Irish Concepts of Urban Living Must Change

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 3:56pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Are you saying that people with disabilities cannot be young, professionals, or both? That is what you are suggesting. Developments should be accessible and suitable for all people.

You forget that business people hold serious clout when it comes to things like this and they are a very strong lobby group.

Likewise the elderly are a very strong group and they are particularly adept at getting on to councillors and TDs and anyone who might have a bit of influence and will listen to them.

A lot of naivety on this thread.

So what, we should just not try to change anything? I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think higher density car free living in Dublin is a good or bad thing? It is a far more sustainable way of living than the current models we adopt here.

TheBoyConor · 10-02-2020 3:58pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

so all the underground lines in high water areas like Amsterdam, Copenhagen Manhattan and London don't also exist?

You forget that these are areas that are very, very densely populated and therefore the extravagant construction costs of such projects can be justified. We will never have that level of population density in ireland.

You also forget that these projects were substantially built 30-40-50 years ago. Back then, there would have been nowhere near the the same level of H&S and environmental regulation. If the same projects were built nowadays, the costs would be profoundly greater. And the environmental and planning processes these days mean that the timescale for such projects are vastly more protracted and are frought with delays, objections, appeals, Judaical reviews, and then more appeals before anything happens.

Tis actually a wonder anything happens in ireland anymore.

Church on Tuesday · 10-02-2020 4:00pm

cnocbui wrote: »

You go live in your precious high rise, I for one never will.

It needs to happen though, eventually we will have to start building upwards.

elefant · 10-02-2020 4:04pm

The percentage of Irish people living in flats/apartments is, by a fair distance, the lowest in Europe.

I think it will take a big shift in public perception, and improvement of quality of housing stock in this area, to change this graph. I believe it would be a really progressive move, but not sure I can envision it happening.

Large swathes of the population seem to completely scoff at the idea of living and raising a family in an apartment building. It's just not the Irish way. We'd rather trade off location to live in the suburbs in a detached house with a garden, and poor public services.

completedit · 10-02-2020 4:07pm

elefant wrote: »

The percentage of Irish people living in flats/apartments is, by a fair distance, the lowest in Europe.

I think it will take a big shift in public perception, and improvement of quality of housing stock in this area, to change this graph. I think it would be a really progressive move, but not sure I can envision it happening.

Large swathes of the population seem to completely scoff at the idea of living and raising a family in an apartment building. It's just not the Irish way. We'd rather trade off location to live in the suburbs in a detached house with a garden, and poor public services.

In fairness it’s one of those things that in theory sounds good but having a garden that is nice to chill out in and that living space is unreal. I actually need it for the soul. Done student apartment living and you just feel far more couped up once you’re inside. Don’t like the feeling.

*Accomodation was poor to decent at best, maybe apartments built for long term family stays are better I don’t know...frankly I don’t want to know, it’s a living arrangement I could do without

MrAbyss · 10-02-2020 4:07pm

elefant wrote: »

The percentage of Irish people living in flats/apartments is, by a fair distance, the lowest in Europe.

and that's why they spend the most time stuck in traffic.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:08pm

completedit wrote: »

In fairness it’s one of those things that in theory sounds good but having a garden that is nice to chill out in and that living space is unreal. I actually need it for the soul. Done student apartment living and you just feel far more couped up once you’re inside. Don’t like the feeling.

Right, but it is simply unsustainable for everyone to live that way. Lots of people would like to be in a centrally located flat with access to everything on their doorstep.

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 4:13pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

It needs to happen though, eventually we will have to start building upwards.

No we won't, no more than any other place that isn't geographically constricted. Up is very expensive, sideways isn't. If you believe some of those nonsense predictions about Ireland's population imminently increasing substantially, I have a couple bridges you might be interested in.

elefant · 10-02-2020 4:14pm

completedit wrote: »

In fairness it’s one of those things that in theory sounds good but having a garden that is nice to chill out in and that living space is unreal. I actually need it for the soul. Done student apartment living and you just feel far more couped up once you’re inside. Don’t like the feeling.

Yes, it absolutely needs to be developed correctly. Apartment complexes shouldn't just be concrete boxes to go to and from work.

Not everybody needs a private garden, but public amenities are vital. Otherwise you quickly end up with social disasters like the Ballymun flats, the Parisian suburbs and the old Bijlmer district in Amsterdam.

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 4:14pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

There are people on these boards who seem to think the country would be a cleaner better place if we all lived in one offs ffs. This is what you're up against.

Ever been to Australia? If not, don't go, absolutely dire place, nothing but one-offs everywhere.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:15pm

cnocbui wrote: »

No we won't, no more than any other place that isn't geographically constricted. Up is very expensive, sideways isn't. If you believe some of those nonsense predictions about Ireland's population imminently increasing substantially, I have a couple bridges you might be interested in.

So you think we should just keep going with the urban sprawl and one off housing that Ireland has favoured until now? How long do you think we should carry on like this until things need to change? You do know land isn't finite, right?

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:15pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Ever been to Australia? If not, don't go, absolutely dire place, nothing but one-offs everywhere.

Lived there for 2 years, love the place, didn't really notice the one offs like we have here tbh, but it was over 10 years ago

Church on Tuesday · 10-02-2020 4:17pm

cnocbui wrote: »

No we won't, no more than any other place that isn't geographically constricted. Up is very expensive, sideways isn't. If you believe some of those nonsense predictions about Ireland's population imminently increasing substantially, I have a couple bridges you might be interested in.

Come again?

Graces7 · 10-02-2020 4:27pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

Good for you. Just don't be expecting people in Dublin to be paying for city-level amenities and utilities right to your one-off house.

