Irish Concepts of Urban Living Must Change

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:49pm

cnocbui wrote: »

You have never heard about people selling bridges they don't own, to the unsuspecting?

Never heard of this either, I would have went with the magic beans one if I were you

jam_mac_jam · 10-02-2020 4:54pm

The city is going to stop soon enough with the amount of cars. Somebody needs to do something, however I fear it will continue. We have been talking about a metro for forty years. We can't even have bus connects. I am not sure how this is all going to happen but I would love if it did.

We need huge investment in public transport and cycle faculties. The reliance on the car over everything is insane. There are just too many people now.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:56pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

The city is going to stop soon enough with the amount of cars. Somebody needs to do something, however I fear it will continue. We have been talking about a metro for forty years. We can't even have bus connects. I am not sure how this is all going to happen but I would love if it did.

We need huge investment in public transport and cycle faculties. The reliance on the car over everything is insane. There are just too many people now.

I don't think anything will change really, then there'll be a recession and metro etc will be called off and traffic will ease a bit anyway.

Church on Tuesday · 10-02-2020 4:58pm

cnocbui wrote: »

You have never heard about people selling bridges they don't own, to the unsuspecting?

No.

TheBoyConor · 10-02-2020 4:59pm

make petrol and diesel more expensive. More tax on it. And more tolls on the M50. That will discourage people driving into and around dublin.
Might also put some people off the idea of working in or moving to dublin altogether and they might get jobs down the country. Employers might set up bases down the country in order to get talent rather than having this Dublin or bust mentality.

jam_mac_jam · 10-02-2020 5:04pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I don't think anything will change really, then there'll be a recession and metro etc will be called off and traffic will ease a bit anyway.

Yes, we will be sitting here in another twenty years saying we need more trains.

10-02-2020 5:17pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Are you saying that people with disabilities cannot be young, professionals, or both? That is what you are suggesting. Developments should be accessible and suitable for all people.

I honestly don't understand this objection. Most apartment blocks worldwide have access points and facilities for those with disabilities. You make it sound like Irish disabled people have needs greater than those in Japan, or New York.

You forget that business people hold serious clout when it comes to things like this and they are a very strong lobby group.

Business zones fluctuate and move naturally. Most business people will recognise that apartment blocks means more people available within the city area, which results in more business. Proper planning with regards to shopping malls, or shopping blocks, would alleviate most concerns, especially if they had subway access that could meet the movement of people.

Likewise the elderly are a very strong group and they are particularly adept at getting on to councillors and TDs and anyone who might have a bit of influence and will listen to them.

True enough, but if Ireland wants progress then it needs to be able to bull past certain objections... for the greater good, so to speak. Anyway, I'm sure the suggestion that planned apartment complexes and organised shopping would decrease crime, pollution, and traffic would encourage a fair number of elderly to accept it.

A lot of naivety on this thread.

I've noticed... But then Irish like to criticise any suggestion of moving away from houses and embrace the realities of living in a modern city. Keeping to houses has ensured the housing crisis will continue, and become worse over time. Most migrants will move to Dublin to find work, and that will increase the demands for housing... At some point, you have to give up on small minded thinking.

I always find it interesting that this topic always gets so much criticism but so little constructive criticism. So many people just want to shut it down and go back to complaining about housing shortages. :rolleyes:

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 6:27pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

make petrol and diesel more expensive. More tax on it. And more tolls on the M50. That will discourage people driving into and around dublin.
Might also put some people off the idea of working in or moving to dublin altogether and they might get jobs down the country. Employers might set up bases down the country in order to get talent rather than having this Dublin or bust mentality.

Of course you aren't in Dublin now, are you?

Woke Hogan · 10-02-2020 8:00pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

Good for you. Just don't be expecting people in Dublin to be paying for city-level amenities and utilities right to your one-off house.

Isolation is a personal choice you made so you can live with the downsides of this.

