Journalism and cycling

Duckjob · 31-05-2019 9:36am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Bike lanes save lives of drivers as well as cyclists, study finds
Cars slow down and those behind wheel are more aware of surroundings in areas with good cycling infrastructure, research reveals

That doesn't surprise me in the least.

One of the principals of Vision Zero as employed in the Netherlands Denmark and elsewhere is that good infrastructure is self-enforcing in terms of speed limits and general good behavior.

That's why if you go to Amsterdam, you see cars generally driving in a much calmer manner in urban areas. it's not because there's police waiting around every corner to catch the loons (there aren't) , its because the whole infrastructure sends out the clear message that the area is for people first and a place where cars drivers are required to drive calmly and respectfully.

We have the polar opposite here - most of our infrastructure screams out - CARS FIRST! Which is why we have such a culture of selfish and self-entitled driving.

Rechuchote · 01-06-2019 12:07pm

Duckjob wrote: »

We have the polar opposite here - most of our infrastructure screams out - CARS FIRST! Which is why we have such a culture of selfish and self-entitled driving.

To the point where the dizzy guys at the OPW have it as their latest wacky plan to have lots of car parking in the Phoenix Park. Remember when they wanted to culvert the canals? A laugh a minute, those boys!

magicbastarder · 03-06-2019 1:51pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/fitness/the-gang-taking-over-the-streets-of-dublin-meet-the-bee-bandits-1.3908268

I can think of one bike shop with an obvious tie-in opportunity.

magicbastarder · 04-06-2019 12:45am

Cyclists can ride in middle of the lane, motorists told
Motorists will be reminded that cyclists have the legal right to ride in the middle of a lane if they need to.

The Road Safety Authority (RSA) confirmed that it would include information on “primary positioning” in a new copy of Rules of the Road, which will be published later this summer.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/cyclists-can-ride-in-middle-of-the-lane-motorists-told-x8dn3kfcz

Duckjob · 04-06-2019 10:08am

magicbastarder wrote: »

Cyclists can ride in middle of the lane, motorists told
Motorists will be reminded that cyclists have the legal right to ride in the middle of a lane if they need to.

The Road Safety Authority (RSA) confirmed that it would include information on “primary positioning” in a new copy of Rules of the Road, which will be published later this summer.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/cyclists-can-ride-in-middle-of-the-lane-motorists-told-x8dn3kfcz

I've criticised the RSA a lot in the past but fair play to them on this.

Would be nice if the gardai would row in with support on this as well.

Was reading a official garda document on road safety there yesterday and the part on cycling reads like it was written in the 1930s and never updated. Numerous references telling cyclists to "keep left" with no qualifiers or exceptions, no practical or safety reasons given why a cyclist might need to, and should not "keep left" in certain circumstances.

All in all, it reads suspicously like "keep in out of the way and don't be holding up real traffic". Even if that's not the intention, we all know thats how its going to be interpreted by a subset of motorists who let's say already have a particular mindset about "cyclists".

I'm sure the gardai can see this, but they sadly don't seem to be in any hurry to improve their outdated message.

Chips Lovell · 04-06-2019 10:40am

I don't know what this document says exactly, but generally speaking, "keep left" means "keep to the left hand side of the road". It doesn't necessarily mean ride within an inch of the ditch.

Duckjob · 04-06-2019 11:28am

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I don't know what this document says exactly, but generally speaking, "keep left" means "keep to the left hand side of the road". It doesn't necessarily mean ride within an inch of the ditch.

I know, and everyone *should* know what "keep left" means. I just think when applied to cycling if you say "keep left" without offering any more nuanced detail, people will (in some cases, willfully) misinterpret that to support the notion that a cyclist should always be over at the left side kerb and if a cyclist is in the middle of a lane they are being arrogant / breaking the rules etc etc.

Like many others here, I've lost count of the number of times I've had abuse like "You're in the middle of the f**kin road, you dickhead!" roared at me by taxi drivers and others when taking primary position in a lane, or even just preparing to turn right.

Ironically many of those that will misinterpret gardai telling cyclists to "kept left" are probably the same morons that insist on driving up the right hand lane of an empty motorway.

