Hybrid Drive of ICR 22000 Fleet

bk · 29-11-2018 11:00am #1

The government has just announced 15 million funding for hybrid drives for the ICR fleet:

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/climate-action/topics/climate-action-fund/call-for-applications/first-call-2018/project-assessments/Pages/default.aspx

Anyone have any idea what that is about?

Battery hybrid?

Also seemingly trails of alternative fuel buses to start in Cork and Dublin net week!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/electric-car-charging-network-one-of-seven-projects-to-share-77m-climate-action-fund-888456.html

For those interested, a lot of other and interesting environmental projects too. Finally an extensive EV car charging network. Street lighting to be converted to LED, etc.

EDIT: A bit more:

Irish Rail: Hybrid Drive for Inter City Railcar fleet Up to €15 million is being invested to design new hybrid power-packs for intercity railcars to reduce diesel use and greenhouse gas emissions. Following the proof of concept in one three car train, the hybrid power-packs will be implemented across the wider fleet.

And the buses sound like they will be natural gas models:

a grant scheme to support circa 74 compressed natural gas vehicles.

bk · 29-11-2018 11:15am

Ah, a lot more info about it here:

https://www.mtu-report.com/Rail/Railcars/Hybrid-drives-for-the-Emerald-Isle

Sounds really good. Basically hybrid drive like you get in a Prius. Breaking recharges the battery.

They are talking about 33% fuel reductions. And it can even run fully in battery only mode in urban areas and around stations, leading to 75% reduction in noise and a big reduction in NOX and particulates emissions around stations. Nice.

goingnowhere · 29-11-2018 11:37am

Old news was announced in September

Lots of PR crap from Kildare street, Irish Rail has no involvement in the design or research thats all MTU work, they simply unbolt the current engine raft and put the new one in.

bk · 29-11-2018 11:53am

goingnowhere wrote: »

Old new was announced in September

Lots of PR crap from Kildare street, Irish Rail has no involvement in the design or research thats all MTU work, they simply unbolt the current engine raft and put the new one in.

Ah, I hadn't come across it. Some of the stuff announced is definitely new. The EV charging network is big news in that community and very welcome as is lighting etc.

Not surprised it is all the manufacturer, that is the way of the world now. Manufacturers looking after and upgrading systems is the norm now, Boeing, Airbus, Rolls Royce engines, Alstom Luas, Wrights DB, etc.

Sounds like the ICR's were built in a modular manner for relatively easy upgrade. That is good.

Jamie2k9 · 29-11-2018 1:12pm

bk wrote: »

Sounds like the ICR's were built in a modular manner for relatively easy upgrade. That is good.

Luck rather than IE competence!

cgcsb · 29-11-2018 4:02pm

Sounds very promising. Still loads of work needed to electrify greater Dublin, which is 70 years beyond due.

The proposed district heating system for Dublin Docklands/Ringsend and Tallaght are very interesting, would be great to see this happen. I'd also suggest a similar scheme should be considered for the Guiness factory and the west of the City especially as our natural gas resources become scarce.

I still think there isn't nearly enough effort being put into electricity production. We're hardly using any of our offshore wind, tidal and wave resources at presents. Lough Foyle seems an ideal candidate for a tidal power but government isn't interested.

bk · 29-11-2018 5:10pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I still think there isn't nearly enough effort being put into electricity production. We're hardly using any of our offshore wind, tidal and wave resources at presents. Lough Foyle seems an ideal candidate for a tidal power but government isn't interested.

While of course there is still loads to do, in fairness, massive strides have already been made in this area and continue.

In the last 20 years, the amount of CO2 per Megawatt produced has halved!

We have gone from well over 50% of our electricity being produced by coal, to almost 0% over the last 6 months *

Renewables have gone to low single figures to over 30% now and regularly hit 50% overnight (important as most EV's are charged overnight).

The announcement of the closure of the Peat power plants is great, long overdue news and hopefully Moneypoint will be next.

