Animals are here for us to kill, eat..

EICVD · 04-07-2019 9:40am

Yeah cows pigs & chickens* are, anything wild isn’t ours to eat

(* can include bred to eat goose, duck & turkey there)

04-07-2019 10:51am

EICVD wrote: »

Yeah cows pigs & chickens* are, anything wild isn’t ours to eat

Shame for me so since I fish a lot and eat them - and I capture and keep wild rabbit before offing them and eating them.

Some of it is probably illegal as I have never looked into licensing laws on all of it

Sea fishing I think is fine. River fishing I am probably violating some licensing laws. Rabbit - I genuinely do not know what the deal is there.

Thelonious Monk · 04-07-2019 10:51am

Rezident wrote: »

The seas are almost out of fish!? There are 3.5 trillion fish in the ocean. If you want to be vegan, we can't stop you self-flagelating yourself by missing out on rib-eye steak, but stop forcing this nonsense on innocent people, you are not helping your cause at all.

Read about the Bay of Bengal and fish stocks there, or what happened to the Newfoundland cod stocks. Do people think we can just keep exhausting the oceans of fish indefinitely? You honestly think fish stocks haven't been dangerously depleted since massive trawlers and destructive methods came into commercial fishing? Or what about salmon?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/lifestyle/outdoorsandgarden/salmon-numbers-declining-despite-best-efforts-910010.html

Salmon
numbers peaked in the mid-1970s when around 1.7m returned to Ireland. Today,
returns are estimated at 250,000 to 300,000

But no, fish stocks are just fine

Oh and my own experience with mackerel is that there's f*ck all of them left in the Irish sea, whereas when I was a kid you could fish out as many as you liked. I spoke to a guy at Bullock harbour who rents boats out last September and there had been less than 10 mackerel caught on his boats that season so far.

Or here's a bunch of scientists saying seafood stocks are going to collapse but what would they know

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120920-are-we-running-out-of-fish

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533125/All-seafood-will-run-out-in-2050-say-scientists.html

Uncharted · 04-07-2019 11:06am

PainInTheArse wrote: »

What about the choice and free will of your victim ?

That's my point.

In my opinion,animals bred exclusively for the food industry don't have choice or free will.

They are products. Links in a chain if you will.

I don't consider them as wild sentient graceful animals,I consider them as food.

Like I said, that's my opinion.

randd1 · 04-07-2019 11:13am

PainInTheArse wrote: »

What about the choice and free will of your victim ?

You could make the same arguments about plants really, they're born, they grow, they consume, they reproduce, they exhaust. And then in the prime of their life are cut down for food.

The only difference between meat eaters and vegans really is that with meat eaters, their living organism for choice of feeding has a chance to run away or fight back.

Thelonious Monk · 04-07-2019 11:17am

randd1 wrote: »

The only difference between meat eaters and vegans really is that with meat eaters, their living organism for choice of feeding has a chance to run away or fight back.

I would imagine they just place more value in animals than they do in plants and consider them more sentient. Like an Oran Utang experiences some manner of feelings and pain etc whereas a field of wheat doesnt. Humans need to eat something, eat plants and insects dying from sprays etc is probably the least impact we can have on the planet and animals suffering.
People are eating more and more meat though, more than ever and it's cheap too, so what a few vegans think really shouldn't matter, it's about as irrelevant as the toilets for trans people issue, it wont affect any of us. So I really don't understand why it irks passionate meat eaters so much, you're only going to have more and more options for meat the way things are going.

CucaFace · 04-07-2019 11:18am

randd1 wrote: »

You could make the same arguments about plants really, they're born, they grow, they consume, they reproduce, they exhaust. And then in the prime of their life are cut down for food.

The only difference between meat eaters and vegans really is that with meat eaters, their living organism for choice of feeding has a chance to run away or fight back.

They don't feel love for their offspring and they don't feel fear. Not the same at all..

The way we treat animals on this planet is a disgrace, and this is coming from someone who eats meat.

We do not have the right to turn another creature into a slave/commodity just for our own gain.

