Tubeless road - it actually works

brownian · 10-12-2017 4:26pm #1

I got my first puncture on my Schwalbe Pro One tubeless setup today. Naturally, it was freezing and raining.

I noticed the back wheel felt a bit soft, so I stopped and squeezed it. Sure enough, deffo losing/lost air. Rode on a bit, hoping it'd self-seal, like the theory says.

Five minutes later, had another squeeze. Seems stable. Whip out the pump, lash in some air, so it feels properly hard again (70 PSI? Hard to say in the rain etc., but certainly good to ride).

Four hours later (snow, slush, water, even the odd bit of tarmac), safely home. There is a nasty little cut in the tyre, but no air coming out at all.

While I'm at it - the tubeless do seem to be faster than my usual Conti GP4000sIIs. Certainly hitting a lot of strave PMs without obvious additional effort. The new tubeless wheels are 33mm rims (AL33s), and so a bit more aero, in theory than the 22mm climbing wheels I'd usually use (and also about 350g heavier). I can't see the rims making a big difference (happy to be corrected), so inclined to credit the tubeless.

Anyway, that's just for anyone considering going tubeless - all my experience (maybe 500km) to date is positive.

Eamonnator · 10-12-2017 5:29pm

During the summer, i got a set of Prime carbon wheels, which are tubeless ready. I used them with regular tubes and tyres.
Last month, I decided to go tubeless. I bought a pair of Schwalbe Pro 1s. I put them on(with great difficulty) but I cannot get them to inflate. I've used washing up liquid to try and get them to seal. I tried copious amounts of sealant(60ml per tyre). I used a track pump, CO2 canisters and I even brought them to my local car tyre fitter, who used his compressor type inflator.
Nothing has worked.
Did you have any trouble installing?
And can you give me any advice?

rollingscone · 10-12-2017 7:33pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

During the summer, i got a set of Prime carbon wheels, which are tubeless ready. I used them with regular tubes and tyres.
Last month, I decided to go tubeless. I bought a pair of Schwalbe Pro 1s. I put them on(with great difficulty) but I cannot get them to inflate. I've used washing up liquid to try and get them to seal. I tried copious amounts of sealant(60ml per tyre). I used a track pump, CO2 canisters and I even brought them to my local car tyre fitter, who used his compressor type inflator.
Nothing has worked.
Did you have any trouble installing?
And can you give me any advice?

The GCN tubeless tutorial covers basically everything.

Eamonnator · 10-12-2017 8:10pm

rollingscone wrote: »

The GCN tubeless tutorial covers basically everything.

It doesn't cover Stupid, which until now, I didn't know I was. I've tried all that, still no good. It's cracking me up. I wouldn't mind, but I used tubeless tyre on MTBs for years without any hassle.

columbus_66 · 10-12-2017 8:40pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

During the summer, i got a set of Prime carbon wheels, which are tubeless ready. I used them with regular tubes and tyres.
Last month, I decided to go tubeless. I bought a pair of Schwalbe Pro 1s. I put them on(with great difficulty) but I cannot get them to inflate. I've used washing up liquid to try and get them to seal. I tried copious amounts of sealant(60ml per tyre). I used a track pump, CO2 canisters and I even brought them to my local car tyre fitter, who used his compressor type inflator.
Nothing has worked.
Did you have any trouble installing?
And can you give me any advice?

The compressor should work. If you can squeeze the tyre against the rim with your hands you can get each side of the valve inflated and then move your hands around and it should inflate fully. I had to use the compressor a few times as a last resort but it always worked.

iwillhtfu · 10-12-2017 8:56pm

Are you positive you got tubeless ready rims. Manufacturers often make one of each and it wouldn't be entirely unbelievable to be sent the wrong type. There;s not a huge amount of skill required to seat them. Where is the air escaping from? Are they sealed rims?

Eamonnator · 10-12-2017 9:16pm

These are the wheels

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/prime-rp-38-carbon-clincher-road-wheelset/rp-prod142949

I'm feeling more and more stupid by the minute.

The beads won't move towards the sides of the rims. Air escapes pretty much all around the rim.

