Why I remain staunch FF

Sulmac · 29-05-2010 2:10pm

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Yes we've definitely turned a corner (see attachment). Just as it's impossible to 'talk our selves into a recession' it's also impossible to spin & bluff your way out of one

Not only have we turned a corner, we've reached a turning point! :eek:

Does that mean we're going back? :pac:

Hammered hippie · 29-05-2010 4:36pm

scr123 wrote: »

Its two years now since the economy began to collapse around our ankles. The property bubble burst as expected and the economy went in to recession as expected it would at some stage. At that moment what we didnt know was the extent of the problems at the banks.Two years of economic, political and social upheaval but it looks as if there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are people who want to smash that light but their political agenda is easily read and they will not succeed..
I want a change of government because its wrong to have a one party State, FF have gone stale and because FF have been at fault in too many areas. However, when I look to my left I see Labour and a concoction of extremists whose economic policies revolve around TAX AND SPEND. Look to my right and I see Fine Gael who have economic policies of NO TAX AND NO SPEND. Economically, politically and socially the Left and Right are so far apart the thoughts of them in government together is terrifying..
I have read and listened to all the attacks of FF and they are being repeated ad nauseum. Life is about words like balance, equilibrium, negotiation, compromise, hope, optimism, solutions, confidence and more. I see nothing coming from the Left or Right that will resolve the problems facing this country and under the circumstances I remain staunch FF

You talk about words like balance, equilibrium, compromise etc. etc. That is not the impression I got when it came to the relationship between banks, politicians and developers the last few years of the boom.
That was about greed, ignorance, boasting, uncompromised money spending, unbalanced loans etc. etc.
So explain to me again why you remain a staunch FF supporter?
Is it maybe because FF stands for Financial Friendsclub?

Colonel Sanders · 29-05-2010 6:33pm

From The Irish Examiner April 17 2007:

FF promises to ‘virtually eliminate’ debt

Some gems:

IRELAND will be a debt-free nation and will have a radically overhauled tax system if Fianna Fáil are re-elected to Government

Hmmmm :rolleyes:

it repeated its Árd Fheis promises of cutting the standard rate of income tax by 2% to 18% and reducing the higher rate by 1% at a cost of €840 million per annum.

Happy days. I suppose this was planned to be paid for by making us even more reliant on 'windfall taxes' from the likes of stamp duty & VAT etc

He added that maintaining budget surpluses, a declining Government debt and a net debt burden of less than 3% of GDP by 2012 were FF’s key priorities.

Ah shur, I suppose NAMA is off balance sheet isn't it :rolleyes:

If Ireland ever faces into a global economic downturn, we will act prudently as before. We will deliver this country through any downturn with health fundamentals intact — that is, to maintain the lowest employment, lowest taxes and highest growth in Europe,” said Mr Ahern.

Ironic mis-quote/slip of the pen

He deemed the National Development Plan (NDP) the most important priority for investment.

I suppose at that stage he didn't know that they'd need to throw the entire fiscal might of the country at bailing out the elite golden circle

Reiterating the party’s stance on stamp duty, Mr Cowen said the party would not do anything to disrupt the property market.

I almost fell off my chair laughing at this one :rolleyes:

trapsagenius · 29-05-2010 9:11pm

Fr0g wrote: »

The Rainbow coalition of 94 to 97 was one of the most successful governments we have ever had. They managed to grow the economy (creating 1000 jobs a week) while keeping inflation below 2%. They brought in the first budget surplus in 28 years. This was an economy based on sound fundamentals i.e. manufaturing and exports. As soon as FF got into power they completely lost the run of themselves slashing taxes and increasing spending to the extent that inflation spiralled out of control reaching almost 7% within 3 years of FF taking power. I have no problem voting FG or Labour based on their previous record.

And someone called me a revisionist (on a different thread)!

That coalition did a really bang up job on crime and NI didn't they?

The economy, while they didn't mess it up (which is maybe a bigger an achievement than some people give them credit for, when you look at what has happened recently), was simply following a train of events initiated in the late 80s and helped along the way by Reynolds.I think I'm correct in saying that the term "Celtic Tiger" was first coined under Reynolds administration.Unemployment was still something like 10 per cent when they left office(anyone have a link so I can confirm this, actually?)

Not our worst administration by a long shot, but "one of our most successful" is stretching the truth to absolute breaking point.

Liam Byrne · 29-05-2010 11:53pm

trapsagenius wrote: »

That coalition did a really bang up job on crime and NI didn't they?

At least they didn't promise "zero tolerance" (while the funds were there to implement it) and then refuse point-blank to even attempt it!

Of course, proper "zero tolerance", if implemented, would have meant that a few of their mates (and possibly a few of themselves) would have been first in line.

Zombrex · 30-05-2010 12:09pm

scr123 wrote: »

Its two years now since the economy began to collapse around our ankles. The property bubble burst as expected and the economy went in to recession as expected it would at some stage. At that moment what we didnt know was the extent of the problems at the banks.Two years of economic, political and social upheaval but it looks as if there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are people who want to smash that light but their political agenda is easily read and they will not succeed..
I want a change of government because its wrong to have a one party State, FF have gone stale and because FF have been at fault in too many areas. However, when I look to my left I see Labour and a concoction of extremists whose economic policies revolve around TAX AND SPEND. Look to my right and I see Fine Gael who have economic policies of NO TAX AND NO SPEND. Economically, politically and socially the Left and Right are so far apart the thoughts of them in government together is terrifying..
I have read and listened to all the attacks of FF and they are being repeated ad nauseum. Life is about words like balance, equilibrium, negotiation, compromise, hope, optimism, solutions, confidence and more. I see nothing coming from the Left or Right that will resolve the problems facing this country and under the circumstances I remain staunch FF

So you want to stay with FF because the other parties have plans and policies which scare you and FF don't have plans or policies, and thus can't scare you.

Brilliant :rolleyes:

Biggins · 31-05-2010 8:18am

Originally Posted by scr123
I have one main reason why I cannot vote for any part of the Opposition, THEY TERRIFY ME !
I could write pages of why I will not vote other than FF but talking to a wall of intolerance is a waste of time.

