Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

GM228 · 21-07-2019 1:00pm

As already stated 757s don't have a fuel dump system and don't require one.

Many planes don't have fuel dump systems (A320, A330 etc) so long as certain performance requirements are met.

A fuel dump system is not required if climb requirements (for all engines running and also one engine failure) at maximum takeoff weight, less the actual or computed weight of fuel necessary for a 15-minute flight comprised of a takeoff, go-around, and landing at the airport of departure with the airplane configuration, speed, power, and thrust the same as that used in meeting the applicable takeoff, approach, and landing climb.

sherology · 21-07-2019 1:45pm

EI a321lr photos - full profile: https://aibfamily.flights/A320/8887

marno21 · 21-07-2019 2:33pm

The bird was kind enough not to do much damage. EI-LBT just airborne for Hartford

kevinandrew · 21-07-2019 3:51pm

First photos of the soon to be EI-LRA in the air;

https://www.netairspace.com/photos/D-AYAV/Aer_Lingus/Airbus_A321-253NX/XFW_EDHI_Hamburg_Finkenwerder/photo_340361/

https://www.netairspace.com/photos/D-AYAV/Aer_Lingus/Airbus_A321-253NX/HAM_EDDH_Hamburg_Fuhlsbuettel_Helmut_Schmidt/photo_340603/

There's usually one more test flight followed by delivery.

ohigg84 · 21-07-2019 3:56pm

kevinandrew wrote: »

First photos of the soon to be EI-LRA in the air;

https://www.netairspace.com/photos/D-AYAV/Aer_Lingus/Airbus_A321-253NX/XFW_EDHI_Hamburg_Finkenwerder/photo_340361/

https://www.netairspace.com/photos/D-AYAV/Aer_Lingus/Airbus_A321-253NX/HAM_EDDH_Hamburg_Fuhlsbuettel_Helmut_Schmidt/photo_340603/

There's usually one more test flight followed by delivery.

Very nice, but it still doesn't command the elegance of the mighty 757!

Will miss those 757s

Shamrockj · 21-07-2019 4:13pm

Once -LRA is delivered what time scale are people thinking it will be before LRB,C,D?
Also does anyone have any ideas when the 2 A330-300's will be delivered?

kevinandrew · 21-07-2019 5:00pm

Shamrockj wrote: »

Once -LRA is delivered what time scale are people thinking it will be before LRB,C,D?
Also does anyone have any ideas when the 2 A330-300's will be delivered?

'LRB is currently fully painted and outside in the riverside storage area, if it follows the same timetable as 'LRA it should be there a few days before spending the next month or two in the hangers followed by flight tests and delivery. My own rough guess for delivery would be sometime in mid-late September. 'LRC is on the final assembly line, tail painted and wings attached.

As for the A333s, I believe one is due late this year with the second shortly after in the new year. One source suggests the first fuselage section was at Hamburg earlier this month, Airbus don't actually assemble A330s at their Hamburg plant but do make certain sections for them so I'm guessing this piece will be transported by the Airbus Beluga to Toulouse for final assembly later in the year.

adam88 · 21-07-2019 7:13pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

EI have ordered the A321LR for east coast ops and the XLR for further scope. The regular neo wouldn’t have the range. Business class seats will be fitted.

Thanks for the reply. Seen a pic of an airbus neo today. On the side it had display showing it can do Paris to New York. Is this correct ???

Locker10a · 21-07-2019 7:16pm

adam88 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. Seen a pic of an airbus neo today. On the side it had display showing it can do Paris to New York. Is this correct ???

Yes! Why would the print that on the side if it was a lie?

tanya1987 · 21-07-2019 7:27pm

Locker10a wrote: »

Yes! Why would the print that on the side if it was a lie?

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ Locker10a ur answer made me laugh

Kcormahs · 21-07-2019 7:51pm

How many cabin crew on the a321lr for aer Lingus? 4 or 5?

cloudhopper19 · 21-07-2019 8:10pm

4

Kcormahs wrote: »

How many cabin crew on the a321lr for aer Lingus? 4 or 5?

