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Salisbury nerve agent attack a false flag/decoy operation?

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    #32
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    I'm not the slightest bit surprised

    You never researched the topic, obviously.

    Jews were murdered by guards and officers in camps in Poland. Lot of Jews got over worked. The majority of prisoners died from disease and were buried in dug pits. Rest of it made up bull****. Red Cross estimated in 1979 around 270,000 Jews died, this number jumped to 3 million, then 4 million, then 5 million, then 6 million where it is at now.


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    #33
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    You never researched the topic, obviously.

    Jews were murdered by guards and officers in camps in Poland. Lot of Jews got over worked. The majority of prisoners died from disease and were buried in dug pits. Rest of it made up bull****. Red Cross estimated in 1979 around 270,000 Jews died, then jumped to 3 million, then 4 million, then 5 million, then 6 million.
    And can we assume that you also subscribe to the idea the moon landing was faked?
    Is the Earth flat also?


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    #34
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    King Mob wrote: »
    And can we assume that you also subscribe to the idea the moon landing was faked?
    Is the Earth flat also?

    I describe we went to the moon, but some photographs look fake.

    I don't believe in Flat Earth.


    Next?


    This one from the Moon does not make sense because of the object height (right side) in his visor.

    449226.png


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    #35
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,793 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    You never researched the topic, obviously.

    Jews were murdered by guards and officers in camps in Poland. Lot of Jews got over worked. The majority of prisoners died from disease and were buried in dug pits. Rest of it made up bull****. Red Cross estimated in 1979 around 270,000 Jews died, this number jumped to 3 million, then 4 million, then 5 million, then 6 million where it is at now.

    Really?


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    #36
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Really?

    Really, and? What do you want me to answer?


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    #37
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,793 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Really, and? What do you want me to answer?

    So for you - the figure is 270k Jews killed in the Holocaust, correct?

    Would you say the figures for Soviet POWs, Roma, gypsies, homosexuals, etc are correct though? or are you just focused on the Jews


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    #38
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    I think that to prevent things getting confused, Cheerful should start a "Did the holocaust really happen?" thread. Or maybe "Was the holocaust as bad as they say?"


    There's no point mixing up the holocaust with the skripal stuff.


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    #39
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,793 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    mcmoustache wrote: »
    I think that to prevent things getting confused, Cheerful should start a "Did the holocaust really happen?" thread. Or maybe "Was the holocaust as bad as they say?"


    There's no point mixing up the holocaust with the skripal stuff.

    Yeah I agree, just to keep the issue separate, maybe they should open the thread on After Hours


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    #40
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    So for you - the figure is 270k Jews killed in the Holocaust, correct?

    Would you say the figures for Soviet POWs, Roma, gypsies, homosexuals, etc are correct though? or are you just focused on the Jews

    I don't think 6 million number is correct, and I don't believe the 4 million number I heard a decade ago is correct. Any this stage I think we will ever know the true number.

    I don't deny Nazis crimes in places like Auschwitz, it obvious bad stuff happened there. Still, I have a hard time believing thousands of people arrived each day on Trains and were showered with Zylon 12 and bodies were burned each day and this continued on every day and camp occupants did not go mad and try to overthrow the guards and escape?

    What I think happened people were showered to stop disease and people were buried in huge pits when they died. And how can people calculate the Jewish population after the war if nobody counting where they went after. Millions of Jews escaped to America and the Middle East.


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    #41
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Yeah I agree, just to keep the issue separate, maybe they should open the thread on After Hours

    I'm not sure. The mods would probably just send it over here. Then again, no harm to try - it's a busier place after all, not that i'll be engaging.


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    #42
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Yeah I agree, just to keep the issue separate, maybe they should open the thread on After Hours

    Don't bother after hours isn't the place for this topic. Discussing here is it.


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    #43
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Don't bother after hours isn't the place for this topic. Discussing here is it.

    On this, we agree.


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    #44
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Owryan wrote: »
    A valid reason would be the next time a Russian spy/agent/VIP thinks about defecting or becoming a double agent a little voice night remind them of what happened in the UK.

    It also sends a message to others who are in a similar position that they are not safe.


    This doesn't make any sense and it certainly doesn't make any sense in the context of using chemical weapons to kill somebody.

    Spies, informants and double-agents already know that they are taking their lives into their own hands. They already know that they could be assassinated if their handlers cut them loose or are not "on top of things".

    Besides, the system of spy and prisoner swaps is something that neither side wants to jeopardise. It's a valuable tool in one's arsenal when it comes to concessions, negotiations etc.

    Thinking that this was just an act of hot-headed, petty, bitchiness is naive in the extreme. You don't just murder (or worse botch a murder) someone where there is no gain and certainly don't do it if the consequences are negative for you.

    There was NOTHING to gain by killing a has-been like Skripal. Nothing and if they wanted him out of the way, truly, then he would have been killed stone dead and no trail would have led anywhere.


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    #45
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    It's confirmed to be Novichok by the Brits and OPCW. I doubt they know with 100% certainty exactly which Novichok it is, hell it could even be a slightly newer derivative, which is probably why they are being very careful with their wording.. hence "from the family of Novichoks" and so on



    How does it change?