What I will say is this, once the next GE is over watch the unemployment figures climb to somewhere between 700000 to 800000. Watch the destruction of confidence in the business community.

The Polls suggest the electorate wants to punish FF
This is the same arrogant electorate, mainly the Opposition, who punished FF by voting No in first Lisbon Treaty referendum

The same arrogant electorate who 18 months or so later realised their blunder and voted 2 to 1 in favour of the Treaty

Yes I say FF need a break from Government but holy god the next 4 years is not the time to get rid of them and put in place a concoction with a sickening record of failure

That alone I was going to post in retort too but (1) others have done that well and (2) its so damn stupid and funny, I'm too busy laughting to be able to type any more.
LOL
Back in a while LOL...

Het-Field · 31-05-2010 11:56am

scr123 wrote: »

Its two years now since the economy began to collapse around our ankles. The property bubble burst as expected and the economy went in to recession as expected it would at some stage. At that moment what we didnt know was the extent of the problems at the banks.Two years of economic, political and social upheaval but it looks as if there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are people who want to smash that light but their political agenda is easily read and they will not succeed..
I want a change of government because its wrong to have a one party State, FF have gone stale and because FF have been at fault in too many areas. However, when I look to my left I see Labour and a concoction of extremists whose economic policies revolve around TAX AND SPEND. Look to my right and I see Fine Gael who have economic policies of NO TAX AND NO SPEND. Economically, politically and socially the Left and Right are so far apart the thoughts of them in government together is terrifying..
I have read and listened to all the attacks of FF and they are being repeated ad nauseum. Life is about words like balance, equilibrium, negotiation, compromise, hope, optimism, solutions, confidence and more. I see nothing coming from the Left or Right that will resolve the problems facing this country and under the circumstances I remain staunch FF

Negotiation/Compromise. : Where Bertie Ahern signed away the public purse, and put private commercial operators under intense financial strain by virture of his flawed model of social partnership, and his unsustainable wage agreements.

I also note that you make the same mistake that all Government proponants do. While i agree that Labour and Fine Gael have many differences, it must also be noted that FF and Labour have the same difficulties when it comes to deciding what constitutes fair financial austerity. Many members of FF forget that it WILL be the Labour Party which props them up should they return to Government in 2012. The Green's will be decimated, and the possibility of an overall majority is laughable in the extreme. I would also be greatly concerned that FF's "compromise" would lead to them rolling over in front of the Labour Party to keep them in Government. Between 1994-1997 the Rainbow Coalition was solid and was rarely under threat. Thus, I dont really buy into this idea that we should use the 1980s coalitions as benchmarks.

What you have written no intrinsic merit from a FF perspective. It is a re-packaged rant about the opposition, with no positive reinforcement of FF policies. This type of rant has turned me off voting again for FF, which I have done for my life. FF have been put in a difficult position by the international and domestic crisis, however, the most I have heard from people like you is the old chestnut .... "if you think its bad now, just wait till you get those guys". This is not based on anything empirical, it is subjective opinion, which is sometimes scewed by personal bias. You will need to do a lot better then that to convince me to remain "staunch FF"

Het-Field · 31-05-2010 12:09pm

scr123 wrote: »

For two years now in the real world I have asked those critical of FF three questions:
1 How exactly did FF ruin the country
2 What would they have done
3 What will they do to restore the economy

On question 1 they will go on for hours badmouthing FF
Ask them to turn to 2 and 3 they totally and utterly refuse to engage and instead continue badmouthing FF.

Why should I even remotely contemplate the Opposition as an alternative to FF ?

I have no choice but to continue voting FF and this is a deplorable situation

1.
(a) Unsustainable wage agreements.
(b) Ramping up public expenditure by 10%+ per annum while keeping taxes low to hedge their bets with the lobbiests who seek to have low taxes or high spending.
(c)Claiming that we were living off current funds, which were in fact the unsustainable yields of the property bubble, which was stoked by Bertie Ahern and our current Taoiseach.
(d)Abolising our competitive edge by setting prohibitive minimum wages, rolling out broadband at a snail's pace, the prohibitive price of Land Rents, and failing to adequatly deal with PRSI payments.
(e)Using budget 2001/2002 as a pre-election sweetner, and then bowing to media pressure between 2004-2007 when the media began getting on their backs about being "miserly". Again, Bertie's "negotiation and balance" were not displayed as he bowed to pressure and handed out all sorts of goodies which no sensible economy should be doing
(f)Ignoring the factors of productivity to live off the fruits of the property bubble, which put us in great debt for years to come.
(G)Light touch banking regulation which was either a deliberate practive persued by the government to stoke the bubble, or it was downright stupidity on their part. Either way, it is not good.

"What would they have done".

Completely irrelevant. They were not in government at the time. It is a red herring argument, which is used to propogate the myth that we would be as badly in the s**t today if they were in Government. The reality is we dont know how badly we would be in it, because they were not in government.

That is just some of what was done. You can talk about being terrified by the opposition, however, when there is no evidence to suggest that they would do any worse

Fr0g · 31-05-2010 12:42pm

trapsagenius wrote: »

And someone called me a revisionist (on a different thread)!

That coalition did a really bang up job on crime and NI didn't they?

drops in crime figures lag behind prosperity it is a result of the policies that go back 10/20 years previously. The failure to tackle the drug problem of the 70s/80s had long term effects on other crimes.

I believe that the IRA preferred to do business with FF rather than FG.

trapsagenius wrote: »

The economy, while they didn't mess it up (which is maybe a bigger an achievement than some people give them credit for, when you look at what has happened recently), was simply following a train of events initiated in the late 80s and helped along the way by Reynolds.I think I'm correct in saying that the term "Celtic Tiger" was first coined under Reynolds administration.Unemployment was still something like 10 per cent when they left office(anyone have a link so I can confirm this, actually?)

The best you can hope from a government is that they improve on the last one which they did. While unemployment was still very high the important thing is that it was dropping.

trapsagenius wrote: »

Not our worst administration by a long shot, but "one of our most successful" is stretching the truth to absolute breaking point.

I was working during the rainbow coalition and I can tell you it was the first time that I started to feel wealthy. The tax cuts actually put more money in your pocket because the government managed to keep inflation down.

