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BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion
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end of the road wrote: »but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.
Do you think the interests of a private group of people should come before the public when it comes to the provision of a public transport system for the state?
Or do you think that a public transport system should be run for the benefit of the public first and foremost?0 -
end of the road wrote: »but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.
Can you explain that more in the context of these plans? I don't understand how rerouting some buses would affect members of NBRU in a negative way. If there were planned redundancies I could understand, but if anything, these changes may protect the jobs of his members into the future.
I actually agree bus drivers should have an input into any changes. They probably know the city and the bus users better than anyone and could be really valuable in devising plans. But I would see this as a positive rather than a union looking after the interests of their members.0 -
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So tell me how are route changes going to effect workers and t+c's.
ask the union leaders. i'm sure they will tell you if and how the changes would negatively effect the workers should they do, when the changes are known.Do you think the interests of a private group of people should come before the public when it comes to the provision of a public transport system for the state?
Or do you think that a public transport system should be run for the benefit of the public first and foremost?
what has that got to do with what i said? you all ready know the answer to the question. the service must benefit the user. the unions still have to look after their members interests.I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.
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Nonsense. Everybody wants the bus stop at their door but nobody wants the bus stopping every 300m. It just doesn't work.end of the road wrote: »public consultation is the only acceptible way now and rightly so. we are the users of the service and we are entitled to a say on how our service is operated, and a say we must get. it's the users who will know if the service meets their needs after all.
It's long overdue that the network be redrawn from scratch for the city that exists today. People will have to accept that to deliver a system that works effectively, we need an actual network that is designed around changing bus (or mode).
At major interchanges bus stations should be built that enable changing bus without stepping I to the rain.0 -
I think this news from the NTA sounds very encouraging.
If they were to radically change the Dublin Bus network by aiming to run 7 days a week; they would have to make changes to current arrangements regarding bus services not running on Sundays & Bank Holidays/Public Holidays. I live along Newtownpark Avenue in Blackrock. The local bus service to Blackrock village the 114 from Ticknock in it's many variations has not run a Sunday service to this area for 30 years. It currently serves a total of 2 Luas stops in Sandyford & Stillorgan Luas stop nearby it's own bus stops. I suppose that if the 114 was changed to an entirely new route; it would mean that it will have to include a Sunday service to it's timetable which would bring a lot of good to the purpose of the route.
If major wholesale changes are around for the network from next year; the route could possibly be scrapped to make way for a new route if that was necessary.
The 7B & 7D that run along the Fleurville & Benamore Road in Newtownpark Avenue, even though they are peak service routes, has the same problem in not running on the weekends or the Bank Holidays.
The 111 was recently changed last year to include connections to connect with the DART in Dalkey, Glenageary, Sandycove & Glasthule & Dun Laoghaire Station all the way to the Luas Terminus in Bride's Glen. It also has a link to St Columcille's Hospital in Loughlinstown and still it has no Sunday service since it received it's new route & timetable which is a crying shame. If Dublin Bus & the NTA are serious about including services along major Luas corridors when Luas CC opens; they would need to have routes run daily services along them to address needs from Luas passengers.
Dublin Bus would need to modernize arrangements to include Sunday & Bank Holiday timetables for routes which currently do not run services on these days to cater for connecting services like the DART & Luas. They would also need to address changes to arrangements & current demands for routes that solely run at peak times.
Dublin Bus would also probably need to address what new route changes are necessary to the North Wicklow area including Bray.0 -
Public consultations are going to lead to bus stops every hundred yards and buses going down every back alley.
We need less public consultation, and more of a dictatorial approach by professionals.
Here's part of Jarrett Walker's take on it... They seem to be about more than box ticking...We?ve all heard the cynical responses to public outreach:
?They?ve already made their decision. This outreach is just for show.?
?They?re not answering our questions.?
?Why are the meetings way over there, at a time when I can?t get to them??
?I don?t like any of these alternatives!?
Still, great planning can?t move forward without effective engagement with the public and stakeholders. Key players who have major influence over a project must feel involved in a way that respects their influence. Meanwhile, the largest possible public must be engaged in substantive, two-way conversation.
Great outreach isn?t a public meeting where everyone testifies for five minutes and then goes home, or writes online comments and gets nothing back but an automated thank-you. It?s a two-way engagement in which the participants are heard but also educated about the real choices that are before the community, and encouraged to think about different perspectives on the question, not just the one they came in with.
Jarrett Walker has been innovating on public outreach for over a decade, designing distinctive outreach approaches for each problem while pioneering new techniques. His theatre background also makes him attentive to crucial issues of room layout, furnishing, lighting, and so on, which can have profound impacts on the proceedings.
The keys to his approach are to:
Encourage citizens to discuss the issue with each other, not just with officials. Citizens at round tables talking with each other can explore their disagreements in intimate discussion, and come away better understanding the range of views that the agency is hearing. They can also begin probing, on their own, possible paths to consensus.
Engage participants in solving the real problem. Avoid presenting the issue as ?Here is our proposal, what do you think?? Instead, construct interactive exercises in which the participants can work on the problem themselves, testing their own ideas. Jarrett is especially engaged in the development of online tools of this type, as well as meeting techniques.
Present multiple alternatives designed to illustrate the real issue. When doing network designs and similar transit plans, Jarrett often recommends developing multiple alternatives that are carefully sculpted to draw public discussion to a difficult policy issue and build understanding of it.
