Irish Naturalisation : processing time and final stage

Serenity Now! · 28-04-2009 7:10pm

walrusgumble wrote: »

I never said the minister himself sits down and goes through all the applications. if you actually read my last couple of posts referring to transferring civil servants over to the department and in particular INIS. But sure, you wouldn't want little details get in the way would we

Hmmm..."it is the minister and only the minister (for justice) who decides who is to be granted citizenship"

Hardly the same as having last say if need be :rolleyes:
If you fulfil the relevant criteria, you have a right to go for citizenship. It really is that simple, y'know.

SWL · 29-04-2009 10:43am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Hmmm..."it is the minister and only the minister (for justice) who decides who is to be granted citizenship"

Hardly the same as having last say if need be :rolleyes:
If you fulfil the relevant criteria, you have a right to go for citizenship. It really is that simple, y'know.

You have a right to go for citizenship - you dont have a right ot have it granted

maninasia · 29-04-2009 12:02pm

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Regardless of your view of a country, if you fulfill the criteria to qualify for citizenship it is your RIGHT to claim it.

+1We don't need to know the views of applicants for citizenship, unless you want to live in a facist state. We just need to know do they qualify or not according to their criteria.I'm an Irishman resident in another country, married to a foreign citizen and it saddens me to see the way applications for citizenship are being delayed, perhaps deliberately. If the government had only put in a proper system like Canada, Australia etc. it could have avoided this type of mess years ago and would have no excuse for the sorry state of current imigration policy and almost every other policy they have instigated since 2002 or so.

SWL · 29-04-2009 12:28pm

maninasia wrote: »

+1We don't need to know the views of applicants for citizenship, unless you want to live in a facist state. We just need to know do they qualify or not according to their criteria.I'm an Irishman resident in another country, married to a foreign citizen and it saddens me to see the way applications for citizenship are being delayed, perhaps deliberately. If the government had only put in a proper system like Canada, Australia etc. it could have avoided this type of mess years ago and would have no excuse for the sorry state of current imigration policy and almost every other policy they have instigated since 2002 or so.

When anybody like myself debates with the multicultural brigade that a green card system should be in place they are branded racists.
So no wonder no politician wants to touch that one

Basising your opinion on the GNIB that they are purposely delaying the applicant for individuals is a very serious statement, and a basis one, particularity when you are hearing the side of the applicant – but then no point in letting little details like facts and checks being carried out to get in the way

walrusgumble · 29-04-2009 1:58pm

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Hmmm..."it is the minister and only the minister (for justice) who decides who is to be granted citizenship"

Hardly the same as having last say if need be :rolleyes:
If you fulfil the relevant criteria, you have a right to go for citizenship. It really is that simple, y'know.

the civil servants you actually physically do the research are acting as the Minister's officals, agents if you will. they have the power to look at the applications on his behalf, then report to their supervisors who in turn go to the secretary who in turn bring matter to the minister himself, , pretty much how the departments run. but sure, i suppose with your attitude, this should all be stated in section 2 dealing with definitions then?

but you are correct on last bit " you hav a right to go for citizenship". but that is all! you also, again i am repeating myself here, a right to have a speedy and fair decision. but you dont have an absolute right that the minister must give you citizenship. However, lets get real here, the reality is, where one complies with all requirements - thus giving little reason of refusal, then that person will get citizenship, and fair play to them

its just, from the tone of a few people here, it appears they are under an assumption that they have a god given right to citizenship. when people say is a privilege etc (in fairness, i find that as an arrogant response from politicans when dealing with the complaints of lengthy delays - why? people are complaining about a argue complaint - they are being unfairly delayed) they mean that the minister might refuse somone. what you are saying is yes, you know that but in reality those who met critieria will / should get it.

Margo · 30-04-2009 10:46am

Novanta wrote: »

- for a more practical understanding of the processing time, its variability depending on specific cases, and evolution in time, could those who have recently got news and instructions to complete the final stage of the process let us know when they had applied, and when they reached the final stage ?

Check out http://www.editgrid.com/user/scrudu/citizenship_apps . It currently has details of 86 people who have applied for Irish citizenship, some of whom have been granted already. Feel free to add your details to the tracker.

Sovtek: This is the court case you are looking for:

http://www.courts.ie/80256F2B00356A6B/0/BEE3352AFBAF56E18025739900319AE2?Open&Highlight=0,Mandamus,~language_en~
K M AND D G - v- THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND LAW REFORM, IRELAND AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
Date of Delivery: 17/07/2007

The non-EU citizen (male, country not mentioned) entered Ireland on foot of a Student Visa valid until Sept 2005. This was then extended until end of June 2006. He did not leave the country, but then married his Irish wife in July 2006. In Sept 2006 he applied to the DoJ for permission to remain in the state on the basis of his marriage to an Irish citizen. This letter was acknowledged by letter in Oct 2006 which stated that it would take 12-14 months to process the application, and that he had no rights to work during this time.