In the past I can understand this was the only way to live, but now we have the ability to change this.

dodderangler · 04-07-2019 11:20am

CucaFace wrote: »

They don't feel love for their offspring and they don't feel fear. Not the same at all..

The way we treat animals on this planet is a disgrace, and this is coming from someone who eats meat.

We do not have the right to turn another creature into a slave/commodity just for our own gain.

In the past I can understand this was the only way to live, but now we have the ability to change this.

So you eat a big fat burger and say to yourself this poor tasty delicious cow shouldn’t of died for me to enjoy it

dodderangler · 04-07-2019 11:20am

I hunt and eat what I hunt. All my meat feels is freedom before I drop it. I ha the chance to run away. But I’m just a good stalker that it never knows I’m even there.

seasidedub · 04-07-2019 11:25am

Personally I love how vegans stand for humanity and the planet. Refusing to eat a local grass fed free roaming cow/sheep etc, but blissfully chowing down on a quinoa burger made with grains grown in South America and creating a massive carbon footprint as well as forcing clearances of indigenous lands and rai forest, ditto avocados, or chomping on soy based products possibly grown with Monsanto franken-seeds. And not to mention the carbon footprint of their trips to yoga places in India, Bali etc.....

Do Lough Derg on your knees, porridge, few local rashers, bit of turnip and few spuds, pint of Guinness for the barley and they'd be better off, so would the planet

Uncharted · 04-07-2019 11:26am

dodderangler wrote: »

I hunt and eat what I hunt. All my meat feels is freedom before I drop it. I ha the chance to run away. But I’m just a good stalker that it never knows I’m even there.

I know what you mean.

There's no better feeling than a 10.99 sticker being placed on a 15 euro steak.

Then I make my move, silently pouncing from beside the dairy aisle, that poor pre packed steak never knew what hit it.

Get in muh belly...

yourdeadwright · 04-07-2019 11:27am

So if we all went Vegan then surely cows , chickens and Pigs would disappear form the planet ?

So strangely enough the fact we eat them is the only reason they are still here,

gozunda · 04-07-2019 11:33am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I would imagine they just place more value in animals than they do in plants and consider them more sentient. Like an Oran Utang experiences some manner of feelings and pain etc whereas a field of wheat doesnt. Humans need to eat something, eat plants and insects dying from sprays etc is probably the least impact we can have on the planet and animals suffering.
People are eating more and more meat though, more than ever and it's cheap too, so what a few vegans think really shouldn't matter, it's about as irrelevant as the toilets for trans people issue, it wont affect any of us. So I really don't understand why it irks passionate meat eaters so much, you're only going to have more and more options for meat the way things are going.

Just two things. We generally dont eat Oran Utangs afaik ...

And it's not just plants and insects "dying from sprays". It remains that it is estimated that some 7.3 billion land animals etc are killed each year through the processes of land cultivation and harvesting of crops and horticultural produce.

04-07-2019 11:34am

Uncharted wrote: »

In my opinion,animals bred exclusively for the food industry don't have choice or free will.

They are products. Links in a chain if you will.

I don't consider them as wild sentient graceful animals,I consider them as food.

Just to probe that line of thinking for the fun of it. Could Human Slavery be justified - or at least made less unjustifiable - if the slaves in question were bred under the right conditions?

To use your words as much as possible to word this: If they were bred entirely in captivity - exclusively for the slave industry - and as products - then by the reasoning you offer above they are products and not "wild sentient" and free. So it would be ok? Or at least not as bad? For them to be slaves.

Not sure this line of reasoning works for me. Their level of rights and freedoms should be based on who/what they are - not their pedigree, lineage, or breeding conditions.

Thelonious Monk · 04-07-2019 11:43am

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So if we all went Vegan then surely cows , chickens and Pigs would disappear form the planet ?

So strangely enough the fact we eat them is the only reason they are still here,

Would you rather to never be born or born to live in a cage for a few weeks and then be destroyed?