An example of the last item is the tradeoff between planning for ridership and planning for coverage or social service outcomes, the subject of Chapter 10 of Human Transit and of his Journal of Transport Geography paper, ?Purpose driven public transport: creating a clear conversation about public transport goals.?
Ridership goals (?maximize ridership? or ?minimize subsidy/passenger?) are inevitably in tension with Coverage goals (?respond to social service needs,? or ?ensure that __% of population/jobs are within __m walk of a transit stop?). Few policymakers, and even fewer citizens, have been asked to think clearly about the choice. Jarrett often recommends developing multiple network scenarios ? even if not credibly proposed for implementation ? simply for the purpose of illustrating this tradeoff and building understanding of it.
MORE: http://jarrettwalker.com/consulting-services/outreach/
I don't know much about them until I heard Walker on the Strong Towns podcast recently.0 -
What annoys about these public consultations is its usually a vocal majority ruining it for a silent majority. These people who get inolved are usually the kind who think Dublin Bus is perfect because it goes outside their door they dont complain about how things are currently they only complain when they try to change things for the better.0
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Updated timetables on poles at bus stops would be another immediate improvement. My regular route has timetables that are around 5 years out of date, showing the wrong times and the wrong terminus. They have up to date fares so they're recent prints.
No attention to detail at all...0 -
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Updated timetables on poles at bus stops would be another immediate improvement. My regular route has timetables that are around 5 years out of date, showing the wrong times and the wrong terminus. They have up to date fares so they're recent prints.
No attention to detail at all...
I think that you will find that they are correct.
Lucan QBC routes have timetables from the terminus, and then also intermediate times from Pearse Street - the stops beyond that point display those times
http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/66a/
http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/11979/66a_(2)_from_pearse_st_towards_leixlip_captains_hill_Dec_2015.pdf (also linked on the timetable page).0 -
Spanish Eyes wrote: »Flat fare, no interraction with driver, prepaid tickets, like abroad.
Expand the distances between bus stops.
ORBITAL ROUTES please. The lack thereof is causing much of the gridlock in the city centre.
I live in hope.
Orbital routes are considered heresy, seems the preference is to pretend that dublin can runs routes like its a rail system.
Whoever's on about updating the timetable, why would you do that? the timetables have little to do with whats actually running at a given point. an real time system that actually operates in real time would be a better investment0 -
I think that you will find that they are correct.
Lucan QBC routes have timetables from the terminus, and then also intermediate times from Pearse Street - the stops beyond that point display those times
http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/66a/
http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/11979/66a_(2)_from_pearse_st_towards_leixlip_captains_hill_Dec_2015.pdf (also linked on the timetable page).
Why mislead customers into thinking the route starts at Pearse St (historically it started outside Trinity), and also have a printed timetable different from the online timetable.
From experience the time they supposedly leave Pearse St is the time they're at Grattan Bridge. I got on the "22.40" tonight at 22.38 at the Workman's.0 -
Nonsense. Everybody wants the bus stop at their door but nobody wants the bus stopping every 300m. It just doesn't work.
It's long overdue that the network be redrawn from scratch for the city that exists today. People will have to accept that to deliver a system that works effectively, we need an actual network that is designed around changing bus (or mode).
At major interchanges bus stations should be built that enable changing bus without stepping I to the rain.
i believe that as the people use it, they are entitled to have a say on it's operations. an individual must not expect to get everything or even anything they might want, but they do have a right to be consulted on their services. it's reasonable in a democratic society. nothing stopping the relevant people from implementing as you suggest but there is a duty to consult the people and that does have to continue. people also must engage with the process however.I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.
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What needs to happen with this review is examining how to reduce our car dependence. For example, lets look at the M50. It is exceeding boom levels and is regularly an impromptu car park. While this is largely due to accidents, it is also the result of people opting for the car because the public transport alternative is either far more time consuming or non-existent.
In my case, I am doing a round trip from Dalkey to Citywest Monday to Friday because it is 30 minutes by car each way versus 2 hours per direction by DART and Luas. Now, if there was a public transport alternative which took an hour door-to-door, I might consider it. Sadly, the lack there of as a result of an equal lack of will power prolongs my dependence on the car.
Unfortunately, many of the bus journeys exceed an hour in length because of bus stops in quick succession and meandering through housing estates. As a result, would-be commuters along these routes end up driving to their destination given that it can be done in a fraction of the time. A lot of people might defend the meandering through housing estates because that is where people live. With this logic, why not have train lines operating through housing estates with stations every 100 meters?
The answer to this is, you don't as doing so would be ludicrous. Most housing estates are built next to distributor (or arterial) roads where buses currently operate (or at least should). In my opinion, buses need to behave more like a rapid transit system by using distributor (or arterial) roads and less like a chauffeur service with the current meandering that goes on.
After all, a lot of housing estates are currently being considered either for 30 KM/H speed limits, traffic calming or both which will likely lengthen the bus journeys even further. So, my take on this is that if you want to have traffic calming along roads then don't expect buses or their passengers to be inconvenienced by them.
I've said it numerous times before and I will say it again, speed is one of the crucial factors in public transport planning. So, we should be looking at reducing the length of time it takes to get from A to B to make the bus an attractive alternative to the car. Ergo, current motorists will be able to get to work in a timely manner leading to better punctuality.