Cabaal · 04-06-2019 11:51am

Interesting changes in Amsterdam

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/04/unwelcome-guests-moped-riders-protest-as-amsterdam-drives-them-from-bike-lanes

Unwelcome guests: moped riders protest as Amsterdam drives them from bike lanes

Convoys of mopeds speed down Amsterdam’s bike lanes, beeping their horns and flouting their bare heads. This isn’t some strange Dutch festival, though. These were protests from some of the thousands of furious moped riders ahead of a new city regulation which came into force this week to force them out of bike lanes, on to main roads and into helmets.

The cycling city of Amsterdam is stepping up a gear – with plans to ban petrol and diesel vehicles from the centre by 2030, the removal of 10,000 car-parking spaces, a hike in parking charges and a wide range of measures to take from the car and give to pedestrians, cyclists, green space and children.

The move to ban them from bike lanes makes sense, but people always fight change

04-06-2019 12:29pm

Luas video of some not so near misses.

https://www.thejournal.ie/luas-accidents-near-misses-4666748-Jun2019/?utm_source=facebook_short&fbclid=IwAR0LvzCv5qtXh__cIYXHAAgdAuYVG8yyTJ0W_14cy0zUcIT5GLo1B6_Wtvk

tomasrojo · 04-06-2019 5:03pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Interesting changes in Amsterdam

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/04/unwelcome-guests-moped-riders-protest-as-amsterdam-drives-them-from-bike-lanes

The move to ban them from bike lanes makes sense, but people always fight change

My first experience of Dutch cycling infrastructure, years ago with my Dutch friend in Leiden, did involve what we call a moped nearly hitting us coming around a corner at speed.

Given the pedelec options available, I'm not sure there are that many people using them there as there used to be.

Seth Brundle · 08-06-2019 10:47pm

Irish hospitals treat one cyclist every three days for trauma injury on roads
Three-quarters of those injured were men and average age of patients was 44 years

Thinkingaboutit · 09-06-2019 12:30am

Rechuchote wrote: »

To the point where the dizzy guys at the OPW have it as their latest wacky plan to have lots of car parking in the Phoenix Park. Remember when they wanted to culvert the canals? A laugh a minute, those boys!

That plan really looks horrible.

tomasrojo · 09-06-2019 10:46am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Irish hospitals treat one cyclist every three days for trauma injury on roads
Three-quarters of those injured were men and average age of patients was 44 years

I'm not clear how bad these numbers are, as I'm not clear on what the total number of cyclists in Ireland is, what the average age of a cyclist in Ireland is, what percentage of cyclists in Ireland are men, what percentage of cyclists hospitalised are sports cyclists at time of injury, and so on.

For example, treating one cyclist every three days sounds quite bad, but what they really mean, I assume, is that they treat a little over a hundred cyclists a year on average. Which might be bad, but it depends on how bad the injury is, and also how many cyclists there are to begin with. If you assume about 250,000 cyclists in Ireland, it's (sort of) a 1 in 2000 chance of having to visit a hospital in a given year. Is that worse odds than, say, a pedestrian?

silverharp · 09-06-2019 11:03am

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'm not clear how bad these numbers are, as I'm not clear on what the total number of cyclists in Ireland is, what the average age of a cyclist in Ireland is, what percentage of cyclists in Ireland are men, what percentage of cyclists hospitalised are sports cyclists at time of injury, and so on.

For example, treating one cyclist every three days sounds quite bad, but what they really mean, I assume, is that they treat a little over a hundred cyclists a year on average. Which might be bad, but it depends on how bad the injury is, and also how many cyclists there are to begin with. If you assume about 250,000 cyclists in Ireland, it's (sort of) a 1 in 2000 chance of having to visit a hospital in a given year. Is that worse odds than, say, a pedestrian?

a girl at work who cycles in had a pedestrian walk out in front of her and she ended up with a fractured arm, so she is one of those stats. Annoying but didnt put her off cycling and no lasting damage.

tomasrojo · 09-06-2019 12:16pm

silverharp wrote: »

a girl at work who cycles in had a pedestrian walk out in front of her and she ended up with a fractured arm, so she is one of those stats. Annoying but didnt put her off cycling and no lasting damage.