Thelonious Monk · 04-07-2019 11:46am

seasidedub wrote: »

Personally I love how vegans stand for humanity and the planet. Refusing to eat a local grass fed free roaming cow/sheep etc, but blissfully chowing down on a quinoa burger made with grains grown in South America and creating a massive carbon footprint as well as forcing clearances of indigenous lands and rai forest, ditto avocados, or chomping on soy based products possibly grown with Monsanto franken-seeds. And not to mention the carbon footprint of their trips to yoga places in India, Bali etc.....

Do Lough Derg on your knees, porridge, few local rashers, bit of turnip and few spuds, pint of Guinness for the barley and they'd be better off, so would the planet

Im pretty sure many Irish cows are fed certain amounts of South American soy with their feed. I couldn't tell you where vegans go on holidays but meat eaters jet around the globe too and eat imported foods. Whether people fly or not, eating less meat is good for the planet.

Link below is about importing feed for Irish animals

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiSreuRi5vjAhX6ThUIHWm9CVMQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishexaminer.com%2Fbreakingnews%2Ffarming%2Fwe-depend-two-times-more-on-imported-animal-feed-than-our-neighbours-832683.html&psig=AOvVaw2hRUPjc5MTNXQP7l5vXDH4&ust=1562323614590107

archer22 · 04-07-2019 11:48am

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So if we all went Vegan then surely cows , chickens and Pigs would disappear form the planet ?

So strangely enough the fact we eat them is the only reason they are still here,

It's not exactly that their lives are worth living though is it.

The only time majority of Pigs and Chickens ever get to see the Sun is the day they are taken out to be killed!.

yourdeadwright · 04-07-2019 11:49am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Would you rather to never be born or born to live in a cage for a few weeks and then be destroyed?

Cows don't live in a cage ,either do a lot of pig's or chickens

We are made to eat meat ,

AudreyHepburn · 04-07-2019 11:49am

I’m an avid nature lover and passionate about conservation but I am also a meat eater and I don’t believe the two are incompatible.

I have no problem with anyone being vegetarian or vegan but I don’t like how nowadays the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle is shoved in our faces on social media and other platforms.

I am well aware for instance that I am eating a fish (salmon) with my lunch as a type - I don’t want or need anyone telling me this makes me cruel or heartless or makes me a monster when nothing could be further from the truth.

Thelonious Monk · 04-07-2019 11:51am

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m an avid nature lover and passionate about conservation but I am also a meat eater and I don’t believe the two are incompatible.

I have no problem with anyone being vegetarian or vegan but I don’t like how nowadays the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle is shoved in our faces on social media and other platforms.

I am well aware for instance that I am eating a fish (salmon) with my lunch as a type - I don’t want or need anyone telling me this makes me cruel or heartless or makes me a monster when nothing could be further from the truth.

If it's farmed which it probably Is, you might want to look into the damage salmon farming does to the oceans. Sorry, lol.

GreeBo · 04-07-2019 11:52am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Read about the Bay of Bengal and fish stocks there, or what happened to the Newfoundland cod stocks. Do people think we can just keep exhausting the oceans of fish indefinitely? You honestly think fish stocks haven't been dangerously depleted since massive trawlers and destructive methods came into commercial fishing? Or what about salmon?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/lifestyle/outdoorsandgarden/salmon-numbers-declining-despite-best-efforts-910010.html

But no, fish stocks are just fine

Oh and my own experience with mackerel is that there's f*ck all of them left in the Irish sea, whereas when I was a kid you could fish out as many as you liked. I spoke to a guy at Bullock harbour who rents boats out last September and there had been less than 10 mackerel caught on his boats that season so far.

Or here's a bunch of scientists saying seafood stocks are going to collapse but what would they know

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120920-are-we-running-out-of-fish

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533125/All-seafood-will-run-out-in-2050-say-scientists.html

What about Kale?
Supplies are dangerously low since veganism took off over the last 5 years.

Unless you are advocating battery kale?:eek:

Thelonious Monk · 04-07-2019 11:53am

GreeBo wrote: »

What about Kale?
Supplies are dangerously low since veganism took off over the last 5 years.