Contrast that with the next government who, like I say, lost the run of themselves flooding an overheated economy with money driving inflation up.
The price of everything went up, which in turn drove up wage inflation losing our competitiveness in the process.

I stand by my assertion.

i57dwun4yb1pt8 · 31-05-2010 5:33pm

'staunchly'

is another word for :

' i am a moron, and this is my wife '

trapsagenius · 31-05-2010 9:41pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

At least they didn't promise "zero tolerance" (while the funds were there to implement it) and then refuse point-blank to even attempt it!

Of course, proper "zero tolerance", if implemented, would have meant that a few of their mates (and possibly a few of themselves) would have been first in line.

Well in fairness I think that there was an increase in Garda numbers from 1997 to 2002 so I think they at least tried to implement the zero tolerance policy.

Fr0g wrote: »

drops in crime figures lag behind prosperity it is a result of the policies that go back 10/20 years previously. The failure to tackle the drug problem of the 70s/80s had long term effects on other crimes.

I don't know whether you're a FGer or whether you just simply liked the rainbow coalition, but blaming "the past" or "inherited problems", is actually quite a typical FG response.However bad things were in the 80s, things like the murders of Veronica Guerin and Jerry McCabe were not happening.Such killings threatened the security of the state.While the criminals themselves obviously deserve the lion's share of the blame, the coalition didn't really do anything to try to get to grips with the crime problem.I think after on of the murders, Joan Burton made comments to the effect that they had to get tough on the "causes of crime".What a fvcking joke.

Fr0g wrote: »

I believe that the IRA preferred to do business with FF rather than FG.

This was Bruton's own fault, because he made no effort to win the trust of the Republicans.I think it was Gerry Adams who said around that time (I'm paraphrasing here) that it was a FF led government who initiated the peace process, and a FG led one who squandered it.Draw your own conclusions.

Fr0g wrote: »

The best you can hope from a government is that they improve on the last one which they did. While unemployment was still very high the important thing is that it was dropping.

I was working during the rainbow coalition and I can tell you it was the first time that I started to feel wealthy. The tax cuts actually put more money in your pocket because the government managed to keep inflation down.

Contrast that with the next government who, like I say, lost the run of themselves flooding an overheated economy with money driving inflation up.
The price of everything went up, which in turn drove up wage inflation losing our competitiveness in the process.

Well, I agree with you to an extent, because that FG government certainly didn't do a bad job on the economy.But I just think you're giving them too much credit.The main thing they did was not mess up the progress made previously, and it also has to be said that Ruairi Quinn was a very, very good Finance minister.I don't think they were a bad administration by any means, just not one of our most successful.

Fr0g wrote: »

I stand by my assertion.

Hey, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I just disagree.

Liam Byrne · 31-05-2010 9:58pm

trapsagenius wrote: »

Well in fairness I think that there was an increase in Garda numbers from 1997 to 2002 so I think they at least tried to implement the zero tolerance policy.

Please tell me you're being ironic ? They can't even implement "zero tolerance" within their own party, let alone a whole country!

trapsagenius · 31-05-2010 10:05pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Please tell me you're being ironic ? They can't even implement "zero tolerance" within their own party, let alone a whole country!

Well I think a Garda increase is proof they tried, it's just they failed.

thebman · 31-05-2010 10:16pm

trapsagenius wrote: »

Well I think a Garda increase is proof they tried, it's just they failed.

Garda increase is more evidence that to sustain levels with an expanding population, increase was essential.

I think there is little evidence of them trying to make the gardai become more efficient and little evidence they tried to get ahead of the curve but more maintain services at their existing levels which arguably they have managed to achieve.

Certainly the traffic corps or fine giving and cash making portion of the gardai has increased but what about the serious crime wings when gang crime is continually on the rise in this country?

trapsagenius · 31-05-2010 10:22pm

thebman wrote: »

Garda increase is more evidence that to sustain levels with an expanding population, increase was essential.

I think there is little evidence of them trying to make the gardai become more efficient and little evidence they tried to get ahead of the curve but more maintain services at their existing levels which arguably they have managed to achieve.

Certainly the traffic corps or fine giving and cash making portion of the gardai has increased but what about the serious crime wings when gang crime is continually on the rise in this country?

Hey, I'm not trying to say FF did a good job on crime.In fact I know that they didn't.It's just I think they did make some effort to tackle crime.

Liam Byrne · 31-05-2010 10:33pm

trapsagenius wrote: »

Hey, I'm not trying to say FF did a good job on crime.In fact I know that they didn't.It's just I think they did make some effort to tackle crime.

Votes of confidence in their own con-men indicate otherwise.

Biggins · 31-05-2010 10:57pm

trapsagenius wrote: »

Hey, I'm not trying to say FF did a good job on crime.In fact I know that they didn't.It's just I think they did make some effort to tackle crime.

Sadly, they did more damage to fighting crime than the efforts of good.

Closed stations, closed training units, killed off a computerised database system that would find and share information, killed overtime for investigative officers, cut garda transports, the list goes on...

Fr0g · 01-06-2010 10:15am

trapsagenius, I don't have strong affiliations with any party. In fact my opinion is that anyone who does is politically, economically and sociologically naive. Politicians are a cancer on society in my opinion. Those that start out with high ideals eventually succumb to the lure of power and money. Most get into politics only for the power and money. We do however have to work with what we've got.

A government that ends its term having done more good than harm is very rare in my experience on this island. My initial response in this thread was to dispel the fearmongering among FF supporters that the opposition in power was a frightening thought. I hope I have gone some way to allaying those fears.

There seems to be a concerted effort on this board and on p.ie from FF supporters to focus attention on the opposition because they are failing miserably to defend their own party. Particularly when headlines like these seem to be all too common.

nama-the truth - its a bailout for developers

Callely got €80,000 mileage from Cork

Het-Field · 01-06-2010 11:53am

Fr0g wrote: »

trapsagenius, I don't have strong affiliations with any party. In fact my opinion is that anyone who does is politically, economically and sociologically naive. Politicians are a cancer on society in my opinion. Those that start out with high ideals eventually succumb to the lure of power and money. Most get into politics only for the power and money. We do however have to work with what we've got.