* There seems to be something really interesting going on the last few months, strictly speaking Moneypoint is still open, but it has been producing only low single digits and often 0% over the last few months, almost like unofficially is is already closed.

You are of course lots more to do. An interconnector to French Nuclear should allow for a lot more wind to be brought online.

bk · 29-11-2018 5:16pm

Interestingly right now, renewables (mostly wind) are at 50.67%, not surprising given how windy it is at the moment.

But even over the past month they have been 40%, pretty nice

Coal just 3.6%

cgcsb · 29-11-2018 6:10pm

I'd like to see Moneypoint converted to nuclear in the near future, and I think that's what the ESB want also. It'd give us security of supply instead of depending on French nuclear and it'd help address the impending boom in data centres, EVs and electric trains. Not to mention a future move to medium/high speed intercity. But considering the uproar over the last planned nuclear station in Wexford, I think it'd be difficult politically, the public aren't educated enough.

bk · 29-11-2018 6:34pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd like to see Moneypoint converted to nuclear in the near future, and I think that's what the ESB want also. It'd give us security of supply instead of depending on French nuclear and it'd help address the impending boom in data centres, EVs and electric trains. Not to mention a future move to medium/high speed intercity. But considering the uproar over the last planned nuclear station in Wexford, I think it'd be difficult politically, the public aren't educated enough.

I'd love that too, but realistically Ireland is too small for one conventional Nuclear plant. As in one plant would almost power the whole country, but then you'd have a single point of failure.

Perhaps in future some of the alternative designs for small reactors (pebble bed, etc.) will work out and that would be more suitable for us.

In the meantime the plan is for a 700MW interconnector to that lovely French Nuclear power. That is a more reasonable approach to using Nuclear power for the moment.

I think the plan for Moneypoint now is too convert it to biomass or maybe natural gas. Though with the increase in wind, it is looking like we might just not need it anymore. The ESB have already completely written it off their books financially.

Carawaystick · 29-11-2018 10:18pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Lough Foyle seems an ideal candidate for a tidal power but government isn't interested.

The brits claim they own it to the Donegal shore

ax586 · 29-11-2018 11:45pm

bk wrote: »

The government has just announced 15 million funding for hybrid drives for the ICR fleet:

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/climate-action/topics/climate-action-fund/call-for-applications/first-call-2018/project-assessments/Pages/default.aspx

Anyone have any idea what that is about?

Battery hybrid?

Also seemingly trails of alternative fuel buses to start in Cork and Dublin net week!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/electric-car-charging-network-one-of-seven-projects-to-share-77m-climate-action-fund-888456.html

For those interested, a lot of other and interesting environmental projects too. Finally an extensive EV car charging network. Street lighting to be converted to LED, etc.

EDIT: A bit more:

And the buses sound like they will be natural gas models:

Go-Ahead won a tender to trail buses six weeks in Dublin and six weeks in cork..there was a notice in the garage looking for drivers to do the trails it will be all done during the night..I’ll get more info on Saturday

cgcsb · 30-11-2018 12:53pm

bk wrote: »

I'd love that too, but realistically Ireland is too small for one conventional Nuclear plant. As in one plant would almost power the whole country, but then you'd have a single point of failure.

Perhaps in future some of the alternative designs for small reactors (pebble bed, etc.) will work out and that would be more suitable for us.

In the meantime the plan is for a 700MW interconnector to that lovely French Nuclear power. That is a more reasonable approach to using Nuclear power for the moment.

I think the plan for Moneypoint now is too convert it to biomass or maybe natural gas. Though with the increase in wind, it is looking like we might just not need it anymore. The ESB have already completely written it off their books financially.

There are a number of designs for small nuclear reactors, even as small as 300MW. Moneypoint can currently produce up to a GW, so building in that capacity wouldn't be a total oversupply, and we can always export.
We need to baseload with something and wind+grid storage just can't provide that baseload yet.

