Unfairly fined for illegal dumping

reux_ wrote: »

The exact thing happened to a friend of mine, she was telling me a while back. I think she just had to pay the fine even though they were obviously not the culprits

It's regrettable that your friend had to pay in the end. Did she go as far as court with her case?
I don't know if it was during the very windy weather that the 'evidence' was photographed, my husband went to the Co. Council while I was at work, I wish I had been able to go with him, I would have asked a load of questions.
We're hoping the appeal form my husband filled out will sort things out but if not then we'll go to our local councillor. Paying up would be like admitting guilt and I can be as stubborn as a mule when I feel strongly about something.
We appreciate the good luck replies from other posters.

Blimey, your friend is unlucky, what are the odds? No update on our situation. Haven't heard anything since husband filled out the appeal form. I'll post any developments.

It seems that if the Council can't get the culprits they'll just go after anyone they can pin it to. Maybe they get a pat on the back for each successful fine.
Considering the issues of your case, it being 5 years ago and the MTO were in possession of the document, if they pursue the fine then the law really is an ass.

The update on my issue is not good. Co.Council sent us a letter this morning saying they are rejecting our appeal based on that the 'large amount of household rubbish' could not have escaped from our bin while it was being emptied. They seem to be ignoring our idea that our single piece of paper could have blown onto someone else's dumped rubbish. They also said that it is the householder's responsibility to make sure that the lid of the bin is closed and that the bin is not overflowing. I always make sure of this (I hate when birds are able to peck at rubbish and scatter it). They're also ignoring when the litter warden found the 'evidence', 9th Jan, when we had a few days of extremely high winds which were so bad it was all over the news. I remember on bin collection day a number of bins were on their sides having been blown over before collection. What does the Council expect us to do, bolt our bins to the ground? We were invited to pay the fine or go to court, we'll go to court because if this ever happens again the second fine would be enormous and an appeal probably wouldn't work 'cos it would look like we're guilty a second time.

ann0, don't pay. They said the same to us, the fine was gone through. We let the Council know we thought it was unfair and asked for copies of the "evidence" to be sent to us, which they did. That was two and a half months ago and we haven't heard anything since. The picture they sent to us didn't even show a pile of dumped rubbish, it showed papers and some plastic bottles strewn around on some grass with our paper among them, entirely consistent with rubbish from a blown over recycling bin and being tossed around in those gale force winds we had early in January.
Fines are for the guilty, not the innocent so stick to your guns.

Hi All,
Finally there's been a resolution to this. We went to court last Tuesday and the judge dismissed the case. It is such a relief to have it finally behind us but the council really gave us the runaround. When my husband rang up after we got the letter rejecting his appeal the 'lady' in the Council was downright rude, ignored his question to why it was rejected saying the fine still stands and hung up on him mid sentence, all in less than a minute. I rang back straight away calmy stating we were entitled to ask and receive a few answers and that we want copies of the photos the litter warden took in case it goes to court, kept her on the phone about 10 mins (just in case she was busy). It's the attitude that really bugged me. We got free legal advice from FLAC where we were told we had a very good case and that any reasonable judge would think it ridicolous so that encouraged us.
But the end of July we get a letter saying the matter had come before the court, in our absence the judge imposed a fine of 300, adding costs of 208, 90 days to pay or prison.What?, we never even got the summons. Rang the Council, they said the summons had been sent weeks ago and signed for. She spelled out a foreign name we never heard of so it obviously didn't come to us. She just said go to the district court and explain. So off we go to the city a few days later, finally get directed to the summons office. Lady there said we can get a new date (Sept 11) but we have to sign a document, bring a copy of that to the Council in Swords to sign agreeing to the new date and then bring this to a peace commissioner to sign, and bring these back to the summons office. Took a whole day cos of a lot of waiting around and misdirections. The Council let our summons be handed to a complete stranger, can you imagine. So Sept 11 comes round and we're all ready for husband to plead his case. His turn is called and he swears in and gives his address. Judge says he has a different address before him whereupon the legal lady of the council says that this hearing is to apply for a new court date cos the Council sent the summons to the wrong house, she even said the address of the wrong house, similar to ours. This was the first we heard of what happened our summons, they could have told us this when we were on the phone in July. Judge gives a new court date of 23 Oct. Turned out this hearing was just to apply for a new date. So back we were going to have to come AGAIN.
So, on 23 Oct the litter warden gave his evidence, my husband gave his (making some points the solicitor from FLAC suggested), judge called back the warden and quizzed him in more detail and eventually said he is 'willing to believe the defendant's explanation' and dismiss the case. On stepping down my husband was tempted to give the warden a nod and wink, the way the wardens were doing to each other each time the judge convicted on previous cases. I wish he had.
I know a litter fine is not the most serious case in the world but we don't like to see abuse of power. And all the running around they made us do cos they sent our summons to the wrong address, not to mention loss of earnings to appear twice in court. But I think it was worth it in the end just not to give in to bullying.
Sorry for the lengthy story, but this is the shortened version.
And thank you for the encouragement given to us by other posters.
Razzler