Unless you are advocating battery kale?:eek:

This is the level of argument you're up against in these discussions

archer22 · 04-07-2019 11:54am

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m an avid nature lover and passionate about conservation but I am also a meat eater and I don’t believe the two are incompatible.

I have no problem with anyone being vegetarian or vegan but I don’t like how nowadays the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle is shoved in our faces on social media and other platforms.

I am well aware for instance that I am eating a fish (salmon) with my lunch as a type - I don’t want or need anyone telling me this makes me cruel or heartless or makes me a monster when nothing could be further from the truth.

Take a look around here..every thread on the subject is started by some meat eater attacking others who don't share their views.
I don't see it happening the other way.

Deebles McBeebles · 04-07-2019 11:56am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

This is the level of argument you're up against in these discussions

Best leave him to it and carry on with your food choices as you see fit. As we have seen in previous threads, there's just no point.

Uncharted · 04-07-2019 12:01pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just to probe that line of thinking for the fun of it. Could Human Slavery be justified - or at least made less unjustifiable - if the slaves in question were bred under the right conditions?

To use your words as much as possible to word this: If they were bred entirely in captivity - exclusively for the slave industry - and as products - then by the reasoning you offer above they are products and not "wild sentient" and free. So it would be ok? Or at least not as bad? For them to be slaves.

Not sure this line of reasoning works for me. Their level of rights and freedoms should be based on who/what they are - not their pedigree, lineage, or breeding conditions.

Eh.... human slavery ??

Whut ? Who's mentioning anything of the kind?

Quite the leap there.

Uncharted · 04-07-2019 12:02pm

Animals bred for consumption are inferior to humans.

They are products in a food chain.

04-07-2019 12:02pm

Uncharted wrote: »

Eh.... human slavery ??

Whut ? Who's mentioning anything of the kind?

Quite the leap there.

It is not a leap it is an analogy.

The point being that your claim was that their having been bred in captivity - with the intention to make them a product - meant they do not have choice or free will.

So my question is - why is that line of reasoning not equally applicable everywhere? Such as human slavery. If free will and choice is precluded by their being bred in captivity with a purpose - then what prevents the same reasoning being applied in other contexts? If being bred exclusively for an industry - your words - modifies which rights you get or do not get - why is this not equally true elsewhere? Why is that not equally a valid argument about humans - who are also animals by the way. What if I was breeding humans "exclusively for the food industry" for example?

Uncharted · 04-07-2019 12:05pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is not a leap it is an analogy.

The point being that your claim was that their having been bred in captivity - with the intention to make them a product - meant they do not have choice or free will.

So my question is - why is that line of reasoning not equally applicable everywhere? Such as human slavery. If free will and choice is precluded by their being bred in captivity with a purpose - then what prevents the same reasoning being applied in other contexts?

Your line of reasoning is not applicable because animals bred for consumption,by definition, are not in the same sphere of relevance or importance as the humans that bred them.

They are a food stuff. A product. Nothing more.

AudreyHepburn · 04-07-2019 12:06pm

archer22 wrote: »

Take a look around here..every thread on the subject is started by some meat eater attacking others who don't share their views.
I don't see it happening the other way.

Then you might want to spend a little time on social media. This swings both ways whether you like it or not.

Deebles McBeebles · 04-07-2019 12:08pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Then you might want to spend a little time on social media. This swings both ways whether you like it or not.

Might I suggest a little less time on social media, Audrey? Talk to some vegans in real life, don't mind the posts from the extremist fools that pop up on your FB feed.

AudreyHepburn · 04-07-2019 12:08pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

If it's farmed which it probably Is, you might want to look into the damage salmon farming does to the oceans. Sorry, lol.

And this exactly the blustering snobbery that I hate - can you not just let people enjoy their food without trying to guilt trip them.

The salmon I eat is not farmed but caught in the wild and sustainably.

04-07-2019 12:08pm

Uncharted wrote: »

Your line of reasoning is not applicable because animals bred for consumption,by definition, are not in the same sphere of relevance or importance as the humans that bred them.