All the same, that would put plenty of people off cycling, especially if it happened not long after they started.

rubadub · 09-06-2019 12:40pm

silverharp wrote: »

a girl at work who cycles in had a pedestrian walk out in front of her and she ended up with a fractured arm, so she is one of those stats.

Would a fractured arm be included in stats on "major trauma"?

Twelve of the cyclists died, all of whom had head injuries, according to Dr John Cronin, emergency medicine consultant at St Vincent’s University Hospital in Dublin.

Wearing a helmet was associated with a significantly reduced rate of head injury, he said. Some 27 per cent of cyclists wearing helmet had head injuries, against 52 per cent of those not wearing helmets.

I would be interested in how many who died were wearing helmets, and what is the average helmet usage per mile traveled.

AndrewJRenko · 09-06-2019 1:23pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Irish hospitals treat one cyclist every three days for trauma injury on roads
Three-quarters of those injured were men and average age of patients was 44 years

https://irishcycle.com/2019/06/08/medics-focusing-on-helmets-is-a-distraction-to-injury-prevention-and-population-health/

tomasrojo · 09-06-2019 1:29pm

rubadub wrote: »

I would be interested in how many who died were wearing helmets, and what is the average helmet usage per mile traveled.

5 wearing out of 12 fatalities, IIRC. This'll end up in the megathread territory quickly though.

tomasrojo · 09-06-2019 1:33pm

Wearing a helmet was associated with a significantly reduced rate of head injury, he said. Some 27 per cent of cyclists wearing helmet had head injuries, against 52 per cent of those not wearing helmets.

I wonder whether he's using "significantly" in the sense of "statistically significant". If so, I wonder where he got the background wearing rate(*) from: a study, RSA figures, or just looking at the wearing rate of people admitted with no head injuries.

The shortcomings of hospital-based studies in the first place come into it too, as mentioned in the Irish Cycle piece.

(*)Now I look at the phrasing, I don't think they're doing the usual case-control or quasi-case-control study of looking at helmet-wearing percentage among the head injured and comparing with the background rate of helmet wearing in the total population (or a proxy measure of this) to see if helmet-wearers are under-represented in those admitted with head injuries. They're dividing up the hospitalised cyclists into helmet-wearing or non-helmet-wearing and comparing percentages of those two groups with head injuries.

tomasrojo · 09-06-2019 2:48pm

I don't know how the total helmeted versus total non-helmeted numbers among the roughly 400 injured broke down, but if you treat it as 200 helmeted and 200 non-helmeted and do a chi-square analysis (way of comparing frequencies), it looks like clearly statistically significant outcome.

But those aren't the real figures. Also, all sorts of confounders in hospital studies, as the Irish Cycle link mentions. Also, not mentioned there, response bias among the non-head injured (feel they can get away with telling staff that they were wearing a helmet, avoiding guaranteed disapproval), which has been brought up as a problem before.

tomasrojo · 09-06-2019 2:54pm

A med. stat.s person on Twitter points out:
https://twitter.com/lycraolaoghaire/status/1137717388210839553
(1) of those presenting with any injury while cycling more wore helmets than not & (2) those wearing helmets who presented with injuries, had a LOWER rate of head injuries.

Which is consistent with
1) high background rate of helmet wearing, very effective against head injuries
or
2) Some people lie about helmet wearing to avoid disapproval (in the scenario where they feel they'll be believed)

magicbastarder · 09-06-2019 8:12pm

Women outline barriers to commuting by bike
The number of people commuting to work by bicycle increased by 44% between 2011 and 2017.

But despite the rise in popularity, women represent just one in four people who travel by bike.

The Dublin Cycling Campaign carried out research and spoke to a number of female cyclists about their experiences, to find out why women represent such a low proportion of those travelling on two wheels.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0609/1054355-cycling-women/

Fighting Tao · 09-06-2019 8:18pm

I am one of those stats too I think. Well if 2 weeks concussion are considered serious enough. I fell on a manhole on the luas tracks in the rain in 2015.

eeeee · 09-06-2019 8:21pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

Women outline barriers to commuting by bike
The number of people commuting to work by bicycle increased by 44% between 2011 and 2017.