Isolation is a personal choice you made so you can live with the downsides of this.

What downsides?

TheBoyConor · 10-02-2020 4:33pm

Getting home from the pub is the only downside.

More than made up for by the absence of chuggers and door to door sales constantly banging and putting litter through your door.

jimgoose · 10-02-2020 4:36pm

I live in/on my own little square of ground in a comfortable, safe suburb of Cork with plenty amenities immediately available, excellent bus links to the city centre and railway station, the mighty South Ring motorway practically coming into the yard and no gowlbags or toolbars around the place. Fcuk yiz all!

mariaalice · 10-02-2020 4:42pm

I am intrigued by how the poster believes that urban living is a cure for boredom and that the suburbs are the cause of all social ills.

All the cool authentic people live in the city and all the unhappy banal people live in the suburbs, urban life is a paradise with no downsides?

MrAbyss · 10-02-2020 4:43pm

Graces7 wrote: »

What downsides?

Tiresome ****ers scattered in O'Southforks all over Donegal saying 'Where is our train line?" constantly.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:45pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I am intrigued by how the poster believes that urban living is a cure for boredom and that the suburbs are the cause of all social ills.

All the cool authentic people live in the city and all the unhappy banal people live in the suburbs, urban life is a paradise with no downsides?

I don't think anyone is saying that. Higher density living is a must if we want better functioning cities that are not reliant on private cars and fossil fuels however.

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 4:47pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Come again?

You have never heard about people selling bridges they don't own, to the unsuspecting?

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:49pm

cnocbui wrote: »

You have never heard about people selling bridges they don't own, to the unsuspecting?

Never heard of this either, I would have went with the magic beans one if I were you

jam_mac_jam · 10-02-2020 4:54pm

The city is going to stop soon enough with the amount of cars. Somebody needs to do something, however I fear it will continue. We have been talking about a metro for forty years. We can't even have bus connects. I am not sure how this is all going to happen but I would love if it did.

We need huge investment in public transport and cycle faculties. The reliance on the car over everything is insane. There are just too many people now.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:56pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

The city is going to stop soon enough with the amount of cars. Somebody needs to do something, however I fear it will continue. We have been talking about a metro for forty years. We can't even have bus connects. I am not sure how this is all going to happen but I would love if it did.

We need huge investment in public transport and cycle faculties. The reliance on the car over everything is insane. There are just too many people now.

I don't think anything will change really, then there'll be a recession and metro etc will be called off and traffic will ease a bit anyway.

Church on Tuesday · 10-02-2020 4:58pm

cnocbui wrote: »

You have never heard about people selling bridges they don't own, to the unsuspecting?

No.

TheBoyConor · 10-02-2020 4:59pm

make petrol and diesel more expensive. More tax on it. And more tolls on the M50. That will discourage people driving into and around dublin.
Might also put some people off the idea of working in or moving to dublin altogether and they might get jobs down the country. Employers might set up bases down the country in order to get talent rather than having this Dublin or bust mentality.

jam_mac_jam · 10-02-2020 5:04pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I don't think anything will change really, then there'll be a recession and metro etc will be called off and traffic will ease a bit anyway.

Yes, we will be sitting here in another twenty years saying we need more trains.

10-02-2020 5:17pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Are you saying that people with disabilities cannot be young, professionals, or both? That is what you are suggesting. Developments should be accessible and suitable for all people.

I honestly don't understand this objection. Most apartment blocks worldwide have access points and facilities for those with disabilities. You make it sound like Irish disabled people have needs greater than those in Japan, or New York.

You forget that business people hold serious clout when it comes to things like this and they are a very strong lobby group.

Business zones fluctuate and move naturally. Most business people will recognise that apartment blocks means more people available within the city area, which results in more business. Proper planning with regards to shopping malls, or shopping blocks, would alleviate most concerns, especially if they had subway access that could meet the movement of people.

Likewise the elderly are a very strong group and they are particularly adept at getting on to councillors and TDs and anyone who might have a bit of influence and will listen to them.

True enough, but if Ireland wants progress then it needs to be able to bull past certain objections... for the greater good, so to speak. Anyway, I'm sure the suggestion that planned apartment complexes and organised shopping would decrease crime, pollution, and traffic would encourage a fair number of elderly to accept it.

A lot of naivety on this thread.

I've noticed... But then Irish like to criticise any suggestion of moving away from houses and embrace the realities of living in a modern city. Keeping to houses has ensured the housing crisis will continue, and become worse over time. Most migrants will move to Dublin to find work, and that will increase the demands for housing... At some point, you have to give up on small minded thinking.

I always find it interesting that this topic always gets so much criticism but so little constructive criticism. So many people just want to shut it down and go back to complaining about housing shortages. :rolleyes:

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 6:27pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

make petrol and diesel more expensive. More tax on it. And more tolls on the M50. That will discourage people driving into and around dublin.
Might also put some people off the idea of working in or moving to dublin altogether and they might get jobs down the country. Employers might set up bases down the country in order to get talent rather than having this Dublin or bust mentality.

Of course you aren't in Dublin now, are you?

Woke Hogan · 10-02-2020 8:00pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

Good for you. Just don't be expecting people in Dublin to be paying for city-level amenities and utilities right to your one-off house.

Isolation is a personal choice you made so you can live with the downsides of this.

Most of the population of this country live outside of Dublin, they're the ones actually paying for city-level amenities and utilities for the people in the capital.

beejee · 10-02-2020 8:12pm

The primary purpose of these things is to get as many people bunged in to as little space as possible.

No.

Irish Concepts of Urban Living Must Change

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