Sorry O.P. for derailing your thread.

iwillhtfu · 10-12-2017 9:20pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

These are the wheels

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/prime-rp-38-carbon-clincher-road-wheelset/rp-prod142949

I'm feeling more and more stupid by the minute.

The beads won't move towards the sides of the rims. Air escapes pretty much all around the rim.

Sorry O.P. for derailing your thread.

Tubeless ready alright. Have you tried seating the tyre without sealant then you can remove the valve core and add sealant afterwards?

Perhaps try seating them with a tube first.

Eamonnator · 10-12-2017 9:30pm

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Tubeless ready alright. Have you tried seating the tyre without sealant then you can remove the valve core and add sealant afterwards?

Perhaps try seating them with a tube first.

I tried that. I haven't tried seating them with a tube.
I'll try that tomorrow.

rollingscone · 10-12-2017 11:32pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

It doesn't cover Stupid, which until now, I didn't know I was. I've tried all that, still no good. It's cracking me up. I wouldn't mind, but I used tubeless tyre on MTBs for years without any hassle.

I picked up one of the tubeless pumps cheep-cheep took all of the stress out of it.

Also injecting sealant through the valve.

It's getting the tyre on the bead that's the issue 9 times out of 10. Did you ever hear it popping into place?

Eamonnator · 11-12-2017 12:14am

rollingscone wrote: »

I picked up one of the tubeless pumps cheep-cheep took all of the stress out of it.

Also injecting sealant through the valve.

It's getting the tyre on the bead that's the issue 9 times out of 10. Did you ever hear it popping into place?

No popping.
I've tried injecting the sealant through the valve. Sealant goes in, but doesn't help..

Eamonnator · 11-12-2017 12:18am

Would one of those tubeless pumps give me more pressure than a garage pump?

Alek · 11-12-2017 12:26am

Try some soapy water around the bead, after the tyre is already mounted and before inflating. Gives additional sealing.

secman · 11-12-2017 12:29am

Alek wrote: »

Try some soapy water around the bead, after the tyre is already mounted and before inflating. Gives additional sealing.

Alek... he tried That, see OP original post...seems he's tried everything possible... even a compressor !

Alek · 11-12-2017 12:41am

How about removing the valve core for the first inflation and using CO2, which has most likely the best kick (I'm ready to be corrected here)?

Also, I tend to keep the tyre in the air when seating tubeless, to avoid flattening the tyre on the bottom.

If all this fails, your wheels must be dud. I'll take them from you no problem.

Eamonnator · 11-12-2017 12:47am

I've tried it with the valve core removed and CO2.
I haven't tried with the wheel in the air.

rollingscone · 11-12-2017 12:51am

Eamonnator wrote: »

Would one of those tubeless pumps give me more pressure than a garage pump?

No but it makes it a less stressful experience than blowing through c02.

If it's not popping odds are it's a problem with the tyre or the rim. Can you try another combination?

Maybe try the tube first though...

Eamonnator · 11-12-2017 12:59am

I've been trying with the rear wheel only. I'll give the front wheel a lash tomorrow and take it from there.
On a side note. About four years ago, I tried to make a Zonda wheel tubeless , using a non tubeless Schwalbe tyre. I got it to inflate without any bother. I was afraid to try it out on the road.

TooObvious · 11-12-2017 9:53am

Find somebody with an Airshot and borrow it: - http://www.airshotltd.com/

I've managed to get 3 inch wide tubeless tyres to inflate using it so it should work for your skinnies.

topcat77 · 11-12-2017 10:31am

Had the same problem myself one time. I had to seat it with a tube first, remove the tube carefully leaving one side still seated and should then work a treat.

brownian · 11-12-2017 12:18pm

Jeepers. I got mine fitted on, when I bought tubeless-ready wheels. The Schwalbes are meant to be 'tubeless easy' - now you have me worried!

Mind you, so long as the sealant keeps working its magic....

axer · 11-12-2017 4:00pm

Looking at getting a Giant Contend that comes with tubeless tyres. Would tubeless tyres be as good as the likes of GP 4 Seasons tyres that have a kevlar lining when cycling around Dublin city? I was planning on swapping the tyres straight away but now I'm not so sure.

brownian · 11-12-2017 7:27pm

The theory is that any small punctures (thorns, that sort of thing) will auto-seal quickly enough that you can keep riding, or just stop and give a few strokes of the pump. That worked for me last weekend, but a sample of one event is not strong evidence yet. Bigger holes you plug with an 'anchovy' (a bit of rubber stringy stuff, that you push into the hole with a tiny fork - google it!)

