Bye bye Public Services Card

circular flexing

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-state-told-to-delete-unlawful-data-on-3-2m-citizens-1.3987606

The State has been told it must delete data held on 3.2 million citizens, which was gathered as part of the roll-out of the Public Services Card, as there is no lawful basis for retaining it.

Glad to see this outcome.

ted1

I’m not.

circular flexing

ted1 wrote: »

I’m not.

Why not? Requiring a PSC to e.g. renew a passport was just a nonsense. I don't think it should be kept around for verifying social welfare payments though.

mickdw

I had to get one to renew a long expired passport.
Does this mean I no longer need it to get my passport?

fmpisces

It's the only valid ID I have at the moment. I don't drive so no license. Passport has expired and am waiting for my divorce before I renew it.

banie01

fmpisces wrote: »

It's the only valid ID I have at the moment. I don't drive so no license. Passport has expired and am waiting for my divorce before I renew it.

The card is still required for payments and services administered by the Dept of Social Protection such as benefits and the free travel schene.

It's not needed for any other services or applications that a requirement has been snuck into.
So no need for it, for License or Passport renewals, Susi, HSE and so on.

The data collected at PSC application cannot be retained either as other than the identity verification it serves no other lawful purpose.

It was the outcome signalled for quite a while by the ODPC and it's good to see their review bearing fruit.

RobbingBandit

Damn I lost my pps free travel card two weeks ago reported it on the day and still haven't received a replacement now I know why

Gatling

Doubt it's the end of it ,

A sly change in legislation will Keep it now the majority of the country actually have one

Seve OB

am i the only person in the country who never got one of these in the first place?

TheValeyard

Seve OB wrote: »

am i the only person in the country who never got one of these in the first place?

Nope. Didn't get one, don't need one.

Stephen15

So if this actually happens what will replace FTP, will we be going back to the old days of showing a paper pass to the driver? I would certainly regard that as a regressive step.

banie01

Gatling wrote: »

Doubt it's the end of it ,

It's still needed for all Department of Social Protection payments and Free Travel, so there is still currently a valid and legal requirement for the card in those specific circumstances.

The ODPC have knocked the requirement to have a card to access other government services on the head, aswell as requiring the deletion of the data provided during the PSC application.

I have no doubt however that the Government will try and find a way to keep the data but the ODPC are at least demonstrating a modicum of independent backbone on this topic.

Graces7

banie01 wrote: »

It's still needed for all Department of Social Protection payments and Free Travel, so there is still currently a valid and legal requirement for the card in those specific circumstances.

The ODPC have knocked the requirement to have a card to access other government services on the head, aswell as requiring the deletion of the data provided during the PSC application.

I have no doubt however that the Government will try and find a way to keep the data but the ODPC are at least demonstrating a modicum of independent backbone on this topic.

Interesting re the free travel; my pass is MIA but on record and currently no need for it at all. Going nowhere unless on 2 feet ...I had a very bruising encounter with the boss at Intreo when I was very new here and after that refused to apply. She was openly abusive.

angel eyes 2012

banie01 wrote: »

I have no doubt however that the Government will try and find a way to keep the data but the ODPC are at least demonstrating a modicum of independent backbone on this topic.

I would have considered the Department is bound by the National Archives Act of 1986 which stipulates that no record can be destroyed without formal certification from the Archives.

The National Archives have guidance in this area, advising that national legislation supersedes the GDPR in relation to the retention/destruction of national records. I'd be interested to know if the DPC made any reference to this obligation in their determination.

rafatoni

Seve OB wrote: »

am i the only person in the country who never got one of these in the first place?

i never even heard of it. No joke

_Kaiser_

ted1 wrote: »

I’m not.

Why not? It's clear that this was an attempt by FG to introduce a mandatory ID card and more critically, collect and reference a whole lot of data they had no business to.

Given the general incompetence of most state institutions (individual people who may be excellent aside), this outcome is a great result as it was only a matter of time before a significant breach or abuse of the data came to light.

I don't have one myself and fingers crossed I will never need one.

The J Stands for Jay

fmpisces wrote: »

It's the only valid ID I have at the moment. I don't drive so no license. Passport has expired and am waiting for my divorce before I renew it.