Electricity from biomass burning is an environmental disaster if you ask me. You'd be clearing forests in other countries, moving the wood to Ireland under diesel power and then burning it in massive amounts.

cgcsb · 30-11-2018 12:54pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

The brits claim they own it to the Donegal shore

fe(k them, what are they gonna do. Besides Eirgrid-ESB are basically running the show in NI anyway.

loyatemu · 30-11-2018 1:12pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

The brits claim they own it to the Donegal shore

maybe a joint project? after all we're all Europeans

Gael23 · 30-11-2018 10:44pm

Don’t suppose there’s a chance of a fare reduction with the fuel saving?

EdgeCase · 01-12-2018 11:57am

Seems like a relatively slow project. We should be working very much faster to get the CO2 emissions down.

They need to do something about the Diesel commuter DMUs too and probably buy some more efficient locomotives for the Cork and Belfast push-pull sets.

L1011 · 01-12-2018 12:11pm

They are dithering about re-engineing the 201s at the moment

EdgeCase · 01-12-2018 12:29pm

They'd arguably be better off just buying new ones with better efficiency, new mechanical components and better aerodynamics and aesthetics while they're at it to future proof for 200km/h.

They're going to be 30+ years old by the time this dithering is over.

I'd say any EU funding for the Enterprise is in massive doubt now too with a possible hard Brexit and NI leaving. There won't be any more TEN-T projects from that point on.

goingnowhere · 01-12-2018 2:51pm

The MTU tech was only announced in Sept, 30% saving in fuel is huge, but its too good so there has to be an evaluation period to prove the tech works, is reliable and delivers.

The new lower emissions engine is pretty much just a cleaner version of the current, there is a new gearbox as well as the hybrid bits, a lot of risk and the railway environment is notorious for breaking parts that work fine elsewhere

The only route even remotely suitable for 200kph is Dublin Cork which already has a fleet of 200kph capable coaches, most of the others are still 120kph

EdgeCase · 01-12-2018 4:25pm

The coaches are designed to be 200km/h capable, but to do that they need their extra brakes fitted and 200km/h capable locomotives which are something IE do not own.

Having intercity trains running at the same speed as motorway traffic at best, and often slower, is an absolute joke in this day and age. It's no wonder they're being beaten by busses and cars on most routes.

Jamie2k9 · 01-12-2018 4:27pm

MK IV will never do 200km in Ireland. Cost way to much to bring them up to spec that a new fleet will be cheaper.

EdgeCase · 01-12-2018 6:56pm

I'm not sure why that would be the case as they're already built with that change in mind. It's just a matter of adding an extra disc brake on the axels, which is part of their design. It's not a retrofit or major modification. The expensive bit would be sourcing locomotives to replace the 201s and the very very expensive bit would be getting the signalling up to spec.

Jamie2k9 · 01-12-2018 7:14pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

I'm not sure why that would be the case as they're already built with that change in mind. It's just a matter of adding an extra disc brake on the axels, which is part of their design. It's not a retrofit or major modification. The expensive bit would be sourcing locomotives to replace the 201s and the very very expensive bit would be getting the signalling up to spec.

Still don't see it. Just look at all the modification IE have to do to keep them at 160 km/h and the major costs with them. Even purchasing a loco capable of 200km/h plus with proven reliability won't be easy. Any operator with those speeds are almost exclusively EMU apart from class 800 in UK which just proves how bad they are on diesel. Mark IV were designed for two power cars and going back to CAF 20 years later isn't going to be straightforward nor do I think will happen.

If I was to make a prediction the Mark IVs will eventually move over to Belfast and operate alongside/replace DD and provide an hourly service or an early retirement and IE will push for electrified Cork/Dublin and purchase EMUs and operate at 225km/h for the route.

EdgeCase · 01-12-2018 7:43pm

Given where Brexit's going, it's actually questionable as to whether there'll be any need for such a service. You could be looking at significantly reduced trade and you will almost certainly be looking at cross border shopping becoming very unattractive if you're going to be stopped by Irish Revenue and British HMRC at the stations at either end.

If I were in IE or Translink management, I wouldn't spend a cent on that service until the current political turmoil is resolved. We could be going back to a scenario like pre 1993, and I think if that is the case, you're probably looking at the current Enterprise fleet being as good as it gets.

