Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

what_traffic wrote: »

https://connachttribune.ie/homeowners-weigh-up-ring-roads-impact-121/
"
A public meeting has been arranged for communities impacted by the proposed new Galway City Ring Road project.

Galway County Councillor Tomás Ó Curraoin is organising the meeting, which will be held in Barna Golf Club next Thursday, November 29, at 7.30pm.
"

This meeting is on tonight. I say there will be a good number of people at this from all over the City. 50+ homes directly affected by the proposed Galway City Ring Road

no.8 wrote: »

You cannot just assume building roads and commuting ever further to distant McMansions is the answer.

It's not the answer, but it's what Irish people want, and why they keep voting for politicians who will deliver exactly this.

Think about it - everybody wins. The farmer who sells the site wins. Families who want "country living" and large back gardens for their kids win. So much winning!

Except of course when they realise that, having moved to the country, there is no broadband! The roads are sh1tty and there is no bus service! They have to drive everywhere including to their jobs in the cities!

And then, when they get to the ourskirts of the city, they and everyone else who is doing exactly the same thing, get stuck in gridlock.

So, the solution is to build more roads. It's simple, you see

So go away with your fancy-pants European notion of "planning". This is Ireland, and we're having none of that nonsense here ...

[quote="youngrun;108759187" The blindlingly obvious way of reducing car dependency within city is high frequency buses, cross city buses, park and rides and more trains in and out the Athenry/Oranmore etc line.
Why is this not been done?
.
..
any help most welcome on above qs[/quote]

A logical approach, but need to follow the money.
Who is making money put of the current situation?

terrarev wrote: »

Regarding the Athenry/Oranmore line, even making existing services more affordable would improve things.
I just checked there and a return journey from Athenry to Galway is €12. That is encouraging next to nobody onto the train. If it was setup properly it would be a great way to get people from that hinterland into the city centre without using their car.

It’s too much.a fiver return and them trains would be packed.tea and a sandwich on the train is about a tenner.return from Galway to Dublin is about 50 euro.in England you could travel that distance for 10-12 pounds.good old paddy Irishman loves a good rip off though
The train to limerick is the greatest joke going.a glorified 2 carriage budgie box carrying about 3 people.its an insult to car drivers having to stop at crossings to leave the budgie box across

Doctors room ghost wrote:

It’s too much.a fiver return and them trains would be packed.tea and a sandwich on the train is about a tenner.return from Galway to Dublin is about 50 euro.in England you could travel that distance for 10-12 pounds.good old paddy Irishman loves a good rip off though The train to limerick is the greatest joke going.a glorified 2 carriage budgie box carrying about 3 people.its an insult to car drivers having to stop at crossings to leave the budgie box across

Not true. Lived in England and crazy expensive trains. At least in the the South East. You can get a deal if you buy it upfront or for certain times like a flight ticket deals but otherwise very expensive and not very different from Irish Rail.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The image is to demonstrate the PT and cycling is very efficient use of road space.

Why are there no buses crossing the Quincentenial Bridge? Maybe there is a question to ask before a new bridge for cars is built.

It's very common for people who want to assert the supremacy of private cars and denigrate the value of public transport/active travel to focus on their own travel preferences and commuting patterns.

Of far greater importance is the potential for modal switch at population level, and the increase in infrastructure efficiency that modal shift would bring about. That's is what is happening in Dublin with Bus Connects, for example. The consultants who designed the plan point out the benefits accruing at population level, while objectors, populist politicians and uncritical journalists focus on individual examples of discommoded or disgruntled commuters.

There ought to be an orbital bus route in place. Commuters have being demanding such a service for years, the Council was actually planning such a route, and the National Transport Authority granted a licence (in 2012).

Why has it not proceeded? Politics, that's why.

As Marno21 declared earlier, there would be "civil unrest" if a lane on the Quincentenary bridge was repurposed for a bus lane. Since around 70% of Galway commuters drive alone in their cars (it's 90% in Parkmore) and politicians only care about the votes they're going to get in the next election, the political focus is on keeping drivers happy, regardless of the greater good.

Likewise the vested interests (eg construction industry, property developers, land speculators and the like) are only interested in road building and its various lucrative spin-offs.

The costs of public transport are mainly in wages. Painting a bus lane on the Q Bridge would cost next to nothing, but investing in schemes for anyone other than car commuters butters no parsnips in Parlon Country.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just consider that the Bothar Na dTreabh was built, it was to be a bypass, fitted with a sequence of useful roudabouts given names of the twelve tribes of Galway. When they caused gridlock, they were (well some were) replaced with traffic light controlled junctions that caused gridlock.

Now, this is not just a Galway problem because when Limerick built a bypass, Childers Road, it was a single carriageway road with roundabouts and gridlock. It was what was the latest solution at the time - cheap low cost non-solutions.

