De horning calves

lifelover2006 · 22-02-2010 9:26pm #1

over the past few years, I have turned more and more against de horning young calves. I think it's very hard on them especially the continental breeds who sometimes don't grow any horns til maybe 3 weeks old so it's very stressful on them.

half of me thinks it nearly easier to leave them til the autume at 6-8 months and just them with the crange or the saw.

would appreciate a bit of discussion on this one as have calves ready for doing now.

mossfort · 22-02-2010 11:16pm

i wouldnt reccomend leaving them till the autumn because skulling them is a lot harder on them than dehorning them without all the blood.
if your dehorning iron is hot enough they should be very easy to do when the buds first appear.

tismesoitis · 22-02-2010 11:21pm

i have to agree with u there but i think dehorning at a young age is the lesser of two evils. skulling is not only harn on beast but on man aswell especially when theres one that won't stop bleedin and has to be tied!!

greysides · 23-02-2010 12:05am

Do them early. Get someone to show you how to use local anaesthetic.
It only gets harder- on them and you!

mayoireland · 23-02-2010 12:15am

we use to leave them till autumn and it was the biggest mistake .blood and sore heads for days and a hole in there head for weeks.dehorning iron is the only way sore head for an hour

mysillyusername · 23-02-2010 12:19am

my dad left it till autumn one or twice..never again. The animals are too strong even at that age. No matter what you do with a saw some animals will bleed. It is just too stressful...

dar31 · 23-02-2010 12:59am

have to agree with all above the younger they are done the better easier on animal and man/woman
absolutely hate sculling them such a sorry site, at least half them bleed no matter what you do
luckily a local woman had a cure for them bleeding, with in an hour of calling her the bleeding would have stopped
a couple get through the net every year, but deliberately not dehorning young isn't right

Follow the Plan · 23-02-2010 1:10am

mysillyusername wrote: »

my dad left it till autumn one or twice..never again. The animals are too strong even at that age. No matter what you do with a saw some animals will bleed. It is just too stressful...

1st post and I hope its helps. Long time reader btw.

I echo the above poster feelings. A horrible job. Our vet ran an electric current thru the animals in the crush (anyone have a term for this procedure, It's illegal now) and it was easy saw the horn, then spray some kinda sealer on the butt, but it was very messy regards blood and it has to be an extreme painful and stress procedure on the cattle. I leave most of the calves till 4-6 weeks old( U'll always get the odd weaker one) and I then de horn them with a portable gas dehorner. If ur good on it U'll see one bleed in 20 in my experience. Caustic was another way my aunt used to do it but I think there's nothin to beat the gas dehorner. Hope this helps

pakalasa · 23-02-2010 9:21am

Under the Suckler Scheme, to do with without an aesthetic, you have to do them under 2 weeks, which is crazy.
I find there is a huge difference between the breeds and between heifers and bulls. A bull with shorthorn breeding will grow them a lot quicker than a charolais heifer. You need to have the bud about 1cm long (my vet told me this aswell). The first year I did them too early and ended up doing them again...crazy.
I also seal across the exposed flesh with a 'X' shape using the hot iron afterwards, it stops any bleeding. I spray a bit of iodine also - can't do any harm.
Do them when young - the lesser of two evils !!!!!

red_diesel · 23-02-2010 9:54am

We do them at about 5-6 weeks, really whenever there's a bud. Terrible job, its the one job I really detest. As said above, the lesser of two evils. There's alot to be said for Angus's!! You'd imagine in this days and age they'd be able to genetically engineer so as not to produce horns.
When we do them we usually completely remove the bud. I've read you don't actually have to do this, just burn around it. Anyone do the same?

wiggy123 · 23-02-2010 11:08am

angus's the only way..no horns--no work!or pain for them as calves/weanlings

red_diesel · 23-02-2010 11:51am

wiggy123 wrote: »

angus's the only way..no horns--no work!or pain for them as calves/weanlings

We only use easy calving angus bulls and they're usually very poor. Hardy calves alright but very small. Hard to make anything out of them.

wiggy123 · 23-02-2010 11:54am

well go for better angus bulls then, what cows do u have?

red_diesel · 23-02-2010 12:17pm

wiggy123 wrote: »

well go for better angus bulls then, what cows do u have?

We have Brtish Friesian mainly. Sometimes use Angus for heifers. I find Belgian Blue's a very good beef option for Friesian.

williemakeit · 23-02-2010 12:50pm

definitely debudding when young is the way forward,particularly if selling calves as weanlings.
on this subject does anyone have recommendations for calf dehorning crates. make, price and supplier.
cheers

wiggy123 · 23-02-2010 12:55pm

i'd agree...as skulling is cruel+dangerous for cattle+ man

westlander · 23-02-2010 2:39pm

red_diesel wrote: »

We do them at about 5-6 weeks, really whenever there's a bud. Terrible job, its the one job I really detest. As said above, the lesser of two evils. There's alot to be said for Angus's!! You'd imagine in this days and age they'd be able to genetically engineer so as not to produce horns.
When we do them we usually completely remove the bud. I've read you don't actually have to do this, just burn around it. Anyone do the same?