But the PSC has never been a valid form of ID.

STB.

You only need to look at the individual politicians involved to see why this mess wasn't sorted out before it got to this stage.

Of course the people who vote these incompetents are as much to blame subsequently appointed to positions they are not capable of.

And the commanders in the RSA should be hauled in and fired for ignoring the AG's advice for a further 5 months.

Beechwoodspark

Honestly I couldn’t believe how flippant and casual Regina Doherty was over the last few years regarding it.

No harm it’s gone and she should be sacked

Beechwoodspark

Regina Doherty when asked over the last few years was more or less saying ah sure it’ll be grand

Chancer or lazy I don’t know

She should be sacked ASAP

Beechwoodspark

Graces7 wrote: »

Interesting re the free travel; my pass is MIA but on record and currently no need for it at all. Going nowhere unless on 2 feet ...I had a very bruising encounter with the boss at Intreo when I was very new here and after that refused to apply. She was openly abusive.

Sorry to hear that graces 7

No need for abuse from someone providing a public service

What was the nature of the abusive treatment

vicwatson

Seve OB wrote: »

am i the only person in the country who never got one of these in the first place?

+1

jim salter

No only should Regina Doherty and Paschal Donohoe should be charged with offences.

"Public Expenditure and Reform Minister Paschal Donohoe is now calling on anyone over the age of 18 who has not yet signed up for a Public Services Card (PSC) to do so." - https://www.newstalk.com/news/what-is-a-public-services-card-and-do-i-need-one-581773

https://www.thejournal.ie/regina-doherty-psc-4503956-Feb2019/

Not to mention the company who got the contract to handle the data : https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/firms-involved-in-biometric-database-in-india-contracted-by-irish-government-1.3214640

angel eyes 2012

Are you sure about that, that is the first instance I have heard that public records with personal data do not fall under the remit of the National Archives. Section 61 of the Data Protection Act 2018, which restricts the exercise of data subjects' rights for archiving purposes, states otherwise. I'd be grateful if you could share any authority or guidance that you are relying on.

sydthebeat

Seve OB wrote: »

am i the only person in the country who never got one of these in the first place?

Nope, me neither

_Kaiser_

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Regina Doherty when asked over the last few years was more or less saying ah sure it’ll be grand

Chancer or lazy I don’t know

A little from column A... A little from column B

She should be sacked ASAP

She should, as should several of her colleagues, but she won't.

We don't do political accountability in this country. Even on those rare occasions when their positions become completely untenable, at most they get a temporary slap on the wrist, and welcomed back into the fold not too long after.

At least in the UK, politicians do actually resign or even quit/rebel based on certain issues. Here the aim is solely to enrich yourself, relatives and your hangers on, and set yourself up for a cushy board membership or 3 afterwards.

OfflerCrocGod

I don't get the problem with having a government ID card, maybe this will force them to treat it as one and put it on a sound legal basis.

Roger_007

Perhaps the Data Commissioner should now investigate and issue a report on the Register of Births Deaths and Marriages. This contains very sensitive information which is kept on every citizen and is available to anyone who wishes to obtain information from it.

Allinall

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

I don't get the problem with having a government ID card, maybe this will force them to treat it as one and put it on a sound legal basis.

+1.

Rather than calling for sackings, the legislation should be changed to allow for the cards to operate as they were designed.

Dytalus

dudara wrote: »

The card will still be required to access certain services. These are the ones where the law supports the use of the PSC. What this ruling essentially says is that a lot of other services had no legal basis to demand the card. This means one of two things will happen. Those services will work away without the card, or they will lobby for law changes so that the law says they require the card.

This ruling highlights deficiencies in two areas, firstly excessive retention of data and secondly, a misunderstanding of the concept of legal basis. Really glad to see the DPC investigate this and come out with a clear finding.

We have a pretty solid Commissioner, as it happens. I always expected a good (read: impartial) result out of the investigation. Helen Dixon isn't as prone to handing out fines as the UK's DPC is, but I kind of prefer the tact of directing people how to do things correctly rather than an outright fine straight off the bat. GDPR is still really new, and there's not a lot of case law to figure out how things should work under it just yet.