Kcormahs · 21-07-2019 8:27pm

cloudhopper19 wrote: »

4

Is that a final decision? I heard they were in negotiations with Unions

Jack1985 · 21-07-2019 8:50pm

Kcormahs wrote: »

Is that a final decision? I heard they were in negotiations with Unions

What you heard last is correct, company are continuing to plan for 4.

adam88 · 21-07-2019 8:51pm

Locker10a wrote: »

Yes! Why would the print that on the side if it was a lie?

Someone above replied that the neo wouldn’t have the range to do east coast

Jack1985 · 21-07-2019 8:53pm

adam88 wrote: »

Someone above replied that the neo wouldn’t have the range to do east coast

To be frank, depending on cabin configuration and business model (targeting of cargo etc), range can be limited to what most manufactures determine as ''range''.

adam88 · 21-07-2019 8:56pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

To be frank, depending on cabin configuration and business model (targeting of cargo etc), range can be limited to what most manufactures determine as ''range''.

Suppose what I’m getting at and asking is, will the new 321 neo’s be flying east coast ???

Jack1985 · 21-07-2019 8:59pm

adam88 wrote: »

Suppose what I’m getting at and asking is, will the new 321 neo’s be flying east coast ???

Of course, hence why they have been purchased. The current NEO will have no issues from DUB/SNN to BDL/BOS/EWR/IAD/JFK/PHL/YYZ. Anything further you run into issues.

tanya1987 · 21-07-2019 9:50pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

What you heard last is correct, company are continuing to plan for 4.

Union would be silly in accepting 4? All airlines operating the LR with 5+. Plus EI has 16 in business and 168 in Y, full service?

Jamie2k9 · 21-07-2019 9:57pm

tanya1987 wrote: »

Union would be silly in accepting 4? All airlines operating the LR with 5+. Plus EI has 16 in business and 168 in Y, full service?

The ship has long saled for the union to kick up a fuss. The time for 5 agree or not was when the B752 deals was done.

EIMH · 21-07-2019 9:59pm

Just to clarify something here
The 321 neo's EI are getting in the near future are the LR (long range) variant
The A321LR variant provides extended range for the A320neo Family’s longest fuselage version, able to fly routes of up to 4,000 nm with 206 passengers by utilising extra fuel in three Additional Centre Tanks (ACTs).

The standard 321neo would have a very limited TA range in particular westbound in some weather conditions

Van.Bosch · 21-07-2019 10:00pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

Of course, hence why they have been purchased. The current NEO will have no issues from DUB/SNN to BDL/BOS/EWR/IAD/JFK/PHL/YYZ. Anything further you run into issues.

These are the LR’s though, I think the poster is asking about regular NEO A321’s.

Regular Neo’s Won’t

LR Neo’s will (Which EI have coming).

Jack1985 · 21-07-2019 10:48pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

These are the LR’s though, I think the poster is asking about regular NEO A321’s.

Regular Neo’s Won’t

LR Neo’s will (Which EI have coming).

Apologies read that wrong!

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The ship has long saled for the union to kick up a fuss. The time for 5 agree or not was when the B752 deals was done.

Your a bit of the mark with that statement, what you refer to as ''fuss'' without having any insight to the actual issues shows your lack of knowledge at the situation. One crew member will have an increased workload of 33% without any change to conditions (as proposed by EI). And I'm glad you point out the 757, because those agreements are now irrelevant.

EI Mgmt know they are out on the odd foot crewing with 4 (a continuation of the 757 policy) but with a substantially increased workload for Business and with the cabin configuration creating additional issues.

Last I heard it was the company offering things left, right and centre in an attempt to hang on to a cabin crew crewing level of 4, but the union are still holding out. The pressure mounts for one side as the 2nd of August approaches.

tanya1987 · 21-07-2019 10:53pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

Apologies read that wrong!

Your a bit of the mark with that statement, what you refer to as ''fuss'' without having any insight to the actual issues shows your lack of knowledge at the situation. One crew member will have an increased workload of 33% without any change to conditions (as proposed by EI). And I'm glad you point out the 757, because those agreements are now irrelevant.

EI Mgmt know they are out on the odd foot crewing with 4 (a continuation of the 757 policy) but with a substantially increased workload for Business and with the cabin configuration creating additional issues.

Last I heard it was the company offering things left, right and centre in an attempt to hang on to a cabin crew crewing level of 4, but the union are still holding out. The pressure mounts for one side as the 2nd of August approaches.