I burn them out but I dont go to the root....I usually scoop out the horn but theres a white base underneath so i mustnt be getting it all. But i havent seen any problems with this method yet!
Usually put sudocream on afterwards.

John_F · 23-02-2010 5:26pm

if you thinnk that doing them at calves is bad look at this video.. cruelty! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaF1PO-Pd2g

in New Zealand they get vets to dehorn

theroad · 23-02-2010 7:04pm

williemakeit wrote: »

on this subject does anyone have recommendations for calf dehorning crates. make, price and supplier.
cheers

came across this the other day on the web: http://www.ballinadee.com/?q=node/10
don't know if it's any good, but it looks like it might do the job. Anyone using one?

For dehorning, we give them the local anasthetic beforehand and goes fine - they don't act like they're in pain, anyway, and then aluminium spray afterwards to seal the wound - (almost) no bleeding.

John_F · 23-02-2010 7:18pm

theroad wrote: »

came across this the other day on the web: http://www.ballinadee.com/?q=node/10
don't know if it's any good, but it looks like it might do the job. Anyone using one?

For dehorning, we give them the local anasthetic beforehand and goes fine - they don't act like they're in pain, anyway, and then aluminium spray afterwards to seal the wound - (almost) no bleeding.

hope you mean alamycin spray

theroad · 23-02-2010 7:48pm

John_F wrote: »

hope you mean alamycin spray

nope, Aluspray. It's aluminium-dust-in-a-can and works like a bandage to seal a wound. Good stuff.

vanderbadger · 23-02-2010 8:02pm

theroad wrote: »

came across this the other day on the web: http://www.ballinadee.com/?q=node/10
don't know if it's any good, but it looks like it might do the job. Anyone using one?

For dehorning, we give them the local anasthetic beforehand and goes fine - they don't act like they're in pain, anyway, and then aluminium spray afterwards to seal the wound - (almost) no bleeding.

ya saw that advertised in journal, not sure about it, i think access to the side which is attached to gate might be tricky

Indubitable · 23-02-2010 8:10pm

I dehorn my calves as soon as possible.

Maybe you should consider a polled breed. you can get polled bulls for alot of breeds now. I used a polled Blonde D'Aquitaine bull so only my AI calves need dehorning. Polled variations of a breed tend to be quite hard found and cost more than a normal bull

mossfort · 23-02-2010 10:50pm

pakalasa wrote: »

Under the Suckler Scheme, to do with without an aesthetic, you have to do them under 2 weeks, which is crazy.
I find there is a huge difference between the breeds and between heifers and bulls. A bull with shorthorn breeding will grow them a lot quicker than a charolais heifer. You need to have the bud about 1cm long (my vet told me this aswell). The first year I did them too early and ended up doing them again...crazy.
I also seal across the exposed flesh with a 'X' shape using the hot iron afterwards, it stops any bleeding. I spray a bit of iodine also - can't do any harm.
Do them when young - the lesser of two evils !!!!!

i wouldnt recomend using iodine on any fresh wounds or for dehorning because it will keep the wound fresh.
i find aluspray the best because the cows cant lick it off.
i think its important to have some sort of easy release mechanism for the calfs head in the box to prevent injury.

John_F · 23-02-2010 11:04pm

theroad wrote: »

nope, Aluspray. It's aluminium-dust-in-a-can and works like a bandage to seal a wound. Good stuff.

jaaae,,, never heard of that now, learnt more on here than i did in college :rolleyes:

maidhcII · 23-02-2010 11:21pm

It is actually illegal to dehorn any calve over 14 days without an anaesthetic (and consequently a vet present!)

Not saying anyone does it, but worth throwing in there!

Indubitable · 24-02-2010 12:13am

John_F wrote: »

if you thinnk that doing them at calves is bad look at this video.. cruelty! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaF1PO-Pd2g

in New Zealand they get vets to dehorn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaF1PO-Pd2g
Your link didn't work.

That is horrible

reilig · 24-02-2010 11:06am

I managed to get a tube of dehorning paste from a supplier in Northern ireland for this year's calves. I do all calves before they're a week old. Its very simple, just clip the hair, make a circle with vaseline to keep the paste on the horn and rub on a tiny bit of paste with a spatula. Its a lot easier on the calves than the dehorning iron and it is very effective.

I tried a couple of times to buyt it down south, but can't find anywhere that sells it.