The non-EU citizen and his solicitor sent a number of letters to the DoJ requesting that the case be expedited as it was causing undue hardship as the applicant was not permitted to work. The DoJ wrote in Jan 2007 saying that applications were taking 11 months to be processed. On the 26th of March 2007 the applicant was successful in applying to the High Court for the following:

"an order of mandamus, ordering the DoJ to determine the applicants permission to remain in the State within 21 days",
"an interim injuction ordering the DoJ to determine the applicants permission to remain in the State within 21 days",
" a declaration that the applicants are entitled to have the DoJ determine the applicants permission to remain in the State promptly, but within at least 6 months of date of application"
"damages for breach of constitutional rights and/or breach of EU Convention of Human Rights and Fundamental freedom"
"Costs of the application"

The High Court further stated that Quote:

"A person in the position of the first named applicant (non-EU male) who is married to an non Irish citizen of a European Union Member State is entitled under European Law to have an application for permission to remain in the State determined by the first named respondent (DoJ) within six months. The failure by the first named respondent (DoJ) to determine applications in respect of Irish citizens as quickly as those in respect of non Irish citizens of EU member states is irrational, disproportionate and ultra vires. Because the first named applicant is not entitled to work until a positive decision is made on his application the second named applicant is obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of her duties in the home. That state of affairs is in contravention of Article 41 of the Constitution of Ireland and of Articles 8 and 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, so say the applicants. "

I couldn't find a link to the Court Decision from March, but the link above to the case which was decided upon by Judge Edwards in July, seems to accept that a period of 11 months to decide upon the applicants right to reside, finalising by saying Quote:

"As I have not found that the first named respondent has been guilty of unreasonable and unconscionable delay to date, and as a decision is imminent and is likely to be given within the bounds of what is reasonable, it is not necessary for me to consider the separation of powers issue or indeed the question as to whether or not mandamus would have been an appropriate remedy in this case. For the reasons outlined I will dismiss the application. I will hear arguments with respect to costs. "

Margo · 30-04-2009 1:33pm

SWL wrote: »

Citizenship you will find is highly though of by the Irish population, and rightly so, checks should be carried out until the State (the individuals elected by the Irish citizens to administer policy in Ireland interest) are satisfied, your posts are full of the victim mentality, I think you are more interested in getting the passport rather than interest in integration or love of Ireland or respect for the Irish population.

The process might take time due to checks, and I as a citizen have no problem with that, Irish passports should not be handed out like confetti. It is a privilege and not a right. While you don't agree with Mr Lenihan clearly based on a basis view he is an elected official to the Dail with responsibility to look and the wider implications of citizenship and that is what he is doing.

SWL, I don't think anyone denies that an application for citizenship is a serious thing, and should be handled with appropriate vigilence by the Authorities. Nor have I seen anyone else here deny that the Dept of Justice should do proper checks before granting Citizenship. The issue that most posters here are pointing out (and that I agree with), is that it takes an inordinate amount of time for the Dept of Justice to carry out these checks, and the time taken does not seem commensurate with the checks undertaken:

The checks that the DoJ undertake include the following:

Checks regarding length and periods of residency. These details are sent in as evidence by the applicant in their Passports. The DoJ also have computer records of all Visas granted and periods of stays
Financial checks. Applicant has to send in EOY Financial Records (P60, P45, P21 etc.) for each year. This information is also available from the Dept of Social Welfare. If you request this information individually it takes less than a week to have it supplied to you. No idea how long this is taking the DoJ.
Character (Security) Checks: This involves checking with the Garda Siochana that the person has not been involved in any crime during their period of residency. This takes 1-2 weeks if one applies individually, but it is taking the DoJ 3-8 months

Even given that Public Sector departments are notoriosly slow, it should not take 2-4 years for the Dept of Justice to carry out these checks. All of this information is held on computer systems and one would hope that they are somehow linked (e.g. that if the Gardai know that an immigrant has committed a crime, that they can check with the DoJ how this person entered the country and Visa details) or at least that officials from each sector can contact the other dept to get information in an acceptable amount of time.

I am very concerned about the delays in processing of Citizenship applications, as unnecessary delays and an unclear and confusing system can only lead to a frustrating and insecure experience for the new citizen. If someone has already fulfilled the requirements for citizenship (i.e. required period of residency, sufficient financial means, no criminal history etc.), then there is no reason to treat them with such disregard. I am firmly of the opinion after reading and speaking to hundreds of applicants, that the DoJ is sitting on the applicatons for a lengthy period of time (usually 2 years), and then finally opening the applicaton to begin processing it and doing the necessary checks. This period usually takes somewhere between 1-2 years. Completely random, and completely at odds with what the previous Minister (Lenihan) and current Minister say "applications are processed in a strict chronological order". This is very clear to see when you look at http://www.editgrid.com/user/scrudu/citizenship_apps

The Corinthian · 30-04-2009 2:11pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Does naturalisation give an EU citizen more rights in Ireland than they already have. It seems like a lot of hassle for little gain.