For the sake of current regular Dublin Bus users, I hope that this is not another Network Direct Project. All this did was merging routes which in a twist of irony, made them less direct given the higher instances of meandering leading to the nickname Network "They Wrecked". If it is, I expect congestion on the M50 and the city to get exponentially worse.
Given the increasing number of cyclists, it would be a good time for Dublin Bus to retro-fit its current fleet with toe-bars and bike trailers for people who might be cycling part of their way to work. That way, if the nearest bus stop is a good distance away and where the overall journey is difficult to cycle, commuters could cycle to their nearest bus stop and mount their bike on the carrying trailer. This would be a good way of encouraging multi-modal or hybrid journeys!:D0 -
end of the road wrote: »i believe that as the people use it, they are entitled to have a say on it's operations. an individual must not expect to get everything or even anything they might want, but they do have a right to be consulted on their services. it's reasonable in a democratic society. nothing stopping the relevant people from implementing as you suggest but there is a duty to consult the people and that does have to continue. people also must engage with the process however.
A very simple requirement should be bus stops are a minimum of 5 minutes walk apart. I live equidistant from two stops, and it's a one minute walk to both.0 -
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patrickbrophy18 wrote: »What needs to happen with this review is examining how to reduce our car dependence. For example, lets look at the M50. It is exceeding boom levels and is regularly an impromptu car park. While this is largely due to accidents, it is also the result of people opting for the car because the public transport alternative is either far more time consuming or non-existent.
In my case, I am doing a round trip from Dalkey to Citywest Monday to Friday because it is 30 minutes by car each way versus 2 hours per direction by DART and Luas. Now, if there was a public transport alternative which took an hour door-to-door, I might consider it. Sadly, the lack there of as a result of an equal lack of will power prolongs my dependence on the car.
Unfortunately, many of the bus journeys exceed an hour in length because of bus stops in quick succession and meandering through housing estates. As a result, would-be commuters along these routes end up driving to their destination given that it can be done in a fraction of the time. A lot of people might defend the meandering through housing estates because that is where people live. With this logic, why not have train lines operating through housing estates with stations every 100 meters?
The answer to this is, you don't as doing so would be ludicrous. Most housing estates are built next to distributor (or arterial) roads where buses currently operate (or at least should). In my opinion, buses need to behave more like a rapid transit system by using distributor (or arterial) roads and less like a chauffeur service with the current meandering that goes on.
After all, a lot of housing estates are currently being considered either for 30 KM/H speed limits, traffic calming or both which will likely lengthen the bus journeys even further. So, my take on this is that if you want to have traffic calming along roads then don't expect buses or their passengers to be inconvenienced by them.
I've said it numerous times before and I will say it again, speed is one of the crucial factors in public transport planning. So, we should be looking at reducing the length of time it takes to get from A to B to make the bus an attractive alternative to the car. Ergo, current motorists will be able to get to work in a timely manner leading to better punctuality.
For the sake of current regular Dublin Bus users, I hope that this is not another Network Direct Project. All this did was merging routes which in a twist of irony, made them less direct given the higher instances of meandering leading to the nickname Network "They Wrecked". If it is, I expect congestion on the M50 and the city to get exponentially worse.
Given the increasing number of cyclists, it would be a good time for Dublin Bus to retro-fit its current fleet with toe-bars and bike trailers for people who might be cycling part of their way to work. That way, if the nearest bus stop is a good distance away and where the overall journey is difficult to cycle, commuters could cycle to their nearest bus stop and mount their bike on the carrying trailer. This would be a good way of encouraging multi-modal or hybrid journeys!:D
To be fair I dont think too many people apart from yourself really want to go from Dalkey to Citywest. I could be wrong mind you. Public should at where a group of people in a particular area want to go and not individuals like yourself. If there there is sufficient demand then it should certainly be considered I hope we have learned our lesson of running riddiculous routes with low demand like the old 86.
Quite a lot of bus routes that take longer than an hour exist not because people want go from terminus to terminus but people make journeys in between the two termini for example the 75 not many really want to go from Dun Laoghaire all the way to Tallaght but rather people want to go from Dun Laoghaire to Dundrum, Dundrum to Tallaght, Stillorgan to Nutgrove, Nutgrove to Firhouse, Dundrum to Deansgrange or Ballinteer to Firhouse.
There isn't really that many bus routes that go into housing estates most veer off the main roads to serve Villages, Shopping Centres, Hospitals etc. rather housing estates.
Some of what Network Direct did made sense unfortunately a lot of the changes proposed had to be scaled back due to local opposition. One of the successes was the 46a having it skip its diversions to serve Monkstown Farm and Stillorgan Village. Sending the 145 to Hueston IMO was a success it gave passengers from Bray and South Dublin better access to Hueston and The Quays.
I dont know if putting bike toebars on its vehicles as it would probably drive drivers crazy, increase dwell times and create a potenial H and S problem. Imagine the following scenario Bike owner fails to secure bike properly, bike falls off rack, bus runs over bike and crashes and a lawsuit follows. A more practical solution would probably be allowing bike owners to board with their bike with a special area on board for storing bikes thats not blocking the wheelchair area I could only see this working off peak. This system has only really been used in North America and never in Europe where PT tends to be of lower quality than Europe. I find this somewhat strange as Europe tends to be more cyclist and PT friendly0 -
end of the road wrote: »public consultation is the only acceptible way now and rightly so. we are the users of the service and we are entitled to a say on how our service is operated, and a say we must get. it's the users who will know if the service meets their needs after all.
