-services-card-had-no-basis-in-law-1.4005670

The arrogance of FG never ceases to amaze me. Sounds more like they're annoyed that she let the plebs (us!) know than anything else.. And once again another report they don't intend to publish.

Reading the following bit of the SW 2005 act it looks like they can issue a PSC with all the details listed and any of the prescribed bodies can ask for it for any transaction.

Also, they can also change or add to the list of prescribed bodies at the whim of the minister for social protection which imo is the sneaky bit - they could put whoever they like on that list ...:eek:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/26/enacted/en/print#sec263

All the prescribed bodies can share information so maybe that's not allowed now because of GDPR. Does the GDPR legislation override anything that went beforehand?

BorneTobyWilde · 03-09-2019 1:59pm

It's already a suppressed news story. RTE is under control of Government, seems it's all being pushed under the carpet, and they will continue to use PSC and share information illegally with anyone they wish to, but what would you expect from one of the most corrupt countries in the western world

wiggle16 · 03-09-2019 2:17pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It's already a suppressed news story. RTE is under control of Government, seems it's all being pushed under the carpet, and they will continue to use PSC and share information illegally with anyone they wish to, but what would you expect from one of the most corrupt countries in the western world

If you had any idea how poor goverment departments are at sharing information with one another you'd throw your tinfoil hat away.

BorneTobyWilde · 03-09-2019 2:19pm

wiggle16 wrote: »

If you had any idea how poor goverment departments are at sharing information with one another you'd throw your tinfoil hat away.

I received no letter? They said all the people with a PSC would be contacted, never happened. They ignored the court and the law and carried on regardless.

ohnonotgmail · 03-09-2019 2:50pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I received no letter? They said all the people with a PSC would be contacted, never happened. They ignored the court and the law and carried on regardless.

the government is challenging the decision. No action will be taken until that has been exhausted.

blanch152 · 03-09-2019 3:57pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

Reading the following bit of the SW 2005 act it looks like they can issue a PSC with all the details listed and any of the prescribed bodies can ask for it for any transaction.

Also, they can also change or add to the list of prescribed bodies at the whim of the minister for social protection which imo is the sneaky bit - they could put whoever they like on that list ...:eek:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/26/enacted/en/print#sec263

All the prescribed bodies can share information so maybe that's not allowed now because of GDPR. Does the GDPR legislation override anything that went beforehand?

The last sentence of your post is one question. Also GDPR regulations do allow for exceptions for national identity cards. Whether our national identity card that isn't a national identity card qualifies for the exception is another question.

The DPC is qualified to judge it up to an extent, but the Courts have overturned DPC decisions before, and may do so again.

BorneTobyWilde · 03-09-2019 3:59pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the government is challenging the decision. No action will be taken until that has been exhausted.

So they'll bribe a judge to get what they want.

blanch152 · 03-09-2019 4:02pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

So they'll bribe a judge to get what they want.

http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/article-87-processing-of-the-national-identification-number-GDPR.htm

"Member States may further determine the specific conditions for the processing of a national identification number or any other identifier of general application. In that case the national identification number or any other identifier of general application shall be used only under appropriate safeguards for the rights and freedoms of the data subject pursuant to this Regulation. "

The issue isn't really whether the Government can use a national identification number, the issue is whether they did so correctly. If the national Courts, or ultimately the European courts rule that the Social Welfare Acts are not worded correctly, all they will have to do is correct the wording to continue using it, as Article 87 is pretty clear.

Sciprio · 03-09-2019 4:21pm

wiggle16 wrote: »

If you had any idea how poor goverment departments are at sharing information with one another you'd throw your tinfoil hat away.

He's not wrong! RTÉ is propaganda. And they want people to pay for it? The cheek of them!:D

wiggle16 · 03-09-2019 4:22pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

So they'll bribe a judge to get what they want.

Who are "they"? The government? The civil service? Why would the government need to bribe a judge when surely the judge is one of "them".

I am also one of "them". Lovely to meet you x

Portsalon · 03-09-2019 8:26pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

So FG are to challenge the Data Commissioner's findings, saying (among other things) that she exceeded her powers

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-to-challenge-order-that-public-services-card-had-no-basis-in-law-1.4005670

Excellent news for the taxpayer. Even more pleasing is the fact that it has greatly upset the tinfoil hat looper brigade!