A government that ends its term having done more good than harm is very rare in my experience on this island. My initial response in this thread was to dispel the fearmongering among FF supporters that the opposition in power was a frightening thought. I hope I have gone some way to allaying those fears.

There seems to be a concerted effort on this board and on p.ie from FF supporters to focus attention on the opposition because they are failing miserably to defend their own party. Particularly when headlines like these seem to be all too common.

nama-the truth - its a bailout for developers

Callely got €80,000 mileage from Cork

Shocking thing about Callaly is that he is only in the Oireachtas thanks to his Northside buddy Ahern. He lost out on election to the Dail, and then he failed to be elected to the Seanad. So Bertie puts him in anyway.

If this is true, it is another disgrace. However, that wont stop Mr Callely seeking our votes in 2012.

orourkeda · 01-06-2010 12:05pm

scr123 wrote: »

Its two years now since the economy began to collapse around our ankles. The property bubble burst as expected and the economy went in to recession as expected it would at some stage. At that moment what we didnt know was the extent of the problems at the banks.Two years of economic, political and social upheaval but it looks as if there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are people who want to smash that light but their political agenda is easily read and they will not succeed..
I want a change of government because its wrong to have a one party State, FF have gone stale and because FF have been at fault in too many areas. However, when I look to my left I see Labour and a concoction of extremists whose economic policies revolve around TAX AND SPEND. Look to my right and I see Fine Gael who have economic policies of NO TAX AND NO SPEND. Economically, politically and socially the Left and Right are so far apart the thoughts of them in government together is terrifying..
I have read and listened to all the attacks of FF and they are being repeated ad nauseum. Life is about words like balance, equilibrium, negotiation, compromise, hope, optimism, solutions, confidence and more. I see nothing coming from the Left or Right that will resolve the problems facing this country and under the circumstances I remain staunch FF

The last four words of this post demonstrate why this country IS and WILL CONTINUE TO BE absolutely f*cked as long as the FF party are allowed to participate in the Governing of this country. FF have practically bankrupted this nation and do not have the brain power to turn it around.

scr123 · 01-06-2010 2:52pm

Het-Field wrote: »

1.
(a) Unsustainable wage agreements.
(b) Ramping up public expenditure by 10%+ per annum while keeping taxes low to hedge their bets with the lobbiests who seek to have low taxes or high spending.
(c)Claiming that we were living off current funds, which were in fact the unsustainable yields of the property bubble, which was stoked by Bertie Ahern and our current Taoiseach.
(d)Abolising our competitive edge by setting prohibitive minimum wages, rolling out broadband at a snail's pace, the prohibitive price of Land Rents, and failing to adequatly deal with PRSI payments.
(e)Using budget 2001/2002 as a pre-election sweetner, and then bowing to media pressure between 2004-2007 when the media began getting on their backs about being "miserly". Again, Bertie's "negotiation and balance" were not displayed as he bowed to pressure and handed out all sorts of goodies which no sensible economy should be doing
(f)Ignoring the factors of productivity to live off the fruits of the property bubble, which put us in great debt for years to come.
(G)Light touch banking regulation which was either a deliberate practive persued by the government to stoke the bubble, or it was downright stupidity on their part. Either way, it is not good.

"What would they have done".

They were not in government at the time. It is a red herring argument, which is used to propogate the myth that we would be as badly in the s**t today if they were in Government. The reality is we dont know how badly we would be in it, because they were not in government.

That is just some of what was done. You can talk about being terrified by the opposition, however, when there is no evidence to suggest that they would do any worse

Completely irrelevant.

These two words describe exactly what the electorate have thought of the Opposition in the last 6 elections. Obviously, its also clear the Opposition believe its completely irrelevant what the electorate think of what might have been and what will be in the future. As the days and weeks go by the chances of FF winning the next election are steadily increasing and the main reason of the shambles that represents itself as an alternative government

jmayo · 01-06-2010 4:18pm

scr123 wrote: »

Completely irrelevant.

These two words describe exactly what the electorate have thought of the Opposition in the last 6 elections. Obviously, its also clear the Opposition believe its completely irrelevant what the electorate think of what might have been and what will be in the future. As the days and weeks go by the chances of FF winning the next election are steadily increasing and the main reason of the shambles that represents itself as an alternative government

The more I read your posts the more I subscribe to what my father always said.
"the only ones that stayed in Ireland were the lucky already rich, the connected ones and the eejits, the rest were given the boat"

I am not quiet sure which group you belong to, but how anyone can say the opposition are a shambles and then proudly nay arrogantly state they will vote for what must surely be the most expensive shambles of a government that this state has ever had the misfortune to have been governed by, not to mention it includes the top levels from the previous pathetic regime, is truly mind boggling to me.

It appears that supporting ff is akin to believing in a religion, whose leadership will still be supported, even venerated, no matter what wrongs they perpetrate.

Het-Field · 01-06-2010 4:38pm

scr123 wrote: »

Completely irrelevant.

These two words describe exactly what the electorate have thought of the Opposition in the last 6 elections. Obviously, its also clear the Opposition believe its completely irrelevant what the electorate think of what might have been and what will be in the future. As the days and weeks go by the chances of FF winning the next election are steadily increasing and the main reason of the shambles that represents itself as an alternative government

The paupacy of your response says it all. I have argued with HJordan about the fact that we are living in exceptional times, and exceptional circumstances. This means that the next election will not be fought on platitudes or auction politics. It will be about cuts and it will be about pain sharing. In 1987 FG announced that they were going to have to keep cutting and FF announced that nothing would be cut. Once Haughey and McSharry saw the books they thought otherwise, and fiscal rectitude was the order of the day. FG are allowed use that this time, but FF cannot. They have gone down the road of austerity, and cannot try and pull it back from the brink in the name of electioneering.

Second, you have not addressed the fact that a plethora of public sector workers, the 450,000 private sector employees (now unemployed), countless jobless graduates, and the elderley will not look at FG/Lab and rubbish them and return to FF. That happened in 2007, when FG/Lab didnt make the advancement that it needed to. In 2012 the hardships which have been placed on the people of Ireland by governmental incompetence will be remembered. This will ensure that people will turn away.