You should get no pinch flats, as there's no tube to pinch. In Dublin, with it's less-than-silky roads, I'd expect this to be a big plus.

If you do get a puncture that the system fails to fix, then you have an issue, as you have to fight the tyre off, fit a tube, fight it back on (they tend to be tight, I hear) and ride it home as a 'normal' tyre. Then look again at a repair.

In your position, I'd ride the tubeless until it gave me trouble, then consider going tubed, or not, depending on how long the tubeless was a positive experience. Which is pretty much what I plan on doing myself.

Alek · 11-12-2017 9:40pm

Just don't forget to take out these thorns that auto sealed previously, before you insert the tube. Been there, done that.... Ã°Å¸Ëœ

andy69 · 11-12-2017 9:55pm

isn't this just basically the sealant that is doing the 'magic' here no? My wife won't change a tyre, no way, not interested, not gonna happen. I put tubes in her tyres with sealant and they've been working grand for years. Simple tyre and tube combo (weighs a ton, but she doesn't care). No messing with trying to seal tubless tyres on rims or any of that faffing around.

what's the advantage of tubeless, is it just the weight saving?

anyway, for the record we use GP4 Season - they're on all her (and my) bikes. I don't use the sealant and could count the punctures on one hand over the last 7yrs or so that I've been using them (10k a year on avg).
Wife got two punctures over that time, but she has a strange aversion to not bothering to go round gunk on the road like I would instinctively do

I'm maybe missing something but can't really see the point other than mabe the weight thing?

ian_rush · 11-12-2017 10:34pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

I've been trying with the rear wheel only. I'll give the front wheel a lash tomorrow and take it from there.
On a side note. About four years ago, I tried to make a Zonda wheel tubeless , using a non tubeless Schwalbe tyre. I got it to inflate without any bother. I was afraid to try it out on the road.

Not sure if it is the case with Prime but with Wiggle's Cosine, "tubeless ready" wheelset it required removing the rim tape that came with the wheel and replacing it this stuff, http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/schwalbe-tubeless-rim-tape-10m-roll/rp-prod160519. My school boy error was initially trying to put the schwalbe tape over the pre-installed rim tape, which had similar symptoms to what you describe.

iwillhtfu · 11-12-2017 11:01pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

These are the wheels

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/prime-rp-38-carbon-clincher-road-wheelset/rp-prod142949

ian_rush wrote: »

Not sure if it is the case with Prime but with Wiggle's Cosine, "tubeless ready" wheelset it required removing the rim tape that came with the wheel and replacing it this stuff, http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/schwalbe-tubeless-rim-tape-10m-roll/rp-prod160519. My school boy error was initially trying to put the schwalbe tape over the pre-installed rim tape, which had similar symptoms to what you describe.

From the link above

"Tubeless tape (Installed)"

harringtonp · 12-12-2017 12:42am

Eamonnator wrote: »

During the summer, i got a set of Prime carbon wheels, which are tubeless ready. I used them with regular tubes and tyres.
Last month, I decided to go tubeless. I bought a pair of Schwalbe Pro 1s. I put them on(with great difficulty) but I cannot get them to inflate. I've used washing up liquid to try and get them to seal. I tried copious amounts of sealant(60ml per tyre). I used a track pump, CO2 canisters and I even brought them to my local car tyre fitter, who used his compressor type inflator.
Nothing has worked.
Did you have any trouble installing?
And can you give me any advice?

You're not alone. I had similar problems, gave up and went latex with light fast tyres. Blew a tyre and damaged the rim so rather than sending just one wheel back for rebuild, I sent both along with the Schwalbe Pro Ones and got the wheelbuilder to fit them. I've since bought a Lifeline Airblast and will get a chance to use it when adding more sealant next Spring. I've decided that if its not working easily I'll go to somebody and watch and see how they fit them.

aworthycause · 12-12-2017 10:52am

If the tire isn't popping in you have one of two issues. Either the air isn't going in quickly enough to push the tire on all the way round in a single instant, or you have a leak. If it is a leak it's a big one, as the tire would pop on with just a small leak.

