Jessica Yaniv refused service at gynaecologist's office

Brian? · 06-12-2019 10:29am

ingalway wrote: »

Give me strength.
There is no point in me stating yet again that that having men in women's single sex (not gender) spaces and sports is harmful to women and girls, especially girls. There is no point saying that because you and TRAs don't care about that, the ONLY important thing is that men get whatever they want.

You're turning an incredibly complicated trans issue into black and white issue of misogyny. I don't understand why you are so intent in oversimplifying the issue.

I don't think trans women should be allowed compete in women's sports. There are clear scientific reasons why the have an advantage.

Trans women in women's spaces? It's a head breaker.

I didn't mention either of these in my post, so I am not sure why you're addressing them to me though. My point was that it's complicated and far from as simple as you make out.

And you really see no other issue of white people pretending to be black? Blackface would be the social transition version I suppose?
Or non disabled pretending to be disabled other than not getting their fantastic disability allowance?
Why should their legal status not reflect how they 'truly' feel. Who are we to gatekeep their true feelings of race or disability?
Self Identification surely can't only be about what sex you think you have the right to choose to be, it has to encompass all possibilities of how you wish to identify your special self?

You're attempting to make a point by arguing it to the absurd.

I honestly couldn't care less how people self identify. It doesn't mean I believe they should have legal protection to do so.

So I'm fine with people self identifying any way they want, as long is it doesn't harm anyone. Why do you care so much? Apart of arguing to the absurd.

Or is it actually only really about men getting what they want?
The attached copy of a tweet sums it up well.

This is a new argument I've been hearing more of recently. Some feminists believe this is about men attempting to reassert themselves as they lose power. I'm concerned it might be true in Some cases. However that doesn't overrule the rights of trans people, both male to female and female to male.

The person in the OP is a provocateur who is doing more harm than good to the trans cause IMO.

I absolutely don't support everyone's right to be outraged, which seems to be the real core of this argument. Trans people get outraged, transphobic people get counter outrages, people in the middle get outraged by both sets of outrage and the circular discussion starts again.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 10:30am

suicide_circus wrote: »

plenty of m to f transitions seem to happen later in life, when these people have married and had families. where are the f to m people transitioning in their 50s ?

Why do you care?

Brian? · 06-12-2019 10:32am

wellwhynot wrote: »

85% of trans women keep their penis. They are male. They were born a man and will die a man. Why should women be forced to accept a man in a dress into their spaces so as not to upset the mans feelings? Toilets, changing rooms, refuges, safe spaces, sports and prisons.

Trans activists have successfully managed to remove the word/symbol for women out of periods and pregnancy. In some countries it is now pregnant person rather than pregnant woman. It is biologically impossible for a man to ever get pregnant so why are we pondering to this nonsense. They are trying to erase women. If trans women do not feel safe in male spaces why not fight for a third?

I will not refer to Yaniv as she/her for the same reason as I would not agree that an anorexic is fat. It is not true and I would be lying if I said it.

Did you ever look into why 85% of transgender people don't get gender reassignment surgery? Or are you happy to make a snap judgement on it.

06-12-2019 10:40am

Brian? wrote: »

Did you ever look into why 85% of transgender people don't get gender reassignment surgery? Or are you happy to make a snap judgement on it.

Would you comply and refer to anorexic people as fat if they identified as overweight?

Sir Oxman · 06-12-2019 10:42am

Brian? wrote: »

Why do you care?

Brian? wrote: »

Did you ever look into why 85% of transgender people don't get gender reassignment surgery? Or are you happy to make a snap judgement on it.

Make your mind up.
That looks like either everyone should shut up and ask zero questions or everyone should ask questions.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 10:44am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would you comply and refer to anorexic people as fat if they identified as overweight?

Complete false equivalency.

And not even remotely related to the post you quoted. Bizarre.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 10:46am

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Make your mind up.
That looks like either everyone should shut up and ask zero questions or everyone should ask questions.

Those 2 statements don’t contradict each other in the least, you’re being silly. Possibly a silly goose.