We didn't ask for compensation/costs of any kind even though the soliciter from FLAC, when we got advice months ago, said we could suggest it to the judge before he made his decision. We were both new to these kind of legal proceedings and didn't want to seem cheeky in case it made a bad impression with the judge.

Thanks Turbulent Bill
The other cases all had the personal details enclosed inside bags of the black bin bag type dumped with other bags and the defendants were not present (probably couldn't be bothered turning up) so guilt seemed obvious. In each of these cases the judge would say "based on the evidence given by the litter warden I'm going to convict". It actually became a bit boring after a while, there was low background noise from people cos people weren't really listening, until my husband's turn. You could have heard a pin drop. Everyone wanted to hear what someone pleading not guilty would say.
One other guy pleaded not guilty as well. His details with a Blessington Street address was found inside 4 bags of dumped rubbish on Blessington Street and his defence was that he lives in Clontarf but gets his letters delivered to his friend's house on Blessington Street and that it was his friend who dumped the bags. But he wouldn't give the judge a reason as to why his friend would dump bags or why he uses his friend's address. Maybe he was telling the truth and didn't want to incriminate his 'friend' who was obviously willing to let him take the rap. And he didn't provide proof of his address in Clontarf. The judge convicted.
Other cases were for security shutters erected without permission, noisey works and so on.
To deviate a bit, I was surprised the way some people dressed, dirty tracksuits, cloths looking like they were slept in with mucky trainers. But no pyjamas thank God.

No, being new to all this (never been to court before) we thought it might look a bit cheeky asking for loss of earnings and might prejudice the judge against us. We were just happy with the win.

Hi Kuroino,
Sorry for the trouble you're having. It's your decision to pay if it would work out easier for you but on point of principal I wouldn't. If you take it to court it would be a few hours. We got there by 10am and were done by 12. Actual hearing only took 10 mins, it was mostly just waiting for our turn. You could mention to the judge when you're putting your case that you are out a day's pay and if he finds in your favour he could award you the wages you are losing.
I'd advise you to have a meeting with FLAC (Free Legal Advice Centre). There's one in Blanchardstown by the FAS and Social Welfare office Tel: 076 1075 040. It's 7:30 - 9 pm Mondays but ring for an appiontment. There's other centres where you just walk in with no appointment. There you'll get free advice from a solicitor on where you stand and what may happen should you wish to oppose the fine.
I think County Councils routinely reject appeals and most innocent people would pay up, too bad. It would be helpful for you if you could find out the nature of the rubbish in the bag to confirm that it wasn't your rubbish, someone else must own the rubbish as you never received the letter.
I hope it works out for you if you decide not to pay, keep me up to date on what happens, it could take months to come to court so you've plenty of time to think about a course of action.

Regards
Razzler

Hi Oleander, sorry for the trouble your mum is having. A litter charge may not be considered the biggest deal in the world but you'd be surprised at how it can push up the stress levels, always at the back of your mind until it's sorted. If yous decide not to pay the first thing you should do is fill out an appeal form. This will give you the opportunity to outline why you feel the fine shouldn't be imposed, but expect this to be routinely rejected. Be aware that there is a time limit in which you can appeal so this should be done as soon as possible. If (when) the appeal is rejected you can ask to see the 'evidence' and the rest of the rubbish that was in the bag. Your mum would know if it's her rubbish or not. Also, if it's an unopened letter and obviously not junk mail then you might argue that your mum never received it. Or if there's no post mark then it was probably never posted. I'm thinking that it could have been sent to the wrong address and that this person is the guilty party. We weren't entitled to free legal aid, but maybe your mum is. But we went to see a FLAC solicitor in a Citizen's Information centre just for some free advice and I'd recommend yous do the same. They will give you an idea of what your chances will be if it goes to court so you can better decide what course of action to take. If your mum is elderly maybe she doesn't need the stress coming up to Christmas. But if yous decide not to pay then let us know how it goes and best of luck.

By the way, the FLAC solicitor said that if the judge didn't find in our favour then likely he would just impose the original fine, so nothing to lose.