I wonder will Bugs Bunny resign when she is found to have exceeded her powers.

Soulsun · 03-09-2019 9:44pm

Is there likely to be class action cases on this? And cost the tax payer more money?

banie01 · 03-09-2019 9:56pm

Soulsun wrote: »

Is there likely to be class action cases on this? And cost the tax payer more money?

There is no scope in law for a class action suit in Irish law that I am aware of.

The DPC issued a finding and the Government, indeed any party subject to such a finding are fully entitled to seek a review of that decision and it's appropriateness.

I would however be quite surprised if the DPC's rationale is anything but watertight on this.
GDPR has been a sea change for DP officers and departments and it has yet to be significantly challenged in Irish courts as yet.

The DPC will have run their report past external counsel and have sought more than 1 opinion that corroborates their position.

Government and by extension the department's will be scrambling to justify the positions and uses they have allowed the PSC to be extended to beyond the DEASP.
They will find some solicitor and barrister who will agree with their interpretations of the rules.

It will be up to a High Court Judge to review and decide, and that's something I have no problem with.
It's one of the massive benefits of living in a common law jurisdiction that we can challenge the interpretation and application of the law in instances such as this one.

radia · 03-09-2019 10:29pm

banie01 wrote: »

There is no scope in law for a class action suit in Irish law that I am aware of.

Article 80 in the GDPR has introduced the potential for collective action/claims consolidation. It's not exactly a class action, but it's closer than anything we've had before. It's been the subject of legal discussion - see these links from well known firms:
William Fry - Has the GDPR Opened the Door to Class Actions in Ireland?
DAC Beachcroft - Are GDPR Class Actions on the Horizon? An Irish Perspective

banie01 · 03-09-2019 10:34pm

radia wrote: »

Article 80 in the GDPR has introduced the potential for collective action/claims consolidation. It's not exactly a class action, but it's closer than anything we've had before. It's been the subject of legal discussion - see these links from well known firms:
William Fry - Has the GDPR Opened the Door to Class Actions in Ireland?
DAC Beachcroft - Are GDPR Class Actions on the Horizon? An Irish Perspective

Thanks for that

Worked until quite recently in DP and GDPR area and that particular caveat is news to me.

Always, always RTFM.. I mean the legislation! Fully :P

Calhoun · 04-09-2019 8:32am

Regina just on morning Ireland saying she will challenge the findings but thinks she has behaved legally. Could be the hill she dies on so close to an election.

Plumbthedepths · 04-09-2019 9:42am

Portsalon wrote: »

Excellent news for the taxpayer. Even more pleasing is the fact that it has greatly upset the tinfoil hat looper brigade!

I wonder will Bugs Bunny resign when she is found to have exceeded her powers.

So you know the outcome of the case before it is presented to a judge? Have you tonight's Lotto numbers?

Portsalon · 04-09-2019 10:01am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

So you know the outcome of the case before it is presented to a judge? Have you tonight's Lotto numbers?

Oh dear! Presumably your brain was unable to process the fact that irrespective of the outcome of the High Court appeal, a "bugs bunny" will be found to have exceeded her powers!

Subtle I grant you, and, in all fairness, few enough lotto players would be all that competent at spotting ambiguity.

So, to restate my sentence in lotto parlance: the house always wins.

blanch152 · 04-09-2019 10:18am

Calhoun wrote: »

Regina just on morning Ireland saying she will challenge the findings but thinks she has behaved legally. Could be the hill she dies on so close to an election.

Thought she was very reasonable.

Some of the questions from RTE were quite strange. Asking about costs of a court case in the Circuit Court, when the costs of reverting to paper forms in triplicate to confirm identity are far greater.

malinheader · 04-09-2019 10:22am

blanch152 wrote: »

Thought she was very reasonable.

Some of the questions from RTE were quite strange. Asking about costs of a court case in the Circuit Court, when the costs of reverting to paper forms in triplicate to confirm identity are far greater.

True. But loved the way when asked about spending tax payers money she said it wouldn't cost that much being in the circuit court. Would love to know what she thinks isn't very much.

blanch152 · 04-09-2019 10:34am

malinheader wrote: »

True. But loved the way when asked about spending tax payers money she said it wouldn't cost that much being in the circuit court. Would love to know what she thinks isn't very much.

