No NCT - court appearance

VW 1

Hi All, looking for advice on this.

My OH was stopped last year in September at a check point, she had no tax disc as it was in the post and no current NCT displayed, but she did have proof that she had her test booked for the next week.
The Garda asked her to produce her tax disc when it arrived, which she did two days later.

December comes and she gets a letter for a fine and points for no NCT (which she was annoyed that the Garda never told her to expect it, but she took on the chin as she was in the wrong).

She wasn't asked to produce an NCT cert, and so never did, just the tax disc.

Last week she received a summons for a court appearance for not producing a valid NCT. The car has since been sold to a scrap yard, but we got no receipt or proof that it was sold.

Long story short, my question is, what does she need to do to avoid any further reprimand in the court appearance?

Cee-Jay-Cee

So she never paid the fine for having no NCT displayed??

Spook_ie

Did she not pay the fine on the penalty notice?

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Point%20offences%20as%20of%2017%20April%202016.pdf

3 points and €60 for no NCT according to that.

VW 1

Sorry if the first bit wasn't clear, yes she paid the fine and received the points.

But then a summons arrived last week, which mentioned she hadn't presented the NCT cert to a Garda station.

cml387

VW 1 wrote: »

Sorry if the first bit wasn't clear, yes she paid the fine and received the points.

But then a summons arrived last week, which mentioned she hadn't presented the NCT cert to a Garda station.

But you say she didn't present the NCT, just the tax disc.

VW 1

Yep, the sequence of events was as below

Stopped - asked to produce tax disc, no mention about NCT once she showed letter to show the test was booked

Produced tax disc

Received fine and points for not displaying NCT

Paid fine and points

Scrapped car after it failed the NCT and expenses to get it to pass were higher than the car was worth

Received summons

wexie

VW 1 wrote: »

The car has since been sold to a scrap yard, but we got no receipt or proof that it was sold.

was the book signed over at least? Or is it still in your name?

VW 1 wrote: »

Scrapped car after it failed the NCT and expenses to get it to pass were higher than the car was worth

Do you still have the fail sheet?

VW 1

wexie wrote: »

was the book signed over at least? Or is it still in your name?



Do you still have the fail sheet?

Indeed, the log book was signed over and sent off.

I don't know about the fail sheet, I can't imagine it was kept once the car was disposed of.

wexie

VW 1 wrote: »

Indeed, the log book was signed over and sent off.

I don't know about the fail sheet, I can't imagine it was kept once the car was disposed of.

Probably what I would do is get a copy of the fail sheet to bring with you, maybe a printout of the change of ownership and just explain the situation.

I don't know if it'll make much of a difference because I guess she did drive without a valid NCT. But it's a pretty decent explanation as to why no valid NCT was presented.

cml387

This thing about being ok to drive around with no NCT if you had the test booked seems to be predicated on the fact that the car will pass once the test is done.
Essentially she was driving around in a defective car, the fail sheet will prove it.

I'm afraid I don't fancy her chances.

Zubeneschamali

cml387 wrote: »

I'm afraid I don't fancy her chances.

She already got fined, paid up and got points.

What more do they want?

Guffy

Try ringing the station and speaking to the guard. I imagine its a clerical error. Better yet call in with proof of payment

Atlantic Dawn

How long was NCT out for?

VW 1

cml387 wrote: »

I'm afraid I don't fancy her chances.

Ultimately this is what I am trying to find out, she paid the points/fine associated with the offence and the car is no longer in her possession, I'm not sure what more she could have done, or what the possible charge is?

If there is further punishment, she is being punished for the same offence twice.

I'm hoping it is just a clerical error and will be dismissed once she explains she accepted the points and paid the fine and is no longer the owner of the vehicle.

VW 1

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

How long was NCT out for?

It was out from the end of July, she was stopped in early September.

Spook_ie

is failing to produce a separate offence from no NCT?

If so then ring NCT and get duplicates of fail notice, then tell the Gard you couldn't produce as the car failed, you'll likely get him to drop it (if they're allowed to now a days) if not maybe get a solicitor onto it and plead the same to court.

GM228

Failing to produce and having no NCT are two distinct offences.

The problem is however the Guard must specifically ask for you to produce the certificate within 10 days to a station you nominate. If they don't make this request then there is no offence of failure to produce. You can make this argument in court, but the Guard could say they made the demand (perhaps they genuinely believe they made a request), it's your word against theirs basically. Having a test booked or failing the test is inconsiquential.

