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No NCT - court appearance

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    #32
    Azizur Rahman
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭Azizur Rahman


    Gardaí have no power to demand a driver to produce tax to a Garda station. What usually happens is a demand for NCT/insurance/license is made and the driver is asked to show tax at the same time in station.


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    #33
    flatty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭flatty


    I have nothing worthwhile to add but good luck. I think it's rotten. I hope common sense prevails. Depends on the humor of the judge I'd imagine.


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    #34
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    I was once asked to produce DL at a station, duly did, then got a summons for not producing insurance, judge didn't really care as to why would I produce my license and not the insurance ( company vehicle so definitely insured ) and made the assumption that the Gard would recite parrot like to produce both. Anyways after all that got a £5 fine ( yes that long ago ), so expect somewhere around €50 is my guess.


    Are we having a sweepstake?


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    #35
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Marcusm wrote: »
    That's two prosecutions for the same infraction.

    No it is not, one is driving without a valid NCT, the other is failing to produce a NCT certificate, the first offence is committed when you are stopped, the second is committed 10 days later.

    Many people have been prosecuted for driving with no insurance and failing to produce an insurance policy and has been subject to High Court cases, see for example the Grendon vs Judges of the District Court & Anor [2002] IEHC 121 judicial review case.


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Surely that's non bis in idem and contrary to the convention on human rights. The "producer" should be requested where the driver asserts the existence of a valid NCT and this becomes a backup offence. By penalising for both non existence and non production of a non existent cert, there is surely a double jeopardy point irrespective of the statutory provisions..

    Non bis in idem does not apply as they are not the same cause of action.

    Also double jeopardy can not apply where one offence is a penalty point offence and no court case has resulted due to paying a fine and accepting points as res judicata does not apply. Also bear in mind that double jeopardy applies to the same offence or of the same "essential ingredients" at the same time, the problem is one offence occurs 10 days after the first and so are not the same offence.

    There is no requirement on the Gardaí to ask for production of a certificate where the motorists asserts it's existence, the request is purely optional of the Guard and not based on any pre-existing qualification.


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    #36
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Azizur Rahman wrote: »
    Gardaí have no power to demand a driver to produce tax to a Garda station

    Correct, Gardaí simply don't make that request, they can't.

    Which makes me wonder if the OPs OH got mixed up, most likely the Guard asked them to produce the NCT and the OH took him/her up wrong and was convinced it was for tax.


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    #37
    VW 1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭VW 1


    Appreciate all the replies and advice.

    In court this morning the judge asked was she pleading guilty or not guilty.

    OH replied she wasn't exactly sure of the charge as she had paid the FPN and taken the endorsement on her licence, and subsequently scrapped the car.

    The Garda contributed that the summons was due to an automated process once the NCT cert wasn't produced.

    Judge struck the case off.

    Lesson learned and it's certainly not a mistake she is going to make again!


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    #38
    cruizer101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    I think the lesson I take from this, and from other similar threads I've seen, if asked to produce anything to garda station, produce it all, licence, insurance, NCT, tax

    Glad to hear got off anyway


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    #39
    zurbfoundation
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭zurbfoundation


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    I think the lesson I take from this, and from other similar threads I've seen, if asked to produce anything to garda station, produce it all, licence, insurance, NCT, tax

    Glad to hear got off anyway

    Good advise / better to be looking at it than looking for it


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    #40
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    I think the lesson I take from this, and from other similar threads I've seen, if asked to produce anything to garda station, produce it all, licence, insurance, NCT, tax

    Glad to hear got off anyway

    I've never had to produce anything luckily but was wondering if you do can you ask for a receipt of some kind to prove that you did produce all the documents?


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    #41
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    my3cents wrote: »
    I've never had to produce anything luckily but was wondering if you do can you ask for a receipt of some kind to prove that you did produce all the documents?

    Only for production of a licence, the Guard is required to issue a receipt, but it rarely happens though.

    Top tip, when producing documents ask the member to stamp, sign and date the back of the policy, it's not official, but helps and most will oblige.


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    #42
    tcawley29
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭tcawley29


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    I think the lesson I take from this, and from other similar threads I've seen, if asked to produce anything to garda station, produce it all, licence, insurance, NCT, tax

    Glad to hear got off anyway

    I did that before and they thought I was mad in the head.

