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Unfairly fined for illegal dumping

razzler

Yesterday morning we received a registered letter from the County County. It was a Euro150. fine for illegal dumping. It said that a 'large amount of household waste' was dumped on a green area in Castlecurragh Vale. In it was a document with my husband's name and address so they are assuming we are the culprits. We were shocked. We use Panda and pay for our collections. We couldn't fathom how one of our bags could have ended up somewhere else. We wouldn't even throw a sweet paper on the ground and have a low opinion of people who litter. My husband went to the Co. Council to talk with them. He was shown a photo of the 'evidence'. It was a single page from AA Insurance on the grass with his name and address. I don't know where they got the 'large amount of household waste' from. He filled out an appeal form explaining that it could simply have fallen from our bin as the bin men were emptying it especially if it was windy. We put our recycling waste loose in the green bin. There's always papers blowing around after bin collections. Someone is usually sent around afterwards to pick these up (missed our one). It will be 21 days from the date of issuing the fine that they will prosecute.
There is NO WAY we are going to pay this. Fines are there for people who are guilty and we are not dumpers. We were fined on such flimsy evidence that we think it must have happened to others. If it has we'd like to know your experience. I have the feeling the Co. Council wont want to back down.
Thanks

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chucknorris

razzler wrote: »

Yesterday morning we received a registered letter from the County County. It was a Euro150. fine for illegal dumping. It said that a 'large amount of household waste' was dumped on a green area in Castlecurragh Vale. In it was a document with my husband's name and address so they are assuming we are the culprits. We were shocked. We use Panda and pay for our collections. We couldn't fathom how one of our bags could have ended up somewhere else. We wouldn't even throw a sweet paper on the ground and have a low opinion of people who litter. My husband went to the Co. Council to talk with them. He was shown a photo of the 'evidence'. It was a single page from AA Insurance on the grass with his name and address. I don't know where they got the 'large amount of household waste' from. He filled out an appeal form explaining that it could simply have fallen from our bin as the bin men were emptying it especially if it was windy. We put our recycling waste loose in the green bin. There's always papers blowing around after bin collections. Someone is usually sent around afterwards to pick these up (missed our one). It will be 21 days from the date of issuing the fine that they will prosecute.
There is NO WAY we are going to pay this. Fines are there for people who are guilty and we are not dumpers. We were fined on such flimsy evidence that we think it must have happened to others. If it has we'd like to know your experience. I have the feeling the Co. Council wont want to back down.
Thanks

prove your payments for bin collections and your grand.....clearly the effort to write this post suggests your one of the decent ones up my way!!

fasttalkerchat

I used to live in that estate. Tell them to look at the park near the roundabout and leave you alone for one piece of paper! Ridiculous!

EdwardHopper

and on a slightly separate note, it would be a good idea to buy a shredder. You never know what bit of rubbish is going to escape from a bin and who might try to make use of your name and address. I also find it's less likely to blow away when it's shredded, if you know what I mean, it's more a tangled mass than easily floatable sheets of paper.

razzler

I usually rip up the name and address part of our documents into little pieces before putting it in the bin (was a victim of fraud a while back), this must have been one my husband threw away. Government bodies must be desperate for cash to be doing this. We'll see how the appeal goes, I'd opt to go to prison rather than pay the fine on point of principal, except not fair that the tax payer would have to pay for my stay.
(Thanks Chucknorris)

Turbulent Bill

Did this coincide with the recent windy weather and Panda's change of schedule? I live in the same area and the entire estate was covered in litter, both from dumped bags and wind-blown from people's bins - it would be hard to discriminate them. TBH I sometimes find items from my green bin blowing around after collection that need to be picked up.

chucknorris' suggestion is good, show your Panda statement to show that you use their service.

I'm delighted though that Fingal are pursuing litterers (though I accept it's very harsh in your case). I've seen lots of black plastic bags left at the enterance to the estate recently.

MrJoeSoap

razzler wrote: »

I usually rip up the name and address part of our documents into little pieces before putting it in the bin (was a victim of fraud a while back), this must have been one my husband threw away. Government bodies must be desperate for cash to be doing this. We'll see how the appeal goes, I'd opt to go to prison rather than pay the fine on point of principal, except not fair that the tax payer would have to pay for my stay.
(Thanks Chucknorris)

Whilst I'd appreciate that you are being honest and weren't responsible for this, the council do a pretty good job of detecting who is responsible for illegal dumping in a lot of cases. They'll plough through big piles of rubbish looking for something that could implicate someone and run with that. I worked for a mobile phone company and we received letters from the council requesting information on mobile phone numbers (yes, they do have the power) to try and catch people for this.