You can get voting cards you never bother using and bitch about how you never voted for Fianna Fail and the government we have is someone else's fault...

TBH, my father is a retired civil servant who worked in Ireland for thirty odd years, and I recently asked him why he never applied for Irish citizenship.

He scoffed; "me ne frega".

maninasia · 30-04-2009 5:22pm

SWL wrote: »

When anybody like myself debates with the multicultural brigade that a green card system should be in place they are branded racists.
So no wonder no politician wants to touch that one

Basising your opinion on the GNIB that they are purposely delaying the applicant for individuals is a very serious statement, and a basis one, particularity when you are hearing the side of the applicant – but then no point in letting little details like facts and checks being carried out to get in the way

I'll not pretend to be an expert but it does look like a deliberate delay...the checks required would not even take 6 months let alone 2 years...I need to see the average processing time to make a firm conclusion.

ionix5891 · 30-04-2009 5:37pm

maninasia wrote: »

I'll not pretend to be an expert but it does look like a deliberate delay...the checks required would not even take 6 months let alone 2 years...I need to see the average processing time to make a firm conclusion.

the average processing time for naturalization is over 3 years now

heres an interesting stories from people i worked with about their experiences with Irish naturalization

one came in '94 applied in early naughties and got it in under 2 years

another came in '96, applied in '06 (thats 10 years in the state continuously living and working and paying taxes from about the time when people were still leaving the state), still waiting last i checked this person has excellent English with native accent, goes out on town like us irish, pays taxes, is of good character and is educated up to masters level . how can it take over 3 years to make a decision on that case and run background checks?

one has to wonder as in the uk the process is a couple of months ....

.

maninasia · 01-05-2009 5:09am

That's a pity, 3 years is just WAY too long. I know they process them at different speeds according to if you are married to an Irish spouse, non-EU and EU citizen. It states this on the CitizensInformation website. Beyond that it's like a black hole as to what process the Ministry follows. BTW, why does the Ministry of Justice still decide immigration policy, I though that an Immigration Dept. was going to be set-up?

maninasia · 01-05-2009 5:12am

double post

portomar · 01-05-2009 5:41am

Three years i way too long...what's the law regarding migrant workers (non-eu) sponsored in ireland, being allowed to remain in a ''resident'' sort of way? sorry, im living in australia at the moment and am using their terminology i know! I knew two people i worked in a pub with in dublin, one from ukraine one from South Africa, who had to apply for their visa every year even though they had been there, law abiding, tax paying for about 8 years. it just seems disgraceful to me that these people should be treated like this after acting as responsible society members for so long. my opinion, residency after two years law abiding and in employment. that really wouldn't be a whole heap of people given most of our immigrants are EU and not subject to same laws anyway. met so many bangladeshis in dublin just hanging on for their irish passport, felt bad for them that our f**k wit political establishment doesn't appreciate how much they love ireland and want to contibute. the system seems needlessly arbitrary and confrontational to me

/topic a bit i know

Abed · 02-05-2009 2:13am

maninasia wrote: »

That's a pity, 3 years is just WAY too long. I know they process them at different speeds according to if you are married to an Irish spouse, non-EU and EU citizen. It states this on the CitizensInformation website. Beyond that it's like a black hole as to what process the Ministry follows. BTW, why does the Ministry of Justice still decide immigration policy, I though that an Immigration Dept. was going to be set-up?

I really don't think it makes any difference if you are married to an Irish citizen regarding speeding up your application. (I'm married to an Irish citizen myself and have been waiting long enough). the only category with quicker procedures is refugees of which I know two people who had their applications processed in 8 months only. both of them were granted citizenship, non of them has ever worked!

walrusgumble · 02-05-2009 11:56pm

maninasia wrote: »

That's a pity, 3 years is just WAY too long. I know they process them at different speeds according to if you are married to an Irish spouse, non-EU and EU citizen. It states this on the CitizensInformation website. Beyond that it's like a black hole as to what process the Ministry follows. BTW, why does the Ministry of Justice still decide immigration policy, I though that an Immigration Dept. was going to be set-up?