As someone involved in politics for years let me assure you public consultations are not about consulting the public, they are about pretending you have consulted them so they can't complain later.
The problem, like (most) TD clinics, is, while you do get a few genuine submissions and even the odd shockingly coherent intelligent submission, they also tend to attract the professional moaner brigade like the Richard Boyd Barrets of the world and their cohort, not to mention the classic moaning Liveline caller who will, with a str8 face, when confronted with the fact that a rail line has only a handful of passengers a week counter you with "well I use it"...and thinks this is some kind of devastating point.
I don't mean to sound undemocratic, but there are some things that should be primarily (primarily...PRIMARILY!!!!!!) left to professionals. If you want to have an idea of how disastrously uninformed the average voter is (NOT stupid, uninformed) just look at the Guardians focus group series for the election in the UK, you'll hear things like "i want to vote labour but nothings changing so I'll be voting conservative (the former having been out of power for 7 years, thus not changing anything). You'll hear people say they vote for May because she's dressing better than Corbyn, you'll hear people say they voted remain but are now voting UKIP...it's mental. The IT did one on Irish voters before the last election, they thought we spent I think it was 25% of the budget on overseas aid, they thought we spent billions on refugees and that politicians expenses were one of the main budget items...people haven't a f___king clue, it's not PC to say it but really...they don't.
Sure they know they'd prefer to keep the 45 and all but they are looking at it from their own individual perspective but these decisions should be made with the strategic picture in mind, zoomed out looking at the big picture. I'm not saying they should not be consulted, as I said you do, quite by accident, get a few intelligent submissions at these things (they make up maybe 1% or less though), but we should not put too much weight on them.
Remember, everyone near the Port Tunnel who now praises it whinged and moaned about it, everyone along most of the Luas routes whinged and moaned about the disruption and now they take it 100% for granted to have a Luas.0 -
A US based consultancy will redesign our bus system, because yanks are great at public transport :rolleyes: and this is a FG lead initiative, cost reduction will be central. The plan will probably result in removing bus lanes and building more central car parks.
Also I note the timeline public consultation to completion inside 12 months, hmm something tells me this was supposed to be done long before the new luas opens.
Keep in mind the US is not one stereotypical red state capitalism on steroids monolith. Plenty of states value good quality public transport like California, NY, Vermont, even individual cities in red states.0 -
To be fair I dont think too many people apart from yourself really want to go from Dalkey to Citywest. I could be wrong mind you. Public should at where a group of people in a particular area want to go and not individuals like yourself. If there there is sufficient demand then it should certainly be considered I hope we have learned our lesson of running riddiculous routes with low demand like the old 86.
It was merely an example. However, a journey like this wouldn't be non-stop if that is how it came across. It would traverse all the key areas without the type of meandering that plagues the likes of the 75.Quite a lot of bus routes that take longer than an hour exist not because people want go from terminus to terminus but people make journeys in between the two termini for example the 75 not many really want to go from Dun Laoghaire all the way to Tallaght but rather people want to go from Dun Laoghaire to Dundrum, Dundrum to Tallaght, Stillorgan to Nutgrove, Nutgrove to Firhouse, Dundrum to Deansgrange or Ballinteer to Firhouse.
From using this particular route the entire way from Dun Laoghaire to Tallaght, it did penetrate quite a few housing estates. This is where the 175 is badly needed so that there are 2 dedicated faster routes than a single convoluted and less direct one. That way, it's more effective and current motorists might be dissuaded from using their cars.There isn't really that many bus routes that go into housing estates most veer off the main roads to serve Villages, Shopping Centres, Hospitals etc. rather housing estates.
In this case, a lot of the villages, shopping centers and hospitals are part of or at least en route to the destination from an alignment perspective. Having said that, some hospitals such as Laughlinstown Hospital are built in such a way which gives rise to detours on routes like the 111. In such instances, I think that there could either be mobility scooters (for disabled or mobility impaired patients), shuttle buses to the main road or airport style conveyor belts provided. The intention here would be to relieve buses from having to take detours.I dont know if putting bike toebars on its vehicles as it would probably drive drivers crazy, increase dwell times and create a potenial H and S problem.
If implemented correctly, their shouldn't be a H and S Problem nor one for dwell times. There would be if the implementation was sloppy.Imagine the following scenario Bike owner fails to secure bike properly, bike falls off rack, bus runs over bike and crashes and a lawsuit follows.
Think of the trailer as a cluster of bike lockers. It wouldn't be a rack like those seen mounted to cars where it would be a lawsuit waiting to happen.A more practical solution would probably be allowing bike owners to board with their bike with a special area on board for storing bikes thats not blocking the wheelchair area I could only see this working off peak.
Peak hours are the most crucial time from a travel perspective. Moreover, given the capacity issues of buses due to their finite size, a module such as a bike locker cluster trailer could alleviate this problem.This system has only really been used in North America and never in Europe where PT tends to be of lower quality than Europe. I find this somewhat strange as Europe tends to be more cyclist and PT friendly
This is where Ireland could be the best of both worlds!:)0 -
As someone involved in politics for years let me assure you public consultations are not about consulting the public, they are about pretending you have consulted them so they can't complain later.
The problem, like (most) TD clinics, is, while you do get a few genuine submissions and even the odd shockingly coherent intelligent submission, they also tend to attract the professional moaner brigade like the Richard Boyd Barrets of the world and their cohort, not to mention the classic moaning Liveline caller who will, with a str8 face, when confronted with the fact that a rail line has only a handful of passengers a week counter you with "well I use it"...and thinks this is some kind of devastating point.