Now Limerick has a good Motorway bypass that solves the problem. Unfortunately, it is a bit short as it should go all the way to Cork. Unfortunately, Galway got a Motorway bypass that was 20 km too far East of the city. Now having had a few goes at solving this, they are to build a new one too far West. If Bothar Na dTreadbh was made grade separated, with a new bridge across the Corrib, it could remove the problem.

If access to the west of the city was easy coming from the M17/M18, then the traffic would avoid Claregalway.

Public transport has to be offered in a realistic way if it is expected that the car drivers and their passengers will use it. It has to be provided in as a frequent, reliable, and low cost solution that matches the users requirement. Building more roads does none of these things.

There is some rationale behind the routing of the Tuam-Limerick motorway, in that the new motorway does what a road should do very well - support regional travel. If you are driving from Tuam to Dublin or Tuam towards the South, the old routing of the former N17 doesn't serve you very well by dragging you towards Galway city when you don't need to be there. The routing of the new M17 probably shortens a lot of journeys. Besides, it was never intended to solve all the problems of the region on its own. Claregalway may need an inner bypass in it's own right at some point.

Also I'm not sure how the proposed bypass would be "too far West", as t looks like it runs from the current N6 to a point West of the Corrib river to get out of the city, what do you mean exactly by too far to the West.

I'd also be interested to read your suggestions for the current stroads. Can they be made into roads? Feel free to get out the crayons and suggest how you'd grade separate Bothar na dTreabh, where the new bridge would be, how you'd connect it to the existing roads.

Ruhanna wrote: »

Come back in a few years time when you have a mature contribution to make.

I did. Your suggestion was to put all the through traffic onto buses and bicycles. You've even suggested reducing the existing QB 4 lane stroad to 1 lane each way for people in cars. No accommodation whatsoever for people who need to get through the city but have no business in the city (i.e. like a bypass), in fact you propose to make through journeys harder. Your position sounds extremist and I pointed that out.

youngrun wrote: »

It seems set to continue, given the huge number of planning permissions for houses in commuter towns eg Barna 200 odd , Moycullen, Headford etc . Limited public transport. Car only option.
Almost no upward building in city residentially , maybe its unviable unless with a bigger scheme like Barrett Ceannt one. Surely theres a case for government support eg tax breaks or similar to encourage city living and building up on city or private land

Like the Irish school system that is a disjointed mess, Irish apartments are also quite poor quality. From what I understand, if you are unlucky enough to live in one, you can expect to hear everything that goes on in your neighbours apartment and vice-versa. Does your neighbour have bowel trouble? If they do, you'll know, because you'll be able to hear every detail of their ... movements ... from your apartment. It's not as bad as China, but for the most part an Irish apartment is the kind of place a lot of people wouldn't fancy trying to make a life. This is both rational and entirely OK. Which is why I support more trains to satellite towns, P&R and so on. No reason people can't live in houses and drive/cycle/bus whatever a short journey to a P&R stop for the rest of their commute. We simply don't have the population density that we have to have apartments (although Dublin is getting there, sadly :mad:).

The blindlingly obvious way of reducing car dependency within city is high frequency buses, cross city buses, park and rides and more trains in and out the Athenry/Oranmore etc line.

True, a lot of this would help. No-one here is disputing that.

Ruhanna wrote: »

It's very common for people who want to assert the supremacy of private cars and denigrate the value of public transport/active travel to focus on their own travel preferences and commuting patterns.

My daily commute involves a Dublin train.

As Marno21 declared earlier, there would be "civil unrest" if a lane on the Quincentenary bridge was repurposed for a bus lane.

Yes, because it would make through traffic far worse. It would at best be a trade-off. It would indeed be easier to get around the city by bus/bicycle what have you, but through journeys like Oughterard-Roscommon (as above) would be an even bigger nightmare than they are today. Galway has built a grand total of something like one bridge in the last 100 years or so? It's not like any group is over-provided for there.

Likewise the vested interests (eg construction industry, property developers, land speculators and the like) are only interested in road building and its various lucrative spin-offs.

This isn't mid-20th century America. And Parlon Country is Co. Laois, IIRC?

Ruhanna wrote: »

In Ireland, road-building is typically conceived as a precursor to new development, and new development is typically based on access by private car.

Consider these three Ps: precedent, PR and politics.

Precedent is the most obvious, because we've been here already. The existing N6 was planned as a ring road around the city, but the Council ruined it by giving "planning" permission for large traffic-generating developments all around it, including huge areas of surface car parking. All low density, massively wasteful of valuable urban real estate and hugely damaging to the viability of public transport.

The M50 is another example of the way we use bypasses in Ireland. Need we go into details?

Additional precedents include other towns and cities that were bypassed and which subsequently saw a rise in the total number of car trips and in modal share for driving. If that is an incorrect assessment, can you name any bypassed town in Ireland that has experienced a decreased modal share for driving and an increased modal share for public transport, cycling and walking? If there is one it would be good to know, because it would make an interesting and informative study.