They are a food stuff. A product. Nothing more.

Humans are animals.

You said "In my opinion,animals bred exclusively for the food industry don't have choice or free will."

Therefore by your reasoning Humans bred exclusively for the food industry would also not have choice or free will. They would not be in "the same sphere of relevance or importance as the humans that bred them".

I am just not able to make sense of your reasoning here. Take the Wild Pig that is sometimes hunted to eat in the wild - and sometimes bred in captivity. They are both the same species of pig - essentially the same animal. I do not see why one should have any more - or less - rights due to the circumstances of it's breeding.

I am perfectly happy to eat both! I do not need caveats to justify either to myself. I quite enjoy wild pig to be honest. I am just trying to work out how your reasoning on the matter works and if it makes any sense to me. So far it doesn't.

Thelonious Monk · 04-07-2019 12:10pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

And this exactly the blustering snobbery that I hate - can you not just let people enjoy their food without trying to guilt trip them.

The salmon I eat is not farmed but caught in the wild and sustainably.

Sooner or later no, we will have to change what people eat one way or another.

AudreyHepburn · 04-07-2019 12:11pm

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Might I suggest a little less time on social media, Audrey? Talk to some vegans in real life, don't mind the posts from the extremist fools that pop up on your FB feed.

If they’re like that online why should they be any different in real life? I’ve talked to people of all extremes and it’s the fanatics that are the most visible unfortunately.

Deebles McBeebles · 04-07-2019 12:18pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If they’re like that online why should they be any different in real life? I’ve talked to people of all extremes and it’s the fanatics that are the most visible unfortunately.

Do you think people say the same things in everyday life as they do on Boards for example? Same on FB, its full of posers and people being extreme for the sake of it.

Thelonious Monk · 04-07-2019 12:21pm

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Do you think people say the same things in everyday life as they do on Boards for example? Same on FB, its full of posers and people being extreme for the sake of it.

As I keep saying, we're eating more meat now than ever, across the world, the industry is growing. I don't know why people feel so threatened by a few idiots on facebook. In the Tesco beside my job they sell bits of ready to eat chicken in a bag as if it's crisps. Small snacks for a euro of ham and dip, or chicken tikka and yoghurt. There's more and more meat served in different cheaper more accessible ways. Vegans aren't having much of an impact on the current trends!

Uncharted · 04-07-2019 12:22pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Humans are animals.

You said "In my opinion,animals bred exclusively for the food industry don't have choice or free will."

Therefore by your reasoning Humans bred exclusively for the food industry would also not have choice or free will. They would not be in "the same sphere of relevance or importance as the humans that bred them".

I am just not able to make sense of your reasoning here. Take the Wild Pig that is sometimes hunted to eat in the wild - and sometimes bred in captivity. They are both the same species of pig - essentially the same animal. I do not see why one should have any more - or less - rights due to the circumstances of it's breeding.

I am perfectly happy to eat both! I do not need caveats to justify either to myself. I quite enjoy wild pig to be honest. I am just trying to work out how your reasoning on the matter works and if it makes any sense to me. So far it doesn't.

You're talking about HUMANS being bred for the food industry ?? Hypothetically or whatever road you wish to travel.

Am I right?

Deebles McBeebles · 04-07-2019 12:24pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Vegans aren't having much of an impact on the current trends!

True, T. Give it time. As you well know it has to happen sooner or later.

dodderangler · 04-07-2019 12:41pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So if we all went Vegan then surely cows , chickens and Pigs would disappear form the planet ?

So strangely enough the fact we eat them is the only reason they are still here,

Na vegans would keep them in sanctuaries and give them the right to vote aswell. And.soon we’ll be able to marry a chicken if we wanted to. Well vegans want to

dodderangler · 04-07-2019 12:41pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If they’re like that online why should they be any different in real life? I’ve talked to people of all extremes and it’s the fanatics that are the most visible unfortunately.