There is a huge misconception that you can drive around with no NCT whilst you have one booked, that provision was repealed in 15 years ago in 2003, although most Gardaí exercise discretion when that is the case. Due to perhaps an oversight in the law you are however exempt on the day of a test if you fail it.

VW 1

GM228 wrote: »

Failing to produce and having no NCT are two distinct offences.

The problem is however the Guard must specifically ask for you to produce the certificate within 10 days to a station you nominate. If they don't make this request then there is no offence of failure to produce. You can make this argument in court, but the Guard could say they made the demand (perhaps they genuinely believe they made a request), it's your word against theirs basically. Having a test booked or failing the test is inconsiquential.

There is a huge misconception that you can drive around with no NCT whilst you have one booked, that provision was repealed in 15 years ago in 2003, although most Gardaxercise discretion when that is the case. Due to perhaps an oversight in the law you are however exempt on the day of a test if you fail it.

She knew that it didnt make her legal to carry the test booking, it was to show she wasnt just a chancer, she was in the process of having the necessary repairs done, but in the end the cost was just prohibitive.

I looked through the rsa list posted above and didnt see two separate offences for no nct/failing to produce. Is that list exhaustive or is there an updated one?

Hoping it just gets dismissed tbh, she's pretty stressed about a problem she thought was gone when the car was scrapped six months ago.

GM228

VW 1 wrote: »

She knew that it didnt make her legal to carry the test booking, it was to show she wasnt just a chancer, she was in the process of having the necessary repairs done, but in the end the cost was just prohibitive.

I looked through the rsa list posted above and didnt see two separate offences for no nct/failing to produce. Is that list exhaustive or is there an updated one?

Hoping it just gets dismissed tbh, she's pretty stressed about a problem she thought was gone when the car was scrapped six months ago.

The RSA list is just for penalty point offences, failure to produce is not a penalty point offence.

robtri

I would struggle to believe that the Garda asked for proof of Tax and didnt ask for NCT proof. It would be very irresponsible of him not to ask for them both to be produced.

I gather from your statement that the car had already failed an NCT test before she was stopped?

VW 1

robtri wrote: »

I would struggle to believe that the Garda asked for proof of Tax and didnt ask for NCT proof. It would be very irresponsible of him not to ask for them both to be produced.

I gather from your statement that the car had already failed an NCT test before she was stopped?

No it had to be postponed for a couple of weeks to save money for the fixes needed as highlighted on a pre-test checkover, hence not being done at the end of July as planned. It transpired that when it went in for those fixes that there were other underlying issues rendering the car too expensive to fix relative to the cars value.

She was on her own when stopped, so i took her word when she was shocked to receive the points and fine three months following the incident. She said the garda seemed happy enough that she had the test booked and didnt mention points or producing a cert.

jimmycrackcorm

Request details of the points from the NDLS, email info@ndls.ie, and quote your driving licence number.
That should show that the points were given already from that stop.

Del2005

VW 1 wrote: »

No it had to be postponed for a couple of weeks to save money for the fixes needed as highlighted on a pre-test checkover, hence not being done at the end of July as planned. It transpired that when it went in for those fixes that there were other underlying issues rendering the car too expensive to fix relative to the cars value.

She was on her own when stopped, so i took her word when she was shocked to receive the points and fine three months following the incident. She said the garda seemed happy enough that she had the test booked and didnt mention points or producing a cert.

This is another reason why NCT pre tests are a waste of money. If you do the NCT then you know what to fix.

VW 1

Anyway, drawing a line under it all, the court date is tomorroe, whats the worst possible outcome in anyones opinions?

UrbanFret

VW 1 wrote: »

Anyway, drawing a line under it all, the court date is tomorroe, whats the worst possible outcome in anyones opinions?

Life without parole.:eek:

Wildly Boaring

No idea

Have you spoken to a solicitor yet?

UrbanFret

Seriously I think common sense will prevail and the matter should be dismissed. Good luck.

Marcusm

GM228 wrote: »

Failing to produce and having no NCT are two distinct offences.

The problem is however the Guard must specifically ask for you to produce the certificate within 10 days to a station you nominate. If they don't make this request then there is no offence of failure to produce. You can make this argument in court, but the Guard could say they made the demand (perhaps they genuinely believe they made a request), it's your word against theirs basically. Having a test booked or failing the test is inconsiquential.

There is a huge misconception that you can drive around with no NCT whilst you have one booked, that provision was repealed in 15 years ago in 2003, although most Gardaí exercise discretion when that is the case. Due to perhaps an oversight in the law you are however exempt on the day of a test if you fail it.