Most of the population of this country live outside of Dublin, they're the ones actually paying for city-level amenities and utilities for the people in the capital.

beejee · 10-02-2020 8:12pm

The primary purpose of these things is to get as many people bunged in to as little space as possible.

No.

MrAbyss · 10-02-2020 8:19pm

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Most of the population of this country live outside of Dublin, they're the ones actually paying for city-level amenities and utilities for the people in the capital.

You might want to do a bit more research my friend.

If is wasn't for the colossal amount of wealth taken from Dublin tax payers and given to provincial Ireland most of you would be living in mud huts gnawing on a blighted spud while mauling your rosary beads for salvation.

and that is not even hyperbole.

Ubbquittious · 10-02-2020 8:29pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

You might want to do a bit more research my friend.

If is wasn't for the colossal amount of wealth taken from Dublin tax payers and given to provincial Ireland most of you would be living in mud huts gnawing on a blighted spud while mauling your rosary beads for salvation.

and that is not even hyperbole.

What a load of sh1tetalk. It must be tempting to think them bleedin culchies are taking your money but very little of it is arriving down here or any other remote part of the country.

There is huge wastage in getting the council or the government to do anything. To cut down a few saplings will cost them thousands. Private contractors are absolutely milking it. That is why you see no value for money.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 8:46pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

What a load of sh1tetalk. It must be tempting to think them bleedin culchies are taking your money but very little of it is arriving down here or any other remote part of the country.

There is huge wastage in getting the council or the government to do anything. To cut down a few saplings will cost them thousands. Private contractors are absolutely milking it. That is why you see no value for money.

Read this ye bleedin' culchie

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/property-tax-from-our-cities-still-props-up-rest-of-country-38443184.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/dubliners-get-up-to-50-times-less-funding-than-rural-dwellers-1.1730130

Woke Hogan · 10-02-2020 8:52pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

You might want to do a bit more research my friend.

If is wasn't for the colossal amount of wealth taken from Dublin tax payers and given to provincial Ireland most of you would be living in mud huts gnawing on a blighted spud while mauling your rosary beads for salvation.

and that is not even hyperbole.

The talk can never turn to the idea of high rise flats anywhere in this country without memories of skeletal junkies, dirty faced ruffians stoning rival football teams and equine maltreatment from the capital. Once again Dublin ruins something for the rest of us.

FreeThePants · 10-02-2020 8:53pm

KiKi III wrote: »

This is a silly complaint easily planned for. Three floors of underground parking for 10 floors of apartments. Simple.

I have also lived in high rise buildings in several large cities, and the car parks were almost entirely empty, with any of those even there belonging to people who lived in the suburbs, but sublet the space from someone so they could drive in to their downtown job.

Of course, this also has to do with the fact that public transport is immeasurably better in those cities than in Dublin.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 8:54pm

Woke Hogan wrote: »

The talk can never turn to the idea of high rise flats anywhere in this country without memories of skeletal junkies, dirty faced ruffians stoning rival football teams and equine maltreatment from the capital. Once again Dublin ruins something for the rest of us.

For a man in your 50s you have a very odd disliking of Dublin, you should know better, it's not the worst city by any standards.
Anyway there are plenty of well run high enough apartment buildings in Dublin, we just need more of them. Ballymun was a long time ago. I don't know how this thread has turned into a Dublin bashing thread.

buried · 10-02-2020 8:59pm

Don't build sky scrapers, build ground scrapers, build the towers into the ground. The view might be a bit $hite, but everyone is looking into some make of screen in their free time anyways. Use the excavated soil taken out from the ground to extend the landmass out into the sea thwarting the impending sea level rise.

Woke Hogan · 10-02-2020 9:03pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

For a man in your 50s you have a very odd disliking of Dublin, you should know better, it's not the worst city by any standards.
Anyway there are plenty of well run high enough apartment buildings in Dublin, we just need more of them. Ballymun was a long time ago. I don't know how this thread has turned into a Dublin bashing thread.

We absolutely need high rise apartments in Dublin and in other towns and cities in Ireland.