I wouldn't see it as the government being desperate for cash, but rather they are trying to do something about a serious problem.

Best of luck in clearing your name in this instance, however.

jack presley

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

the council do a pretty good job of detecting who is responsible for illegal dumping in a lot of cases. They'll plough through big piles of rubbish looking for something that could implicate someone and run with that.

Pity there wasn't a way they could catch the people who use the bin storage areas beside the houses in Castlecurragh to dump old doors, TVs, sofas etc.

Larbre34

I feel your pain OP, its particularly infuriating when you go out of your way to comply with the waste regime and get nabbed for something that probably blew out under the lid of your green bin on a windy day

Id agree that the Council get down and dirty in their efforts to get evidence from fly tipping, but the worst offenders are wise to that - you wont find any names and addresses in the bags dumped at bus stops, laneways, park gates, ends of streets and thats just what i see any given morning.......

Its been mentioned above but, for a million reasons, never let any personalised documents outside your front door that havent been shredded

[Deleted User]

This might be a long shot but there's an elderly woman that walks around early in the morning stealing utility bills from green bins. She's from a certain ethnic minority prevalent in eastern europe. Maybe your bill was swiped and dumped? Never put anything like that in your bin around here.

reux_

The exact thing happened to a friend of mine, she was telling me a while back. I think she just had to pay the fine even though they were obviously not the culprits.
Even today my dad was given a parking fine when the machine was out of order and he had only left the car for two minutes. When he went looking for the inspector he was nowhere to be seen!

jack presley

Deleted User wrote: »

This might be a long shot but there's an elderly woman that walks around early in the morning stealing utility bills from green bins. She's from a certain ethnic minority prevalent in eastern europe. Maybe your bill was swiped and dumped? Never put anything like that in your bin around here.

She's not the one with the old buggy is she? That one's up and about on her rounds very early during the Summer months.

ongarboy

I feel for you OP cos you observed all the rules but still are the one who gets targetted when countless others break the law all the time and laugh knowing they'll never get caught.

Do you keep the stubs on your bin tags (used for claiming back tax) which could be used as proof that you are a regular bin tag payer? It may help your case somewhat. I suggest also getting in touch with your local elected councillor/TD to see if they can assist also.

I hope this works out for you! Good luck!

razzler

reux_ wrote: »

The exact thing happened to a friend of mine, she was telling me a while back. I think she just had to pay the fine even though they were obviously not the culprits

It's regrettable that your friend had to pay in the end. Did she go as far as court with her case?
I don't know if it was during the very windy weather that the 'evidence' was photographed, my husband went to the Co. Council while I was at work, I wish I had been able to go with him, I would have asked a load of questions.
We're hoping the appeal form my husband filled out will sort things out but if not then we'll go to our local councillor. Paying up would be like admitting guilt and I can be as stubborn as a mule when I feel strongly about something.
We appreciate the good luck replies from other posters.

[Deleted User]

jack presley wrote: »

She's not the one with the old buggy is she? That one's up and about on her rounds very early during the Summer months.

That's the one alright. We caught her at our bin and our neighbours bin on separate occasions.

jack presley

dojojoe wrote: »

That's the one alright. We caught her at our bin and our neighbours bin on separate occasions.

While I've never seen her go through bins I did always wonder what she was doing walking around the estate as I'd be leaving for work at about 6:30am.

TheChrisD

Any update on this situation? My friend has apparently also received a fine like this for a letter she threw away in Sligo in 2007, which was found in an abandoned house in Tallaght last month...

razzler

Blimey, your friend is unlucky, what are the odds? No update on our situation. Haven't heard anything since husband filled out the appeal form. I'll post any developments.

Konata

razzler wrote: »

Blimey, your friend is unlucky, what are the odds? No update on our situation. Haven't heard anything since husband filled out the appeal form. I'll post any developments.

Thanks! I'm the friend mentioned in the above post! My parents are also currently making out an appeal (since the letter is in Sligo and I now live in Dublin) but I think we might have a pretty good case. The 'litter' that was found is a certificate stating I passed my driver theory test. That certificate has to be brought to the Motor Tax Office in order to obtain a provisional licence. The key part here is that the MTO don't give you back the cert (as far as I am aware - have to ring on Monday for definite confirmation on this!). Therefore I was never the one who binned it at any point - Sligo's Motor Tax Office is.