I can agree that failing to produce and driving without an NCT are separate offences;however, I would not have thought it was possible to prosecute for one while imposing a FCP for the other. In the instance at hand, there was no NCT cert in force at the time and surely it would never be possible to impose an obligation to produce the in-force certificate in whatever timeframe. In those circumstances, the driver having acknowledged the non-existence of an NCT cert, surely it would not be possible for the Garda to require production of a non-existent document, I.e. the requirement to produce and any subsequent prosecution for same has to be predicated on the existence of such a document. Where no NCT cert exists, prosecution or an FCP for driving a car without a current NCT would surely be the end of the matter.

GM228

Marcusm wrote: »

I can agree that failing to produce and driving without an NCT are separate offences;however, I would not have thought it was possible to prosecute for one while imposing a FCP for the other. In the instance at hand, there was no NCT cert in force at the time and surely it would never be possible to impose an obligation to produce the in-force certificate in whatever timeframe. In those circumstances, the driver having acknowledged the non-existence of an NCT cert, surely it would not be possible for the Garda to require production of a non-existent document, I.e. the requirement to produce and any subsequent prosecution for same has to be predicated on the existence of such a document. Where no NCT cert exists, prosecution or an FCP for driving a car without a current NCT would surely be the end of the matter.

They are two separate offences independent of each other.

Even if it was not physically impossible to produce a certificate within 10 days you have failed to produce, end of, the law is not concerned with the reason for the failure.

If that was a cop out many would get away with failure to produce insurance or a driving licence for example and many people have been prosecuted for both not having a licence/insurance and failure to produce them.

Marcusm

GM228 wrote: »

They are two separate offences independent of each other.

Even if it was not physically impossible to produce a certificate within 10 days you have failed to produce, end of, the law is not concerned with the reason for the failure.

If that was a cop out many would get away with failure to produce insurance or a driving licence for example and many people have been prosecuted for both not having a licence/insurance and failure to produce them.

That's two prosecutions for the same infraction. Surely that's non bis in idem and contrary to the convention on human rights. The "producer" should be requested where the driver asserts the existence of a valid NCT and this becomes a backup offence. By penalising for both non existence and non production of a non existent cert, there is surely a double jeopardy point irrespective of the statutory provisions..

blackbox

Have you checked the date of the offence on the summons? Could it be for a different date from the one for which the fine was paid?

Azizur Rahman

Gardaí have no power to demand a driver to produce tax to a Garda station. What usually happens is a demand for NCT/insurance/license is made and the driver is asked to show tax at the same time in station.

flatty

I have nothing worthwhile to add but good luck. I think it's rotten. I hope common sense prevails. Depends on the humor of the judge I'd imagine.

Spook_ie

I was once asked to produce DL at a station, duly did, then got a summons for not producing insurance, judge didn't really care as to why would I produce my license and not the insurance ( company vehicle so definitely insured ) and made the assumption that the Gard would recite parrot like to produce both. Anyways after all that got a £5 fine ( yes that long ago ), so expect somewhere around €50 is my guess.


Are we having a sweepstake?

GM228

Marcusm wrote: »

That's two prosecutions for the same infraction.

No it is not, one is driving without a valid NCT, the other is failing to produce a NCT certificate, the first offence is committed when you are stopped, the second is committed 10 days later.

Many people have been prosecuted for driving with no insurance and failing to produce an insurance policy and has been subject to High Court cases, see for example the Grendon vs Judges of the District Court & Anor [2002] IEHC 121 judicial review case.

Marcusm wrote: »

Surely that's non bis in idem and contrary to the convention on human rights. The "producer" should be requested where the driver asserts the existence of a valid NCT and this becomes a backup offence. By penalising for both non existence and non production of a non existent cert, there is surely a double jeopardy point irrespective of the statutory provisions..

Non bis in idem does not apply as they are not the same cause of action.

Also double jeopardy can not apply where one offence is a penalty point offence and no court case has resulted due to paying a fine and accepting points as res judicata does not apply. Also bear in mind that double jeopardy applies to the same offence or of the same "essential ingredients" at the same time, the problem is one offence occurs 10 days after the first and so are not the same offence.

There is no requirement on the Gardaí to ask for production of a certificate where the motorists asserts it's existence, the request is purely optional of the Guard and not based on any pre-existing qualification.

GM228

Azizur Rahman wrote: »

Gardaí have no power to demand a driver to produce tax to a Garda station

Correct, Gardaí simply don't make that request, they can't.

Which makes me wonder if the OPs OH got mixed up, most likely the Guard asked them to produce the NCT and the OH took him/her up wrong and was convinced it was for tax.