But despite the rise in popularity, women represent just one in four people who travel by bike.

The Dublin Cycling Campaign carried out research and spoke to a number of female cyclists about their experiences, to find out why women represent such a low proportion of those travelling on two wheels.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0609/1054355-cycling-women/

Shouldn't they be talking to women who don't cycle for the answer to this? Those of us who do are only guessing really at what's putting everyone else off.

09-06-2019 9:28pm

I think it's women of a certain age too. I'd see a few on my travels but not nearly enough but rare I'd see any between say 12/13 and maybe mid 20's. I'd see plenty of boys / men of the same age though.

tomasrojo · 09-06-2019 9:29pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I am one of those stats too I think. Well if 2 weeks concussion are considered serious enough. I fell on a manhole on the luas tracks in the rain in 2015.

I think that counts alright! Sorry to hear that.

magicbastarder · 09-06-2019 9:32pm

nee wrote: »

Shouldn't they be talking to women who don't cycle for the answer to this? Those of us who do are only guessing really at what's putting everyone else off.

my wife being one. to cycle to work, she'd have to go through phibsborough, and down onto the quays; and with us living in a place served by five different bus routes, she's taken that option instead.

tomasrojo · 09-06-2019 9:36pm

That reminds me: the news reports only mention head injuries in the association with helmets, not serious head injuries. I don't know whether that means they didn't find much of an association for serious, or they're implying serious. There are an awful lot fewer serious head injuries than general head injuries though, so it's harder to find statistically significant associations.

Rechuchote · 10-06-2019 2:31pm

nee wrote: »

Shouldn't they be talking to women who don't cycle for the answer to this? Those of us who do are only guessing really at what's putting everyone else off.

But any woman who cycles constantly has conversations with other women who say "You're very brave to cycle, I'd be afraid to" and then gives their reasons - whether you want them or not.

Lumen · 10-06-2019 2:33pm

Rechuchote wrote: »

But any woman who cycles constantly has conversations with other women who say "You're very brave to cycle, I'd be afraid to" and then gives their reasons - whether you want them or not.

Eh, and men! Except they tend to phrase it differently.

Chips Lovell · 10-06-2019 2:41pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I am one of those stats too I think. Well if 2 weeks concussion are considered serious enough. I fell on a manhole on the luas tracks in the rain in 2015.

(Looks at dates). Me too!

eeeee · 10-06-2019 2:43pm

Rechuchote wrote: »

But any woman who cycles constantly has conversations with other women who say "You're very brave to cycle, I'd be afraid to" and then gives their reasons - whether you want them or not.

I don't.
It rarely comes up to be honest.
And as someone who cycles daily, races etc. I'm not qualified to speak on why women don't cycle.
Cos I cycle.
Should be reaching out to people who don't cycle for the answers... to why people don't cycle :pac:

Rechuchote · 10-06-2019 2:45pm

nee wrote: »

I don't.
It rarely comes up to be honest.
And as someone who cycles daily, races etc. I'm not qualified to speak on why women don't cycle.
Cos I cycle.
Should be reaching out to people who don't cycle for the answers... to why people don't cycle :pac:

I've also spent a little time canvassing people on particular streets about how they feel about cycling infrastructure - this is an answer I get all the time.

eeeee · 10-06-2019 2:52pm

Rechuchote wrote: »

I've also spent a little time canvassing people on particular streets about how they feel about cycling infrastructure - this is an answer I get all the time.

My point is that if they want to find out why people don't cycle, they need to ask people who don't cycle, not those who do.

voluntary · 10-06-2019 2:56pm

I started cycling recently. Far too many car/bus/taxi drivers do not respect the 1.5 meters distance rule. Not sure what could be done about this but start driving to close to cyclists in Europe and you start collecting fines and penalty points. Irish traffic rules enforcement ignores the issue.

voluntary · 10-06-2019 2:58pm

nee wrote: »

My point is that if they want to find out why people don't cycle, they need to ask people who don't cycle, not those who do.