The MK4 fleet look to me to have been a bad mistake as a purchase in an era when they were fixated on loco-hauling and basically just did a direct replacement of the old BREL MK3 fleet that they scrapped. At least the 22000s use modern technology.

The BREL MK3, CAF MK3 and De Dietrich push-pulls are all basically form a bygone era.

You could also just top and tail the MK4s with electric locos and you'd easily have 200km/h service and there are reliable 200km/h diesels out there in use largely in high-speed freight on the continent and in the UK.

From a CO2 point of view, the priority at the moment should be electrification of the commuter rail network around Dublin, and possibly Cork and moving to electric-operations on trains that actually run frequently and with start-stop patterns.

It was incredible that we built modern commuter services with diesel trains. I haven't seen that anywhere else in Europe. It's a real cheap and nasty solution that looks like they didn't have the budget or vision to do the job properly. It's more like something you would see in the US.

If you could increase frequency and reliability and de-carbonise the commuter routes it would make a significant impact quite cheaply and quickly.

Not only are they CO2-heavy but the diesel commuter trains are generally rather rough experiences too and sound awful on board. They don't really make for a pleasant passenger experience as it sounds like you're on a truck half the time. The 22000s do not have that issue.

I don't think we can really justify electrification of anything other than maybe Cork-Dublin for intercity and that's probably pushing it.

cgcsb · 03-12-2018 11:18am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

IE will push for electrified Cork/Dublin and purchase EMUs and operate at 225km/h for the route.

Wouldn't that be wonderful. The morning express would only be about 90mins. They have this in Sweden operating across much longer distances and through way less populated areas.

cgcsb · 03-12-2018 11:24am

EdgeCase wrote: »

Given where Brexit's going, it's actually questionable as to whether there'll be any need for such a service. You could be looking at significantly reduced trade and you will almost certainly be looking at cross border shopping becoming very unattractive if you're going to be stopped by Irish Revenue and British HMRC at the stations at either end.

If I were in IE or Translink management, I wouldn't spend a cent on that service until the current political turmoil is resolved. We could be going back to a scenario like pre 1993, and I think if that is the case, you're probably looking at the current Enterprise fleet being as good as it gets.

The MK4 fleet look to me to have been a bad mistake as a purchase in an era when they were fixated on loco-hauling and basically just did a direct replacement of the old BREL MK3 fleet that they scrapped. At least the 22000s use modern technology.

The BREL MK3, CAF MK3 and De Dietrich push-pulls are all basically form a bygone era.

You could also just top and tail the MK4s with electric locos and you'd easily have 200km/h service and there are reliable 200km/h diesels out there in use largely in high-speed freight on the continent and in the UK.

From a CO2 point of view, the priority at the moment should be electrification of the commuter rail network around Dublin, and possibly Cork and moving to electric-operations on trains that actually run frequently and with start-stop patterns.

It was incredible that we built modern commuter services with diesel trains. I haven't seen that anywhere else in Europe. It's a real cheap and nasty solution that looks like they didn't have the budget or vision to do the job properly. It's more like something you would see in the US.

If you could increase frequency and reliability and de-carbonise the commuter routes it would make a significant impact quite cheaply and quickly.

Not only are they CO2-heavy but the diesel commuter trains are generally rather rough experiences too and sound awful on board. They don't really make for a pleasant passenger experience as it sounds like you're on a truck half the time. The 22000s do not have that issue.

I don't think we can really justify electrification of anything other than maybe Cork-Dublin for intercity and that's probably pushing it.

I'd be delighted with Greater Dublin, Greater Cork and Dublin-Cork electrified. Afterwards it'd be perfectly sensible to extend electrification to Dundalk. Forget about Belfast for the forseeable and run frequent trains to Dundalk.

Markcheese · 03-12-2018 12:12pm

What's the difference between a hybrid and diesel electric? Is it "just" the battery size and utilisation?