Honestly the government should build the lot of them, several estates of high-rise low-income apartments with decent facilities and amenities will go a long way towards solving a lot of problems in this country.

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 9:05pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

You might want to do a bit more research my friend.

If is wasn't for the colossal amount of wealth taken from Dublin tax payers and given to provincial Ireland most of you would be living in mud huts gnawing on a blighted spud while mauling your rosary beads for salvation.

and that is not even hyperbole.

Yes and no...

Dublin may be the driver of the economy, but Cork workers generate more revenue per person than their counterparts in the capital.

A new study shows workers in the Rebel County generate almost €105,000 per person every year, higher than the €96,000 produced by Dublin workers and even higher than that produced by high fliers in the City of London.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/revealed-the-county-that-generates-the-most-revenue-in-the-state-35031768.html

Ubbquittious · 10-02-2020 9:06pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Read this ye bleedin' culchie

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/property-tax-from-our-cities-still-props-up-rest-of-country-38443184.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/dubliners-get-up-to-50-times-less-funding-than-rural-dwellers-1.1730130

Property tax should never have been introduced and only frees up other money to pump into less noble causes like bailing out banks. We got along grand without it before. Hopefully that insufferable prick Hogan will be turfed out before long, that man really despised his country as is evident from his actions.

Even if you manage to get rid of all the people living in the countryside that doesn't mean you can shove all the money that was supposedly spent on them in your pocket

riclad · 10-02-2020 9:06pm

Every eu city has skyscrapers and high rise apartment,s ,
i live close to a 6 storey student accomodation block,
i see no sign of junkies or criminals hanging around there .
Builders can build apartments like in the uk or france ,if they have receptions with 24 hour security they will be no worse than any other buildings .
high rise buildings are better for the environment ,they reduce traffic and
travel time for people who live in them.
FG and fianna fail say they will build 20k house,s per year.
i doubt if the government could build a real metro system in dublin,
the children s hospital is still waiting to be built after 5 years in the plannign system.
building a underground metro is 10 times more expensive than building luas lines .

Woke Hogan · 10-02-2020 9:12pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Property tax should never have been introduced and only frees up other money to pump into less noble causes like bailing out banks. We got along grand without it before. Hopefully that insufferable prick Hogan will be turfed out before long, that man really despised his country as is evident from his actions.

Even if you manage to get rid of all the people living in the countryside that doesn't mean you can shove all the money that was supposedly spent on them in your pocket

Excuse me?

FreeThePants · 10-02-2020 9:12pm

I also think the association of skyscrapers with junkies is more of a generational thing, for the most part. I've rarely met anyone under around 40 with that mindset, unless of course specifically discussing Ballymun etc.

FreeThePants · 10-02-2020 9:13pm

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Excuse me?

I'm guessing me meant a different Hogan. :pac:

Ubbquittious · 10-02-2020 9:15pm

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Excuse me?

Phil Hogan. Should have used the full name sorry

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 9:20pm

Woke Hogan wrote: »

We absolutely need high rise apartments in Dublin and in other towns and cities in Ireland.

Honestly the government should build the lot of them, several estates of high-rise low-income apartments with decent facilities and amenities will go a long way towards solving a lot of problems in this country.

It cost more to build vertically than horizontally. One source I found says £1940 per square meter for an apartment block vs £1640 for a detached house.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 9:24pm

cnocbui wrote: »

It cost more to build vertically than horizontally. One source I found says £1940 per square meter for an apartment block vs £1640 for a detached house.

Who cares, we still need our cities to be denser and build up.

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 9:25pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Never heard of this either, I would have went with the magic beans one if I were you

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

No.

Seriously? https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I%20have%20a%20bridge%20to%20sell%20you

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 9:33pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Lived there for 2 years, love the place, didn't really notice the one offs like we have here tbh, but it was over 10 years ago

Australia is a nation based on urban sprawl. If you didn't notice it living in probably the most sprawled country on earth, then clearly it isn't the problem you make out. By every international comparison metric - health, longevity, happiness, liveability, Usually several Australian cities always rank in the top ten or twenty, which speaks volumes for how urban sprawl isn't a real social problem, no matter how much some people get a bee under their bonnet over it.