There is, I think, some data sharing legislation in the works between Departments. Or at least there should be a push for it. It's kind of a waste that every Department has its own record of the basics of each person. If you want to update your personal data with the government (as you're fully allowed to under the GDPR and Data Protection Act) you need to contact each Department individually - anytime you're communicating with a public body they could have different information to the last public body you contacted because only one of them got...I dunno, you're new contact address or something. It's a pain, and a waste of manpower. And not every Department is staffed to the same level of IT security expertise to protect that data. I'd imagine if the Sharing legislation does actually come into effect that there'd be provisions within it covering the Public Services Card as a form of identification and accessing government services.

But, the Irish Government being the Irish Government, they didn't make sure they had the foundations properly in place before everyone started demanding the PSC. They just kind of haphazardly branched out its use. I'm glad they got smacked round the head for not bothering to do this properly.

irishgeo

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

I don't get the problem with having a government ID card, maybe this will force them to treat it as one and put it on a sound legal basis.

The tin foil hat gang will be out. People who don't want it usually have something to hide.

That card should be kept for the social welfare fraud reductions alone. The PPS number system is a joke. People sharing them. I would also use the card to clean up the voting register.

previousmass

circular flexing wrote: »

Why not? Requiring a PSC to e.g. renew a passport was just a nonsense. I don't think it should be kept around for verifying social welfare payments though.

They don't require a psc to renew a passport. Maybe they did at some point but I renewed my passport without having one.

banie01

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

I would have considered the Department is bound by the National Archives Act of 1986 which stipulates that no record can be destroyed without formal certification from the Archives.

The National Archives have guidance in this area, advising that national legislation supersedes the GDPR in relation to the retention/destruction of national records. I'd be interested to know if the DPC made any reference to this obligation in their determination.

It very much depends on the definition of records and I'm sure the act lays that out.

I haven't read the archives act, so I don't have an informed opinion.
I would assume however that the archives act would relate to the census, CSO data, Government correspondence, legal advice, Policy advice, minutes of meetings and so on?

Rather than holding copies of bills, and other personal data submitted by citizens in support of a PSC card application?

InTheShadows

I've used it for various services and think it's a great idea.

KildareP

Never bothered getting one myself either although they have been hounding me endlessly and going to the liberty of making several appointments "for my convenience".


Wouldn't mind but the appointments are office hours only, meaning I'd have to take time off work and frankly, there's nothing I'm currently entitled to that requires a PSC - so why bother!

dhaughton99

A cock up to begin with because you couldn’t use it as id due to no date of birth on it. Thought there was a new one coming out next year? Mine expires in 2020 anyway.

Snow Garden

What kind of gobdaws are running this tiny country??

yrreg0850

Something will have to be done as regards ID.
While I think the introduction of this card was a back door to a national identity --(possibly on the instructions from Brussles)


An elderly relation of mine who has neither a passport, or driving licence , was unable to open a post office account recently using this card as ID.

Roger_007

Snow Garden wrote: »

What kind of gobdaws are running this tiny country??

They are elected by the gobdaws who live here.

kunst nugget

previousmass wrote: »

They don't require a psc to renew a passport. Maybe they did at some point but I renewed my passport without having one.

If your passport was less than five years out of date then you didn't need one.

fmpisces

McGaggs wrote: »

But the PSC has never been a valid form of ID.

Yep I get that's the case by and large, but I have been able to use it a couple of times since I got it.

Vologda69

McGaggs wrote: »

But the PSC has never been a valid form of ID.

The NDLS accept it as photo ID instead of a passport if you lose your licence

angel eyes 2012

banie01 wrote: »

It very much depends on the definition of records and I'm sure the act lays that out.

I haven't read the archives act, so I don't have an informed opinion.
I would assume however that the archives act would relate to the census, CSO data, Government correspondence, legal advice, Policy advice, minutes of meetings and so on?

Rather than holding copies of bills, and other personal data submitted by citizens in support of a PSC card application?

Section 2 of the Act provides for a very board interpretation of the definition of a record that falls under the remit of the National Archives and the examples you have cited are not expressly stated, however terms like “files”; “papers” and “other processed material” are.