that was lip service talk. cant see it happening to be honest. sure it will probably take another year, considering lisbon and the economy is to be dealt with, before the immigration bill of 2008 comes into power. (of course there is now a section in the department inis)

ionix5891 · 03-05-2009 12:13am

walrusgumble wrote: »

that was lip service talk. cant see it happening to be honest. sure it will probably take another year, considering lisbon and the economy is to be dealt with, before the immigration bill of 2008 comes into power. (of course there is now a section in the department inis)

they are one of the few departments in government to turn a profit due to all the processing fees, i cant find the figures now but its a significant amount and can probably cover paying extra part time clerical staff (god forbid they hire more full time public sector workers with a job for life! pensions and all that)

walrusgumble · 03-05-2009 12:09pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

they are one of the few departments in government to turn a profit due to all the processing fees, i cant find the figures now but its a significant amount and can probably cover paying extra part time clerical staff (god forbid they hire more full time public sector workers with a job for life! pensions and all that)

shhhooooo you will begin to start talking sense

sure once the application comes through, i think the applicant then has to pay circa €700 + before being sworn in, for the priviledge of citizenship.

but ye, its a bit of a money racket alright, ya would not want to be losing your green card whilst on the lash etc €100 a pop

SWL · 05-05-2009 3:34pm

Abed wrote: »

I know two people who had their applications processed in 8 months only. both of them were granted citizenship, non of them has ever worked!

Great just what the Country needs in exchange for Citizenship more waster on the take, more reason why stringent tests/interviews should be carried out before the value of an Irish Passport is granted.

Mort5000 · 05-05-2009 4:09pm

SWL wrote: »

Great just what the Country needs in exchange for Citizenship more waster on the take, more reason why stringent tests/interviews should be carried out before the value of an Irish Passport is granted.

I'd have to say, being a person that has successfully naturalised, I think that the state should put some tests in place.

At the final stage of my naturalisation (preparing to appear in court), I was in a room surrounded by 20 or 30 other applicants.
The representative from the justice department stood at the front of the room giving instructions.
It was alarming how few people could even follow such a basic set of instructions...

The UK version is probably appropriate:
- knowing some history
- life in UK test
etc..

Suff · 06-05-2009 2:32pm

My situation could only be given the nightmare status after giving Ireland 12 years of my life (1995-2008)

I studied in Dublin (Masters in IT, Bachelor in IT and MBA in business management) and worked full time in IT for 4 years (under college intership with the full knowledge of the immigration office)

I applied using Form5, collected it in October 2002 from the DOJ after meeting one of their officials. There were no notifications, no information either on their website nor on any documentation they provided of the impending changes of the naturalization law. (this information is confirmed by the DOJ by a request made under the Freedom of information act)

At that time (October 2002) I had 7 years residency and paid tax for 4 years, which was more than they required. By the time my application was received by their offices which was AFTER Novermber 2002 (11 days late) I was told in 2005 that I am not eligible since the law had changed, applicants who had years under student visas will not be counted, I had 7 years.

I fought them from 2005 until 2007, after having a high court case in may 2007, the Judge stated that the Minister would not have to notify the changes to the public!!! I lost. I am stuck in a gray area as I was told by the judge.

I tried contacting the Minister directly to look into my cas, but since they had been changing all the time (McDowell,Lenihan to Ahern). none seemed to care.

I was forced to leave everything in Dublin in jan 2008 (my life, all my belongings and even my Dog!) as my permit had expired and I did not wish to stay illegally.

Now I am trying to find employment in Ireland online, to return and build up my life form the start. I am divestated, upset and angry but this won't help me.

Is this fair? NO but what can I do!!!!

ionix5891 · 06-05-2009 2:47pm

Suff wrote: »

My situation could only be given the nightmare status after giving Ireland 12 years of my life (1995-2008)

I studied in Dublin (Masters in IT, Bachelor in IT and MBA in business management) and worked full time in IT for 4 years (under college intership with the full knowledge of the immigration office)

I applied using Form5, collected it in October 2002 from the DOJ after meeting one of their officials. There were no notifications, no information either on their website nor on any documentation they provided of the impending changes of the naturalization law. (this information is confirmed by the DOJ by a request made under the Freedom of information act)

At that time (October 2002) I had 7 years residency and paid tax for 4 years, which was more than they required. By the time my application was received by their offices which was AFTER Novermber 2002 (11 days late) I was told in 2005 that I am not eligible since the law had changed, applicants who had years under student visas will not be counted, I had 7 years.

I fought them from 2005 until 2007, after having a high court case in may 2007, the Judge stated that the Minister would not have to notify the changes to the public!!! I lost. I am stuck in a gray area as I was told by the judge.

I tried contacting the Minister directly to look into my cas, but since they had been changing all the time (McDowell,Lenihan to Ahern). none seemed to care.

I was forced to leave everything in Dublin in jan 2008 (my life, all my belongings and even my Dog!) as my permit had expired and I did not wish to stay illegally.

Now I am trying to find employment in Ireland online, to return and build up my life form the start. I am divestated, upset and angry but this won't help me.

Is this fair? NO but what can I do!!!!

wow i feel really bad after reading that, what a disgrace the DOJ are, please do keep us updated this is just crazy

Abed · 08-05-2009 12:26pm

SWL wrote: »

Great just what the Country needs in exchange for Citizenship more waster on the take, more reason why stringent tests/interviews should be carried out before the value of an Irish Passport is granted.