If a court case is going to cost 50k, but it will cost 50 million to implement the DPC's finding, even if the government only have a 10% chance of winning, on an cost/benefit analysis, the best expenditure of taxpayer's money is to take the case.

Plumbthedepths · 04-09-2019 3:23pm

Portsalon wrote: »

Oh dear! Presumably your brain was unable to process the fact that irrespective of the outcome of the High Court appeal, a "bugs bunny" will be found to have exceeded her powers!

Subtle I grant you, and, in all fairness, few enough lotto players would be all that competent at spotting ambiguity.

So, to restate my sentence in lotto parlance: the house always wins.

As I said you are preempting a judge's decision. The rest of your comment demonstrates laughable ignorance, but I will say you are consistent in your commentary.

malinheader · 04-09-2019 3:24pm

blanch152 wrote: »

If a court case is going to cost 50k, but it will cost 50 million to implement the DPC's finding, even if the government only have a 10% chance of winning, on an cost/benefit analysis, the best expenditure of taxpayer's money is to take the case.

Where did you get the cost of 50k. The minister wasn't even able to give a cost when asked.

Plumbthedepths · 04-09-2019 3:32pm

malinheader wrote: »

Where did you get the cost of 50k. The minister wasn't even able to give a cost when asked.

Don't you know the experts in favour of the card know everything, except the costs or which court the challenge is being taken in .

blanch152 · 04-09-2019 4:57pm

malinheader wrote: »

Where did you get the cost of 50k. The minister wasn't even able to give a cost when asked.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Don't you know the experts in favour of the card know everything, except the costs or which court the challenge is being taken in .

blanch152 wrote: »

If a court case is going to cost 50k, but it will cost 50 million to implement the DPC's finding, even if the government only have a 10% chance of winning, on an cost/benefit analysis, the best expenditure of taxpayer's money is to take the case.

Which bit of "If" do you not understand?

The figures were speculative but illustrative in that the changes proposed by the DPC to the public service will cost a multiple of millions (but exact costs are unknown) and would add up to hundreds of millions over a decade while any court case would be a small fraction of that.

Plumbthedepths · 04-09-2019 5:32pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Which bit of "If" do you not understand?

The figures were speculative but illustrative in that the changes proposed by the DPC to the public service will cost a multiple of millions (but exact costs are unknown) and would add up to hundreds of millions over a decade while any court case would be a small fraction of that.

Your if and related figure is nothing but an attempt to put a positive spin on the behaviour of this government ,the rest of my comment was directed to a condescending individual who couldn't even be bothered getting their facts straight about which court will hear the action instead of the usual pathetic insult.

malinheader · 04-09-2019 5:38pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Which bit of "If" do you not understand?

The figures were speculative but illustrative in that the changes proposed by the DPC to the public service will cost a multiple of millions (but exact costs are unknown) and would add up to hundreds of millions over a decade while any court case would be a small fraction of that.

Sorry your getting so hot and bothered about this. And I understand you are only guessing how much the court case would cost.
Now do you understand the point I was making about how our overpaid ministers just shrug off the use of tax payers money when it comes to it.€50,000 wouldn't even come close in my opinion.

blanch152 · 04-09-2019 6:05pm

malinheader wrote: »

Sorry your getting so hot and bothered about this. And I understand you are only guessing how much the court case would cost.
Now do you understand the point I was making about how our overpaid ministers just shrug off the use of tax payers money when it comes to it.€50,000 wouldn't even come close in my opinion.

I think the opposite. Taking a court case for a sum of money that will stop many millions being sent if it is successful is very much worth it.

Even if the Attorney General had said this is very much 50-50, it is well worth challenging it in order to save the costs of compliance if the case is won.

Edit: Imagine if someone told you that you had to pay for a trip to the moon and it would cost €10m, but if you bought a €1 lottery card with a 1 in 3 chance, you wouldn't have to go to the moon and wouldn't have to pay €10m if you won. You would be mad not to buy the €1 lottery card especially if you didn't want to go to the moon.

malinheader · 04-09-2019 6:22pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I think the opposite. Taking a court case for a sum of money that will stop many millions being sent if it is successful is very much worth it.