I don't mean to sound undemocratic, but there are some things that should be primarily (primarily...PRIMARILY!!!!!!) left to professionals. If you want to have an idea of how disastrously uninformed the average voter is (NOT stupid, uninformed) just look at the Guardians focus group series for the election in the UK, you'll hear things like "i want to vote labour but nothings changing so I'll be voting conservative (the former having been out of power for 7 years, thus not changing anything). You'll hear people say they vote for May because she's dressing better than Corbyn, you'll hear people say they voted remain but are now voting UKIP...it's mental. The IT did one on Irish voters before the last election, they thought we spent I think it was 25% of the budget on overseas aid, they thought we spent billions on refugees and that politicians expenses were one of the main budget items...people haven't a f___king clue, it's not PC to say it but really...they don't.
Sure they know they'd prefer to keep the 45 and all but they are looking at it from their own individual perspective but these decisions should be made with the strategic picture in mind, zoomed out looking at the big picture. I'm not saying they should not be consulted, as I said you do, quite by accident, get a few intelligent submissions at these things (they make up maybe 1% or less though), but we should not put too much weight on them.
Remember, everyone near the Port Tunnel who now praises it whinged and moaned about it, everyone along most of the Luas routes whinged and moaned about the disruption and now they take it 100% for granted to have a Luas.
oh i'm well aware of why consultations happen and yes we still have an undemocratic system when it comes to them and outcomes from them. however we have to hope that 1 day we might get actual democracy and those in charge will listen, even if our suggestions genuinely can't be implemented.
professionals don't know whether the service meets one's needs or not, whereas the user does, so they can't simply be left to implement whatever, we all ready have proof of what happens when that route is taken.
i'm well aware how some of the electorate think both here and in the uk and i agree it would make you want to drink yourself into oblivian and as always some fellow irish love to moan whinge and all else sadly it's in their nature and won't change any time soon.I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.
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LuckyLloyd wrote: »Stop frequency can certainly be reviewed. But route coverage is an entirely different matter. Coverage is required in large suburban housing estate areas. Potentially the way to win the war here is buying imp type buses and putting them to work as people carriers from the depths of large estates out to main arteries. In the Ballyfermot / Finglas area I think the portions of the 79 / 40 that would be considered "extraneous" could be served in this fashion.
That's not easy mind. You need to plan in a manner completely different to the way in which the current network operates though and would require integrated ticketing and fare structures that don't currently exist for non Leap Card users (the bulk of the users affected by this particular topic).
But notions of just cutting service like this aren't realistic to be blunt about it.
Are there any of those type of feeder routes that have ever worked? The 56 did not, the proposed 68/69 to Red Cow under Network Direct was thankfully shouted down (69 certainly should never have thought to be a feeder).The 40 is far too long for a bus route. It should be split up into separate Northside and Southside routes.
Absolutely. The 13 must be longer and the same split should happen, but I would be astonished if they're touched.0 -
I grew up in Newcastle. The 68 is a slow bus compared to when I was a child, pulling into housing estates in Inchicore and along Monastery Road and following the SCR (it used to go direct from Clondalkin village to the Red Cow along Monastery Road and from there the most direct route into town along the Naas Road, Con Colbert Road, Heuston Station, North Quays, Parliament Street, Dame Street, Fleet Street.). I think people would be far better served by feeding in to Luas as long as the fare structure is changed so people aren't penalised for changing mode/bus.Are there any of those type of feeder routes that have ever worked? The 56 did not, the proposed 68/69 to Red Cow under Network Direct was thankfully shouted down
We need a mesh of routes that are frequent enough to genuinely allow rapid changes. In an ideal world with an arterial/orbital mesh, you should be able to reach the vast majority of destinations with 1 change and most people will continue to the city centre on the arterial routes anyway.
The poster who said routes should as far as possible stick to distributor roads is spot on.
People have to make their own way on foot out to the distributor roads to reach a quality, dependable service.0 -
There's some really interesting stuff on the blog of the company brought in to advise on this.
e.g. http://humantransit.org/2015/07/mega-explainer-the-ridership-recipe.htmlServices whose purpose is not ridership are called coverage services – or at least I’ve been calling them that for over a decade and the term is catching on. Coverage is an apt term because the result is usually to spread out service over a vast area so that everyone gets a little bit, no matter where they live.So you will not begin to make clear transit choices until you are clear, at every moment, about whether you want transit service to have high ridership. To the extent that you do, you need to tell transit agencies to think like businesses, which means deploying the service not where people feel entitled to it, or where they need it badly, but where the maximum ridership will result. On the other hand, if you do want to respond to people’s expectations and needs, you need to carve out an exception to your desire for high ridership, because high ridership is not, in fact, what you’re advocating.0 -
As a user of the cursed 18 bus (which goes everywhere in pairs) I would like to see the timetables reviewed. It's just nuts where I live, the buses are like the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse (none for ages and then they all come at once).0
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I grew up in Newcastle. The 68 is a slow bus compared to when I was a child, pulling into housing estates in Inchicore and along Monastery Road and following the SCR (it used to go direct from Clondalkin village to the Red Cow along Monastery Road and from there the most direct route into town along the Naas Road, Con Colbert Road, Heuston Station, North Quays, Parliament Street, Dame Street, Fleet Street.). I think people would be far better served by feeding in to Luas as long as the fare structure is changed so people aren't penalised for changing mode/bus.