One is in response to someone expressing an opinion on transgender people.

One is asking a simple clarifying question. I’m not saying they have no right to ask.

suicide_circus · 06-12-2019 10:48am

Brian? wrote: »

Why do you care?

because i think its an interesting question. The trans issue as a whole is interesting because it's so filled with absurdity and contradiction.

AndrewJRenko · 06-12-2019 10:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you comply and refer to anorexic people as fat if they identified as overweight?

Does that happen much?

Brian? · 06-12-2019 11:04am

suicide_circus wrote: »

because i think its an interesting question. The trans issue as a whole is interesting because it's so filled with absurdity and contradiction.

I’d agree. The strangest one worth studying, imo, is the disparity in numbers between FTM and MTF trans people. It’s a gaping wide question that I can’t really see an answer to. Lately some people have filled that gap with arguments that they’re probably not all really trans.

I sometimes wonder if there’s validity to that. But it’s hard to look into without looking like you’re questioning all trans people.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 11:06am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Does that happen much?

Only when people indulge in reductio ad absurdum

Sir Oxman · 06-12-2019 11:10am

Brian? wrote: »

Those 2 statements don’t contradict each other in the least, you’re being silly. Possibly a silly goose.

One is in response to someone expressing an opinion on transgender people.

One is asking a simple clarifying question. I’m not saying they have no right to ask.

Both are questions.
Sheesh.

06-12-2019 11:10am

Brian? wrote: »

Complete false equivalency.

And not even remotely related to the post you quoted. Bizarre.

I don't think it is at all a false equivalence.

Both a trans person and an anorexic both see their bodies differently than logic or reality dictates.

I just wonder why you would choose to agree with one persons reality and not the other.

It was remotely related to your post as you were quoting a poster who mentioned the same thing.

06-12-2019 11:10am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Does that happen much?

I'd wager there are a lot more anorexics who think they are too fat than there are men who feel that they are women. So yes.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 11:11am

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Both are questions.
Sheesh.

You've gone full silly goose.

AndrewJRenko · 06-12-2019 11:13am

Sir Oxman wrote: »

How can I be sure, the big guy has me on block.
See?

Do you really need someone to explain to you how to see tweets on an account that has blocked you?

Brian? · 06-12-2019 11:13am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't think it is at all a false equivalence.

Both a trans person and an anorexic both see their bodies differently than logic or reality dictates.

I just wonder why you would choose to agree with one persons reality and not the other.

It was remotely related to your post as you were quoting a poster who mentioned the same thing.

I am not going to make an argument myself here. I'm going to defer to the medical professionals on this one. The treatment for gender dysmorphia is to transition to live as a women. The treatment for anorexia is not to starve yourself to death.

Clear?

Sir Oxman · 06-12-2019 11:19am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you really need someone to explain to you how to see tweets on an account that has blocked you?

No.
Why would I go out of my way to see what someone who purposely lives in a bubble has to say?

I bet you whoever he was tweeting at last night is now blocked if they 100% did not agree with him.

Sir Oxman · 06-12-2019 11:20am

Brian? wrote: »

You've gone full silly goose.

Okay. No problem.

AndrewJRenko · 06-12-2019 11:25am

Sir Oxman wrote: »

No.
Why would I go out of my way to see what someone who purposely lives in a bubble has to say?

I bet you whoever he was tweeting at last night is now blocked if they 100% did not agree with him.

You asked the question; "How can I be sure". Why would you ask a question when you don't want the answer?

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd wager there are a lot more anorexics who think they are too fat than there are men who feel that they are women. So yes.

There is a difference between 'think they are too fat' and 'identify as fat'.

wellwhynot · 06-12-2019 11:28am

Brian? wrote: »

I am not going to make an argument myself here. I'm going to defer to the medical professionals on this one. The treatment for gender dysmorphia is to transition to live as a women. The treatment for anorexia is not to starve yourself to death.

Clear?