VW 1

Appreciate all the replies and advice.

In court this morning the judge asked was she pleading guilty or not guilty.

OH replied she wasn't exactly sure of the charge as she had paid the FPN and taken the endorsement on her licence, and subsequently scrapped the car.

The Garda contributed that the summons was due to an automated process once the NCT cert wasn't produced.

Judge struck the case off.

Lesson learned and it's certainly not a mistake she is going to make again!

cruizer101

I think the lesson I take from this, and from other similar threads I've seen, if asked to produce anything to garda station, produce it all, licence, insurance, NCT, tax

Glad to hear got off anyway

zurbfoundation

cruizer101 wrote: »

I think the lesson I take from this, and from other similar threads I've seen, if asked to produce anything to garda station, produce it all, licence, insurance, NCT, tax

Glad to hear got off anyway

Good advise / better to be looking at it than looking for it

my3cents

cruizer101 wrote: »

I think the lesson I take from this, and from other similar threads I've seen, if asked to produce anything to garda station, produce it all, licence, insurance, NCT, tax

Glad to hear got off anyway

I've never had to produce anything luckily but was wondering if you do can you ask for a receipt of some kind to prove that you did produce all the documents?

GM228

my3cents wrote: »

I've never had to produce anything luckily but was wondering if you do can you ask for a receipt of some kind to prove that you did produce all the documents?

Only for production of a licence, the Guard is required to issue a receipt, but it rarely happens though.

Top tip, when producing documents ask the member to stamp, sign and date the back of the policy, it's not official, but helps and most will oblige.

tcawley29

cruizer101 wrote: »

I think the lesson I take from this, and from other similar threads I've seen, if asked to produce anything to garda station, produce it all, licence, insurance, NCT, tax

Glad to hear got off anyway

I did that before and they thought I was mad in the head.

They were even more confused when I asked for a receipt to prove I had done so

orm0nd

my3cents wrote: »

I've never had to produce anything luckily but was wondering if you do can you ask for a receipt of some kind to prove that you did produce all the documents?

any time we're asked I write on the back of the insurance cert. (or photo copy of D license) as the case may be

"produced at ****** Garda St on (date)" & ask the guard to stamp it.

had a lot of under age drivers over the years, & usually queried that they were covered by insurance even though disc would have been on windscreen

Del2005

GM228 wrote: »

Only for production of a licence, the Guard is required to issue a receipt, but it rarely happens though.

Top tip, when producing documents ask the member to stamp, sign and date the back of the policy, it's not official, but helps and most will oblige.

So the trick is to do as cruizer101 said and always produce everything then ask for the Pulse receipt. I assume that is what they give out as I had to produce and the name I gave for the road was different to name on the receipt, both names were correct.

GM228

Del2005 wrote: »

So the trick is to do as cruizer101 said and always produce everything then ask for the Pulse receipt. I assume that is what they give out as I had to produce and the name I gave for the road was different to name on the receipt, both names were correct.

Everything but tax, there's really no point as no offence arises out of not showing tax - they can't make a lawful demand of such.

There is no entitlement to a receipt (it's not a PULSE receipt) unless you produce a licence, hence why I'd ask for your paperwork to be stamped.

mgbgt1978

GM228 wrote: »

<snip>

. Due to perhaps an oversight in the law you are however exempt on the day of a test if you fail it.

Is that not more of a particular exception/exemption in the law to allow a person bring their car to an NCT centre (and obviously back home again) , rather than an oversight ?
If a "Dangerous Fail" were detected then that would be treated in the same manner as any vehicle with a soon-to-expire NCT.

GM228

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Is that not more of a particular exception/exemption in the law to allow a person bring their car to an NCT centre (and obviously back home again) , rather than an oversight ?
If a "Dangerous Fail" were detected then that would be treated in the same manner as any vehicle with a soon-to-expire NCT.

No, there is no exemption for bringing a car to the NCT, there were two specific exemptions for these when testing started in 2000:-

1. Bringing a car to the test
2. Bringing the car back home from the test if it failed.

No. 1 was repealed in 2003, no.2 however has managed to escape and it would appear to be a classic "copy and paste" having made it's way into every regulation (including the latest) ever since.

tcawley29

How did it go today OP?

GM228

tcawley29 wrote: »

How did it go today OP?

See message 37.

tcawley29

GM228 wrote: »

See message 37.

Cool I missed that.

Glad to hear that everything worked out okay

SeaFields

Just as a matter of clarification op, did herself get a solicitor or go in by herself? Glad to hear all went well eitherway