They’re no different except they shout more

04-07-2019 12:42pm

Uncharted wrote: »

You're talking about HUMANS being bred for the food industry ?? Hypothetically or whatever road you wish to travel.

Am I right?

I am using an analogy to humans to try and understand your thinking on the matter.

Your thinking appears to be that two otherwise identical animals have different rights - based on the circumstances and intent of their breeding.

I can not understand that reasoning. So I am trying to. And part of trying to is to ascertain the limits of that reasoning by applying the same reasoning to other situations. Because if I can understand why you think that reasoning applies in some situations - and not others - I might better understand the reasoning.

So if an animal - any animal - has less rights if it is specifically bred for the food industry - or any industry really - then why?? And if this is the case why does it _not_ apply to all animals including humans? Why does a human bred specifically for slavery or food not have less rights than any other human if - as you suggest - other animals would?

Thelonious Monk · 04-07-2019 12:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

So if an animal - any animal - has less rights if it is specifically bred for the food industry - or any industry really - then why?? And if this is the case why does it _not_ apply to all animals including humans? Why does a human bred specifically for slavery or food not have less rights than any other human if - as you suggest - other animals would?

Because he believes in human rights (I hope) but not animal rights. Simple as that. People wont eat dog but will eat pig, it's normal. Some animals are more equal than others.

Thelonious Monk · 04-07-2019 12:49pm

dodderangler wrote: »

They’re no different except they shout more

How would you even know? The way you go on it sounds like you never met anyone outside of your local boozer.

Panch18 · 04-07-2019 12:49pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Because he believes in human rights (I hope) but not animal rights. Simple as that. People wont eat dog but will eat pig, it's normal. Some animals are more equal than others.

Plenty of people eat dog - just not common on this side of the world

Uncharted · 04-07-2019 12:51pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Because he believes in human rights (I hope) but not animal rights. Simple as that. People wont eat dog but will eat pig, it's normal. Some animals are more equal than others.

This guy gets it.

AustinLostin · 04-07-2019 12:51pm

Panch18 wrote: »

Plenty of people eat dog - just not common on this side of the world

Yeah but you can't go hunting for dog in Ireland. It's illegal. So animals aren't just here for us to eat/kill.

04-07-2019 12:52pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Because he believes in human rights (I hope) but not animal rights. Simple as that. People wont eat dog but will eat pig, it's normal. Some animals are more equal than others.

Sure but his reasoning as it is worded seems to apply to otherwise identical animals _within_ a species too. That is the bit I am not getting too. And actually plenty of people do eat dog. And horse. Just depends which country you happen to be in.

I agree though - I do not think animal rights actually exist. Animal rights are actually a subset of human rights.

dodderangler · 04-07-2019 12:52pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

How would you even know? The way you go on it sounds like you never met anyone outside of your local boozer.

Because I’m a hunter. I’ve met every dickhead vegan out there. I’ve had them shout st me etc while I’ve been out hunting and evenings shop because they spotted me as hunter. I’m satan psychopath etc. Future murderer of people etc. Shouting at me once in front of my child. So yes I have met the lot of them. Nice try though

Thelonious Monk · 04-07-2019 12:54pm

dodderangler wrote: »

Because I’m a hunter. I’ve met every dickhead vegan out there. I’ve had them shout st me etc while I’ve been out hunting and evenings shop because they spotted me as hunter. I’m satan psychopath etc. Future murderer of people etc. Shouting at me once in front of my child. So yes I have met the lot of them. Nice try though

Personally I don't have a problem with hunting and fishing for hobbyists. I used to do a lot of fishing myself, only the last few times there was absolutely nothing out there so I haven't been in a few years.

dodderangler · 04-07-2019 12:54pm

AustinLostin wrote: »

Yeah but you can't go hunting for dog in Ireland. It's illegal. So animals aren't just here for us to eat/kill.

Wild or feral dogs don’t enter that category. If a dog especially wild or feral is on farmland it can be shot to stop it doing damage against livestock. So yes they can be hunted and shot. It’s huge in Australia. They’re killing thousands of livestock.

Animals are here for us to kill, eat..

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