Anorexia is a body dysmorphia disorder and treated as a mental illness. I don’t know why gender dysmorphia is treated any different. A man with his penis removed is not a woman: He is an infertile man.

06-12-2019 11:29am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There is a difference between 'think they are too fat' and 'identify as fat'.

Really? Not being facetious here, but what is the difference?

osarusan · 06-12-2019 11:30am

Brian? wrote: »

If someone wants to identify as disabled, grand, but they can’t be given disability allowances because they don’t actually have a disability.

If someone wants to identify as black. Grand, go for it. Why does it matter? You’re harming no one and get zero benefits for it. It’s not as if you change you race to black legally.

Interesting comparisons, but I don't think they help your argument actually.

If somebody with white skin but who identifies as black makes a legal claim they were not given a job/not served in a pub/etc, because they are black, what do you think should happen then?

If legally they are told they simply have no case, what that means is that while they can identify as whatever they want privately and personally, it will not be taken seriously legally.

Whereas with Yaniv, and in countries that have laws on self-identification of gender (or whatever the term actually is), these things do need to be taken seriously legally.

I think the 'identify however you like privately, but don't expect much accommodation from the law' is not the argument you are making; actually, it is what you are arguing against.

Sir Oxman · 06-12-2019 11:31am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You asked the question; "How can I be sure". Why would you ask a question when you don't want the answer?

Sarcasm.

I've already made it clear I don't deal with activists of any hue that live in an echo chamber.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 11:32am

wellwhynot wrote: »

Anorexia is a body dysmorphia disorder and as a mental illness. I don’t know why gender dysmorphia is treated any different. A man with his penis removed is not a woman: He is an infertile man.

You don't know why 2 conditions are treated differently? Well, the cause and solution are different. If my car overheats I don't add more petrol, I add coolant.

Legally, a man who undergoes gender reassignment surgery is a woman. That's not a matter of opinion.

AndrewJRenko · 06-12-2019 11:34am

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Sarcasm.

I've already made it clear I don't deal with activists of any hue that live in an echo chamber.

If you like to have a look at his engagement just last night, you will see he's the complete opposite of 'living in an echo chamber'. In fact, by deliberately choosing to not look at what he's up to, you're pretty much doing to the echo chamber thing yourself.

But yeah, I know those things don't apply to you, only to other people, right?

Brian? · 06-12-2019 11:35am

osarusan wrote: »

Interesting comparisons, but I don't think they help your argument actually.

If somebody with white skin but who identifies as black makes a legal claim they were not given a job/not served in a pub/etc, because they are black, what do you think should happen then?

If legally they are told they simply have no case, what that means is that while they can identify as whatever they want privately and personally, it will not be taken seriously legally.

Whereas with Yaniv, and in countries that have laws on self-identification of gender (or whatever the term actually is), these things do need to be taken seriously legally.

I think the 'identify however you like privately, but don't expect much accommodation from the law' is not the argument you are making; actually, it is what you are arguing against.

What's the point of this actually? Trans women have legal protection. People who identify as different races don't. Some day they might, but I'm not worried about it as much as some.

Society changes and moral standards change.

06-12-2019 11:39am

Brian? wrote: »

Society changes and moral standards change.

Not always for the better and when it gets to a stage where refusing to accept that a man who cuts his penis off is a woman can land you in trouble or have you branded as a bigot, it is worth discussing.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 11:41am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not always for the better and when it gets to a stage where refusing to accept that a man who cuts his penis off is a woman can land you in trouble or have you branded as a bigot, it is worth discussing.

Everything is worth discussing, or I wouldn’t be on a discussion forum.

Why do you reduce the problem transgenderism to chopping off genitalia? It’s far too complex an issue to do this imo.

splinter65 · 06-12-2019 11:42am

dark crystal wrote: »

A straight man who likes being a man, but also likes to dress up as a woman, is known as a transvestite.

A gay man who likes being a man, but also likes to dress up as a woman, is known as a drag queen.

People who were born a certain gender, but feel like they identify with the opposite gender more and wish to identify as that opposite gender are transgender.