What's most worrying about this is that the certificate had my PPS number on it. Great protection of confidential information there! I couldn't understand how I could ever have dumped a letter with such important information on it. In 2007 I was still in secondary school and my Mum meticulously shreds anything with our names on it, always has done so this may explain how it escaped my hands intact!

The whole situation is very frustrating and even though I now have a good case against the littering fine I'm perturbed that my name, address, date of birth and PPS No. were floating around the country for anyone to find!

razzler

It seems that if the Council can't get the culprits they'll just go after anyone they can pin it to. Maybe they get a pat on the back for each successful fine.
Considering the issues of your case, it being 5 years ago and the MTO were in possession of the document, if they pursue the fine then the law really is an ass.

The update on my issue is not good. Co.Council sent us a letter this morning saying they are rejecting our appeal based on that the 'large amount of household rubbish' could not have escaped from our bin while it was being emptied. They seem to be ignoring our idea that our single piece of paper could have blown onto someone else's dumped rubbish. They also said that it is the householder's responsibility to make sure that the lid of the bin is closed and that the bin is not overflowing. I always make sure of this (I hate when birds are able to peck at rubbish and scatter it). They're also ignoring when the litter warden found the 'evidence', 9th Jan, when we had a few days of extremely high winds which were so bad it was all over the news. I remember on bin collection day a number of bins were on their sides having been blown over before collection. What does the Council expect us to do, bolt our bins to the ground? We were invited to pay the fine or go to court, we'll go to court because if this ever happens again the second fine would be enormous and an appeal probably wouldn't work 'cos it would look like we're guilty a second time.

ann0

same thing happened to me.mine was an axa insurance disc.in a bag of rubbish.the bag was found in the trees at the pavillions shopping centre.how it got there il never know.150 euro fine .i was told i could appeall it which i did.only got a letter back last week saying theres nothing they could do as the fine has gone through.wants the point in an appeal then.im not paying it.i use black bins so i have no reason to dump anything.bit strange how it seems to be insurance stuff that was found
by the way dont sign for any registered letters that u dont know of.the council are dead wide knowing that if they send out registered letters that the recipient will think ooohh i wonder wats in that.the post man told me a couple of yrs ago.dont sign stuff that u dont know about as there could be a fine in one of them.once u dont sign for a registered letter theres nothing they can do as u havent recieved signed for that letter.think about it how often would u get a registered letter with a cheque in it.all they can do is keepsending them out.the police cant get involved.and they cant make u sign for a letter either

gizmo555

Konata wrote: »

T The 'litter' that was found is a certificate stating I passed my driver theory test. That certificate has to be brought to the Motor Tax Office in order to obtain a provisional licence. The key part here is that the MTO don't give you back the cert (as far as I am aware - have to ring on Monday for definite confirmation on this!). Therefore I was never the one who binned it at any point - Sligo's Motor Tax Office is.

What's most worrying about this is that the certificate had my PPS number on it. Great protection of confidential information there!

You should make a complaint to the Data Protection Commissioner: www.dataprotection.ie

razzler wrote: »

They seem to be ignoring our idea that our single piece of paper could have blown onto someone else's dumped rubbish.

That's what we did, and drove back to the church, had a thanksgiving
dinner that couldn't be beat, went to sleep and didn't get up until the
next morning, when we got a phone call from Officer Obie. He said, "Kid,
we found your name on an envelope at the bottom of a half a ton of
garbage, and just wanted to know if you had any information about it." And
I said, "Yes, sir, Officer Obie, I cannot tell a lie, I put that envelope
under that garbage."

Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant"

ann0

the county council are quick to whack out fines .but there not quick about fixing the pot holes and the crap roads that are actually damaging peoples cars

razzler

ann0, don't pay. They said the same to us, the fine was gone through. We let the Council know we thought it was unfair and asked for copies of the "evidence" to be sent to us, which they did. That was two and a half months ago and we haven't heard anything since. The picture they sent to us didn't even show a pile of dumped rubbish, it showed papers and some plastic bottles strewn around on some grass with our paper among them, entirely consistent with rubbish from a blown over recycling bin and being tossed around in those gale force winds we had early in January.
Fines are for the guilty, not the innocent so stick to your guns.