XPS_Zero · 03-12-2018 1:40pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

They'd arguably be better off just buying new ones with better efficiency, new mechanical components and better aerodynamics and aesthetics while they're at it to future proof for 200km/h.

They're going to be 30+ years old by the time this dithering is over.

I'd say any EU funding for the Enterprise is in massive doubt now too with a possible hard Brexit and NI leaving. There won't be any more TEN-T projects from that point on.

The EU has said that there will be financial aid to Ireland to help us cope with Brexit since we are disproportionately affected (not to mention owed all this solidarity after the ECB blackmailed us into bailing out senior bondholders during the crash), and they already accept that the peace process is critical to security on the island, cultural and social projects are key to establishing understanding between peoples which is why the Enterprise was funded to begin with, the funding may continue.

bk · 03-12-2018 10:10pm

Markcheese wrote: »

What's the difference between a hybrid and diesel electric? Is it "just" the battery size and utilisation?

A hybrid has batteries, diesel electric doesn't.

Basically with a Diesel Electric, the Diesel Engine drives an electric motor which is what drives the wheels.

A hybrid, adds a battery into this setup, so that regenerative braking can charge up the battery or the battery can be charged by the Diesel Engine and then the power from the battery can be used to drive the electric motor/wheels.

It has the following advantages:

- Gain power from braking, which can then be used for acceleration
- Diesel Engine can run at it's most efficient level, charging the battery with excess power
- Can switch off the Diesel Engine when stopped at stations, etc.

With a big enough battery, you could even run the Diesel Engine to charge the battery while in rural areas before it gets into more urban areas and then shutoff the Diesel Engine as it operates through the urban areas where NOX, etc. are a greater concern.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The EU has said that there will be financial aid to Ireland to help us cope with Brexit since we are disproportionately affected (not to mention owed all this solidarity after the ECB blackmailed us into bailing out senior bondholders during the crash), and they already accept that the peace process is critical to security on the island, cultural and social projects are key to establishing understanding between peoples which is why the Enterprise was funded to begin with, the funding may continue.

It could happen, but I'd have to agree with EdgeCase. Until the political situation with Brexit is resolved and clarified, it would be crazy to spend any money on the Belfast service.

Instead we have plenty to do and focus on with DART Expansion, Metrolink, etc. which are far more important then the intercity services IMO.

Improving intercity services is of course a nice to have and this particular hybrid project seems to be a really nice, affordable upgrade. But DART Expansion is where the greatest benefit is in both environmental impacts and benefit to rail users.

Praetorian · 04-12-2018 10:37am

The Hybrid Drive's sound great (pun intended). I wonder how long the (battery) packs will last considering some of the trains must operate 12-16 hours a day?

I'd love to see the electrification build start ASAP and be extended as much as possible. Replacing the 201's engines as well would be nice. A more fuel efficient yet more powerful modern engine with better acceleration would help with the Cork / Belfast journey times.

Irish rail should not be allowed touch the 071's though. They are fine the way they are

cgcsb · 04-12-2018 11:53am

Cork-Dublin electrification with 225km/hr running would be terrific. Hybrid trains could also use most of the route to serve Kerry and Limerick, journey times would be slashed. No other mode of transport would be competitive on journey time and we can stop the highly inefficient flights from Dublin to Kerry. Express Cork-Dublin in 70-80 mins, Limerick-Dublin in an hour. Kerry Dublin in a little over 2 hours. Also consider the time savings for Waterford and Galway. A Tullamore-Dublin commute could be cut down to half an hour for example. In short Electrifying Dublin-Cork would benefit almost every other intercity route if combined with hybrid trains.

Praetorian · 04-12-2018 1:32pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Cork-Dublin electrification with 225km/hr running would be terrific. Hybrid trains could also use most of the route to serve Kerry and Limerick, journey times would be slashed. No other mode of transport would be competitive on journey time and we can stop the highly inefficient flights from Dublin to Kerry. Express Cork-Dublin in 70-80 mins, Limerick-Dublin in an hour. Kerry Dublin in a little over 2 hours. Also consider the time savings for Waterford and Galway. A Tullamore-Dublin commute could be cut down to half an hour for example. In short Electrifying Dublin-Cork would benefit almost every other intercity route if combined with hybrid trains.