I absolutely agree! I feel that the whole thing is being undervalued when I hear of such cases.

I speak both English and Irish and know more than most average Irish people about Itish history ...etc my wife is Irish, so is my daughter who goes to a gaelscoil , well paid job and two masters from Ireland. However someone who barely speaks English collecting SW every month is looked at more favourably in terms of processing time.

Absolute madness

Mena · 08-05-2009 12:37pm

walrusgumble wrote: »

shhhooooo you will begin to start talking sense

sure once the application comes through, i think the applicant then has to pay circa €700 + before being sworn in, for the priviledge of citizenship.

€1000.00 a pop actually. Small price to pay for the priviledge of attaining citizenship in ones adopted country, in my view.

While I do agree the processing times are simply taking the piss, it's quite obvious they're sitting on the applications. Nobody can be that incompetent... I must say that I would prefer, and this from someone who's currently undergoing the process, that they were more strict/had some form of test/adopted or copied the UK version.

At present it seems it's simply a paper excersise to attain one's new passport.

qweqwe12 · 11-05-2009 10:54am

Mena wrote: »

€1000.00 a pop actually. Small price to pay for the priviledge of attaining citizenship in ones adopted country, in my view.

While I do agree the processing times are simply taking the piss, it's quite obvious they're sitting on the applications. Nobody can be that incompetent... I must say that I would prefer, and this from someone who's currently undergoing the process, that they were more strict/had some form of test/adopted or copied the UK version.

At present it seems it's simply a paper excersise to attain one's new passport.

Hi Mena,
No one is paying just €1000.00 only to apply for this so called privilege.
On average every applicant IN PROCESS is waiting for almost 8 years and is LEGAL TAX PAYING Residence. You can count how much most of High Skilled Immigrants (which account for majority of immigrants from NON-EEA countries) have contributed to this adopted country = 8x12x1000 and many more in VAT's n what not.
For what, yea limitless amount of immigration visits to Long waits in queues and 3 years + wait for Naturalisation (Keep in mind naturalisation's very first check is Legality i.e. how long legally one has been in Ireland)
As for test/adopted country.... if you meant Irish History fair enough thats a valid thing... If u meant Irish Language... I wont mind... but language seem to have lost in own cause... I work under HSE and not a single word of Gaelic is spoken.. So why to force another paper exercise.
Regards
Ozzie

SWL · 11-05-2009 11:17am

qweqwe12 wrote: »

Hi Mena,
No one is paying just €1000.00 only to apply for this so called privilege.
On average every applicant IN PROCESS is waiting for almost 8 years and is LEGAL TAX PAYING Residence. You can count how much most of High Skilled Immigrants (which account for majority of immigrants from NON-EEA countries) have contributed to this adopted country = 8x12x1000 and many more in VAT's n what not.
For what, yea limitless amount of immigration visits to Long waits in queues and 3 years + wait for Naturalisation (Keep in mind naturalisation's very first check is Legality i.e. how long legally one has been in Ireland)
As for test/adopted country.... if you meant Irish History fair enough thats a valid thing... If u meant Irish Language... I wont mind... but language seem to have lost in own cause... I work under HSE and not a single word of Gaelic is spoken.. So why to force another paper exercise.
Regards
Ozzie

For about the tenth time now it’s isn’t a so called privilege it is a privilege and if you don't value it don’t apply for it. You have the right to apply; the privilege is to have the Minister grant you Citizenship.

Irish people have to pay PRSI, PAYE & VAT, not just foreigners, you have opted to work and live here you’re end of the deal is you pay taxes like everybody else in Irish society including Irish people, reading your post you would think only foreigners pay them, if you don’t like it work somewhere where you will also pay similar taxes.

Also I think a balanced conclusion is to view the opportunities you receive from working in Ireland, rather than the tedious I pay taxes now give me what I want. Nobody forced you here in chains so stop acting like it

Finally refer to Abed post no 73 on English language skills.

ionix5891 · 11-05-2009 11:22am

SWL wrote: »

For about the tenth time now it’s isn’t a so called privilege it is a privilege and if you don't value it don’t apply for it.

Finally refer to Abed post no 73 on English language skills.

minister is that you?

if it is please answer why it takes 3 years here to push few paper around desks while it takes 1 month over in the UK for same procedure

anyone who ever watched Dail debates sees this brought up every so often by TD's only to have the minister of justice give the same waffle over and over

@SWL we are talking about peoples hopes and dreams here, we need every highly educated and tax paying "foreigner" (notices the inverted commas) we can get our hands on, if you don't agree i sure hope you never find yourself in a hospital here needing expert advice

Nodin · 11-05-2009 11:46am

SWL wrote: »

For about (.....)anguage skills.

Wonderful piece of work there - ignoring all the valid points while getting ones own resentful rant in.