We need a mesh of routes that are frequent enough to genuinely allow rapid changes. In an ideal world with an arterial/orbital mesh, you should be able to reach the vast majority of destinations with 1 change and most people will continue to the city centre on the arterial routes anyway.
The poster who said routes should as far as possible stick to distributor roads is spot on.
People have to make their own way on foot out to the distributor roads to reach a quality, dependable service.
Absolutely, the 68 is a lot less direct from Clondalkin to town, but it does do a roaring trade from Rialto inwards if there's no 122. It's a lot busier compared to the old direct route.
Either way, the current routing is still better than the Red Cow cut-off originally planned.0 -
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..........We need a mesh of routes that are frequent enough to genuinely allow rapid changes. In an ideal world with an arterial/orbital mesh, you should be able to reach the vast majority of destinations with 1 change and most people will continue to the city centre on the arterial routes anyway.
The poster who said routes should as far as possible stick to distributor roads is spot on.
People have to make their own way on foot out to the distributor roads to reach a quality, dependable service.
Spot on !
One of the very best examples of this counterproductive practice is the Number 44 route,from Enniskerry to DCU/ Helix Theatre,Collins Ave.
The last extension of the route from the old Larkhill terminus up to the DCU Campus opened up a sizeable and potentially very popular access route to both DCU and The Helix theatre.
With the former Southside meander around the Ballyogan Estate then abandoned to LUAS,itv was to be expected that the Larkhill Loop would be discontinued also.
Not a bit of it......Incredibly and frustratingly,for both Drivers/Controllers and the majority of Customers,the 44 is rammed through Larkhill IN BOTH DIRECTIONS on every journey,a process both silly,and potentially dangerous,during School Open and Closing times.
Yet,nowhere in Larkhill is more than 5 minutes walk from a "Distributor Road",either the Swords Road Corridor or Collins Avenue itself.
With a bit of luck,the NTA's chosen Consultant,being a 'Merican,will completely fail to appreciate the traditional attraction of diversions around estates and recommend their elimination ?
Roll on the day !!!Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Absolutely, the 68 is a lot less direct from Clondalkin to town, but it does do a roaring trade from Rialto inwards if there's no 122. It's a lot busier compared to the old direct route.
Either way, the current routing is still better than the Red Cow cut-off originally planned.
It may do a roaring trade in the absence of a 122, but that only puts pressure on the 68 to keep its running time. There are several departures on the 68 which are frequently late because of its meandering route, getting caught in traffic especially along the South Circular Road, Camden Street and Georges Street.
In fact, the Nitelink arrives in Newcastle before the last outbound 68 at weekends!
If the 68 was doing such a good job, there would have been no need to introduce the 68X, even if only the single journey that it is.0 -
Spot on !
One of the very best examples of this counterproductive practice is the Number 44 route,from Enniskerry to DCU/ Helix Theatre,Collins Ave.
The last extension of the route from the old Larkhill terminus up to the DCU Campus opened up a sizeable and potentially very popular access route to both DCU and The Helix theatre.
With the former Southside meander around the Ballyogan Estate then abandoned to LUAS,itv was to be expected that the Larkhill Loop would be discontinued also.
Not a bit of it......Incredibly and frustratingly,for both Drivers/Controllers and the majority of Customers,the 44 is rammed through Larkhill IN BOTH DIRECTIONS on every journey,a process both silly,and potentially dangerous,during School Open and Closing times.
Yet,nowhere in Larkhill is more than 5 minutes walk from a "Distributor Road",either the Swords Road Corridor or Collins Avenue itself.
With a bit of luck,the NTA's chosen Consultant,being a 'Merican,will completely fail to appreciate the traditional attraction of diversions around estates and recommend their elimination ?
Roll on the day !!!
The 44 is a route which is in urgent need of attention. Every day you'll see services operating as a 44C from Enniskerry to city centre only as the allocated running time is not enough. It just takes a sniff of a half price sale in Dundurm to grind the whole place to a halt and delay the 44. When you add in the parking problems in Ranelagh and the loop of Larkhill it makes the whole route unreliable. Its a shame because its a route which offers a lot, connecting shopping centres, hospitals, colleges, sports grounds and tourist spots.0 -
What they should do with the 44 is run it to Dundrum Luas every half hour or perhaps even more frequent then passengers could continue their onward journey on a Luas to Broombridge.0
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StreetLight wrote: »It may do a roaring trade in the absence of a 122, but that only puts pressure on the 68 to keep its running time. There are several departures on the 68 which are frequently late because of its meandering route, getting caught in traffic especially along the South Circular Road, Camden Street and Georges Street.
In fact, the Nitelink arrives in Newcastle before the last outbound 68 at weekends!
If the 68 was doing such a good job, there would have been no need to introduce the 68X, even if only the single journey that it is.
I would agree with a lot of what you say, but one thing the 68 has created is a new link between South Circular Road and Clondlakin. A good number of passengers board along the Camden Street/SCR section to travel beyond Inchicore.
If the route was to be removed they would need to increase the frequency of the 122. Between the 122, 68 and 68a in the mornings, most buses would carry good loadings.0 -
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I think that there does need to be a better mix of services:
* Express limited stop services linking outer suburbs with the city centre
* Key services operating directly along each corridor - serving main roads
* Local services serving communities & estates
* Inner and orbital services
All of these are needed - the key is getting the balance right.