Nice dreams!

EdgeCase · 04-12-2018 1:56pm

It ageee the focus right now needs to be on commuter services to reduce traffic, make a lot of people’s lives a lot more pleasant and have a significant impact on CO2 output.

All of the Dublin commuter lines should be DART and the frequencies should be improved. Metrolink should be completed urgently and they should also be looking at serious capacity into West Dublin and areas of the city that aren’t served by decent mass transit.

Cork also needs at least one major mass transit link. There are >100,000 vehicles a day on the N40 south ring. That’s absolutely insane for a city the size of Cork and indicates that there’s a massive problem with public transport.

Markcheese · 04-12-2018 4:54pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

It ageee the focus right now needs to be on commuter services to reduce traffic, make a lot of people’s lives a lot more pleasant and have a significant impact on CO2 output.

All of the Dublin commuter lines should be DART and the frequencies should be improved. Metrolink should be completed urgently and they should also be looking at serious capacity into West Dublin and areas of the city that aren’t served by decent mass transit.

Cork also needs at least one major mass transit link. There are >100,000 vehicles a day on the N40 south ring. That’s absolutely insane for a city the size of Cork and indicates that there’s a massive problem with public transport.

The n40 is the main distributor road for cork.. City and county.. A lot more than 100,000.
It links everything from ballincolig round to glanmire, and also serves the north ring, and airport .
But doesn't really connect any public transport services... I can't get off the Midleton train at dunkettle to go to mahon.. Any services that cross the n40 can't link up... To go from ballincolig to the airport by bus involves going into the city centre and back out to the airport..

. A frequent n40 bus going from ballincolig to dunkettle and maybe on over to Blackpool with stops at curraheen, bishopstown, wilton, togher, kinsale Road, Douglas, Broomfield (for carrigaline) mahon and dunkettle, and into tivoli, it'd need dedicated stops and preferably park and rides, bike racks whatever to make each stop a decent transport interchange.
. . And if major employers/ industrial estates were encouraged to have shuttle buses to and from their nearest stop rather than big carpark all the better,
Sorry that went way off topic... Forgot Which thread I was on...

bk · 04-12-2018 5:18pm

Praetorian wrote: »

The Hybrid Drive's sound great (pun intended). I wonder how long the (battery) packs will last considering some of the trains must operate 12-16 hours a day?

Well in EV cars if actively cooled, they can last decades.

I suspect they might replace them after 10 years or so. But that shouldn't be a major issue, prices of batteries are dropping quickly and after 10 years you could likely replace them with batteries with twice the capacity in the same size and weight. Which would help to increase on fuel savings and offset costs.

BTW for those who don't know, after use like this, the batteries aren't useless, they usually get reused in less demanding applications like fixed energy storage and then eventually get recycled. There is a lot of value in even old battery packs.

EdgeCase wrote: »

It ageee the focus right now needs to be on commuter services to reduce traffic, make a lot of people’s lives a lot more pleasant and have a significant impact on CO2 output.

All of the Dublin commuter lines should be DART and the frequencies should be improved. Metrolink should be completed urgently and they should also be looking at serious capacity into West Dublin and areas of the city that aren’t served by decent mass transit.

Cork also needs at least one major mass transit link. There are >100,000 vehicles a day on the N40 south ring. That’s absolutely insane for a city the size of Cork and indicates that there’s a massive problem with public transport.

I agree completely. I know this is probably an unpopular opinion with some rail fans. But IMO intercity transport has already been well looked after by the government by pouring 10 billion into the intercity Motorway network and it has given us fantastic results. I know it isn't rail, but it is the way the vast majority of people and freight move between our cities.

However when doing that, they mostly ignored the needs of our cities beyond Luas and a few buses. And now we are suffering the effects of that terrible underinvestment in our cities.