BeeDI · 24-02-2010 1:18pm

reilig wrote: »

I managed to get a tube of dehorning paste from a supplier in Northern ireland for this year's calves. I do all calves before they're a week old. Its very simple, just clip the hair, make a circle with vaseline to keep the paste on the horn and rub on a tiny bit of paste with a spatula. Its a lot easier on the calves than the dehorning iron and it is very effective.

I tried a couple of times to buyt it down south, but can't find anywhere that sells it.

Not legal to sell the paste or the dehorning sticks in the south. More bullsh1t for the box tickers to police.
I bought about 10 years supply before it went out:D
Lot less stressful on man and beast in my opinion.

B

haybob · 24-02-2010 8:30pm

I agree with you about dehorning as soon as possible, I have a good few angus and they are great but sometimes the X calfes can be a bit stronger when you can dehorn them

kingofthe3rdyrs wrote: »

I dehorn my calves as soon as possible.

Maybe you should consider a polled breed. you can get polled bulls for alot of breeds now. I used a polled Blonde D'Aquitaine bull so only my AI calves need dehorning. Polled variations of a breed tend to be quite hard found and cost more than a normal bull

lifelover2006 · 24-02-2010 8:38pm

reilig wrote: »

I managed to get a tube of dehorning paste from a supplier in Northern ireland for this year's calves. I do all calves before they're a week old. Its very simple, just clip the hair, make a circle with vaseline to keep the paste on the horn and rub on a tiny bit of paste with a spatula. Its a lot easier on the calves than the dehorning iron and it is very effective.

I tried a couple of times to buyt it down south, but can't find anywhere that sells it.

what is the name of this stuff. I travel a lot with my job and somethings up north too so thinking i could pick it up. I really wnat to try something different than de horning with hot iron this year

leg wax · 24-02-2010 9:08pm

lifelover2006 wrote: »

what is the name of this stuff. I travel a lot with my job and somethings up north too so thinking i could pick it up. I really wnat to try something different than de horning with hot iron this year

this product is not good for sucklers.:eek:

Indubitable · 24-02-2010 9:14pm

leg wax wrote: »

this product is not good for sucklers.:eek:

And why is that? Time consuming?

leg wax · 24-02-2010 9:28pm

kingofthe3rdyrs wrote: »

And why is that? Time consuming?

if you put it on a calf you will have to keep him away from the mother otherwise if he goes to suck he will rub off the cream and the cow will get burnt and you will have a cow kicking the crap out of herself thats why caustic has been stopped for horns animal welfare

krazyklown · 02-03-2010 7:12pm

lifelover2006 wrote: »

what is the name of this stuff. I travel a lot with my job and somethings up north too so thinking i could pick it up. I really wnat to try something different than de horning with hot iron this year

SH Plus
sshhhh some places in the south do have it....beneath the counter of course!

adne · 02-03-2010 10:14pm

leg wax wrote: »

if you put it on a calf you will have to keep him away from the mother otherwise if he goes to suck he will rub off the cream and the cow will get burnt and you will have a cow kicking the crap out of herself thats why caustic has been stopped for horns animal welfare

knit a cap for the calf

;)

Indubitable · 02-03-2010 10:31pm

adne wrote: »

knit a cap for the calf ;)

Do i hear a dragon's den business idea coming to mind?
I will get my granny on design and production right away!
She is very old at this stage so her max production will be quite low

dar31 · 02-03-2010 10:38pm

adne wrote: »

knit a cap for the calf ;)

premierman · 25-03-2010 11:43pm

kingofthe3rdyrs wrote: »

I dehorn my calves as soon as possible.

Maybe you should consider a polled breed. you can get polled bulls for alot of breeds now. I used a polled Blonde D'Aquitaine bull so only my AI calves need dehorning. Polled variations of a breed tend to be quite hard found and cost more than a normal bull

premierman,
Wonder where you got your polled blonde bull,I like blonde cattle but hate dehorning and anything for an easier life !

Rjas · 26-03-2010 12:53am

asked da vet for da costic stuff for calves. he gav me a white tube wit french writting on it, and a brown paste inside, when da calves were 2 days old i clipped of a bit a hair and put on a little drop of this stuff where u could just about feel da buds and ther's no sign of horns 8 wks on. its no hassel for cow, calf or yourself

rctn1904 · 26-03-2010 11:17am

The Lignocaine and Adrenaline (Norocaine) that was used and excellent is no longer licensed for use in bovines. The currently licensed products (eg Willcaine)*(under Special licence -AR16) require the vet to have that special licence even though in the uk it is available without a prescription.
Willcaine requires a time lapse for anaesthetic and so is more difficult to use.
But if you are using Norocaine be aware it is an offence and any breach of the Animal Remedies Regs is a criminal offence so be very careful.
The dehorning sticks are no longer legal on animal welfare grounds.
When considering dehorning when the animals are older remember you also put you own health at risk.