    We still don't know, we aren't privy to all the details of the on-going investigation



    I can see where this is going, there's no "story" or "narrative" here, there is a sequence of events, some parts they are certain of, some parts of speculated (pending the investigation) and some parts are unknown (pending the investigation)

    e.g. there was a thread here on the Vegas shooting. Police determined early on that he acted alone. As an investigation goes on, it's possible for them to have information (and choose to release that information) and not have other information. It's also possible that some old information changes in light of new information.

    Conspiracy thinking often uses this to discredit the on-going findings of an event by making it appear that the "story" is changing.



    Yup, but depends on the dosage.



    According to what we know, police sealed the house - apparently the guinea pigs died and the cat had to be put down.



    Well someone did try to poison them with a military grade nerve agent..



    Dunno about that, but good.



    Nah twisting things a bit there. Porton Down may have suspicions but it's not their job to identify where exactly this was produced (that's the hard bit) only to identify what it was. Most politicians have been careful with their wording, using phrases like "highly likely". Boris - not so much.



    Your personal assertion.

    You've conveniently ignored my question with regards to the fact, a fact you've stated yourself on quite a few occasions, that the investigation is ongoing. If the investigation is ongoing then why have Russian diplomats been expelled?

    If Russian diplomats have been expelled because it is a 100% lock that Russia attempted to murder the Skripals then why the ongoing investigation?

    And if it's necessary to have an ongoing investigation then why the expulsions before the results of that investigation?

    These are VERY simple questions so I would appreciate it if you didn't fudge some answer such as "can't release the evidence on the grounds that it might jeopardise National Security" or some other such lame sop of an excuse.


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    #46
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,793 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    mcmoustache wrote: »
    I'm not sure. The mods would probably just send it over here. Then again, no harm to try - it's a busier place after all, not that i'll be engaging.

    If I recall, the last poster to bring it up there was permo banned

    Was worth a shot


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    #47
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    People who have set fringe world views are often unable to view events in an objective manner. They typically see the world in terms of sides, simplistic black/white narratives and will often distort information to fit that belief. For example when I was protesting against the Iraq war, I noticed there were extreme types who weren't just against architects of the war, they literally hated the countries involved (which makes no sense) by extension they felt they had to support Saddam (which makes even less sense)

    People with these mindsets have a tendency to support far-fetched conspiracies, not because they were true, but because these conspiracies implicate the entities they dislike and thus fit their belief system

    There is an even more extreme version of this; if there is e.g. a foreign attack on the soil of country X, Y, Z - because they dislike their personifications of these countries so much, they will, by nature, implicate these countries in the attack. Often by any means necessary. They will go to extremes of discrediting anything that doesn't implicate those countries, they will distort information, hide context, deliberately be untruthful

    What you're engaging in is non-sequiturs.

    When a country like the US attacks/invades another country for whatever reason, a reason I might add is seldom if ever the true motive, they embark upon a campaign of vilification, propaganda, distortion and fear mongering.

    The common reaction to suspicion, doubt and outrage regarding their less than altruistic motives is to paint the skeptics as either a. "anti-American", b. "pro-enemy" or c. both.

    People don't like to be played for fools and they don't like to be lied to. They also don't like to be marginalised because they can see that the Emperor has no clothes.

    You say you protested against the Iraq War. Can I ask what your reasons were?
    Were you convinced that America was simply destroying another country for monetary and hegemonic gain or was it something a little more banal?

    And if it was the former then how can you reconcile yourself with other slaughters that they have visited upon people, again for fiscal and geopolitical gain?


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    #48
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,793 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Chrongen wrote: »
    If the investigation is ongoing then why have Russian diplomats been expelled?

    Because they can

    The private intelligence is probably pretty convincing, it seemed to have a fairly immediate effect on a skeptical Trump and Macron. That aside, many countries are tired of Russia's information war and hybrid warfare, whch is a good as reason as any to boot out some intelligence agents diplomats


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    #49
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Polls show that a significant number of people across the Middle East do not believe the Holocaust happened

    This is an indicator of levels of education, prejudice, etc.

    Likewise according to a Russian poll, one third of Russians believe the sun travels around the earth. Again, levels of education.

    I personally know a significant number of people who have some belief in ghosts

    This is why we live in representative democracies, emphasis on representative.

    Dohnjoe,

    using the beliefs of the clueless does not nullify the doubts of the skeptics.

    That is a shabby trick on your part. It is scientifically proven that the Sun does not travel around the Earth yet some fools will still believe that it does. This does NOT mean that your belief that fairies DON'T exist are without base.

    A very poor attempt at a counter-argument.

    A sizeable proportion of people believed that there was a coverup surrounding events such as Bloody Sunday, The Guildford Four, The Hillsborough Disaster...and they were right. Because a coverup IS and WAS possible and was proven and exposed.

    The Sun going around the Earth is NOT possible so equating the two beliefs is disingenuous.


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    #50
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    I'm not the slightest bit surprised

    Well, personally, I believe the Holocaust occurred. The camps are there, the survivors are there, the accounts and stories are there. I wasn't alive at the time nor did I witness it but I'm pretty sure or at least I have to believe it happened, sadly.