He's talking about the inefficiency of the Department in question. He's perfectly entitled to question why its such a convoluted mess, just as much as I am.

qweqwe12 · 11-05-2009 12:12pm

SWL wrote: »

For about the tenth time now it’s isn’t a so called privilege it is a privilege and if you don't value it don’t apply for it. You have the right to apply; the privilege is to have the Minister grant you Citizenship.

Irish people have to pay PRSI, PAYE & VAT, not just foreigners, you have opted to work and live here you’re end of the deal is you pay taxes like everybody else in Irish society including Irish people, reading your post you would think only foreigners pay them, if you don’t like it work somewhere where you will also pay similar taxes.

Also I think a balanced conclusion is to view the opportunities you receive from working in Ireland, rather than the tedious I pay taxes now give me what I want. Nobody forced you here in chains so stop acting like it

Finally refer to Abed post no 73 on English language skills.

:) My bad privilege ...
As for taxes, i didnt say that Foreigners only pay taxes, all i meant was cost of naturalisation is way more than 1000 euros as ppl in queue contribute. All i wanted to share is frustration people in queue for naturalisation face.. and kind of lame words thrown at them. Nothing personal... i love this place and people no doubt abt it..
Regards
Ozzie

SWL · 11-05-2009 12:28pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

minister is that you?

if it is please answer why it takes 3 years here to push few paper around desks while it takes 1 month over in the UK for same procedure

anyone who ever watched Dail debates sees this brought up every so often by TD's only to have the minister of justice give the same waffle over and over

@SWL we are talking about peoples hopes and dreams here, we need every highly educated and tax paying "foreigner" (notices the inverted commas) we can get our hands on, if you don't agree i sure hope you never find yourself in a hospital here needing expert advice

Only a matter of time before the race card was played - if you read the thread you will see that I don't have problem with naturalisation of individuals, however just because people apply, don't mean they should automatically get which is what most are saying. Checks and procedures should be carried out, and the points I have made are being agreed with by naturalised citizens.

SWL · 11-05-2009 12:36pm

Nodin wrote: »

Wonderful piece of work there - ignoring all the valid points while getting ones own resentful rant in.

He's talking about the inefficiency of the Department in question. He's perfectly entitled to question why its such a convoluted mess, just as much as I am.

Try reading the entire thread before jumping in with your usual view.
Read post no 73 (from a naturalised citizen) before getting your own resentful rant in. If you can look beyond your victim mentality.

Nodin · 11-05-2009 12:38pm

SWL wrote: »

Only a matter of time before the race card was played -

I was unaware there was a race referred to as "Foreigner".

SWL wrote: »

don't mean they should automatically get which is what most are saying. -

No, most refer to the amount of time it takes.

SWL · 11-05-2009 12:45pm

Nodin wrote: »

[/color]

I was unaware there was a race referred to as "Foreigner".

No, most refer to the amount of time it takes.

Try reading the context of his post,

I have viewed your attempts on other forms to sideline the thread for your own rants so bye bye.

Nodin · 11-05-2009 12:56pm

SWL wrote: »

Try reading the context of his post,

I did, as I did the many other posters on the thread. They refer to inconsistencies, delays and inneffecieny. A person applying to this country to get in is entitled to an answer in a reasonable period of time.

qweqwe12 · 11-05-2009 3:59pm

SWL wrote: »

Only a matter of time before the race card was played - if you read the thread you will see that I don't have problem with naturalisation of individuals, however just because people apply, don't mean they should automatically get which is what most are saying. Checks and procedures should be carried out, and the points I have made are being agreed with by naturalised citizens.

Hi SWL,
I do agree with your point of checks and balances.. I have no issue with that..
All am saying is lack of transparency in the process and amount of delays..I know am not automatically entitled to citizenship...
I guess you have never faced INIS or immigration department that is why you can talk. Anyways all in all, this thread is about naturalisation so i added my input to it.

Regards
Ozzie

qweqwe12 · 12-05-2009 9:00am

Abed wrote: »

I would like to clarify few points:
Finally, I think the question we all have to answer is what can we do to improve things and not to whinge and moan and show off for the simple fact that we pay tax.

Ok Lets not whinge and moan, lets hear what have you got in mind that will improve these things ? Specially to do with Naturalisation (Title of this thread) .. Any suggestions/things whereby we can highlight, improve or push some/any change in regards to naturalisation?
Regards
Ozzie

The Corinthian · 12-05-2009 9:20am

Abed wrote: »

I find the arrogant comments of some individuals regarding paying tax... etc quite unjustified. SWL rightly mentioned that every person working in Ireland does the same. in exchange for this revenue the state provides services such as the roads they use to go to work, the schools their children go to, and many many other services.

No. Paying tax is not a duty of citizenship but of residency, to begin with.