1. Safety concerns.
2. ****ty weather most of the time.

Two biggest concerns on top of a regular laziness.

Rechuchote · 10-06-2019 2:59pm

People who don't cycle also think it's more vigorous than it is and that you need to be strong and sturdy.

CramCycle · 10-06-2019 3:00pm

Rechuchote wrote: »

But any woman who cycles constantly has conversations with other women who say "You're very brave to cycle, I'd be afraid to" and then gives their reasons - whether you want them or not.

I would disagree for at least a portion of people, some people, don't want to cycle, it has nothing to do with infrastructure, weather or anything else, they simply do not want to do it as part of their routine. Something many campaigns fail to accept. I had a drawn out conversation with a close friend on this, about the reasons he doesn't cycle,he used to as a teenager and kid but stopped. He says he can see the benefits but then started listing the reasons he wouldn't. In the end, he turned to me and said, listen, I just don't want too, I never realised but it's just not for me. He even believed his reasons until I explained why they were pretty poor excuses and he came to the realisation that he simply did not want to cycle and that was that. This does not apply to everyone but it applies to more than many campaigners are willing to accept.

Rechuchote wrote: »

I've also spent a little time canvassing people on particular streets about how they feel about cycling infrastructure - this is an answer I get all the time.

And its another fair point. From a personal perspective, I don't give a sh1t about cycling infrastructure, it doesn't help me, it is often not even close to what I would like, and the problem is, what I would like is not what most people campaign for. I don't want segregation, I don't want separate lanes or lights or anything else. I am happy with infrastructure the way it is, I just want either respect or the long arm of the law to come done full whack on assh*ts but the infrastructure thing means nothing to me and probably never will. I see the benefit of it, and happily support it for others if asked but in reality I don't care or want it, I already cycle as much of the time as is possible for me. All more infrastructure does is create the impression I should be somewhere else and increase anger towards me when I am not far off the speed limit in a place I am legally allowed to be.

Grassey · 10-06-2019 3:07pm

voluntary wrote: »

I started cycling recently. Far too many car/bus/taxi drivers do not respect the 1.5 meters distance rule. Not sure what could be done about this but start driving to close to cyclists in Europe and you start collecting fines and penalty points. Irish traffic rules enforcement ignores the issue.

There isn't a 'rule' yet
Just back from 2 weeks in France, drivers there (in general) made Irish drivers look like paragons of space giving on the roads! That was typically on the main roads though with plenty of sketchy overtaking. In the towns everyone was much more relaxed.

hesker · 10-06-2019 3:17pm

CramCycle wrote: »

From a personal perspective, I don't give a sh1t about cycling infrastructure, it doesn't help me, it is often not even close to what I would like, and the problem is, what I would like is not what most people campaign for. I don't want segregation, I don't want separate lanes or lights or anything else. I am happy with infrastructure the way it is, I just want either respect or the long arm of the law to come done full whack on assh*ts but the infrastructure thing means nothing to me and probably never will. I see the benefit of it, and happily support it for others if asked but in reality I don't care or want it, I already cycle as much of the time as is possible for me. All more infrastructure does is create the impression I should be somewhere else and increase anger towards me when I am not far off the speed limit in a place I am legally allowed to be.

That sums up my position exactly.

Don’t need to spend millions on infrastructure where a bit of periodic law enforcement would solve 99% of my issues.

voluntary · 10-06-2019 3:17pm

CramCycle wrote: »

some people, don't want to cycle, it has nothing to do with infrastructure, weather or anything else, they simply do not want to do it as part of their routine. Something many campaigns fail to accept.

No money can buy more sunny days and less rain/wind. If you cycle to work on a nice morning you never know if you will cycle back home on a nice evening as well. And then, how many nice morning do we enjoy?

Then you finaly decide to get on that bike regardless of the uncomfortable weather, just to realize every cycle is basically a fight for your life, so unless we have safe cycle paths then majority of regular people won't ever bother. It's simply too dangerous.

meeeeh · 10-06-2019 3:41pm

Something that might be relevant is that Irish women are expected to wear more make up than especially women in countries where cycling is more prominent. Lower density means schools are further away and it's more awkward to get kids to school.

