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Garda Apology

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    #212
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    How about not being charged with pre-marital sex and having a child out of wedlock? How about not being questioned about her private and past sex life at a hearing made up of men? How about not questioning her contraceptive methods now? How about not blaming her for being punished for having a normal, adult life and getting pregnant in her 20s?

    Those are garda regulations.
    When you are training with the Gardai or the defence forces you are under constant scrutiny. If anything she left all her fellow students down by not being able to uphold discipline. If the Gardai cant hold it together morally how are they supposed to uphold the rule of law.
    My cousin was dismissed as a teacher in the 1990's from a school for having a child out of wedlock. She got another post closer to home in a state school, she was grand.


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    #213
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    She was in state service, I would have booted her out for not being fit for training and bringing the force into disrepute. She knew the regulations.

    You are probably right. She should have been flogged too I suppose. That'd learn her.


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    #214
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    morebarn2 wrote: »
    Mrsmum wrote: »
    elperello wrote: »
    There is a lot of conflation of the public and private lives of state employees in this thread.
    All citizens have a right to their private morality apart from their duty to the state.
    They don't mix well now and didn't in the past either.

    You are so right that they don't mix but it's just a fact they were totally entwined back then. A cousin of mine is a teacher in a small country school and she has two kids with a boyfriend. No one bats an eyelid (or if they do they keep it to themselves.) In the 80s she would have been out on her ear. Judging those times from where we are now would be like dropping a modern person back them. You can't mix the two imo.



    While I agree that those were different times I can’t agree that by1984 things hadn’t changed immensely. Lots of girls were keeping their children and raising them singlehanded or with a partner , without marrying.

    I lived with my boyfriend from the mid 70s, quite openly and we had a baby in 1979. I worked in a very public-facing role in a local authority and my circumstances were never an issue. After the birth I returned to work 8 weeks later and life continued as normal.
    People were very accepting and it was certainly possible to have a career and a child, without being married!

    We had as free a life as we wanted, the Church had no say or interference in it. Happiest years of our life really!
    You are right, of course. Things were changing and people were accepting. Yet, in the midst of this social change Ms. Moynihan was charged with bringing the force into disrepute for having a private life and getting pregnant as a result. She was continously brow beaten and bullied and pressured into giving up her child. The guards didn't want a single mother on the force. The father didn't want to partner her in brining up their child, it was marriage or nothing.


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    #215
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    Something that hasn’t been mentioned but women in the civil service had to resign when they got married.
    That only changed in the 90s right?
    So the institutional hardcore bias against women wasn’t just in the Gardaí. It was state policy.
    No, that changed in the 70s


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    #216
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    i mean

    if one were to acknowledge that the mores of the times were wrong

    but that the times were governed by those mores

    can everybody stop pretending that the other side has defended those times

    its is entirely correct to say that the rules existed. it was a very different ireland, but one which was nonetheless not an illegitimate state or anything, the citizens had their say as they do now.

    you cannot retrospectively legislate every case and, as someone else stated, constant focus on public apologies and retribution over what was past policy is not really a great use of government time, media focus or taxpayer assets.


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    #217
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I have the facts from here. She broke regulations and she is choosing to complain about them now.

    So you want me to be a 1950's style Priest? If that is your fantasy its not mine but carry on.

    Nah, you aren't a 1950's style priest.

    You are just a Guard defending the behaviour of the Guards.


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    #218
    morebarn2
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭morebarn2


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    Something that hasn’t been mentioned but women in the civil service had to resign when they got married.
    That only changed in the 90s right?
    So the institutional hardcore bias against women wasn’t just in the Gardaí. It was state policy.
    No, that changed in the 70s

    Yes the Marriage bar was removed around 1973 I think.


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    #219
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    I'd commiserate with Mrs Skooter to be if I thought for one second she was actually real.

    Dont worry I will send you a youtube link in September of our marriage. We are honeymooning in Vegas in January. Neither of us have been married before and neither of us have had kids. I have seen all this crap later on with illegitimate children and inheritance. All jockeying for position and trying to prove legitimacy. All the lesser cousins with their paternity tests and second marriages. Things were way simpler in the 1980's


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    #220
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Nah, you aren't a 1950's style priest.