Equally, how they heck will FF redress the commanding lead of FG/Lab ? There is NO WAY that FF will get an overall majority, and the Greens wil be decimated. Equally, if FF lose the numbers that they are expected to lose there will not be enough gene pool FFers to prop them up. As such your assertions of a FF victory are spurious. The evidence points at FG/Lab.

I think you are the BIFFO style of FF who have such a blinding hatred of FG that you cannot see the wood from the trees, otherwise the evidence would have had you running a mile from remaining "staunchly FF"

bamboozle · 01-06-2010 5:00pm

Het-Field wrote: »

Shocking thing about Callaly is that he is only in the Oireachtas thanks to his Northside buddy Ahern. He lost out on election to the Dail, and then he failed to be elected to the Seanad. So Bertie puts him in anyway.

If this is true, it is another disgrace. However, that wont stop Mr Callely seeking our votes in 2012.

sure he inflicted his son on us in the last local elections, Callelly's a leech this country does not need.
i wouldnt be suprised if Bertie promised to look after him if he resigned quietly as Junior Minister after being exposed for getting his house redecorated.

bamboozle · 01-06-2010 5:03pm

anyone who could still even consider voting for the party that has destroyed the economy of this country for generations to come and lead to mass emigration of our youth needs to have their head examined.

i wont even go into the nepotism, cronyism, greed, inflated salaries etc etc that underpinned the country under FF.

Fr0g · 01-06-2010 5:59pm

bamboozle wrote: »

i wouldnt be suprised if Bertie promised to look after him if he resigned quietly as Junior Minister after being exposed for getting his house redecorated.

Yes, thats how it works, "sure lay for a while, wait till it blows over and i'll see you right"

Liam Byrne · 01-06-2010 6:44pm

scr123 wrote: »

These two words describe exactly what the electorate have thought of the Opposition in the last 6 elections.

What "electorate" would that be ? The electorate that didn't give FG an overall majority, but didn't give one to FF for the last few elections either ?

scr123 wrote: »

Obviously, its also clear the Opposition believe its completely irrelevant what the electorate think of what might have been and what will be in the future.

I thought I was getting used to you not making sense, but that sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

scr123 wrote: »

As the days and weeks go by the chances of FF winning the next election are steadily increasing and the main reason of the shambles that represents itself as an alternative government

On what planet ?

People who are "staunchly" a party won't even bother to look at the facts and evaluate the best option, but there are thankfully enough people starting to see FF for what they are.

It might be too little too late, considering some of them voted FF in last time and helped land us in this mess, but at least it's some progress and can give us some hope for the future.

Sean Quagmire · 02-06-2010 12:17pm

bamboozle wrote: »

anyone who could still even consider voting for the party that has destroyed the economy of this country for generations to come and lead to mass emigration of our youth needs to have their head examined.

i wont even go into the nepotism, cronyism, greed, inflated salaries etc etc that underpinned the country under FF.

I completly agree with you, but who would you vote for if you dont mind me asking?

I despise FF for the complete shambles they have caused in this country, and it is their fault. But what alternatives do we have?

FG, Labour - The more time I spend listening to them the less faith I have in them. Its worrying when there are 4 or 5 parties to choose from and they are all as bad as each other.

bamboozle · 02-06-2010 12:28pm

Sean Quagmire wrote: »

I completly agree with you, but who would you vote for if you dont mind me asking?

I despise FF for the complete shambles they have caused in this country, and it is their fault. But what alternatives do we have?

FG, Labour - The more time I spend listening to them the less faith I have in them. Its worrying when there are 4 or 5 parties to choose from and they are all as bad as each other.

as far as i'm concered my local bridge club would do a better job than FF. If you look at the FF front bench there are 6 teachers there, i wont say former teachers as some of them have still got their teaching jobs kept on hold for them should they fail to get re-elected, and out of those 6 teachers we have none as minister for education.
if you look at FG & labour, Bruton is an oxford or cambridge educated economist, Reilly is a doctor, Burton is an accountant, Veradkar is a doctor, Shatter is a barrister there is plenty of ability there.
Enda Kenny may not be the ideal figure head for a FG/Labour coalition but i'd be pretty confident he is honest and a man of integrity which is more than i can say for any of the incumbents.

i'm lucky in my constituency in that we have 2 of the finest td's in the country representing us, Richard Bruton and Finian McGrath so they got my votes last time and i was delighted to see the epitomy of arrogance and pure unadultrated greed Ivor Callelly lose his seat to McGrath.

caseyann · 02-06-2010 12:29pm

scr123 wrote: »

Completely irrelevant.

As the days and weeks go by the chances of FF winning the next election are steadily increasing and the main reason of the shambles that represents itself as an alternative government

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiIQdlTv6K4

And there is no other way to describe it

Can someone help me with this please it doesn't seem to be working thanks

thebman · 02-06-2010 12:32pm

Sean Quagmire wrote: »

I completly agree with you, but who would you vote for if you dont mind me asking?

I despise FF for the complete shambles they have caused in this country, and it is their fault. But what alternatives do we have?

FG, Labour - The more time I spend listening to them the less faith I have in them. Its worrying when there are 4 or 5 parties to choose from and they are all as bad as each other.

Missing a very important point that an alternative government even if only the same level of incompetent can take an axe to the quangos that have been created over the years by FF that have their "friends" appointed to their boards.

Quangos cost us about 20 billion a year and its going to be necessary to do this to get our deficit under control. FF will not take an axe to these bodies due to invested interests and party before people attitude toward running the country.

FF are cutting essential services before examining which of these quangos we actually need and what cost cutting we can do to each.

Biggins · 02-06-2010 12:34pm

caseyann wrote: »

Can someone help me with this please it doesn't seem to be working thanks

Wolfe Tone · 02-06-2010 12:42pm

Personally I think the opposition are terrified of the prospect of a general election any time soon. They don't have the solutions at all, and would probably end up doing what FF are doing atm, so they are content to spout off rhetoric about restoring public sector cuts etc... But you can bet if the do come to power you will hear excuses for not doing so.