We now need to focus on fixing that. Spend the next 10 years and next 10 billion on our cities commuter infrastructure. Metrolink, Dart Expansion, BusConnects, Luas for Cork, etc.

Once that is all done, we can return the focus to major improvements to intercity rail, but for now, we have bigger problems to deal with IMO.

EdgeCase · 04-12-2018 5:40pm

The only big exception to that I would say at the moment is the Northwest. We need to ensure that those counties aren't just left to wither after Brexit. That also needs to be funded to a large degree from the brexit divorce bill as it's being caused by circumstances beyond our control.

cgcsb · 04-12-2018 6:14pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

The only big exception to that I would say at the moment is the Northwest. We need to ensure that those counties aren't just left to wither after Brexit. That also needs to be funded to a large degree from the brexit divorce bill as it's being caused by circumstances beyond our control.

The northwest is hardly affected by rail investment though. Donegal, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Cavan, Monaghan and Meath(mostly) don't have any rail service.

Lord Glentoran · 05-12-2018 12:39am

cgcsb wrote: »

The northwest is hardly affected by rail investment though. Donegal, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Cavan, Monaghan and Meath(mostly) don't have any rail service.

Yeah. We did notice that. Last time the subject of Donegal and trains was mentioned here some years ago the thread descended into a few warriors from the WRC thread asserting that self driving electric cars would render any new railway redundant, so it MUST NORT be built ever.

:rolleyes:

cgcsb · 05-12-2018 10:05am

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Yeah. We did notice that. Last time the subject of Donegal and trains was mentioned here some years ago the thread descended into a few warriors from the WRC thread asserting that self driving electric cars would render any new railway redundant, so it MUST NORT be built ever.

:rolleyes:

A Dublin-Northwest intercity line would be nice, but it's far fetched. Given that the cities won't have sufficient transport infrastructure until the 2030s at the earliest, then there needs to be serious improvements made to make Dublin-Cork medium/high speed.

Then when you take partition and Brexit into account it seems an impossible ask in the first half of this century. At present the 2 largest Cities in Ireland only have 8 trains a day between them, running at extremely poor speed (max 145kmh) and there isn't a service that can get you to either city for a 9am meeting.

Until this things change, it seems unlikely.

EdgeCase · 06-12-2018 6:00pm

I wouldn't have thought that rail's an appropriate solution for the Northwest to be perfectly honest due to the low population densities.

The region needs some investment in good quality N-roads and investment into the road network in general. I don't really buy the argument that environmentally friendly transportation absolutely has to be rail. If you put some proper investment into electric car charging infrastructure and things like hybrid coach type busses you can cover a low-density largely rural area like Donegal quite effectively.

We have at most two, and probably only one route that meets the definition of intercity heavy rail i.e. Cork-Dublin and the rest are basically equivalent in terms of population densities to what you'd see in rural western France or Scotland. They're actually not too bad for what they are in terms of rolling stock and maintenance and so on. I'm a bit disappointed that the possibility of smaller more regular 22000s haven't been used to improve frequencies though on some of those routes.

However, all that aside, I think we need to use rail where high-capacity transit is viable and appropriate and that is around the Dublin area and increasingly Cork is showing needs for it too.

We also need to be at the very least planning it in for Limerick and Galway and to a lesser degree of urgency due to scale Waterford- i.e. reserving space for a future tram system and ensuring that one's possible at the cheapest possible rate in decades to come. For example, we could be doing this in a phased way i.e. create bus-based greenways that can ultimately be replaced by trams.

We absolutely should be using the greenest technologies for busses to i.e. hybrids, electric or whatever becomes possible as time goes on. Running diesel busses isn't really a great solution either from a CO2 output point of view or local particulate pollution perspective in cities.

The aim should be a technology/mode neutral project that aims to get maximum 'bang for buck' and benefit to end users and the environment. I think sometimes we get debates here that can be fixated on rail for the sake of rail.