Additionally, if we accept the Hobbesian contract, then tax payers - be they citizens or not - are perfectly entitled to complain. After all, we pay taxes for those aforementioned services and protections and if what we see is poor value for our money, or is frankly not even delivered, then the government is in breach of its end of that contract.

ionix5891 · 12-05-2009 10:33am

The Corinthian wrote: »

No. Paying tax is not a duty of citizenship but of residency, to begin with.

Additionally, if we accept the Hobbesian contract, then tax payers - be they citizens or not - are perfectly entitled to complain. After all, we pay taxes for those aforementioned services and protections and if what we see is poor value for our money, or is frankly not even delivered, then the government is in breach of its end of that contract.

These people are truly stuck in limbo for 8-10 years (need over 5 to apply and then a long long many years for St. Peter to decide

)

Yes they have to work and pay taxes in that time, you wont get naturalized if you were on the dole in that time period for example, and no they can not vote in elections for most part, so here we have taxation without representation...

TDs and even EU keeps bringing up the disastrous state of our bureaucracy in this area, other EU members get to deal with huge volumes of applications as percentage and in volume, but of course this section of the public sector really does make a name for itself for wrong reasons

qweqwe12 · 12-05-2009 10:42am

ionix5891 wrote: »

These people are truly stuck in limbo for 8-10 years (need over 5 to apply and then a long long many years for St. Peter to decide )

Yes they have to work and pay taxes in that time, you wont get naturalized if you were on the dole in that time period for example, and no they can not vote in elections for most part, so here we have taxation without representation...

TDs and even EU keeps bringing up the disastrous state of our bureaucracy in this area, other EU members get to deal with huge volumes of applications as percentage and in volume, but of course this section of the public sector really does make a name for itself for wrong reasons

Well said both of you. pretty much in context highlighting plight of Legal Immigrants in various queues.
That was what i wanted to highlight in me previous replies but was misunderstood.
Article below highlights it bit more:

http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/press_detail.php?id=91

Either way all we can do for now and wait patiently.
Regards
Ozzie

Abed · 12-05-2009 1:08pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

No. Paying tax is not a duty of citizenship but of residency, to begin with.

Additionally, if we accept the Hobbesian contract, then tax payers - be they citizens or not - are perfectly entitled to complain. After all, we pay taxes for those aforementioned services and protections and if what we see is poor value for our money, or is frankly not even delivered, then the government is in breach of its end of that contract.

You don't make any sense at all by quoting that passage of my post! I have never sugessted that tax is a duty of citizenship and not residency !!!

Having clarified that, paying tax does not give you the right to get everything you wish. I don't think any right minded individual will listen to someone arguing that he/she should be accepted as a Garda by the Garda Commissioner and imposes a time frame on him just because he/she passes the eligibility criteria for applying and pays tax.

The Corinthian · 12-05-2009 4:26pm

Abed wrote: »

You don't make any sense at all by quoting that passage of my post! I have never sugessted that tax is a duty of citizenship and not residency !!!

The passage followed one where you discussed citizenship, so it was a reasonable assumption to make. Nonetheless, it was the lesser of the two points I made.

Having clarified that, paying tax does not give you the right to get everything you wish. I don't think any right minded individual will listen to someone arguing that he/she should be accepted as a Garda by the Garda Commissioner and imposes a time frame on him just because he/she passes the eligibility criteria for applying and pays tax.

Indeed, however you never suggested this; you only cited the "roads they use to go to work, the schools their children go to, and many many other services" and frankly if tax payers don't get value for money for these, then they are perfectly entitled to complain, just as they are entitled to complain about perceived mismanagement of public money, such as the nationalization of NIB.

Indeed, I actually believe that non-citizen taxpayers have a right to complain about such things a lot more than citizens that pay no tax (and no, I don't think that duty on alcohol and tobacco counts as paying tax in this regard).

maninasia · 13-05-2009 4:20pm

Nodin wrote: »

I did, as I did the many other posters on the thread. They refer to inconsistencies, delays and inneffecieny. A person applying to this country to get in is entitled to an answer in a reasonable period of time.

That's the point alright...speed up the process...that's all we are asking for!

sideshowsue · 13-05-2009 4:31pm

278. Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of pending naturalisation applications that were filed in 2006; the number that were filed in 2005; and the number that were filed in previous years. [18802/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): The following is a breakdown of the number of applications for certificates of naturalisation received from 2002 - 2006 and the number pending a decision.

Year....No. of applications received....No. of applications pending
2001...................1,431..................................0
2002...................3,574..................................2
2003...................3,580................................26
2004...................4,074................................87
2005...................4,527...............................470
2006...................7,030............................3,019

Mort5000 · 19-05-2009 2:33pm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0519/immigration.html

Amusing.

Nodin · 19-05-2009 2:36pm

Mort5000 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0519/immigration.html

Amusing.

Brings to mind this....