And just a note on Biggins signature there: I believe (open to correction) That Fáil is derived from 'Fál' which is a legendary name for Ireland. Just thought that would interest you!

Biggins · 02-06-2010 12:46pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

And just a note on Biggins signature there: I believe (open to correction) That Fáil is derived from 'Fál' which is a legendary name for Ireland. Just thought that would interest you!

Even better - they are a legendary Irish fail.

femur61 · 02-06-2010 12:56pm

Randomfriend wrote: »

what is the point in being staunch anything thats just silliness, just vote in the people you think will do the best job, feck their political party, I myself just dislike hearing people moan about partys and talk about why ''theirs'' is so great, you'd sewar it was football somtimes

That is what has gone wrong with the country. Vote for who is the best not what you have always voted, or your parents. That is why the church had a strangle hold on this country for decades. I can't understand why people would vote without even looking at the policies the different parties have to offer. Or, is they will gain something personally because the politians had bought a vote.

Liam Byrne · 02-06-2010 1:16pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Personally I think the opposition are terrified of the prospect of a general election any time soon. They don't have the solutions at all, and would probably end up doing what FF are doing atm

Who wouldn't be terrified at the thought of sorting out FF's mess ?

And your "probably" is pure supposition.

thebman · 02-06-2010 4:00pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

They don't have the solutions at all, and would probably end up doing what FF are doing atm,

So what your saying is you didn't look up their solutions and are making massive assumptions and posting them on here thinking they are worthwhile contributions.

Lovely.

bamboozle · 02-06-2010 4:05pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Personally I think the opposition are terrified of the prospect of a general election any time soon. They don't have the solutions at all, and would probably end up doing what FF are doing atm, so they are content to spout off rhetoric about restoring public sector cuts etc... But you can bet if the do come to power you will hear excuses for not doing so.

And just a note on Biggins signature there: I believe (open to correction) That Fáil is derived from 'Fál' which is a legendary name for Ireland. Just thought that would interest you!

couldnt disagree with you more. Politicians are power hungry creatures, of course the opposition want to be in power and they also should be aware that anything they do will be an improvement on FF

Wolfe Tone · 02-06-2010 4:37pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Who wouldn't be terrified at the thought of sorting out FF's mess ?

And your "probably" is pure supposition.

That was the point I was making.

thebman wrote: »

So what your saying is you didn't look up their solutions and are making massive assumptions and posting them on here thinking they are worthwhile contributions.

Lovely.

I see your post is such

They have solutions all right but weather they are better than FF I have my doubts. Lets take for instance Labors proposal on how to deal with Anglo. They voted against guaranteeing the bank. Now if they had of had their way Anglo would have gone bust, and dragged all the other banks down with them. That would have been lovely eh?

bamboozle wrote: »

couldnt disagree with you more. Politicians are power hungry creatures, of course the opposition want to be in power and they also should be aware that anything they do will be an improvement on FF

Oh I have no doubt they want to be in power but I doubt they would want a general election next week, were they win all right, but they would inherit a collection of half baked semi implemented FF policies. FF have taken us to far down the road(especially with the banking sector) to turn back now. The thing this country needs at this time is stability. Personally what I think is the best option would be to wait the two years or so until the election, then crap all over FF.
But in all honesty I don't see a FG/Labour coalition doing much better.

Laminations · 02-06-2010 4:55pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I see your post is such They have solutions all right but weather they are better than FF I have my doubts. Lets take for instance Labors proposal on how to deal with Anglo. They voted against guaranteeing the bank. Now if they had of had their way Anglo would have gone bust, and dragged all the other banks down with them. That would have been lovely eh?

Says you as you gaze into your crystal ball. Why would the other banks have gone bust? Has there been evidence of huge Irish inter-bank lending? The other banks could still have been gauranteed by the irish state but for FF to lump crazy wreckless private debt of developers onto the sovereign shoulders of the irish tax payer is beyond excusable. Anglo was not a systemic bank, it had little to no retail business and a small number of large personal deposits.

Laminations · 02-06-2010 4:57pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Oh I have no doubt they want to be in power but I doubt they would want a general election next week, were they win all right, but they would inherit a collection of half baked semi implemented FF policies. FF have taken us to far down the road(especially with the banking sector) to turn back now. The thing this country needs at this time is stability. Personally what I think is the best option would be to wait the two years or so until the election, then crap all over FF.
But in all honesty I don't see a FG/Labour coalition doing much better.

Even if thats half baked FF stability?
If you cant see FG/Labour doing much better then you really haven't noticed the actual damage FF have done, because I'd argue it'd be impossible for opposition to do any worse

thebman · 02-06-2010 5:15pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I see your post is such They have solutions all right but weather they are better than FF I have my doubts. Lets take for instance Labors proposal on how to deal with Anglo. They voted against guaranteeing the bank. Now if they had of had their way Anglo would have gone bust, and dragged all the other banks down with them. That would have been lovely eh?

There are many economists that say saving Anglo was entirely the wrong thing to do.

One has to look at all the data and can still only make a theory of what would happen if an option that wasn't taken had of been chosen instead.

Anglo dragging the other banks down assumes it had systematic importance. I would like to see what information FF and Brian Lenihan made that call on.

Liam Byrne · 02-06-2010 5:24pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

That was the point I was making.

You also said that they'd be doing the exact same things, but then you go on to say.....

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Labors proposal on how to deal with Anglo. They voted against guaranteeing the bank. Now if they had of had their way Anglo would have gone bust, and dragged all the other banks down with them.

Aside from more guesswork (and then some, because if all the banks had gone bust and we'd set up a new one, I'd still be happier) you're contradicting yourself.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

FF have taken us to far down the road(especially with the banking sector) to turn back now. The thing this country needs at this time is stability. Personally what I think is the best option would be to wait the two years or so until the election, then crap all over FF.
But in all honesty I don't see a FG/Labour coalition doing much better.

I'm stunned! You want to reward incompetence based on a fear that FF & Labour wouldn't "do much better" ?

ANY better would do at this stage, even if it were only 1% better.

It's a sad state of affairs, admittedly, but it's the state of Irish politics at the moment where we have to choose between (a) incompetent and corrupt and (b) slightly less incompetent.