An inflator makes the first installation so much easier. It has the required pressure and force to pop the tire on. It's not essential in every installation. Some tire / rim combos will inflate first go with a pump. But that's just luck.

It's possible the leak is caused by the tire being on the ground as you inflate. Hang it off something, door handle another bike's handlebars, so there is no pressure on it. This is only necessary if the bead is not hooked (ie first inflation after installing the tire). The other probable leak is the valve. Is it tightened on all the way?

Also, a word of warning on CO2. The inflators work great, but come back and pump it with a regular air pump over the first few days to replace the CO2. CO2 leaks over time, much quicker than air.

El Vino · 12-12-2017 12:29pm

Also with a CO2 inflator have the valve at the highest point think 12 o clock so the CO2 goes in as far away from the sealant as possible some sealants don't react well to the icy blast from CO2 inflators.

Mostly when I have an issue it is at the valve, might be worth putting some suds around the outside to see if there is a leak there.
Something which a shop mechanic told me which has worked well, after adding sealant but before inflation let the wheel rest horizontally on each side for half an hour, as level as you can make it.
Tyres that refused to inflate before doing this worked well after.

aworthycause · 12-12-2017 12:35pm

Good advice @elVino also, holding the wheel horizontally and spinning helps the sealant get its way around

axer · 12-12-2017 12:43pm

Sounds to me for a commuter cycling on urban roads it would be safer to go clinchers like GP 4 seasons. Sounds like tubeless are relatively ok against punctures but when they go wrong they go horribly wrong whereas if using normal tyres with a tube then worst case scenario a quick tube change resolves issues. Think I will ditch the tubeless and go clincher on my new bike. Thanks for advice.

aworthycause · 12-12-2017 12:51pm

That doesn't really make sense. If you read the first post, they allow you to ride out many punctures. If you get one that's too big for the sealant to work on, stick in a tube and ride it like a clincher.

Relatively ok? Relative to what? Stopping? I have had two punctures in races, both of which I ost no speed and finished the races. The sealant closed it up.

Horribly wrong? It's just putting a tire on a wheel. How horrible can it be?

Eamonnator · 12-12-2017 1:21pm

I don't want to put people off going tubeless because of my experience.
Thanks to everybody, who has given me advice.
Apologies again to O.P. for completely derailing the thread.

I started off again this morning on the wheels.
I put a tube in and inflated the tyre, it was hard to get the tyre on. I took the tube out and reseated the tyre. I put in 60mls of sealant, through the valve, having first removed the core. I rotated the tyre to get the fluid well distributed. I held the wheel off the ground and tried to pump with a track pump. No joy. I tried a CO2 cartridge. No joy. I then sealed around the tyre and rim with duct tape. I tried again. No joy. I then got soapy water and put that around the tyre bead. Still no joy. I also tried rolling the wheel along the ground to seat the tyre.
I think my problem is that the beads of the tyre won't hook onto the rim. But nothing I do helps, there's always a gap between the tyre bead and the side of the rim.
Anyway, I'm running out of CO2 cartridges, patience and ideas. I have now hung the wheels in the garage and hopefully, before Spring, a miracle will occur.

Thanks again to all, who tried to help.

E.

triggermortis · 12-12-2017 4:14pm

I have tubeless on my MTB and never have any problem inflating new tyres. I use a track pump and keep the valve at the 12 o'clock position and press the tyre towards the rim with my hand thats not operating the pump. That forces the tyre to go towards the seating position on the rim. Usually the tyre stats popping (literally - it makes a popping noise) into place and I pump it until its fully inflated. Soapy water helps to seat the tyre and see any leaks.
Once it has been inflated for 5 minutes, I deflate it, remove the valve core and pour in the sealant (I use Stans) refit the core and re-inflate - keeping the tyre upright and the valve at 12 o'clock. Then I give it a good spin to move the sealant all around.
@ Eamonnator - If you're close to NCD, I'm working lates all week and so have every morning free if you want a second pair of hands to try and get them fitted. I've never tried road wheels, but it can't be impossible

brownian · 12-12-2017 4:41pm

Soem great tips on this thread - thank you all!

axer · 12-12-2017 4:49pm

aworthycause wrote: »

That doesn't really make sense. If you read the first post, they allow you to ride out many punctures. If you get one that's too big for the sealant to work on, stick in a tube and ride it like a clincher.