People who were born a certain gender, but feel like they identify with the opposite gender more and wish to physically become that opposite gender are transsexual.

There's also gender fluid, but I'm honestly not sure what that means. Possibly identifying as a man on manly days and a woman on womanly days....or something.

Is this correct? WTF is Jessica Yanis then?

Jessica yaniv is a man who is a paedophile.

AndrewJRenko · 06-12-2019 11:44am

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? Not being facetious here, but what is the difference?

You know the difference between an innie and an outie bellybutton?

osarusan · 06-12-2019 11:45am

Brian? wrote: »

What's the point of this actually? Trans women have legal protection. People who identify as different races don't. Some day they might, but I'm not worried about it as much as some.

Fair enough, but you were the one who introduced them as examples.

Sir Oxman · 06-12-2019 11:52am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If you like to have a look at his engagement just last night, you will see he's the complete opposite of 'living in an echo chamber'. In fact, by deliberately choosing to not look at what he's up to, you're pretty much doing to the echo chamber thing yourself.

But yeah, I know those things don't apply to you, only to other people, right?

No thanks.
You're asking me to go out of my way to view what an activist says, an activist that has blocked me for no reason (most likely blocklist) - whoever he thinks he is forfeits any interest I may have had in what he argues.

Your last line is water off a ducks back, believe me.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 11:56am

osarusan wrote: »

Fair enough, but you were the one who introduced them as examples.

No I didn’t. I was responding to someone who did.

osarusan · 06-12-2019 11:59am

Brian? wrote: »

No I didn’t. I was responding to someone who did.

Actually yeah, you are correct on that, my mistake.

keano_afc · 06-12-2019 12:03pm

Sir Oxman wrote: »

I clicked that link and the courageous Mr Comerford has somehow blocked me even though I've had zero interaction with him to my knowledge.
I must have made it onto a blocklist that he utilises which really isn't a good look.
Echo Echo Echo

So that's Gemma O'Doherty and Mr Comerford that I know of who have blocked me on Twitter!
Paragons of free thought, speech and debate unite!

Ditto. No idea who that guy is but I'm blocked. Clearly a big fan of debate and alternate opinion.

Calhoun · 06-12-2019 12:47pm

Twitter most definitely is an echo chamber and anyone who uses the mass block functionality is definitely in a bubble.

This guy in particular has all the hallmarks of it, allot of use of TERF, allot of Snipes at people including Graham Lenihen who is also blocked.

We aren't really arguing this though we have an element of dishonest posting and smokescreens to divert away from how bad parts of the trans community is or how out of touch they are with the rest of society.

mcmoustache · 06-12-2019 1:32pm

Brian? wrote: »

It’s far too complex an issue to do this imo.

I have to admit, it's currently the main social issue where I'm nowhere near as certain as I would be with others. With issues like gay rights and female reproductive rights, things were fairly black and white. If we take the issue of gay marriage, it was a simple decision as far as I was concerned - gay people exist and them having marriage rights affects nobody but themselves.

I was initially in a similar position regarding trans rights too and I'm sure I have posts from several years ago floating around advocating for their rights to share facilities with biological women. The thing is, when I was thinking of the rights of trans people, I was thinking of the rights of people who have made the decision to medically transition to the gender that they feel suits them.

And for the record, I do still think that affording those rights to those transitioning or transitioned is still the right thing to do even if it might make those using those traditionally single-sex spaces uneasy.

Self ID is where I start to waver, though. It significantly widens the group that I had in mind when I was thinking of trans rights. Like I said, I thought this was about gender-dysphoric people undergoing or having undergone transition. I was not thinking that this included literally anyone who wanted to declare themselves as a different gender for whatever reason they want - whether honest or, as is the case with Janiv, very nefarious.

I can understand the noble intentions of self Id - trans people really don't have it easy. But there are some serious unintended consequences here that aren't being addressed properly. It's not helped that these threads tend to attract rereg trolls and transphobes but I guess that's just a feature of today's internet.