    They were even more confused when I asked for a receipt to prove I had done so :)


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    #43
    orm0nd
    Registered Users Posts: 4,185 ✭✭✭orm0nd


    my3cents wrote: »
    I've never had to produce anything luckily but was wondering if you do can you ask for a receipt of some kind to prove that you did produce all the documents?

    any time we're asked I write on the back of the insurance cert. (or photo copy of D license) as the case may be

    "produced at ****** Garda St on (date)" & ask the guard to stamp it.

    had a lot of under age drivers over the years, & usually queried that they were covered by insurance even though disc would have been on windscreen


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    #44
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,945 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    GM228 wrote: »
    Only for production of a licence, the Guard is required to issue a receipt, but it rarely happens though.

    Top tip, when producing documents ask the member to stamp, sign and date the back of the policy, it's not official, but helps and most will oblige.

    So the trick is to do as cruizer101 said and always produce everything then ask for the Pulse receipt. I assume that is what they give out as I had to produce and the name I gave for the road was different to name on the receipt, both names were correct.


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    #45
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Del2005 wrote: »
    So the trick is to do as cruizer101 said and always produce everything then ask for the Pulse receipt. I assume that is what they give out as I had to produce and the name I gave for the road was different to name on the receipt, both names were correct.

    Everything but tax, there's really no point as no offence arises out of not showing tax - they can't make a lawful demand of such.

    There is no entitlement to a receipt (it's not a PULSE receipt) unless you produce a licence, hence why I'd ask for your paperwork to be stamped.


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    #46
    mgbgt1978
    Registered Users Posts: 4,231 ✭✭✭mgbgt1978


    GM228 wrote: »
    <snip>

    . Due to perhaps an oversight in the law you are however exempt on the day of a test if you fail it.
    Is that not more of a particular exception/exemption in the law to allow a person bring their car to an NCT centre (and obviously back home again) , rather than an oversight ?
    If a "Dangerous Fail" were detected then that would be treated in the same manner as any vehicle with a soon-to-expire NCT.


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    #47
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    mgbgt1978 wrote: »
    Is that not more of a particular exception/exemption in the law to allow a person bring their car to an NCT centre (and obviously back home again) , rather than an oversight ?
    If a "Dangerous Fail" were detected then that would be treated in the same manner as any vehicle with a soon-to-expire NCT.

    No, there is no exemption for bringing a car to the NCT, there were two specific exemptions for these when testing started in 2000:-

    1. Bringing a car to the test
    2. Bringing the car back home from the test if it failed.

    No. 1 was repealed in 2003, no.2 however has managed to escape and it would appear to be a classic "copy and paste" having made it's way into every regulation (including the latest) ever since.


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    #48
    tcawley29
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭tcawley29


    How did it go today OP?


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    #49
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    tcawley29 wrote: »
    How did it go today OP?

    See message 37.


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    #50
    tcawley29
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭tcawley29


    GM228 wrote: »
    See message 37.

    Cool I missed that.

    Glad to hear that everything worked out okay :)


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    #51
    SeaFields
    Registered Users Posts: 6,551 ✭✭✭SeaFields


    Just as a matter of clarification op, did herself get a solicitor or go in by herself? Glad to hear all went well eitherway


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    #52
    VW 1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭VW 1


    No solicitor, went in by herself.

    As it seemed the only possible punishment was a fine, we decided not to take the extra expense of having a solicitor in case it was just dismissed and there was no need.


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    #53
    sparksfly
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭sparksfly


    She is being summonsed for not producing her cert at a garda station. She already paid her fine for no NCT. I would be confident that common sense will prevail and the case will be dismissed when the sequence of events is clearly set out at court.
    Edit: Sorry, due to some issue with my WIFI, the last 2 pages loaded after I posted my comment. Glad it worked out well.


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    #54
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    sparksfly wrote: »
    She is being summonsed for not producing her cert at a garda station. She already paid her fine for no NCT. I would be confident that common sense will prevail and the case will be dismissed when the sequence of events is clearly set out at court.


    you missed Post 37


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