You couldnt have said it better. Plus if on the 757 for being min crew there was already agreements extra in place, on the NEO it cant be different.

Jack1985 · 21-07-2019 10:57pm

tanya1987 wrote: »

You couldnt have said it better. Plus if on the 757 for being min crew there was already agreements extra in place, on the NEO it cant be different.

The company thought this would be the case for NEO (they wanted to can all existing 75 agreements, ruling them as irrelevant) so the union took them on this and with an LRC agreement regarding updated 330 crewing levels are driving a hammer at them so to speak which has caused them to confirm all existing payment levels would continue but they've started out on such a bad footing they are offering other incentives too but the union continue to hold out.

Irish Steve · 21-07-2019 10:59pm

Sexual Chocolate wrote: »

Did it head out to the Irish Sea because it had to dump fuel ?

No, 757 can't dump fuel, they made an overweight landing, the profile of that approach is pretty much a standard approach, and even more so if they needed a bit of extra time to get things right due to non normal operations. We don't know if they shut one engine down or not, either way, they had plenty to do before landing.

tanya1987 · 21-07-2019 11:03pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

The company thought this would be the case for NEO (they wanted to can all existing 75 agreements, ruling them as irrelevant) so the union took them on this and with an LRC agreement regarding updated 330 crewing levels are driving a hammer at them so to speak which has caused them to confirm all existing payment levels would continue but they've started out on such a bad footing they are offering other incentives too but the union continue to hold out.

Updated on the 330 crewing? Are u on about the 9th cc agreement? But what does that have to do with the neo?

Jamie2k9 · 21-07-2019 11:06pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

Apologies read that wrong!

Your a bit of the mark with that statement, what you refer to as ''fuss'' without having any insight to the actual issues shows your lack of knowledge at the situation. One crew member will have an increased workload of 33% without any change to conditions (as proposed by EI). And I'm glad you point out the 757, because those agreements are now irrelevant.

EI Mgmt know they are out on the odd foot crewing with 4 (a continuation of the 757 policy) but with a substantially increased workload for Business and with the cabin configuration creating additional issues.

Last I heard it was the company offering things left, right and centre in an attempt to hang on to a cabin crew crewing level of 4, but the union are still holding out. The pressure mounts for one side as the 2nd of August approaches.

Im not disputing the extra work load as I said agree or not with 4/5. Unions might be holding out but right now Aer Lingus have the upper hand (crew levels not retention as mentioned) If unions had the opportunity to have 5 they would do everything possible to get it including a strike. If the B752 agreements had 5 would have 5 on A321s no questions.

They might well offer a financial incentive again before 5 is considered and difficult to 5 even been considered before end of summer.

Jack1985 · 21-07-2019 11:06pm

tanya1987 wrote: »

Updated on the 330 crewing? Are u on about the 9th cc agreement? But what does that have to do with the neo?

Probably not wise to go in to detail here, but updated in regards to supervision levels (ratio of SN on-board to CC). The union are offering compromise for that ruling but coupled with a NEO agreement. So they are driving seat for two issues if that makes sense.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Im not disputing the extra work load as I said agree or not with 4/5. Unions might be holding out but right now Aer Lingus have the upper hand. If unions had the opportunity to have 5 they would do everything possible to get it. If the B752 agreements had 5 would have 5 on A321s no questions.

They might well offer a financial incentive again before 5 is considered and difficult to 5 even been considered before end of summer.

Do you mind referring to how EI have the upper hand here ?

tanya1987 · 21-07-2019 11:13pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

Probably not wise to go in to detail here, but updated in regards to supervision levels (ratio of SN on-board to CC). The union are offering compromise for that ruling but coupled with a NEO agreement. So they are driving seat for two issues if that makes sense.

Do you mind referring to how EI have the upper hand here ?

I get u. But still even if the ratio sn cc on the 330 is cut permanently the neo wont get 2 sn. Max will be 1sn330 for 1cc extra on the neo (aka the 5th)

Jack1985 · 21-07-2019 11:18pm

tanya1987 wrote: »

I get u. But still even if the ratio sn cc on the 330 is cut permanently the neo wont get 2 sn. Max will be 1sn330 for 1cc extra on the neo (aka the 5th)

I would imagine for NEO they are looking along the lines of 1SN (acting SU), additional SN and 3 CCMs..