17larsson · 10-02-2020 9:38pm

I was in Hong Kong over christmas and they really know how to do high rise living.

Subway stations and bus stops everywhere. Only waiting minutes at all stops.

Apartment complexes are generally on top of shopping centres which are on top of a subway station. One of these apartment complexes (six buildings of seventy stories each) I was at had;

Two outdoor swimming pools
One indoor swimming pool
Two tennis courts
Bowling alley
Gym
Mutliple kids playgrounds (indoor and outdoor)

All that was part of the management fee for all residents.
Real thought and forward planning goes into everything they do.

It was just so easy to get everywhere and sometimes without even having to go outside.

It's easy to do all that when you have loads and loads of money though

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 9:45pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Australia is a nation based on urban sprawl. If you didn't notice it living in probably the most sprawled country on earth, then clearly it isn't the problem you make out. By every international comparison metric - health, longevity, happiness, liveability, Usually several Australian cities always rank in the top ten or twenty, which speaks volumes for how urban sprawl isn't a real social problem, no matter how much some people get a bee under their bonnet over it.

well it is a problem, when you have people sat in cars for 4 hours a day etc commuting. We don't have public transport to support urban sprawl. I was mostly in Melbourne which is pretty high density, lots of trams and trains too.

kravmaga · 10-02-2020 9:53pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Lived in Dublin and it was pure sh1te. I dont believe that so many people should be clustered together in such a small place. Living in the shticks now and much happier

Im a Dub, lived in the shticks for a few years, it was pure sh1te, I dont believe so many people in the shticks should be spread out in the rural bungalows ruining the views, pure sh1te it was, mucka's with teeth missing and not understanding them , back in Dublin, big smoke, love it.

Witchie · 10-02-2020 9:56pm

17larsson wrote: »

I was in Hong Kong over christmas and they really know how to do high rise living.

Subway stations and bus stops everywhere. Only waiting minutes at all stops.

Apartment complexes are generally on top of shopping centres which are on top of a subway station. One of these apartment complexes (six buildings of seventy stories each) I was at had;

Two outdoor swimming pools
One indoor swimming pool
Two tennis courts
Bowling alley
Gym
Mutliple kids playgrounds (indoor and outdoor)

All that was part of the management fee for all residents.
Real thought and forward planning goes into everything they do.

It was just so easy to get everywhere and sometimes without even having to go outside.

It's easy to do all that when you have loads and loads of money though

Pretty much the way of life here. I live in Kuala Lumpur on the 34th floor in a 3 bed, 2 bath apartment with a swimming pool and gym on the 8th floor. Oh and children's playground.

The first 5 floors are carparking, a small grocery shop, a launderette and security and management offices. From the 9th to the 39th floor there are 16 3 bed apartments on each floor. There are 4 blocks of these together. We all have a balcony.

This isn't a great complex though. Another nearby has a 2 storey shopping mall, 2 storeys of offices and carparking and then 30 floors of apartments.

We need to build a few such developments and connect up the public transport. My boyfriend and I don't have a car as we can get really cheap taxi(grab - similar to Uber) anywhere or hop on buses, monorail or lrt.

Having apartment blocks with amenities built in like a supermarket, shops, cinemas etc cuts down on transport and carbon footprint. Even if not in the same building but next door.

I have a mall with a Tesco around the corner too.

It just makes sense. Even if Dublin only did 10/12 storeys it would sort a lot of the homeless problem out.

Andrewf20 · 10-02-2020 10:29pm

Just buy a racing / commuter bike or or a moped. Sorted.

Also why cant the jobs move outwards with the housing, thus removing the need to go into the city in the 1st place.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 10:35pm

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Just buy a racing / commuter bike or or a moped. Sorted.