There are legitimate issues raised by self id that do affect other groups who also tend to get the shítty end of the stick. Women are the obvious one and to keep things simple, I'll stick with that group. In an earlier paragraph, I pointed out where I stood with the rights of those transitioning or transitioned to access traditionally single-sex spaces. While I'm a bit uneasy with advocating that women share their spaces with biological males and can see the irony of me as a guy telling women that as a group, they should give up some of their rights for biological males, I still think that overall, it's the right thing to do.

But then there are the cases on the other end of the spectrum where some people are just taking the piss with it like this case here and more sinister cases where biological males have used self Id as a means to get themselves into women's spaces and have abused them. There needs to be a way to distinguish between people like this and gender-dysphoric people.

Then there are more innocent situations where biological males declare as female despite undergoing no medical intervention or changing their outward appearance besides wearing a dress from time to time - I don't have any issue with people such as this, each to their own and all that, but I can see how granting them access to traditionally female spaces can create problems - an obvious one being perfectly innocent but very outwardly looking males mixing with vulnerable women - I can see how women in a rape-crisis centre could take issue with a bearded burly man in their midst.

So, like I said, this is a really complicated issue and I don't really have solutions here, only some acknowledgement of the problems. I know where I stand when it comes to those transitioning or transitioned and I know where I stand on the likes of Yaniv but there's a massive section in between where it's bloody complicated.

I don't know what the solution is, or at least a workable alternative to self id but I don't think that self id is really the right way here.

This issue is also a lot bigger than the points I made here but I wanted to stick to the more practical questions. There's a huge philosophical discussion to be had here too but that's one that always gets messy so I'm trying to leave it out.

But yeah, tl;dr this subject is bloody complicated. Even if you only look at a small subset of the issues and ignore the wider philosophical side of it, it's still bloody complicated.

splinter65 wrote: »

Jessica yaniv is a man who is a paedophile.

This is another example of what makes this subject tricky. I absolutely agree with this statement but from a legal point of view and depending on jurisdiction, this statement could be viewed as correct or incorrect. I guess it comes down to the social, legal, colloquial, scientific and various other definitions of what a man or a woman is as well as what definition of "is" is but this is the philosophical stuff that I mentioned earlier.

AndrewJRenko · 06-12-2019 1:36pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

But then there are the cases on the other end of the spectrum where some people are just taking the piss with it like this case here and more sinister cases where biological males have used self Id as a means to get themselves into women's spaces and have abused them. There needs to be a way to distinguish between people like this and gender-dysphoric people.

Then there are more innocent situations where biological males declare as female despite undergoing no medical intervention or changing their outward appearance besides wearing a dress from time to time - I don't have any issue with people such as this, each to their own and all that, but I can see how granting them access to traditionally female spaces can create problems - an obvious one being perfectly innocent but very outwardly looking males mixing with vulnerable women - I can see how women in a rape-crisis centre could take issue with a bearded burly man in their midst.

Have many of these problems come up in Ireland in recent years since self ID was legalised?

mcmoustache · 06-12-2019 1:48pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Have many of these problems come up in Ireland in recent years since self ID was legalised?

The only one that I'm aware of is the report by one of the red-top rags about a self-declared male in a women's prison. I don't know how much truth there is to it since it's one of those papers aimed at simple people but whether or not it has happened yet in this country is beside the point. If it's legal for it to happen, then it's only a matter of time before it does. It has already happened in other common-law jurisdictions with larger populations so stuff like that will happen here. The real question is whether it's right that it does.

One eyed Jack · 06-12-2019 1:53pm

ingalway wrote: »

Well I'm glad we agree that no one can ever change their sex and that what we are really talking about here are cross dressers. No problem with a cross dresser but as we agree a woman it does not make so they have no rights to women's spaces, sports etc.