Jamie2k9 · 21-07-2019 11:19pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

Probably not wise to go in to detail here, but updated in regards to supervision levels (ratio of SN on-board to CC). The union are offering compromise for that ruling but coupled with a NEO agreement. So they are driving seat for two issues if that makes sense.

Do you mind referring to how EI have the upper hand here ?

In terms of minimum crew numbers onboard. It doesn't mean unions cant make things difficult and try get it changed and staff pack the job in. Had the B752s had 5 there would be no real dispute for crewing A321s. Management wouldn't suggest reducing it and unlikely unions would try for 6.

tanya1987 · 21-07-2019 11:20pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

I would imagine for NEO they are looking along the lines of 1SN (acting SU), additional SN and 3 CCMs..

Yeah however that won’t happen lol they’d be lucky to get 1sccm and 4cc even without acting

Jack1985 · 21-07-2019 11:26pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

In terms of minimum crew numbers onboard. It doesn't mean unions cant make things difficult and try get it changed and staff pack the job in. Had the B752s had 5 there would be no real dispute for crewing A321s. Management wouldn't suggest reducing it and unlikely unions would try for 6.

Jamie what you term as difficult is the workload balance of employed people in the company. The company themselves have admitted it increases workloads ''exorbitantly'' and have offered compromise in terms of a monetary value coupled with updated Business class service flow to the union.

They are off on a bad foot , they went to the LRC expecting the world recently and walked out ghost faced. The company have 4 extra J seats and 3 extra in economy coupled with overall lower operating costs, even with what they are offering they are still earning extra margin per seat and I have been told a 5th crew member wouldn't bring the situation to the 757 having the cost advantage the NEO still wins out. This is penny pinching which has reached ridiculous levels across the organisation (they've shown that for themselves at the start of these negotiations).

So your reference to EI have an upper hand is laughable.

tanya1987 wrote: »

Yeah however that won’t happen lol they’d be lucky to get 1sccm and 4cc even without acting

The current SN on the 757 acts as SU and receives payment for it. I am told they want another SN but wouldn't surprise me either if this changes to an additional CCM. The overall goal here is to get better agreement both in terms of workload and pay.

Locker10a · 21-07-2019 11:27pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

In terms of minimum crew numbers onboard. It doesn't mean unions cant make things difficult and try get it changed and staff pack the job in. Had the B752s had 5 there would be no real dispute for crewing A321s. Management wouldn't suggest reducing it and unlikely unions would try for 6.

I guess the issue is the NEO and 752 aren’t the same in terms of passengers ratio and work load. The NEO is more passengers and more work, particularly for Business class.

kevinandrew · 21-07-2019 11:35pm

Aer Lingus would probably be wise to agree to the introduction of a fifth crew member in the long term but it won't be without cost and like any sane business, Aer Lingus will want to recover that cost quite quickly. How the airline could go about that is something for staff and unions to consider.

As for who has the upper hand, big business *always* has the upper hand in the long term and Aer Lingus is big business.

liiga · 22-07-2019 12:36am

So a321neo are still down to be delivered on 23th tuesday ?

Locker10a · 22-07-2019 12:45am

liiga wrote: »

So a321neo are still down to be delivered on 23th tuesday ?

No the 26th subject (likely) to change

joeysoap · 22-07-2019 12:54am

Silly I know, but could they do 4 to BOS,EWR, and JFK and 5 for all other ( longer)

joeysoap · 22-07-2019 1:05am

tanya1987 wrote: »

I get u. But still even if the ratio sn cc on the 330 is cut permanently the neo wont get 2 sn. Max will be 1sn330 for 1cc extra on the neo (aka the 5th)

What is the ratio at the moment?

Tenger · 22-07-2019 1:14am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The ship has long saled for the union to kick up a fuss. The time for 5 agree or not was when the B752 deals was done.

If I remember correctly at the time (2012?) company stated that the B757 was being introduced in order to retain Shannon based crew base. At the time SNN was losing money for EI.
They stated that a demand for 5 crew would result in the base being closed and all B757 cabin crew being ASL employees. So the union caved in order to retain EI jobs.