Even if the Attorney General had said this is very much 50-50, it is well worth challenging it in order to save the costs of compliance if the case is won.

Edit: Imagine if someone told you that you had to pay for a trip to the moon and it would cost €10m, but if you bought a €1 lottery card with a 1 in 3 chance, you wouldn't have to go to the moon and wouldn't have to pay €10m if you won. You would be mad not to buy the €1 lottery card especially if you didn't want to go to the moon.

Still think it's a joke, very costly joke wasting taxpayers money to allow the government to challenge one of their own state bodies, who they fund in court. Simple solution is just scrap the card. Too many stupid, costly court cases and tribunals in this country.

04-09-2019 6:26pm

What’s all the fuss about? After all, numerous organisations have your PPS number. Along with your date of birth, address and photo. Should we start refusing to give them this information?

Portsalon · 04-09-2019 6:29pm

malinheader wrote: »

Still think it's a joke, very costly joke wasting taxpayers money to allow the government to challenge one of their own state bodies, who they fund in court. Simple solution is just scrap the card.

That would be complete insanity!

Even Bugs Bunny has conceded that the PSC could still legally be used for Social Welfare purposes.

Plumbthedepths · 04-09-2019 6:31pm

I have a little thing called a passport. 190 + countries worldwide accept this as proof as to my identity. The one exception was up until recently the Irish state who issued said document to me. I would like the government to be honest and have a debate in the Dail and if the intention is to have the PSC as an ID card put the legislation forward and vote on same. Not the underhanded BS they are currently engaged in.

boege · 04-09-2019 7:05pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I have a little thing called a passport. 190 + countries worldwide accept this as proof as to my identity. The one exception was up until recently the Irish state who issued said document to me. I would like the government to be honest and have a debate in the Dail and if the intention is to have the PSC as an ID card put the legislation forward and vote on same. Not the underhanded BS they are currently engaged in.

Not everyone has a passport and this is one reason why PSC came in. At the core of it's original purpose was to cut down fraud. Somewhere along the line it drifted.

Plumbthedepths · 04-09-2019 8:41pm

boege wrote: »

Not everyone has a passport and this is one reason why PSC came in. At the core of it's original purpose was to cut down fraud. Somewhere along the line it drifted.

You missed my point, up to the DPC ruling a valid passport issued by the state was not an acceptable form of ID for the purpose of verification of the identity of the holder. Mandatory but not compulsory, what a weasel way to twist words.

AndrewJRenko · 04-09-2019 9:12pm

boege wrote: »

At the core of it's original purpose was to cut down fraud.

A €60m project to save €2m in fraud?

lola85 · 04-09-2019 9:13pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

A €60m project to save €2m in fraud?

How much money leaves the country every week to Nigeria Poland etc for child benefit?

04-09-2019 9:52pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You missed my point, up to the DPC ruling a valid passport issued by the state was not an acceptable form of ID for the purpose of verification of the identity of the holder. Mandatory but not compulsory, what a weasel way to twist words.

A passport doesn’t contain your PPS number. That’s a unique identifier.

Plumbthedepths · 04-09-2019 11:02pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A passport doesn’t contain your PPS number. That’s a unique identifier.

Still choosing to miss the point, consistent as always.

04-09-2019 11:07pm

malinheader wrote: »

Still think it's a joke, very costly joke wasting taxpayers money to allow the government to challenge one of their own state bodies, who they fund in court. Simple solution is just scrap the card. Too many stupid, costly court cases and tribunals in this country.

scrapping the card and giving in to the paranoiac/luddite/anti-everything voices on this costs a huge amount in efficiencies delivered to the taxpayer and the movement of services between departments into the modern era

if you dont or wont understand this its pointless to discuss it further really.

malinheader · 04-09-2019 11:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

scrapping the card and giving in to the paranoiac/luddite/anti-everything voices on this costs a huge amount in efficiencies delivered to the taxpayer and the movement of services between departments into the modern era

if you dont or wont understand this its pointless to discuss it further really.

I couldn't care less what they do with the card. The point I made at the start was the way one of our ministers didn't give a shtie how much it will cost in a court case. Nothing new for this country. So just so you understand I couldn't care less what they do with the card.

Bye bye Public Services Card

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