Liam Byrne · 02-06-2010 5:25pm

thebman wrote: »

I would like to see what information FF and Brian Lenihan made that call on.

We're being denied that based on "commercial sensitivities" :mad:

Oh - hang on.....no-one took any minutes at that sell-out meeting, so I guess we'll never know......

Wolfe Tone · 02-06-2010 7:07pm

Laminations wrote: »

Says you as you gaze into your crystal ball. Why would the other banks have gone bust? Has there been evidence of huge Irish inter-bank lending? The other banks could still have been gauranteed by the irish state but for FF to lump crazy wreckless private debt of developers onto the sovereign shoulders of the irish tax payer is beyond excusable. Anglo was not a systemic bank, it had little to no retail business and a small number of large personal deposits.

The way I look at is that there obv was some inter bank lending, there has to be for the banks to function. The other banks would suffer. And if that bank went ****shaped the government would have had to pay out on the deposits that bank had. And that amount is much higher than the 14 billion. And of course if one were to see a bank go down like that or if the government didnt pay out the deposits everyone would fear that BOI/AIB would be next and then there would be a run on the banks. And if the government were prepared to let that bank go down other financial institutions would be less inclined to give loans to banks such as BOI. So hence you would have a collapse of the banking system.

Laminations wrote: »

Even if thats half baked FF stability?
If you cant see FG/Labour doing much better then you really haven't noticed the actual damage FF have done, because I'd argue it'd be impossible for opposition to do any worse

Personally I would fear that if another party were to come to power they may fear that they would have to do something different and change the course FF is on, so then you may have an attempted reversal or a direction change of FF policy and then you would have two half arsed solutions on the go and we end up in an even bigger mess.

thebman wrote: »

There are many economists that say saving Anglo was entirely the wrong thing to do.

One has to look at all the data and can still only make a theory of what would happen if an option that wasn't taken had of been chosen instead.

Anglo dragging the other banks down assumes it had systematic importance. I would like to see what information FF and Brian Lenihan made that call on.

Many say that it was the right thing to do also. Perhaps the report next week or so may shed some more light. Personally I think saving Anglo was the least worst way to deal with it.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You also said that they'd be doing the exact same things, but then you go on to say.....

I meant that if they were in power from the last general election.

Aside from more guesswork (and then some, because if all the banks had gone bust and we'd set up a new one, I'd still be happier) you're contradicting yourself.

Wow, you would have been happy if all the banks had gone bust? I am telling you this country would be much worse off if that had of happened! What about everyones deposits? Were would anyone be able to get any loans from? Thousands of businesses would have gone bust, with no temporary overdrafts or anything! And after watching hard earned deposits vanish would you be inclined to ever trust banks ever again? I think not. We would have been rightly fecked if all the banks had gone bust, I am sure every sane person here would agree.

I'm stunned! You want to reward incompetence based on a fear that FF & Labour wouldn't "do much better" ?

ANY better would do at this stage, even if it were only 1% better.

It's a sad state of affairs, admittedly, but it's the state of Irish politics at the moment where we have to choose between (a) incompetent and corrupt and (b) slightly less incompetent.

No, I don't want to reward them I want to let them finish what they started. It IS a very sad state of affairs indeed, I am afraid FG/Labour would unleash their incompitanc in another direction and rightly feck us up. For me its a case of its better the Devil you know than the devil you don't. I don't support FF and dont plan on voting for them but I don't trust the opposition either! We want change but we must be careful of what we wish for!

Het-Field · 02-06-2010 7:20pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The way I look at is that there obv was some inter bank lending, there has to be for the banks to function. The other banks would suffer. And if that bank went ****shaped the government would have had to pay out on the deposits that bank had. And that amount is much higher than the 14 billion. And of course if one were to see a bank go down like that or if the government didnt pay out the deposits everyone would fear that BOI/AIB would be next and then there would be a run on the banks. And if the government were prepared to let that bank go down other financial institutions would be less inclined to give loans to banks such as BOI. So hence you would have a collapse of the banking system.

Personally I would fear that if another party were to come to power they may fear that they would have to do something different and change the course FF is on, so then you may have an attempted reversal or a direction change of FF policy and then you would have two half arsed solutions on the go and we end up in an even bigger mess.

Many say that it was the right thing to do also. Perhaps the report next week or so may shed some more light. Personally I think saving Anglo was the least worst way to deal with it.

I meant that if they were in power from the last general election.

Wow, you would have been happy if all the banks had gone bust? I am telling you this country would be much worse off if that had of happened! What about everyones deposits? Were would anyone be able to get any loans from? Thousands of businesses would have gone bust, with no temporary overdrafts or anything! And after watching hard earned deposits vanish would you be inclined to ever trust banks ever again? I think not. We would have been rightly fecked if all the banks had gone bust, I am sure every sane person here would agree.

No, I don't want to reward them I want to let them finish what they started. It IS a very sad state of affairs indeed, I am afraid FG/Labour would unleash their incompitanc in another direction and rightly feck us up. For me its a case of its better the Devil you know than the devil you don't. I don't support FF and dont plan on voting for them but I don't trust the opposition either! We want change but we must be careful of what we wish for!

1. NAMA is the only show in town. It may involve further nationalisations, and plenty more recapitlaisation. However, it will not be jettisoned by anybody. If FG/Lab were to get in, they are stuck with it, and wouldnt be stupid enough to try and reverse it given that we have gone so far, and expended so much money on it.

2.Remember 1987 ? Haughey took a similar line to FG/Lab today by opposing all and sundry. FF also fought taht election on the back of the mantra that NOTHING would be cut. However, once they were in power the Haughey/McSharry axis started cutting like no tomorrow and blamed it on the previous administration. I can guarantee you that the same thing would happen if FG/Lab got into power

3.While I dont think the banks should have gone to the wall, the people should know that banking involves the banks use of thier money while it is not in their possession. The banks use this to remain viable, and if people take the risk, and the money is lost, then I apologise, but I shouldnt have to pay for their decision to engage in a banking system which doesnt have their best interests at heart.