galway79 · 29-03-2010 4:08pm

rctn1904 wrote: »

The Lignocaine and Adrenaline (Norocaine) that was used and excellent is no longer licensed for use in bovines. The currently licensed products (eg Willcaine)*(under Special licence -AR16) require the vet to have that special licence even though in the uk it is available without a prescription.
Willcaine requires a time lapse for anaesthetic and so is more difficult to use.
But if you are using Norocaine be aware it is an offence and any breach of the Animal Remedies Regs is a criminal offence so be very careful.
The dehorning sticks are no longer legal on animal welfare grounds.
When considering dehorning when the animals are older remember you also put you own health at risk.

more over regulation and BS that was a great product

yessam · 29-03-2010 9:45pm

theroad wrote: »

came across this the other day on the web: http://www.ballinadee.com/?q=node/10
don't know if it's any good, but it looks like it might do the job. Anyone using one?

For dehorning, we give them the local anasthetic beforehand and goes fine - they don't act like they're in pain, anyway, and then aluminium spray afterwards to seal the wound - (almost) no bleeding.

Buy a proper sculling crate when you are at it, one that will hold a calf 3-4 weeks old and not hurt everone around him. That yoke would be ok for calves 3-4 days old and would break every gate you put it on. remember your calves will be at least 3 weeks old before being fit for de-horning.

De-horning with a gas de-horner is the best way to go. Have it very hot and scoop bud fully out quickly.

I must admit that is some skulling gate they have in the Australian video. Cruel though compared to de-horning being done properly

bbam · 29-03-2010 10:00pm

We dehorned ourselves for the first time at the weekend... New electric dehorner which worked great..
We hadn't a crate but we adjusted another setting on the skulling gate for calves and it worked a treat..

We didn't "scoop the bud fully out" this isn't recommended although I've seen it done loads...

mickos · 30-03-2010 8:40pm

rctn1904 wrote: »

.
The dehorning sticks are no longer legal on animal welfare grounds.
When considering dehorning when the animals are older remember you also put you own health at risk.

There is 1 company with a dehorning paste available again, but only as a POM remedy. They only got a limited licence from what I'm told for 500 tubs. There is another company which has been supplying SHplus paste illegally ever since the ban came in.
Personally I can't see why the product was banned in the 1st place, surely its no more of a distress on the calf than using a dehorning iron heated to 700 or 800 degrees.

LostCovey · 06-05-2010 12:13am

mickos wrote: »

There is 1 company with a dehorning paste available again, but only as a POM remedy. They only got a limited licence from what I'm told for 500 tubs. There is another company which has been supplying SHplus paste illegally ever since the ban came in.
Personally I can't see why the product was banned in the 1st place, surely its no more of a distress on the calf than using a dehorning iron heated to 700 or 800 degrees.

I have seen calves DESTROYED with it. It's not great even in experienced hands.

Chemical burn, thermal burn - there's not a lot to choose. I think I would prefer the thermal burn, over in a minute. That other stuff burns them for days, runs down their face and burns the cow (in the wrong hands). Or doesn't work because not enough was used.

I hate it. I used to use caustic in the good ol' days, it was better, but not much.

LostCovey

bogman_bass · 06-05-2010 1:14am

in my experience the electric irons are the best job. Gas irons dont seem to get as hot.

and that is some crush in that video, and some bear of a man doing the skulling.

that branding craic is cruel as F%$^. Reason enough for the yellow tags!

djmc · 06-05-2010 11:10pm

Just wondering how do ye dehorn calves the way I was thougth was to remove the bud with a gas dehorner but I remember reading somewhere that you dont have to get the bud out just burn around it
I havent tried this yet in case it does not work but it would be easier if it did on man and animal

Bodacious · 09-05-2010 11:58pm

red_diesel wrote: »

We do them at about 5-6 weeks, really whenever there's a bud. Terrible job, its the one job I really detest. As said above, the lesser of two evils. There's alot to be said for Angus's!! You'd imagine in this days and age they'd be able to genetically engineer so as not to produce horns.
When we do them we usually completely remove the bud. I've read you don't actually have to do this, just burn around it. Anyone do the same?

Hi,

I do alot of calves and have completely stopped gouging them out as before, a good burn direct on top in a circular motion for 10-15 seconds to leave the copper ring is sufficient and they fall off in couple of weeks. I agree its horrible across the board but minor in comparison to some skulling i've witnessed, younger the better once bud established

PANADOL · 10-05-2010 7:14pm

Dehorning paste anybody? (caustic soda) one application

valtra2 · 11-05-2010 10:40pm

you could get a polled bull and you will not have any horns on calves and you can get any breed bull not just angus

De horning calves

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