Relatively ok? Relative to what? Stopping? I have had two punctures in races, both of which I ost no speed and finished the races. The sealant closed it up.

Horribly wrong? It's just putting a tire on a wheel. How horrible can it be?

My concern is being stuck trying to get the tyre off and back on the wheel if it is more difficult than a clincher. Don't fancy trying to do that in cold weather or when it is lashing raining. Would there be sealant all over my hands also?
Then if there are any issues with sealant and using co2.
As andy69 asked, what are the advantages for a road bike with tubeless over, say, Gp 4 seasons tyres with a tube?

cyfac · 12-12-2017 6:27pm

axer wrote: »

My concern is being stuck trying to get the tyre off and back on the wheel if it is more difficult than a clincher. Don't fancy trying to do that in cold weather or when it is lashing raining. Would there be sealant all over my hands also?
Then if there are any issues with sealant and using co2.
As andy69 asked, what are the advantages for a road bike with tubeless over, say, Gp 4 seasons tyres with a tube?

Tubeless are simply superior in every way using all year round for the past 3 years on cr*p roads here in cork sealant has never failed to seal when called on i think the problem with the fitting may be with the width of the rim a wider rim gives greater ability to tease on the tyre also you can buy tyre levers specific for tubeless check out the cycle clinic website for videos on fitting etc he is a sound guy i have 3 sets of wheels from him each better than the last

rollingscone · 12-12-2017 9:27pm

axer wrote: »

My concern is being stuck trying to get the tyre off and back on the wheel if it is more difficult than a clincher. Don't fancy trying to do that in cold weather or when it is lashing raining. Would there be sealant all over my hands also?
Then if there are any issues with sealant and using co2.
As andy69 asked, what are the advantages for a road bike with tubeless over, say, Gp 4 seasons tyres with a tube?

You only need C02 to install it not to put in a tube.

The only (rare) problem that could occur is the bead suctioning to the rim like an octopus it's never happened to me on the road and only once at home.

Basically I carry a small aluminium clamp for such an occurrence but I'm sure something could be improvised with a cable tie.

nilhg · 13-12-2017 12:12am

cyfac wrote: »

Tubeless are simply superior in every way using all year round for the past 3 years on cr*p roads here in cork sealant has never failed to seal when called on i think the problem with the fitting may be with the width of the rim a wider rim gives greater ability to tease on the tyre also you can buy tyre levers specific for tubeless check out the cycle clinic website for videos on fitting etc he is a sound guy i have 3 sets of wheels from him each better than the last

The video on the cycle clinic site referenced above would suggest that Eamonnator's problem might be solved by adding some extra rim tape,

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/pages/tech-page

harringtonp · 01-03-2018 12:09am

Reviving this great thread as just fitted a rear Schwalbe Pro tyre to a Velocity A23 rim. Took the tape that came with the wheel off and added two layers of

https://www.mantel.com/uk/schwalbe-tubeless-rim-tape

as was advised to go around twice when pressures are higher.

Bought a Lifeline Airblast from CRC before Xmas (reduced to 43 euro at the time)

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/lifeline-airblast-tubeless-tyre-track-pump/rp-prod155451

and it worked a treat. The pump is very solid and should be great for normal use too. Initially air was coming out slowly and this seemed mostly around the valve so took the tyre off and put a small amount of sealant around the valve area (which was at 12 o clock) and went again with the Airblast. This time pressure seemed to be holding. So took out the valve core, put in the larger part of 60mm of Schwalbe Doc Blue (note to self, in future have the right amount in container and squirt it all in rather than trying to guess when half way through a 60 mm bottle) and reinflated.