Well we’re agreed that no one can ever change their sex, but I never agreed that what we’re talking about here are cross dressers. The difference being that cross dressing is an activity that some people engage in where they derive comfort or indeed sexual gratification from wearing clothing (including underwear) normally associated with the opposite sex. People who are transgender are convinced they are the opposite sex. We’re agreed that doesn’t make them a woman, but because the law regards them as women if they have a certificate to say so, then anyone attempting to deny them access to women’s spaces and sports could be found guilty of discrimination under equality legislation. It would depend upon the circumstances of each individual case though whether they are, or are not guilty of violating equality legislation. Someone declaring they are a man for instance and claiming that they are being discriminated against because they want to join the Catholic priesthood would be likely to be told jog on. If they had a gender recognition certificate which recognised in law that they are a man, then things become infinitely more complicated.

ingalway wrote: »

If you choose self id in this scenario then you must be prepared for all the crazy scenarios such as black and disabled that are coming and their claims must be no less legitimate than women being told that women can have a penis.

I’m prepared for those scenarios, as prepared as one can be really - I either agree with the individual or I don’t, because it would apply in the same way as gender recognition legislation. It wouldn’t mean I can be compelled to refer to someone as their preferred gender, and if attempts were made to compel me to refer to someone as their preferred gender, or treat them as though I believe they are their preferred gender... well I’d simply tell that person to piss off. The law however doesn’t have the luxury of my individual perspective.

ingalway wrote: »

BTW - thanks for all the great jobs you gave us. Very kind.

I think you’re very well aware of what I meant by that. The point being that nobody needs your permission to exercise their human rights, any more than women need men’s permission to exercise their human rights.

ingalway · 06-12-2019 3:40pm

Thank you for your post mcmoustache I appreciate that you took the time to put it together and have obviously given real and fair thought.I just took this one snippet:

mcmoustache wrote: »

...So, like I said, this is a really complicated issue and I don't really have solutions here, only some acknowledgement of the problems. I know where I stand when it comes to those transitioning or transitioned and I know where I stand on the likes of Yaniv but there's a massive section in between where it's bloody complicated.

I think it has been made complicated, intentionally.
As far as I am concerned the only fair way for women and trans women is if men who claim to be women want access to single sex female spaces then they must have medically transitioned. If they have not, or in many cases have no intention of medically transitioning, I believe the term then is social transition, then they should have no access to women's spaces because they are actually transvestite:

A transvestite is a person who wears clothing, accessories, jewellery or make-up not traditionally or stereotypically associated with their assigned sex.
[Taken from the Transgender Equality Network Ireland website]

Why is it women who must only give way here? If someone believes they are truly a woman then they must make meaningful adjustments. Until they medically transition then they can wear all the lovely frocks and makeup they like but they stay in men changing rooms, prisons etc. Let men also compromise here - get used to seeing your fellow men expressing their gender freely in your changing rooms and toilets.
I already know I will be told it is not safe as the 'real' men might physically attack them - but hey the even more real threat to women of physical and sexual assault of fully intact men in their spaces is OK?
No men who have gone through puberty should ever compete in any female sports. Putting children on puberty blockers should be a crime against children but it's happening so that needs to be looked at separetly - once we have the first bunch of physically and psychologically maimed children out the other end we'll know more.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 4:27pm

ingalway wrote: »

Thank you for your post mcmoustache I appreciate that you took the time to put it together and have obviously given real and fair thought.I just took this one snippet:

I think it has been made complicated, intentionally.
As far as I am concerned the only fair way for women and trans women is if men who claim to be women want access to single sex female spaces then they must have medically transitioned. If they have not, or in many cases have no intention of medically transitioning, I believe the term then is social transition, then they should have no access to women's spaces because they are actually transvestite:

A transvestite is a person who wears clothing, accessories, jewellery or make-up not traditionally or stereotypically associated with their assigned sex.
[Taken from the Transgender Equality Network Ireland website]

Why is it women who must only give way here? If someone believes they are truly a woman then they must make meaningful adjustments. Until they medically transition then they can wear all the lovely frocks and makeup they like but they stay in men changing rooms, prisons etc. Let men also compromise here - get used to seeing your fellow men expressing their gender freely in your changing rooms and toilets.
I already know I will be told it is not safe as the 'real' men might physically attack them - but hey the even more real threat to women of physical and sexual assault of fully intact men in their spaces is OK?
No men who have gone through puberty should ever compete in any female sports. Putting children on puberty blockers should be a crime against children but it's happening so that needs to be looked at separetly - once we have the first bunch of physically and psychologically maimed children out the other end we'll know more.