    You are just a Guard defending the behaviour of the Guards.

    Not a guard and never was. Too smart for that.


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    #221
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    You are probably right. She should have been flogged too I suppose. That'd learn her.

    No I would just have her dismissed from training as she is unfit to complete it on medical grounds.


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    #222
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Sardonicat wrote: »
    I'd commiserate with Mrs Skooter to be if I thought for one second she was actually real.

    Dont worry I will send you a youtube link in September of our marriage. We are honeymooning in Vegas in January. Neither of us have been married before and neither of us have had kids. I have seen all this crap later on with illegitimate children and inheritance. All jockeying for position and trying to prove legitimacy. All the lesser cousins with their paternity tests and second marriages. Things were way simpler in the 1980's
    It's funny how you post more prolifically during the school holidays. Strange for a man who remembers the 80s so well and must be in his late 40s or early 50s. And still a Virgin too (now I have no problem believing that!)


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    #223
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Whilst I've every sympathy for her and acommon predicament of the time

    Is she looking for another tribunal and compensation? Is that the ultimate aim here?
    Fcuk that!


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    #224
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    Whilst I've every sympathy for her and common predicament of the time

    Is she looking for another tribunal and compensation? Is that the ultimate aim here?
    Fcuk that!
    She hasn't said that. I would be curious how many other women this happened to, though.


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    #225
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,126 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    She consciously chose to sign away her kid to keep her job, think about that for a second. The other guard knew this and didn't step up to the plate. Methinks guilt can sometimes be used to lash out rather than accept ones own deeds.

    I've recently connected with a brother I hadn't met until a few years ago. My mum put him up for adoption. I don't think any of us can judge the decisions these women had to make back then. It was a completely backwards place.


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    #226
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    It's funny how you post more prolifically during the school holidays. Strange for a man who remembers the 80s so well and must be in his late 40s or early 50s. And still a Virgin too (now I have no problem believing that!)

    I never said I was a virgin, just I have no wild oats. Maybe I have good memory and you are far out on the age too. Late 40's? Mrs Skooter to be is going to love this. If I remember the 1980's so well its because I was reading the paper at an early age and my father had me watching the 6 'o Clock News. As I always say I didnt know where Belfast, Baghdad and Beirut were but I knew what was going on there.

    I must have touched a nerve do you have a few little illegitimates you cant account for the father? Did you give out the goodies before you got a ring?


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    #227
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    No I would just have her dismissed from training as she is unfit to complete it on medical grounds.

    Out of curiosity, supposing the exact same thing happened nowadays. What would you do in that situation?


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    #228
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    Whilst I've every sympathy for her and acommon predicament of the time

    Is she looking for another tribunal and compensation? Is that the ultimate aim here?
    Fcuk that!

    Fupp it!!! Lets have a tribunal then and call up the barristers and solicitors. Put them all on the state pension. Lets give them all 800k and a blue medical card and what not. There is a magic crock of gold for all this crap.

    What about all the good Guards who served the state and their communities? Who kept the law ans regulations. I see nothing wrong done here by the state.


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    #229
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    She hasn't said that. I would be curious how many other women this happened to, though.

    It's a well trod path at this stage though with a recognizable playbook
    Cue a few outraged Dáil deputies in our minority government Dáil calling on one being the next step

    Batton down the hatches/purse strings

    I'd be telling them to go be..
    The moneys better spent on housing


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    #230
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Sardonicat wrote: »
    It's funny how you post more prolifically during the school holidays. Strange for a man who remembers the 80s so well and must be in his late 40s or early 50s. And still a Virgin too (now I have no problem believing that!)

    I never said I was a virgin, just I have no wild oats. Maybe I have good memory and you are far out on the age too. Late 40's? Mrs Skooter to be is going to love this. If I remember the 1980's so well its because I was reading the paper at an early age and my father had me watching the 6 'o Clock News. As I always say I didnt know where Belfast, Baghdad and Beirut were but I knew what was going on there.

    I must have touched a nerve do you have a few little illegitimates you cant account for the father?
    Wow! You need to get out of your mother's basement more. I'm sure she's very, very proud of you.