4.Saving Anglo ? Most economists think the idea of saving the 8th largest bank in the state as a crazy idea, especially given the fact that the Government seemed intent on attempting to turn it into a viable private entity again. Banks, like any other business must be allowed faill, or alternatively forced mergers should be the order of the day. In this case the state is propping up a defunct bank, which can do absolutly nothing as a lender or a borrower. Plus, given that it is asmall bank, the number of investers would be lower, and the number of those losing out would be smaller. The reverberations from a collapse of a bank like Anglo would be far easier to weather the AIB/BOI. Furthermore, attempts to draw parallels between Lehmanns and Anglo are laughable

billybigunz · 02-06-2010 7:27pm

scr123 wrote: »

Its two years now since the economy began to collapse around our ankles. The property bubble burst as expected and the economy went in to recession as expected it would at some stage. At that moment what we didnt know was the extent of the problems at the banks.Two years of economic, political and social upheaval but it looks as if there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are people who want to smash that light but their political agenda is easily read and they will not succeed..
I want a change of government because its wrong to have a one party State, FF have gone stale and because FF have been at fault in too many areas. However, when I look to my left I see Labour and a concoction of extremists whose economic policies revolve around TAX AND SPEND. Look to my right and I see Fine Gael who have economic policies of NO TAX AND NO SPEND. Economically, politically and socially the Left and Right are so far apart the thoughts of them in government together is terrifying..
I have read and listened to all the attacks of FF and they are being repeated ad nauseum. Life is about words like balance, equilibrium, negotiation, compromise, hope, optimism, solutions, confidence and more. I see nothing coming from the Left or Right that will resolve the problems facing this country and under the circumstances I remain staunch FF

A sad post. Light at the end of the tunnel? Ha, that seems to be the mantra I'm hearing a lot now. Obviously orders from the mother ship. I'm seeing shíte at the end of the tunnel myself. Unemployment is throuhg the roof, beyond any of the typical 13% figures we hear about. The state has no money to spend, needs 20 billion+ for the next few years if not more. It is a disaster and very few people have even realised it. This is not a bad recession this is going to be one of the biggest depressions seen in a first world country and it is going to last a decade.

Liam Byrne · 02-06-2010 7:37pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I meant that if they were in power from the last general election.

If they'd been in power from the last election then maybe we wouldn't have needed the bailout, because the Galway Tent brigade might actually have been regulated and the economy might not have been built on transient taxes.....and we probably wouldn't have had Ahern's version of "benchmarking".

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Wow, you would have been happy if all the banks had gone bust? I am telling you this country would be much worse off if that had of happened! What about everyones deposits? Were would anyone be able to get any loans from?

I said I would have been "happier" than I am now. Ideally, one or two of the main and most viable banks would have been saved (although I'd probably have debated a lot about AIB, since this was their second time shafting the country).

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

And after watching hard earned deposits vanish would you be inclined to ever trust banks ever again? I think not.

I don't anyway, so what's your point ?

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

We would have been rightly fecked if all the banks had gone bust, I am sure every sane person here would agree.

I'll overlook the attempted snide slur, and point out that A GOOD BANK would have existed in order to take the business.

In fact, I proposed at the time that it should be investigated whether Credit Unions could take up the slack, rather than throw billions at unviable, unethical, profit-at-all-cost businesses that were obviously incapable of managing money and making experienced and sensible decisions.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

For me its a case of its better the Devil you know than the devil you don't. I don't support FF and dont plan on voting for them but I don't trust the opposition either! We want change but we must be careful of what we wish for!

That's the FF line at the moment, so forgive me if the "I don't support FF" isn't completely credible as a result.

"Any sane person" would point out that the idiots and corrupt scum who landed us in this mess - and who think it's OK to claim €80,000 in expenses paid for by barely-employed people who are being simultaneously screwed by taxes and bailout fees and the banks themselves - are not the ones to get us out of it.

Wolfe Tone · 02-06-2010 8:07pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If they'd been in power from the last election then maybe we wouldn't have needed the bailout, because the Galway Tent brigade might actually have been regulated and the economy might not have been built on transient taxes.....and we probably wouldn't have had Ahern's version of "benchmarking".

We were well on the Road to ruin by May of 2007 tbh.

I said I would have been "happier" than I am now. Ideally, one or two of the main and most viable banks would have been saved (although I'd probably have debated a lot about AIB, since this was their second time shafting the country).

And how much money would it have cost to save these 2 main banks? What foreign banks would dare give them loans, if it appears the government wont step in if things take a turn for the worst? Quite simply you would have to be mad to argue that we would be in any sort of better position today if the banks had of gone bust. Simply mad.

I don't anyway, so what's your point ?

Look at it this way. If everyones savings were to disappear, then eventually when people had some sort of money again they wouldn't trust a bank to hold it, so they may stick it under the bed or something. As a result of this banks would not be able to fulfill things such as the reserve ratio, thus would not be able to give out loans. Which leads us on to your next point:

I'll overlook the attempted snide slur, and point out that A GOOD BANK would have existed in order to take the business.

There would have been no possibility of a "Good bank" All credabilty would be gone. No one would lend this bank money at all. Foreign banks who were owed money by our banks would also have suffered. Lend money again to Irish banks? Not bloody likely! Could you imagine the riots if everyones hard eaned savings were to suddenly evaporate?

In fact, I proposed at the time that it should be investigated whether Credit Unions could take up the slack, rather than throw billions at unviable, unethical, profit-at-all-cost businesses that were obviously incapable of managing money and making experienced and sensible decisions.

Thats simply Capitalism. How could credit unions take up that slack? What world are you living in man? The Billions in deposits would be gone, the entire country would effectively shudder to a halt. What could people use as collateral for loans? Property would be out the window, no one would have any sort of hard cash to back loans.

That's the FF line at the moment, so forgive me if the "I don't support FF" isn't completely credible as a result.

I don't support FF and it is quite evident if you look at some of my other posts that am a SF supporter.

"Any sane person" would point out that the idiots and corrupt scum who landed us in this mess - and who think it's OK to claim €80,000 in expenses paid for by barely-employed people who are being simultaneously screwed by taxes and bailout fees and the banks themselves - are not the ones to get us out of it.

Some of them are idiots, and others corrupt. But I think that applies to politicians in general these days.

Why I remain staunch FF

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