You know there are Trans men as well?

ingalway · 06-12-2019 5:15pm

Brian? wrote: »

You know there are Trans men as well?

Of course.
But I bet you will never see a naked trans man in a changing room until they have medically transitioned.
Trans men pose no sexual or physical threat to men.
Trans men will never be able to compete against men in any male only sport.
I doubt any trans man would ever seek to gain access to male single sex spaces for predatory reasons.
Basically I never see trans men making demands of men in any way which is the complete opposite of many trans women and their allies.

One eyed Jack · 06-12-2019 5:33pm

ingalway wrote: »

Of course.
But I bet you will never see a naked trans man in a changing room until they have medically transitioned.
Trans men pose no sexual or physical threat to men.
Trans men will never be able to compete against men in any male only sport.
I doubt any trans man would ever seek to gain access to male single sex spaces for predatory reasons.
Basically I never see trans men making demands of men in any way which is the complete opposite of many trans women and their allies.

So what? Genuinely I’m wondering why you think you can’t simply tell that person to piss off. I’ve done it many times and not once did I care whether the person was a man or a woman. I’ve known plenty of women to make demands of men and they too were greeted with the same disregard I have for anyone who makes what I consider to be unreasonable demands.

If organisations or anyone else wants to run their business how they see fit, and they are aiming their products and services at people who are transgender, so what? You’re not compelled to avail of those services or buy those products any more than you couldn’t be compelled to before already.

If someone is a rude, obnoxious fcuk, they’re a rude, obnoxious fcuk regardless of their sex or their gender. I don’t tar either all women or all men with the same brush because I’ve met one or two in my life who happen to be rude, obnoxious fcuks.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 5:49pm

ingalway wrote: »

Of course.
But I bet you will never see a naked trans man in a changing room until they have medically transitioned.
Trans men pose no sexual or physical threat to men.
Trans men will never be able to compete against men in any male only sport.
I doubt any trans man would ever seek to gain access to male single sex spaces for predatory reasons.
Basically I never see trans men making demands of men in any way which is the complete opposite of many trans women and their allies.

Hold up there. You think Trans women are predators who are a physical threat to women? That’s your line of objection?

One eyed Jack · 06-12-2019 6:11pm

Brian? wrote: »

Hold up there. You think Trans women are predators who are a physical threat to women? That’s your line of objection?

I would hope there’s more to their objections than that seeing as one doesn’t have to identify themselves as the opposite sex in order to abuse another person or persons. We have laws and a judicial system to punish people who are of a mind to commit abuse already without the need to introduce laws specifically to punish people who commit abuse on the basis of either their sex or gender.

Self-ID laws are not an opportunity for people who are of a mind to abuse other people. People who are of that particular mindset don’t care what the law says one way or the other as they generally try to avoid being caught and held responsible for their actions.

uck51js9zml2yt · 06-12-2019 7:29pm

I identify as an orange and want to be squeezed...:)
But honestly, this guy needs to be locked up for the good of society.

Dante7 · 06-12-2019 7:35pm

Brian? wrote: »

Hold up there. You think Trans women are predators who are a physical threat to women? That’s your line of objection?

Trans women commit sexual offences at the same rates, or higher, as males. If you accept that males pose a threat to females, then you have to accept that trans women pose the same threat to females. That's before we get into the fact that predatory males can also abuse self id to gain access to females.

Ironicname · 06-12-2019 7:45pm

I'm just baffled as to how gender dysphoria has been removed from the list of mental illnesses.

I can't see how genuinely believing that you the opposite sex when you demonstrably are not, to an extent where you are willing to mutilate your body, can be described as anything but a mental illness.

Jessica Yaniv refused service at gynaecologist's office

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