Also why cant the jobs move outwards with the housing, thus removing the need to go into the city in the 1st place.

Companies need to be in central locations to attract the right staff and access to amenities I'd say. Facebook etc don't want to be in Navan.

Andrewf20 · 10-02-2020 10:43pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Companies need to be in central locations to attract the right staff and access to amenities I'd say. Facebook etc don't want to be in Navan.

But I dont see what amenities staff need beyond what you find in any mid size village. Navan might a bit far out but if facebook was to locate in Saggart or Swords I dont see why this couldnt work. In fact, you could argue that a city centre location would put people off applying for jobs there due to the torturous city centre commute.

Out in Leixlip theres nearly 5000 people working in Intel for example.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 10:49pm

Andrewf20 wrote: »

But I dont see what amenities staff need beyond what you find in any mid size village. Navan might a bit far out but if facebook was to locate in Saggart or Swords I dont see why this couldnt work. In fact, you could argue that a city centre location would put people off applying for jobs there due to the torturous city centre commute.

Out in Leixlip theres nearly 5000 people working in Intel for example.

There are lots of companies in Swords too, not that Swords isn't congested af anyway. I suppose with the big tech companies anyway they want prestige locations so that's why they're all around silicon docks and d4 etc.

10-02-2020 10:49pm

cnocbui wrote: »

It cost more to build vertically than horizontally. One source I found says £1940 per square meter for an apartment block vs £1640 for a detached house.

Yes, but the costs for supporting infrastructure, and logistics more than make up the difference. A Sprawling housing estate would require far more in the way of support from police, services, etc than a tower complex. Harder to manage/maintain and more difficult to police over time, which in turn, would increase costs.

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 10:54pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

well it is a problem, when you have people sat in cars for 4 hours a day etc commuting. We don't have public transport to support urban sprawl. I was mostly in Melbourne which is pretty high density, lots of trams and trains too.

Geez you talk some bulldust, mate. You clearly only see what you want to see:

Melbourne has one of the largest urban footprints in the world due to its low-density housing, resulting in a vast suburban sprawl, with a high level of car dependence and minimal public transport outside of inner areas

Cardew, R; Fanning, P; George, J (1998). Urban Footprints and Stormwater Management: A Council Survey. Australian Institute of Urban Studies. pp. 16–25.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 10:57pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Geez you talk some bulldust, mate:

Cardew, R; Fanning, P; George, J (1998). Urban Footprints and Stormwater Management: A Council Survey. Australian Institute of Urban Studies. pp. 16–25.

I lived in Carlton so was right in the centre of things, it feels far denser than Dublin anyway but it does go out into Vic forever. I don't think there's any point comparing ourselves to Australia anyway given the size of the place.
Is your stance on this that sprawl is ok and we should be building outwards instead of up and more dense? I think that goes against anyone's idea of sensible planning.

10-02-2020 11:00pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Companies need to be in central locations to attract the right staff and access to amenities I'd say. Facebook etc don't want to be in Navan.

People here have some weird ideas regarding distance and time... It takes just under an hour to drive from Athlone to Dublin. When i go from my home in north Xi'an to visit my girlfriend who lives just south of the city center, it takes me just over an hour to get there by subway. By taxi, probably twice as long considering traffic.

If good infrastructure/transport is there, then most people won't have any issues with travelling an hour or two each day. It's being stuck in traffic that causes people to consider traveling and hour to be a pain..

Companies are already leaving Dublin proper to set up in the countryside although I suspect that more will consider just leaving Ireland altogether. This is a damn expensive country to be in compared to many other countries.

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 11:21pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I lived in Carlton so was right in the centre of things, it feels far denser than Dublin anyway but it does go out into Vic forever. I don't think there's any point comparing ourselves to Australia anyway given the size of the place.
Is your stance on this that sprawl is ok and we should be building outwards instead of up and more dense? I think that goes against anyone's idea of sensible planning.