I run between 25-30k per week ofren before the work. On top of that I take dog on 4km walk most days in the week and cycle with kids. I could easily cycle to work but I have absolutely no desire to. I'm not prepared to adopt my clothing, it's easier and safer to drop kids to school with the car and I can wear high heels. Cycling to work is just too much hassle for me.

However me being lazy or not fit enough is definitely not the reason.

Hurrache · 10-06-2019 3:45pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Something that might be relevant is that Irish women are expected to wear more make up than especially women in countries where cycling is more prominent.

I know this is posted by a women, but I find this completely bizarre. Who expects women to wear make up, never mind a certain amount of it?

meeeeh · 10-06-2019 3:51pm

Hurrache wrote: »

I know this is posted by a women, but I find this completely bizarre. Who expects women to wear make up, never mind a certain amount of it?

Irish women wear way more make up than women in a lot of continental countries. There will be some companies which will advise on make up but even without that it's one of those things that it's just done.

Mickiemcfist · 10-06-2019 3:53pm

voluntary wrote: »

Then you finaly decide to get on that bike regardless of the uncomfortable weather, just to realize every cycle is basically a fight for your life, so unless we have safe cycle paths then majority of regular people won't ever bother. It's simply too dangerous.

Yea I took up cycling to work because there's a cycle lane the entire way in, I wouldn't have otherwise. Now I'd cycle anywhere, but starting out - the segregated cycle path was a lot less daunting.

Hurrache · 10-06-2019 3:56pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Irish women wear way more make up than women in a lot of continental countries. There will be some companies which will advise on make up but even without that it's one of those things that it's just done.

Very odd, maybe it's related to your career path or something but it's not something my wife or I ever encountered outside of aviation/some retail/customer facing.

meeeeh · 10-06-2019 4:06pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Very odd, maybe it's related to your career path or something but it's not something my wife or I ever encountered outside of aviation/some retail/customer facing.

I think you are not getting what I'm trying to say. I'm not claiming Irish women are oppressed into wearing more make up but if you live in a country where majority wear make (or more make up than in othee countries) you will a lot more likely wear make up. And I can guarantee you that many women would rather ditch the cycling than not use make up especially when raining. (I'm not being judgemental because clothing and make up are among the reasons why you won't see me cycling to work).

silverharp · 10-06-2019 4:15pm

does twitter count as Journalism :pac:

https://twitter.com/SafeCyclingEire/status/1137780548603142144

Rechuchote · 10-06-2019 4:16pm

hesker wrote: »

Don’t need to spend millions on infrastructure where a bit of periodic law enforcement would solve 99% of my issues.

As they say in Tipp, I'll be waitin'…

voluntary wrote: »

No money can buy more sunny days and less rain/wind. If you cycle to work on a nice morning you never know if you will cycle back home on a nice evening as well. And then, how many nice morning do we enjoy?

Then you finaly decide to get on that bike regardless of the uncomfortable weather, just to realize every cycle is basically a fight for your life, so unless we have safe cycle paths then majority of regular people won't ever bother. It's simply too dangerous.

This is an attitude that stems from the notion that Ireland is particularly rainy. The west may be rainier, but in Dublin anyway, there are few days in the year that have heavy rain.

07Lapierre · 10-06-2019 4:20pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I think you are not getting what I'm trying to say. I'm not claiming Irish women are oppressed into wearing more make up but if you live in a country where majority wear make (or more make up than in othee countries) you will a lot more likely wear make up. And I can guarantee you that many women would rather ditch the cycling than not use make up especially when raining. (I'm not being judgemental because clothing and make up are among the reasons why you won't see me cycling to work).

Totally understand this. I think better cycling infrastructure would go a long way to getting more people to cycle. Also, having to wear cycling specific clothing, helmets etc. is a big disincentive to a lot of people.

Have a look at this video. it shows people (as opposed to "Cyclists") using bikes to get from A to B, as it's the most convenient and easiest option.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpi01x_DgDY

Journalism and cycling

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