I am not disputing the Department in this case cannot hold on to the material indefinitely, however Departments have to be cognisant of national legislation and can't just start shredding documents that the ordinary joe soap would consider superfluous, otherwise it leaves Departments free to destroy all manner of records. A qualified archivist can only make that determination in consultation with the appropriate Department.

Neamhshuntasach

McGaggs wrote: »

But the PSC has never been a valid form of ID.

I ended up with only due to paternity leave and it was required.

But I have since travelled to London numerous times using it when I lost a bag with passport and license in it. And both Aer Lingus and BA have accepted it as ID. As did immigration on both sides. So it does appear to be valid for the common travel area anyways.

Harry Palmr

Where does this leave anyone who was planning on registering with MyGov.ie Do they have to come up with a different system?

Vetch

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Section 2 of the Act provides for a very board interpretation of the definition of a record that falls under the remit of the National Archives and the examples you have cited are not expressly stated, however terms like “files”; “papers” and “other processed material” are.

I am not disputing the Department in this case cannot hold on to the material indefinitely, however Departments have to be cognisant of national legislation and can't just start shredding documents that the ordinary joe soap would consider superfluous, otherwise it leaves Departments free to destroy all manner of records. A qualified archivist can only make that determination in consultation with the appropriate Department.

There is an established process (under the law) for destruction of records https://www.nationalarchives.ie/services-to-government-and-courts/disposal-of-departmental-records/.

banie01

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

.

I am not disputing the Department in this case cannot hold on to the material indefinitely, however Departments have to be cognisant of national legislation and can't just start shredding documents that the ordinary joe soap would consider superfluous, otherwise it leaves Departments free to destroy all manner of records. A qualified archivist can only make that determination in consultation with the appropriate Department.

I'd certainly agree that the documents held by the Government and their archival value is something that needs to be both addressed and IMHO legislated for.
The archival value of Paddy Joe's ESB bill, is quite different IMO than the archival value of Paddy Joe's census entries.

The same people that are delighted that the ODPC has put manners on the Govt, would be aghast if the same Govt decided to apply the GDPR criteria to broad swathes of Govt files

That said, I do not have any knowledge at all of the Archives act but I certainly do appreciate the importance of ensuring a degree of "completeness" in the state archives.

On a side Angel Eyes, I always enjoy seeing your contributions on privacy and GDPR concerns.
Always a view that I find I hadn't quite considered and always something to learn from them.

Plumbthedepths

Another expensive F**k up by FG, what a surprise......

banie01

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Another expensive F**k up by FG, what a surprise......

The PSC card in and of itself isnt really the problem IMHO.
What is very much at issue, and is very much a result of the political efforts to spread the reach of the PSC is again the competence of the politicians that drove the spread of the "mandatory but not compulsory" drive to integrate the PSC across multiple services and departments.

The original legislation giving rise to the PSC is not at all appropriate for the uses it was forced to.

That said, I really do feel that a single integrated record could make huge inroads into the administration costs of SW, revenue and other departments.

That needs to balanced however with the risks that a breach of such a voluminous system could have on citizens.
Take the recent hack of the tax records in Bulgaria as an example.

TLDR: The PSC card is in its essence a good idea, however the usual Irish poor legislation, poor implementation and creep have torpedeod it.
Without significant revised legislative basis, it should be fully restricted to the originally legislated intent.

ted1

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Why not? It's clear that this was an attempt by FG to introduce a mandatory ID card and more critically, collect and reference a whole lot of data they had no business to.

Given the general incompetence of most state institutions (individual people who may be excellent aside), this outcome is a great result as it was only a matter of time before a significant breach or abuse of the data came to light.

I don't have one myself and fingers crossed I will never need one.

I think a national ID is good. There’s to many people taking advantage of the system and this would help eliminate it.

Plumbthedepths

[quote=

TLDR: The PSC card is in its essence a good idea, however the usual Irish poor legislation, poor implementation and creep have torpedeod it.
Without significant revised legislative basis, it should be fully restricted to the originally legislated intent.[/quote]

I have no issue with the card being used to interact with the DESP, if the government wants to introduce an all encompassing ID card again no issue but it needs to be done in an open and transparent manner and put before the Dail for debate. As usual FG went the arrogance route.