ann0

hi razzler,apparently the bag was found around patricks day gone at the side of the pavillions where the trees are.there not gettin a penny.but just to cover my self if it ends up in court i told them id pay a fiver a week even though i dident dump anything.they said they dont take by the week.well ive got a copy of my letter saying im willing to pay by the week and i have there letter saying they dont take by the week.most times a judge says the defendant is not refusing to pay and most cases gets dropped

razzler

Hi All,
Finally there's been a resolution to this. We went to court last Tuesday and the judge dismissed the case. It is such a relief to have it finally behind us but the council really gave us the runaround. When my husband rang up after we got the letter rejecting his appeal the 'lady' in the Council was downright rude, ignored his question to why it was rejected saying the fine still stands and hung up on him mid sentence, all in less than a minute. I rang back straight away calmy stating we were entitled to ask and receive a few answers and that we want copies of the photos the litter warden took in case it goes to court, kept her on the phone about 10 mins (just in case she was busy). It's the attitude that really bugged me. We got free legal advice from FLAC where we were told we had a very good case and that any reasonable judge would think it ridicolous so that encouraged us.
But the end of July we get a letter saying the matter had come before the court, in our absence the judge imposed a fine of 300, adding costs of 208, 90 days to pay or prison.What?, we never even got the summons. Rang the Council, they said the summons had been sent weeks ago and signed for. She spelled out a foreign name we never heard of so it obviously didn't come to us. She just said go to the district court and explain. So off we go to the city a few days later, finally get directed to the summons office. Lady there said we can get a new date (Sept 11) but we have to sign a document, bring a copy of that to the Council in Swords to sign agreeing to the new date and then bring this to a peace commissioner to sign, and bring these back to the summons office. Took a whole day cos of a lot of waiting around and misdirections. The Council let our summons be handed to a complete stranger, can you imagine. So Sept 11 comes round and we're all ready for husband to plead his case. His turn is called and he swears in and gives his address. Judge says he has a different address before him whereupon the legal lady of the council says that this hearing is to apply for a new court date cos the Council sent the summons to the wrong house, she even said the address of the wrong house, similar to ours. This was the first we heard of what happened our summons, they could have told us this when we were on the phone in July. Judge gives a new court date of 23 Oct. Turned out this hearing was just to apply for a new date. So back we were going to have to come AGAIN.
So, on 23 Oct the litter warden gave his evidence, my husband gave his (making some points the solicitor from FLAC suggested), judge called back the warden and quizzed him in more detail and eventually said he is 'willing to believe the defendant's explanation' and dismiss the case. On stepping down my husband was tempted to give the warden a nod and wink, the way the wardens were doing to each other each time the judge convicted on previous cases. I wish he had.
I know a litter fine is not the most serious case in the world but we don't like to see abuse of power. And all the running around they made us do cos they sent our summons to the wrong address, not to mention loss of earnings to appear twice in court. But I think it was worth it in the end just not to give in to bullying.
Sorry for the lengthy story, but this is the shortened version.
And thank you for the encouragement given to us by other posters.
Razzler

CrazyRabbit

I guess you could say that the prosecutions case was trashed. Now you can just bin this whole episode and get on with your life.

jhegarty

I'd make a complaint to the Data Protection Commissioner about them sending your private information to a 3rd party.

fasttalkerchat

razzler wrote: »

Razzler

Did you get costs or was it just dropped? I would want compensated for loss of earnings and expenses.

razzler

We didn't ask for compensation/costs of any kind even though the soliciter from FLAC, when we got advice months ago, said we could suggest it to the judge before he made his decision. We were both new to these kind of legal proceedings and didn't want to seem cheeky in case it made a bad impression with the judge.

razzler

Konata wrote: »

Thanks! I'm the friend mentioned in the above post! My parents are also currently making out an appeal (since the letter is in Sligo and I now live in Dublin) but I think we might have a pretty good case. The 'litter' that was found is a certificate stating I passed my driver theory test. That certificate has to be brought to the Motor Tax Office in order to obtain a provisional licence. The key part here is that the MTO don't give you back the cert (as far as I am aware - have to ring on Monday for definite confirmation on this!). Therefore I was never the one who binned it at any point - Sligo's Motor Tax Office is.

Hi Konata
How did this issue work out for you? Something I've learned is that if the person's details are found inside a bag of rubbish then the judge is not likley to believe any explanation from the defendant when it goes to court. Such was the situation with other cases we heard before our turn came. Also, the rubbish must be in view in a public place, the judge always asked if this was the case and it's stated in the Litter Pollution Act. Your friend said it was found in an abandoned house in Tallaght so that's not in view in a public place so I think the fine won't stick.