    I do, however, have my questions about certain things that I have been told about the Holocaust. I suspect it has been exploited and embellished for political gain.

    I have my doubts about the numbers and I suspect Western collusion or at least acquiescence but that's another story.


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    #51
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    King Mob wrote: »
    And can we assume that you also subscribe to the idea the moon landing was faked?
    Is the Earth flat also?

    There's no need to be childish. You'd do better if you avoided the adolescent jibes in this discussion.


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    #52
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,793 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Chrongen wrote: »

    I have my doubts about the numbers

    Numbers of..?


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    #53
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Because they can

    The private intelligence is probably pretty convincing, it seemed to have a fairly immediate effect on a skeptical Trump and Macron. That aside, many countries are tired of Russia's information war and hybrid warfare, whch is a good as reason as any to boot out some intelligence agents diplomats


    Dohnjoe, now that is just a pitiful, pathetic explanation.

    "Because they can!"

    Have you any inkling about the intricacies of international diplomatic protocol? Do you think it's just like a bouncer refusing entry to some pub because he doesn't like the way the punter is dressed or the smell of his aftershave?

    Tell me why these governments expelled Russian diplomats, en masse. And don't give me some answer like "Because they can" or "Just because, whatever!"

    We are dealing with facts here, yet you seem addicted to the word "probably".

    They "probably" did it. The intelligence services "probably" or "likely" have the goods on them.

    Is that line really good enough for you?


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    #54
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Numbers of..?

    There have been questions about the numbers of casualties. Those are the numbers I'm referring to. 12 million, 6 million, 3 million. It's difficult to get a grasp on the veracity of the numbers, appalling as they may be.


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    #55
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,793 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Chrongen wrote: »
    There have been questions about the numbers of casualties. Those are the numbers I'm referring to. 12 million, 6 million, 3 million. It's difficult to get a grasp on the veracity of the numbers, appalling as they may be.

    Just go to Wiki, it's right there. Or any Jewish/Holocaust info site.


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    #56
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,793 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Chrongen wrote: »

    Tell me why these governments expelled Russian diplomats, en masse. And don't give me some answer like "Because they can" or "Just because, whatever!"

    Don't know what more to add, they did it. The non-public intelligence seemed to be a pretty compelling factor. The US just slapped a bunch of new sanctions on Russia based on their election meddling.


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    #57
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Because they can

    The private intelligence is probably pretty convincing, it seemed to have a fairly immediate effect on a skeptical Trump and Macron. That aside, many countries are tired of Russia's information war and hybrid warfare, whch is a good as reason as any to boot out some intelligence agents diplomats

    So if these diplomats are not in fact diplomats, but intelligence agents, as you are trying to maintain, then why were they not expelled long before the Salisbury episode and why wasn't a reason given for it?

    Dohnjoe, I don't know if you've ever seen that movie " A Few Good Men" but this reminds me of a courtroom exchange that went something like:

    "Colonel Jessup, if you ORDERED that Santiago wasn't to be touched, and your orders are ALWAYS followed, then why would he be in danger? Why the need to transfer him off the base?"

    I asked you a very simple question, one it appears you can't answer and you are giving lame excuses like "Well, the diplomats were probably spies so getting them out was a good thing!".

    Do you really think that is how things are done and/or should be done?

    Why the need for an episode like the Skripal affair in order to kick out diplomats or "spies", according to you? Why?

    Before you respond, I'd respectfully ask you to not stuff the word "probably" into your answer.


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    #58
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Numbers of..?

    Jews living in Europe in 1933 it was 9.3 million. About 2 million Jews people emigrated to foreign lands from 1933 to 1945 (this could be a low ball figure it might be even higher) Anyway that leaves 7.3 million.

    After the war the Jewish population of Europe was about 4 to 5 million people between 1945 to until 1950...

    2.3 million people missing or just unaccounted for? We forgetting though Europe was a battle zone. Civilians were massacred, whole towns and villages shelled and bombed, nobody can say for sure Jews were not casualties of war?


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    #59
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Just go to Wiki, it's right there. Or any Jewish/Holocaust info site.

    I'm not going to go to Wikipedia or any other site that hasn't been vetted through a clearing house. Wikipedia is fine for things like "what is the currency of Gabon" or "how many degrees are there in a triangle?"

    I'm not going to trust it for historical accounts. And that's all I want to discuss on the Holocaust matter within the realms of this debate.


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    #60
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,793 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Chrongen wrote: »
    So if these diplomats are not in fact diplomats, but intelligence agents, as you are trying to maintain, then why were they not expelled long before the Salisbury episode and why wasn't a reason given for it?

    Because they are "diplomats", same goes for every country. Embassies are well known to have a twin purpose, normal diplomatic activity and espionage/intelligence gathering

    Expelling diplomats is one tool that a government has to punish another government


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    #61
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,793 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Chrongen wrote: »

    I'm not going to trust it for historical accounts.

    Well you can rely on Wiki in this case, it's sourced. And correlates with e.g. Holocaust history sites.


This discussion has been closed.
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