The introduction of the A321LR to replace the B757s and the additional 10 airframes for expansion undercuts any threats of doom and gloom from EI mgmt. The A321LR is cheaper to operate than the B757 so EI are actually expecting higher profits after its introduction. (I cant see them passing on those savings to A321LR pax?)
If a single extra cc member is the difference between a viable or non-viable route, then they shouldnt be launching it in the first place.

As for 4 or 5 crew on certain routes. I would expect 5 are actually more important on the shorter routes in order to provide the same inflight service. High yield pax will expect the A321LR to offer the same service level as the A330. They wont get with 4 crew without screwing over the ppl in Economy.

EG. EI A320 has 4 crew and 174 seats. (Granted its a buy onboard service rather than full service)
A321LR will have 168 pax expecting full service, on top of the 16 Business Class punters who dont like having empty glasses or plates.

Locker10a · 22-07-2019 1:31am

joeysoap wrote: »

Silly I know, but could they do 4 to BOS,EWR, and JFK and 5 for all other ( longer)

I know where your coming from and there is some logic, but it’s actually the shortest flights where the extra pair of hands would work best in terms of speed of service, especially for business class passengers who want to maximum sleep.
EI need to be careful here, if they let business class standards slip, high yield passengers will jump to competitors who provide better service. Especially regulars who’ll want to rest and won’t want a meal service dragging on for hours being run by one crew member. EI indeed run the 757 with 4 crew, by comparison US carriers carry generally 5/6 crew for a transatlantic 757 flight.

kevinandrew · 22-07-2019 2:49am

Always worth remembering that ongoing lease costs will also be higher when talking about new aircraft, especially one in such demand as the A321LR, obviously IAG will have got a decent enough deal but even they can't defy the market rates.

Aer Lingus is also now set to have the full cost responsibility of the A321LR, that's likely a considerable increase over the current 757 arrangement but the increase in capacity, economies of scale, lower fuel and expanded network that the A321LR brings is designed to offset those higher initial costs in the long term.

The company will have forecast all the lease and operational costs, revenue growth, route profiles and fuel savings of the A321LR as part of their proposal to IAG, which will want to keep a very close eye on how their asset is being utilised. It makes business sense for Aer Lingus to want to maximise profitability on these new aircraft and prove to IAG it was a wise investment. If their models are saying its possible on four crew without noticeable disruption to inflight service, you'll have a very hard time convincing them otherwise, especially this late in the day.

If Aer Lingus eventually agree to a fifth crew member, I wouldn't expect it to happen before next summer. This year has been budgeted for.

cson · 22-07-2019 8:34am

Going to be very interested to see how they do with O&D for European J Class on routes the A321LRs will be placed on post US arrival (granted they'll be very limited). It'd be leaps and bounds ahead of the EuroBusiness ****e every legacy runs across Europe at the moment, even if its only the hard product.

LXFlyer · 22-07-2019 9:03am

cson wrote: »

Going to be very interested to see how they do with O&D for European J Class on routes the A321LRs will be placed on post US arrival (granted they'll be very limited). It'd be leaps and bounds ahead of the EuroBusiness ****e every legacy runs across Europe at the moment, even if its only the hard product.

I dunno - I might be biased given my username, but while the seat on LX (SWISS) is a standard seat, the service in their European Business Class puts the rest of the offerings in/out of Dublin to shame.

goingnowhere · 22-07-2019 10:06am

It will be interesting, but it will be limited, LHR, CDG the rest we don't know yet. But I'd imagine the first two flights of the day to LHR will be LR's.

BA and whats left of AF/CityJet should watch out

joeysoap · 22-07-2019 6:42pm

And they’ll have to have 5 on European routes 16+186 = 202?

kevinandrew · 22-07-2019 6:49pm

joeysoap wrote: »

And they’ll have to have 5 on European routes 16+186 = 202?

It's 184 in total, 168 + 16 is the configuration.

Four crew should be more than enough for a European sector.

adam88 · 22-07-2019 6:54pm

What I want to know is will this free up a frame for Vegas ??????

Sorry. I just couldn’t help myself

Hotblack Desiato · 22-07-2019 7:19pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

We don't know if they shut one engine down or not, either way, they had plenty to do before landing.

Engine 2 reverser deployed after landing so looks like they didn't actually shut it down?

Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

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