PR is either (a) the promotion of the long-demanded "bypass" (now called a ring road or expressway) on the basis that it will make more development possible, or (b) promotion of development on the basis of its proximity to the proposed new road.

Phrases such as "open up" and "free up" are typically used in this context. That's what the pro-bypass lobby were seeking from the very beginning, and it's what they still want now:

“The Galway City Outer Bypass would significantly alleviate the chronic traffic congestion problems in the city. It would also open up development opportunities for both the city and county which in turn would attract additional investment and employment opportunities,” CIF said in its pre-budget submission seen by the Galway City Tribune.

Note that the CIF is still using the old GCOB terminology, while carrying the old ideas forward into their inevitable recommendations for yet more road building. They have learned nothing, and they have forgotten nothing.

In fact the CIF are unabashedly just picking up where they left off after the economic crash and the demise of the fatally-flawed GCOB project:

“The city badly needs to build the Galway City Outer Ring road. Currently, traffic crisscrosses the city creating major traffic congestion. The Galway City Outer Ring road would relieve this traffic congestion, while at the same time open up much-needed lands for residential, commercial and industrial development that would help to service the needs of the city into the future.”

Source: https://constructionnews.ie/regional-development-ireland

As an example of promotion of development on the basis of its proximity to the proposed new road, here's some PR from Bannon, one of the largest commercial property consultancies in Ireland, advertising the "Gateway Shopping Park" as being "only 400 metres from the proposed M6 Galway Bypass".

Here's another:

"Without doubt, one of the highest profile sites to come to the market in Galway in recent times, the property is strategically placed with easy access to Galway city centre and the main traffic arteries to and from the city. All access points to the city are close by with the N6 link road 2kms away."

Source: http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/101299/high-profile-development-lands-in-rahoon-now-for-sale

Finally, for now, there's the political perspective. Irish local and national politicians typically see road-building as a way to "open up" towns, cities and regions for more development.

http://clarechampion.ie/work-to-start-next-year-on-e550m-gort-to-tuam-motorway
https://www.limerickpost.ie/2015/06/18/new-road-to-open-up-irelands-biggest-cul-de-sac
http://wicklowvoice.ie/6802/

They're not building railways with the same speed and enthusiasm, so the result in almost all cases is car-dependent sprawl. What are motorways for but to make more driving more easy?

And here it is from the horse's mouth, so to speak: no less a person than the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar says that the proposed ring road will "free up other parts of the city for further development."

Link: https://connachttribune.ie/listen-leo-varadkar-on-galway-traffic-health-and-councils-no-confidence-motion/

Fantasticly put. I could not agree with you more.

what_traffic wrote: »

The problem with this notion is that the CAR traffic does NOT want to stay out of the City. If ring road is built still cannot see the vast majority of the CURRENT N6 been used for public transport. Kirwin to the Deane Roundabout section perhaps;but that would be about the MAX of it.

Two problems with this, First, you're assuming that no-one ever wants to go West of the Corrib to places like Oughterard, Clifden etc. Ever. That's the only reason not to build a bypass - that there is no legitimate traffic going through Galway stroads to get around the region. Though we can debate the numbers, we can safely assume this is false.

Furthermore, I often see the word "cars" being used as though they were the object of the thing being disputed. The problem with this is that cars don't go places by themselves, for their own reasons. If they did, I'd have to lock up my car each night for fear that it might decide to try its luck with that hot young pink Mercedes down the street (though with its ratty paint job I doubt it would have much luck )

When some people talk about cars, and car traffic, they're talking about people driving their cars, and people stuck in traffic. Not just cars. To be polite, it seems that some posters attacking "cars" is a form of terminological inexactitude. Whether intentional or not I don't know, but it might be a way to mask a desire not to control "cars," (because despite hints to the contrary, cars do not yet have minds of their own) but to control the people in the cars.

And as for the idea that everyone in Galway wants to replicate Los Angeles in the 1950s, that idea is countered by the fact that car sales are down in the region, and that developers continue to apply for planning permission for apartment blocks in the city. Clearly, what is being sought by the local people is support for a range of lifestyles, including people who want to live in a city and accept the tradeoffs of spending hundreds of thousands of euro to live in a crappy apartment, and those who want to avoid some of the downsides of things like apartment living and should be supported by buses, trains, park and ride from regional suburbs etc. Both which are perfectly fine.

Obsessive one-dimensional rants about how you want to control "cars" isn't going to help any of that.

The galway outer bypass in 2025

what_traffic wrote: »

NOT a bypass.

Ring roads serve the function of bypasses, though sometimes it is less clear that they are so.

Ring roads, or bypasses or whatever, are also not the same as "Distributor" roads, those serve an entirely different function.

Building the "ring road" or whatever it is called, will allow people to get from the East of the country to get to points West of the Corrib river without driving on city streets. The current N6 is not suitable for either short haul city usage or long distance through usage.

At any rate, why is the road going so deep below the surface? I thought some of the route was going "cut and cover?"