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    #231
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, supposing the exact same thing happened nowadays. What would you do in that situation?

    I am not a guard and I am not that familiar with garda regulations but you dont have to try to hard to get dismissed from training. Remember that guy about a year ago who was dismissed for being in an internet porno? I never heard the end of that but I imagine he had to go for bringing the force into disrepute. I would say there were other reason for dismissing him, this just seemed to be the fastest way. Does he deserve his own tribunal? Will judges have to act on the finding?


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    #232
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    If I remember the 1980's so well its because I was reading the paper at an early age and my father had me watching the 6 'o Clock News.

    Aye he had you reading the Irish Catholic and turned the sound down after the Angelus so he could rant about single mothers.


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    #233
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Wow! You need to get out of your mother's basement more. I'm sure she's very, very proud of you.

    Actually I moved out when I was 19 and went to college and moved away from home. Try again. So how many little delinquents am I funding belonging to you?


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    #234
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Aye he had you reading the Irish Catholic and turned the sound down after the Angelus so he could rant about single mothers.

    Nope the Irish Press.


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    #235
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I am not a guard and I am not that familiar with garda regulations but you dont have to try to hard to get dismissed from training. Remember that guy about a year ago who was dismissed for being in an internet porno? I never heard the end of that but I imagine he had to go for bringing the force into disrepute. I would say there were other reason for dismissing him, this just seemed to be the fastest way. Does he deserve his own tribunal? Will judges have to act on the finding?

    Astonishing, that's the first time I've seen someone draw an ethical correlation between being in a porno and having a child.

    Where will you take us next?


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    #236
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Nope the Irish Press.

    That doesn't surprise given the content of your posts.


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    #237
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I am not a guard and I am not that familiar with garda regulations but you dont have to try to hard to get dismissed from training. Remember that guy about a year ago who was dismissed for being in an internet porno? I never heard the end of that but I imagine he had to go for bringing the force into disrepute. I would say there were other reason for dismissing him, this just seemed to be the fastest way. Does he deserve his own tribunal? Will judges have to act on the finding?

    I'm guessing you aren't familiar with employment law, particularly laws in relation to pregnant employees?

    You can't dismiss/demote/punish in any way an employee for getting pregnant.

    There aren't such protections for persons who appear in pornos (unless they are pregnant). :)


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    #238
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Astonishing, that's the first time I've seen someone draw an ethical correlation between being in a porno and having a child.

    Where will you take us next?

    It is all the same in regulations, "Bringing the force into disrepute". Its not that she was having the child. She was having the child out of wedlock, while in the force and bringing the force into disrepute.

    Course she could have had it all given all the accommodations at the time. She just chose her own path.


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    #239
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Wow! You need to get out of your mother's basement more. I'm sure she's very, very proud of you.

    MOD Sardonicat, dont post in this thread again!!!!


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    #240
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I'm guessing you aren't familiar with employment law, particularly laws in relation to pregnant employees?

    You can't dismiss/demote/punish in any way an employee for getting pregnant.

    There aren't such protections for persons who appear in pornos (unless they are pregnant). :)

    She wasnt an employee, she was a trainee Garda. They are not subject to the same regulations. Big Difference. She was given opportunities and she didnt make smart decisions. I have made bad decisions too in my past but you dont hear me complain about them or want a state compensation.


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    #241
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,126 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Deleted User wrote: »
    i mean

    if one were to acknowledge that the mores of the times were wrong

    but that the times were governed by those mores

    can everybody stop pretending that the other side has defended those times

    its is entirely correct to say that the rules existed. it was a very different ireland, but one which was nonetheless not an illegitimate state or anything, the citizens had their say as they do now.

    you cannot retrospectively legislate every case and, as someone else stated, constant focus on public apologies and retribution over what was past policy is not really a great use of government time, media focus or taxpayer assets.

    Maybe not, but when the state or a group treated people atrociously then there needs to be at the very least an apology.

    We've seen this happen with the magdalene laundries. We've seen something similar when women were paid less by the civil service and forced to quit when they were married. The government apologised and in cases offered redress.

    the question to ask is whether the government acted badly. If they did, should they say sorry? And was there a financial lose to the person or at least physical/emotional harm that may need financial redress.


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