Noticed that pressure would hold but then as you'd pump it up more it would leak and the eventually hold the higher pressure as you keep pumping. Spun the wheel vertically and saw that the height varied. Though initially that it wasn't a tru wheel but then realised that the tyre was a lot lower on one side than the other. The lower side was not seated properly even though it was holding pressure. So let the air out and with a tyre lever took the tyre off at the low side before putting it on again. Did this a couple of times in different places and finally managed to get it seated properly all the way around and the height was constant on spinning as expected. Noticed plenty of loud pops this time as I inflated to 100PSI and air seemed to be holding well. Plan on riding it at 75-80 but decided to go to higher pressure initially to be sure of seating it properly.

Have not ridden it yet and there was a lot of experimentation getting it on but I'm hoping this is a once off learning experience.

I had a go with tubeless on different rims last summer but couldn't manage it. The A23s may be easier but I suspect the real difference was the lifeline Airblast pump. If you don't have this type of pump Eamonator I'd invest in one and try again.

gmacww · 01-03-2018 11:13am

Question. New wheels are tubeless ready and I'm toying with the idea to go tubeless for the commuter. If you get a puncture can you still use the tyre until it wears out fully or is it like a car tyre? As in with emergency sealant on a car tyre it's to get you home. ASAP you replace or get the tyre repaired. Is it the same with tubeless bike tyres? Obviously if it's a big slit then yes but for standard punctures?

brownian · 01-03-2018 11:27am

No, you keep using the tyre. Small holes (the usual kind) self-seal. If you lost some air, pump up and go. Otherwise just go. I got a puncture a few months back, and pumped the tyre back up, and rode on. Haven't looked at it since.

You can fix small to medium holes with an anchovy - a bit of rubber, basically. Big gashes mean the bin, as with any other tyre.

harringtonp · 01-03-2018 3:05pm

Question guys, when you are putting in more sealant do you just take out the valve head and pour it in over the old sealant or do you take the tyre off and try and clean the old sealant off ?

harringtonp · 02-03-2018 11:05am

harringtonp wrote: »

Question guys, when you are putting in more sealant do you just take out the valve head and pour it in over the old sealant or do you take the tyre off and try and clean the old sealant off ?

Somebody must have an opinion or experience of this, not seeing too much online, anyone ?

And if pouring through the valve subsequent times is less needed as gaps etc will already have been plugged ?

iwillhtfu · 02-03-2018 11:52am

harringtonp wrote: »

Somebody must have an opinion or experience of this, not seeing too much online, anyone ?

And if pouring through the valve subsequent times is less needed as gaps etc will already have been plugged ?

I just pour more in. It doesn't really dry out. I spilled some in the attic a few months ago when I was changing tyres and it's still wet to touch.

I still put in the same amount when filling through the valve it's only a tiny bit used to cover the rim when seating anyway. you could probably put in less if you wanted but hardly any weight savings if that's your concern.

columbus_66 · 02-03-2018 12:50pm

If you open the valve isn't all the sealant going to come out? Wouldn't you have to put in new sealant under pressure like from and CO2 canister?

harringtonp · 02-03-2018 1:29pm

columbus_66 wrote: »

If you open the valve isn't all the sealant going to come out? Wouldn't you have to put in new sealant under pressure like from and CO2 canister?

When fitting it I had to open the valve with sealant already in and not much came out. If you open it with the valve at 12 I'd imagine almost nothing comes out

harringtonp · 02-03-2018 1:32pm

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I just pour more in. It doesn't really dry out. I spilled some in the attic a few months ago when I was changing tyres and it's still wet to touch.

I still put in the same amount when filling through the valve it's only a tiny bit used to cover the rim when seating anyway. you could probably put in less if you wanted but hardly any weight savings if that's your concern.

Suppose I'm wondering if you keep putting in 30mls every few months without cleaning. 7x30ml is 210ml is approx 210g and this is extra weight.

But I wonder does the old stuff just eventually vanishes and as you say the extra weight is negligible ?

I ask because once you take the tyre off you have to reseat it and there is always the risk that this just may not happen for you.

columbus_66 · 02-03-2018 1:36pm

at 100psi? if the sealant doesn't come out how would it ever fix a puncture?

harringtonp · 02-03-2018 1:38pm

columbus_66 wrote: »

at 100psi? if the sealant doesn't come out how would it ever fix a puncture?

Because when you get a puncture the wheel is rotating

Tubeless road - it actually works

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