I know that when the original plans for cutting the 68 and 69 at Red Cow were put forward, the volume of complaints was massive and they were shelved.
The only way that the idea of feeder services such as this could work is:
1) if there was time based multi-mode ticketing, with no penalties for taking a second mode; and
2) the feeder services are reasonably frequent ensuring people are not waiting long for another bus if they just miss one
The 68 does create a new link from the Kelly's Corner area towards Clondalkin - that's not necessarily a bad thing. But more bus priority measures are needed along the SCR.
As to bus stop spacing - the ideal spacing is 400m per TfL guidelines, although a closer spacing in town centres and residential areas may be necessary to meet passenger requirements.
While there are certainly some locations where stops could be removed or merged, I don't think the issue is quite as prevalent as some people suggest.
Personally, I believe increasing the number of Xpresso services at peak times would resolve that issue for most rather than removing vast swathes of stops.0 -
Dermot O'Leary is now giving out that staff arent being consulted on the changes. Absolutely digraceful no changes have even been drawn up yet and he's already giving out. Its nothing to do with unions anyway.
The wants of CIE staff and management have always been paramount in transport in Ireland. That's why you can hardly ever get from Dublin to the regions before 9am by rail and you sometimes can't even get to Dublin before 9am on some routes. You'll also see intercity routes being served by commuter trains with little seating and commuter routes being served by intercity trains with little or no standing room. It suits the staff and management to do this, don't expect it to change to suit the customer.0 -
There is no bus serving the National Rehab Hospital in Dublin. OK there are buses on Kill Avenue and around Sallynoggin.
The 7b is a couple of times a day early morning and evening that stops outside.
Ah I know it's a short walk from Bakers Corner up to the hospital on the 46A that's ok if it ain't lashing or freezing cold! The other alternative is 45a that serves the DART only in DL.
Anyway just a teeny rant. I was visiting someone out there recently and could only get the bus as I bus to work. Too long to go home and drive again!
BUT, put in National Rehab Hospital in DB website and 7b is not mentioned AT ALL!
Right, need to settle down here!0 -
I'm hoping that the upcoming announcement about BRT is good news.
I'd be happy enough to see the Blanchardstown ucd routes replace the 39A.0 -
I'm hoping that the upcoming announcement about BRT is good news.
I'd be happy enough to see the Blanchardstown ucd routes replace the 39A.
I personally we should upgrade all QBC routes to BRT operations. I also think now with what is being said about diesel emissions we should be making these proposed BRT routes into electric trolleybus operations.0 -
Spanish Eyes wrote: »There is no bus serving the National Rehab Hospital in Dublin. OK there are buses on Kill Avenue and around Sallynoggin.
The 7b is a couple of times a day early morning and evening that stops outside.
Ah I know it's a short walk from Bakers Corner up to the hospital on the 46A that's ok if it ain't lashing or freezing cold! The other alternative is 45a that serves the DART only in DL.
Anyway just a teeny rant. I was visiting someone out there recently and could only get the bus as I bus to work. Too long to go home and drive again!
BUT, put in National Rehab Hospital in DB website and 7b is not mentioned AT ALL!
Right, need to settle down here!
The 63 was recently changed to pass the back of this hospital to replace the 59 on Pottery Road.
The 7d also goes outside the front of the hospital from Dalkey into town.
I'm not too certain as to putting a Dublin Bus service inside the grounds of the hospital as I do struggle to get a bigger picture of the general site.
Do you want the bus stop on the main road outside the hospital moved inside the grounds. Would you like the new route to start there or not?
Have you thought of another terminus for the route if it started at the hospital?0 -
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What they should do with the 44 is run it to Dundrum Luas every half hour or perhaps even more frequent then passengers could continue their onward journey on a Luas to Broombridge.
I'm not familiar with the route, but the first thing that comes to mind when I see a suggestion like that, is there anywhere the 44 goes after Dundrum that is not near the Luas? You could end up cutting off people who use it, but don't have the alternative available you are suggesting.0 -
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Yet,nowhere in Larkhill is more than 5 minutes walk from a "Distributor Road",either the Swords Road Corridor or Collins Avenue itself.
Yes it is ridiculous.
The houses along the Western side of Swords Road are very well serviced. Not only are they all within 5 minutes walk of either Swords Road, Ballymun Road. but they also all get their own dedicated bus service in terms of the 11 *, 13 *, 44, 1.
Meanwhile the area on the East side of Swords Road, Griffith Avenue and the length of Grace Park Road are largely about 10 minutes walk from Swords Road and have zero bus service serving them!
Not until you get up to Collins Avenue and the insane meanderings of the 16 through Beaumont does the East side start to get a decent service.
* The 11 and 13 of course necessary and sensible diversions to get to the Ballymun Road. But that begs the question, why not a similar service to go up Swords Road, turn right onto Griffith Avenue and then left onto and up Malahide Road?
The gas thing is there is a fully maintained bus stop, with new ads every week on Griffith Avenue, that doesn't have a single bus stop at it!
Non of it makes sense. They really need to clean up some of these routes.0 -
Are there any of those type of feeder routes that have ever worked? The 56 did not, the proposed 68/69 to Red Cow under Network Direct was thankfully shouted down (69 certainly should never have thought to be a feeder).