W[SIZE=-1]HAT[/SIZE] need you, being come to sense,[SIZE=-2] [/SIZE]But fumble in a greasy till[SIZE=-2] [/SIZE]And add the halfpence to the pence[SIZE=-2] [/SIZE]And prayer to shivering prayer, until[SIZE=-2] [/SIZE]You have dried the marrow from the bone;[SIZE=-2] 5[/SIZE]For men were born to pray and save:[SIZE=-2] [/SIZE]Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,[SIZE=-2] [/SIZE]It’s with O’Leary in the grave

http://www.bartleby.com/147/5.html

LawnMower Man · 20-05-2009 11:08pm

Anyone know how long does it take for them to get Garda clearance and social welfare clearance? They say 3-6 months on the phone but my Wife been waiting 8 months (3 Years waiting in Total since she applied & 8 years living here in total) Also do they need some sort of social welfare report?

procure11 · 21-05-2009 3:34pm

Abed wrote: »

I really don't think it makes any difference if you are married to an Irish citizen regarding speeding up your application. (I'm married to an Irish citizen myself and have been waiting long enough). the only category with quicker procedures is refugees of which I know two people who had their applications processed in 8 months only. both of them were granted citizenship, non of them has ever worked!

I love Boards.ie,I'm literarily addicted to it.It never ceases to amaze me how people just make up stories to accentuate their points...but I suppose because it is a faceless medium we are bound to be subjected to a lot of nonsense but that's what makes it fun.

Abed,I can categorically tell you that your statements about two jobless people getting their citizenship processed in 8 months( and was successful) is definitely and absolutely false.

I understand that when it comes to some issues some people have extraordinary convictions and would go to any length to prove their points,but this one went beyond the line.

Mort5000 · 21-05-2009 3:42pm

procure11 wrote: »

... about two jobless people ...

I believe "refugees" is the qualification that caused them to be processed quickly. The joblessness has no bearing on that particular situation.

The rumour certainly does go that the department is swamped due to the number of refugees that it is handling, and that is what is contributing to naturalization delays.

procure11 · 21-05-2009 4:10pm

SWL wrote: »

Only a matter of time before the race card was played - if you read the thread you will see that I don't have problem with naturalisation of individuals, however just because people apply, don't mean they should automatically get which is what most are saying. Checks and procedures should be carried out, and the points I have made are being agreed with by naturalised citizens.

I totally agree with you that it is a priviledge...anyone who thinks otherwise must be quite confused.
Having said that,because we agree it is a priviledge does not mean it should be inefficiently processed and sometimes unjustly.I personally find it very worrying that it takes 30 months to process a citizenship application for whatever reason at all.

When an application is submitted to the INIS,they basically check for 3 things:-

a) The applicants Immigration history ie their timeline in the state and whether they are actually who they claim to be and also to confirm that the applicant has resided in the state for the required minimum duration which is usually 5 years.

b) The applicants employment history ie to confirm that they have been gainfully employed for the duration of their stay ,so they require the applicant to submit their P60's etc.

c) To check their criminal background so as to determine that they have at least been of acceptable behaviour during their stay .

Imho,I dont see why it should take almost 3 years to effectively check the above.If we analyse this in terms of best practise,Ireland performs the worst in the OECD.In the UK it takes just 6 months,while in Canada it is sometimes as low as 3 months and so on and so forth.

For people who suggest that Ireland has enough citizens already so there would be no need naturalising any persons further..my responce would be simply ,while I understand where they are coming from but that is absolutely abysmal and outlandish...we live in the real world here ..you cannot eat your cake and have it and what is good for the goose is surely good for the gander,you cannot expect to be treated fairly as a foreigner in another country but decide not extend the same to immigrants in your country.

procure11 · 21-05-2009 4:18pm

Mort5000 wrote: »

I believe "refugees" is the qualification that caused them to be processed quickly. The joblessness has no bearing on that particular situation.

The rumour certainly does go that the department is swamped due to the number of refugees that it is handling, and that is what is contributing to naturalization delays.

The fact that they are refugees does not mean their cases would be expedited in any way.The only concession they get (which I think is unfair) is that they can apply after just 3 years in the state as opposed to other applicants who have to be legally resident for 5 years.

It is also not true that the number of applications from refugees would contribute to the delays in processing applications because if we believe what the INIS website says they are being treated in chronological order so effectively if I apply today and a refugee applies in 2 months time ,I should get a responce before that person but unfortunately ,that is not the case at all.

Mort5000 · 21-05-2009 4:30pm

Rephrase:

There is one department dealing with refugee asylum applications and naturalisation applications.
Due to the number of members of staff dealing with refugees seeking asylum, the number of members of staff dealing with naturalisation applications is lower.

So,
Yes,
All applications for naturalisation are dealt with in chronological order.
And,
All refugee asylum applications are dealt with a higher priority than application for naturalisation.

*breathe*

Irish Naturalisation : processing time and final stage

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