I think decentralisation is a much better policy. Increase corporation tax for companies in Dublin to 22% and 14% for those 80 km or more from Dublin and that would probably solve most issues in a short space of time. Of course you would phase that in 2% at a time to dampen the squealing. People move to where jobs are far more than companies need to move to where people are. Has Apple had any problem whatsoever, attracting people to Cork from all over Europe and the World?

One of Ireland's biggest problems is the gutlessness and lack of imagination of it's governments. The public service runs the government.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 11:32pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Has Apple had any problem whatsoever, attracting people to Cork from all over Europe and the World?

Well no but Cork is Ireland's second city and has plenty of industry and attractions there, rent etc is through the roof there as well though.

MakingMovies2 · 11-02-2020 12:03am

MrAbyss wrote: »

You might want to do a bit more research my friend.

If is wasn't for the colossal amount of wealth taken from Dublin tax payers and given to provincial Ireland most of you would be living in mud huts gnawing on a blighted spud while mauling your rosary beads for salvation.

and that is not even hyperbole.

Go buy some heroin you scummy dub.

dd973 · 11-02-2020 12:52am

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Lived in Dublin and it was pure sh1te. I dont believe that so many people should be clustered together in such a small place. Living in the shticks now and much happier

Was back there the other week, it's funny how when you're away and visit it you see some things with more clarity, the city centre feels like a theme park and a Hiberno-London, the real Dublin for me is in places like Clontarf, Glasnevin or Dalkey, in a decent part of Cheshire now not far from Manchester and Liverpool if I want city stuff, far better quality of life, friendlier as well.

Anesthetize · 11-02-2020 1:02am

cnocbui wrote: »

You go live in your precious high rise, I for one never will.

What a hugely convincing counter-argument.

Graces7 · 11-02-2020 1:01pm

Anesthetize wrote: »

What a hugely convincing counter-argument.

It is actually the only valid one ie personal choice and belief. As opposed to dictatorship mentality

MrAbyss · 11-02-2020 2:55pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I think decentralisation is a much better policy. Increase corporation tax for companies in Dublin to 22% and 14% for those 80 km or more from Dublin and that would probably solve most issues in a short space of time. Of course you would phase that in 2% at a time to dampen the squealing. People move to where jobs are far more than companies need to move to where people are. Has Apple had any problem whatsoever, attracting people to Cork from all over Europe and the World?

One of Ireland's biggest problems is the gutlessness and lack of imagination of it's governments. The public service runs the government.

So murder the city of Dublin so GAA teams in Roscommon can have enough players from the new microsoft facility in Roosky to get back at the neighbouring parish who robbed them of the 1935 Bogball Inter-Parish semi-final?

I got news for you. The people in high-tech in Dublin don't like, want or need GAA, Ploughing Competitions or the parish priest coming around for tea. Cork city is also not Roosky or Buncrana.

riclad · 11-02-2020 3:18pm

Large tech companys will not move to rural area,s ,if the tax is raised to 22 per cent they will stop coming to ireland or reduce the no of employee,s .
in the age of brexit we cannot afford to raise tax,s ,most of the tax revenue comes from high income earners, and large companys .
certain type of companys like google or facebook will only have offices in citys ,also they need fast broadband.
Large parts of rural ireland have mediocre broadband.

Andrewf20 · 11-02-2020 3:38pm

riclad wrote: »

Large tech companys will not move to rural area,s ,if the tax is raised to 22 per cent they will stop coming to ireland or reduce the no of employee,s .
in the age of brexit we cannot afford to raise tax,s ,most of the tax revenue comes from high income earners, and large companys .
certain type of companys like google or facebook will only have offices in citys ,also they need fast broadband.
Large parts of rural ireland have mediocre broadband.

Broadband in the commuter counties of kildare, meath etc in my experience are as good as Dublin. I don't see why businesses can't set up out there more near clane, cellbridge, dunboyne and the like. There's still a huge pool of potential employees from Dublin and the satelite counties.

Irish Concepts of Urban Living Must Change

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