Well, in terms of what I'm proposing and taking the 56 as an example, it should have run from the Square to the Long Mile Road to allow links to the LUAS at Kingswood and the 151 on the Long Mile Road and then back again. Running all the way in as far as Dolphin's barn gave it a non local scope, diminishing its effectiveness as a 'feeder' route. Infact, if you were committing to this properly, you'd have a small bus service running from the Square to Kingswood LUAS and back again, and look at delivering another small bus service going from the Square to Ballymount Industrial Estate and back (and other small services feeding in there as necessary).
Or alternatively, if you were totally going back to the drawing board, you'd have an interchange at the Square with a high frequency express service heading into town from there on as direct a route as possible and look at small feeder services to the bus / LUAS interchange at the Square. Then you'd look at utilizing the ring road for 76 type services as required.
If none of those types of routes have succeeded up till now, it's because they've been badly implemented as standalone initiatives.0 -
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I'm hoping that the upcoming announcement about BRT is good news.
I'd be happy enough to see the Blanchardstown ucd routes replace the 39A.
I know the detail wasn't covered in the (now defunct??) BRT plan but I'd really like to see how it is proposed to implement the BRT between the maple centre and the quays. Seems an impossible bottleneck really.0 -
cgcsb wrote:I know the detail wasn't covered in the (now defunct??) BRT plan but I'd really like to see how it is proposed to implement the BRT between the maple centre and the quays. Seems an impossible bottleneck really.
I'd love to know that myself, I hope either the old Cabra road or blackhorse avenue becomes bus only0 -
But that begs the question, why not a similar service to go up Swords Road, turn right onto Griffith Avenue and then left onto and up Malahide Road?
I don't know for sure, but that may be due to a 3.5 tonne vehicle weight limit at that right turn to Griffith Avenue. The traffic island there seems to deliberately jut out to make it difficult for any large vehicle contemplating taking the risk.0 -
LuckyLloyd wrote: »...... Infact, if you were committing to this properly, you'd have a small bus service running from the Square to Kingswood LUAS and back again, and look at delivering another small bus service going from the Square to Ballymount Industrial Estate and back (and other small services feeding in there as necessary).
Or alternatively, if you were totally going back to the drawing board, you'd have an interchange at the Square with a high frequency express service heading into town from there on as direct a route as possible and look at small feeder services to the bus / LUAS interchange at the Square. Then you'd look at utilizing the ring road for 76 type services as required.
If none of those types of routes have succeeded up till now, it's because they've been badly implemented as standalone initiatives.
The Square,in it's heyday,was as clsoe as we could manage to an "Interchange"....20 years on,and we have a rather forlorn setup,none of which makes the Public Transport option remotely attractive...(Including LUAS).
Today,The Square,and to a lesser extent CityWest,sit bubbling away as an ideal location for a Bus Feeder service to Blessington,Ballymore,Dunlavin,Hollywood and environs,but instead the N81 is allowed to develop even further into a passable impersonation of the M50.
Perhaps the erstwhile Jarret Walker,will see the potential in having a Transit Interchange and a busy Town Centre Mall each serving to increase the potential of the other.....not much point in expecting the natives to have much truck with that sorta thing.... :rolleyes:Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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I think there will be a lot of potential winners & losers in this new network redesign from Dublin Bus & the NTA. It is going to become quite a complex job and a hard sell to get it absolutely right from day 1 of operation for commuters & other passengers alike within a deadline of 12 months.
If they are serious about making changes to routes that are inherited from Dublin's old tram network; they may have to make huge decisions on what routes would need to be scrapped or to need to be retained. The route numbering system for Dublin Bus is one area that could get addressed in what way it is going to be next year if more or less route numbers have to be used on them.
There are 99 day routes in Dublin Bus with 13 Xpresso routes & 18 Nitelink routes. That's a total of 130 routes alone. Would the NTA & Dublin Bus have the authority to decide to reduce the number of routes available or increase them. Or will the public have the chance to do that or would they agree on a compromise.
I would like to ask about the legal status of marked in drivers working on all of these routes. Let's say after lots of negotiation with these companies & the public that a route does get eventually scrapped from the network. Would happens to the affected drivers working on them. Is their a guarantee that they will get a new route or would their job be under threat from future changes to the network.
What's the situation regarding bus tendering for some Dublin Bus routes going out to private operators.
Will that process be scrapped soon or will it still go ahead as planned? What will happen if Dublin Bus get awarded the tendered routes back?0 -
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Routes not run by a local or regional authority's own operator have to be tendered That's EU law.0
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I am glad this thread was put up, because otherwise I would know almost nothing about it.
I cannot see any reference to it on the NTA website.
When (if at all) will the NTA be inviting public input?0 -
Any sensible review should recommend two new depots near the M50, one in the east and one in the south.
This would allow for the provision of orbital routes much more easily, and more interaction with the Luas.
It could also be self-financing, given the value of some of DB's city centre land holdings now.0 -
That'd be impossible, you'd need to maintain access to houses.
Simple solution: Bus and access only!
Enforced by electronic bollards at at least railway bridge. If needed, also have bollards at / near both ends with local access to houses via Cabra Drive for east of the railway and Glenbeigh Road for west of the railway.0 -
Boulevardier wrote: »I am glad this thread was put up, because otherwise I would know almost nothing about it.
I cannot see any reference to it on the NTA website.
When (if at all) will the NTA be inviting public input?
Later this month or maybe next month.0 -
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