11-12-2018 1:57pm

bk wrote: »

We have gone from well over 50% of our electricity being produced by coal, to almost 0% over the last 6 months *

Renewables have gone to low single figures to over 30% now and regularly hit 50% overnight (important as most EV's are charged overnight).

snip

* There seems to be something really interesting going on the last few months, strictly speaking Moneypoint is still open, but it has been producing only low single digits and often 0% over the last few months, almost like unofficially is is already closed.

Moneypoint has had an enforced shutdown due to engineering faults in the turbines.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/turbines-at-moneypoint-power-station-out-of-action-due-to-forced-outage-1.3718846

bk · 12-12-2018 2:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Moneypoint has had an enforced shutdown due to engineering faults in the turbines.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/turbines-at-moneypoint-power-station-out-of-action-due-to-forced-outage-1.3718846

Thanks for that, very interesting.

Though it does show clearly that we don't need it any more. We seem to have plenty of generating capacity with much cleaner energy sources of wind, gas and interconnector.

Probably wise to keep it around until Brexit is sorted and we know the impact of that. But ideally kept running as little as possible and just a backup, which it and the peat stations can be removed completely once the interconnector to France is built.

EdgeCase · 12-12-2018 3:07pm

It could actually be converted to carbon neutral biomass burning. That's assuming we could get sufficient biomass to supply it.

cgcsb · 12-12-2018 3:18pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

carbon neutral biomass burning.

Doesn't exist.

Biomass for electricity is pure environmental vandalism, way dirtier than natural gas. Biomass district heating is one to consider though. It won't replace the baseloading of moneypoint though. We need a small nuclear reactor to baseload and guarantee energy security, especially in an era of electricity hungry data centres, EVs and elect trains.

The interconnector to France puts us at the mercy of French energy policy.

Idbatterim · 12-12-2018 3:25pm

https://www.engadget.com/2018/09/17/bombardier-battery-powered-electric-train/?guccounter=1

I read that article which I found interesting!

bk · 12-12-2018 3:30pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Doesn't exist.

Biomass for electricity is pure environmental vandalism, way dirtier than natural gas. Biomass district heating is one to consider though. It won't replace the baseloading of moneypoint though. We need a small nuclear reactor to baseload and guarantee energy security, especially in an era of electricity hungry data centres, EVs and elect trains.

The interconnector to France puts us at the mercy of French energy policy.

Nuclear unfortunately is just not going to happen.

And small Nuclear doesn't really exist at the moment, but might in future.

France is pretty much a safe bet. They are 80% Nuclear and their most recent plans show that continuing for decades to come. They are under pressure to increase renewables, so swapping some of their Nuclear for our wind is very much in their favour.

The only way we will ever get close to renewables is by sharing the load across Europe and taking advantage of each others strengths.

It is a pity Scotland is in our way of doing an interconnector with Norway and their lovely hydro power.

EdgeCase · 12-12-2018 3:33pm

The biggest issue in France isn't energy policy. It's more that you could get downtime due to a political climate that leads to endless public service and industrial strikes.

That hasn't been a temporary phenomenon either. It's long established and regular.

bk · 12-12-2018 3:35pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://www.engadget.com/2018/09/17/bombardier-battery-powered-electric-train/?guccounter=1

I read that article which I found interesting!

Interesting that they are using Silicon, it seems to be popping up increasingly to help make smaller electronics. Extra small chargers, etc.

Markcheese · 12-12-2018 3:37pm

Converting money point to biomass would probably mean, a brand new boiler, and different material handling equipment, to be installed in a station near the end of its life.. And it still couldn't produce the energy it does now, because of huge difference in energy density in wood versus coal... And most importantly where would all the biomass come from?

bk · 12-12-2018 3:37pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

The biggest issue in France isn't energy policy. It's more that you could get downtime due to a political climate that leads to endless public service and industrial strikes.

That hasn't been a temporary phenomenon either. It's long established and regular.

While they have an obvious history of strikes, etc. That has never effected their energy sector. It is considered too crucial to be allowed to be impacted. Same here, folks at the ESB have always been well looked after.

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