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News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

  • 23-10-2009 8:06pm
    #1
    darter
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭


    Damo9090 wrote: »
    After reviving many PM's regarding this thread and having a discussion with my fellow moderator we have decided to reopen this thread under strict conditions. As all previous warnings that myself and mango salsa issued have been ignored i have outlined below some points that will help this thread flow.

    Any personal abuse of fellow posters or anyone will incur a months ban.
    Any off topic posts will be removed and the offender will receive an infraction.
    If you want to rant about a Councillor start a new thread as this is not the place.
    Read the forum charter before you post as it will help avoid moderator attention.

    Any further information required please pm mango salsa or myself and we will be glad to help out.


    This is the final warning, if locked again it will not reopen and no new threads will be allowed.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73398792&postcount=859





    I'd like to start a thread that collects news and views on Greystones harbour and marina. Given the demonstrated eager propensity of the large-handed moderators to close anything down quickly if it strays from the topic of the OP, I ask that all of you who want to discuss anything other than "News and views on Greystones harbour and marina" do it in a separate thread. That way perhaps we can avoid the thread being closed whilst there are still very active participants providing useful information to the community...

    I will initiate the thread by saying that although I was against the development that was on principle - the principle being that this is the first time that public beach land in Ireland has been given over to a developer, and that it should not have been counternanced without the State becoming involved - as in the "real" politicians rather than our municipal ones. Now that it is happening, I have "moved on", and welcome its completion as I do think it will add significantly to Greystones.

    Please add your news (state the facts and reference the sources) and views (fact-less), but please keep to the topic of the thread.

    darter
    Post edited by 2011 on


«134567…64

Comments

  • #2
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    I am looking forward to a new modern harbour compared to what it is replacing.
    4038302328_f11a443faf.jpg


  • #3
    cuddlycavies
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭cuddlycavies


    Cant help thinking that with it's residential and business components will come accountability and reponsibility. I look forward to it's completion. In fairness, disturbance has been minimal in the town and surrounds.


  • #4
    Osvaldoc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Osvaldoc


    Work on the development started early in 2008 so it is now about 22 months in progress. Based on the planned progress in this promotional video the project is substantially behind schedule.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm8ugyqtHxU


  • #5
    LEIN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,936 ✭✭✭LEIN


    darter wrote: »
    I'd like to start a thread that collects news and views on Greystones harbour and marina. Given the demonstrated eager propensity of the large-handed moderators to close anything down quickly if it strays from the topic of the OP, I ask that all of you who want to discuss anything other than "News and views on Greystones harbour and marina" do it in a separate thread. That way perhaps we can avoid the thread being closed whilst there are still very active participants providing useful information to the community...

    I will initiate the thread by saying that although I was against the development that was on principle - the principle being that this is the first time that public beach land in Ireland has been given over to a developer, and that it should not have been counternanced without the State becoming involved - as in the "real" politicians rather than our municipal ones. Now that it is happening, I have "moved on", and welcome its completion as I do think it will add significantly to Greystones.

    Please add your news (state the facts and reference the sources) and views (fact-less), but please keep to the topic of the thread.

    darter

    If you have a problem with the moderation of this forum or any forum take it to pm. Consider that a warning.


  • #6
    darter
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭darter


    Walked down to the harbour yesterday. I was happy to see work still taking place on the weekend...

    It's also good to see the sailing club able to use the slipway and launch their boats and have fun even in moderate seas. It was a challenge, but one they all clearly enjoyed. It's important that the moderate seas don't stop our enjoyment of the facilities given us, and that we can launch boats out and see how they fair and see what others think of our sailing.

    Now, the question for the day is - is the financing there to finish the project completely, with town square, marina, club houses, shops and apartments? Or was the budget structured such that the sales of the apartments during the construction was a necessary part of cash-flow? I suspect the latter...

    I note that the new apartments on Kimberley Road next to the school are on the rental market by the developer even before completion - obviously the developer won't get his asking price now so is putting them out as rentals hoping that the absurd Celtic Tiger prices return within a short time frame. Would this though be a model for apartments that might be built at the harbour? I guess the answer depends on how deep the pockets are of Sispar.

    darter

    p.s. I note that the greystonesmarina forum (www.greystonesmarina.com) has died a death. Pity.


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  • #7
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    darter wrote: »
    I'd like to start a thread that collects news and views on Greystones harbour and marina. Given the demonstrated eager propensity of the large-handed moderators to close anything down quickly if it strays from the topic of the OP,


    darter

    In fairness to the moderators some of the other threads got very emotive and-on occasions-abusive. I think your idea is a good one and it is important that we keep emotion out of it as much as possible. That way people can be kept up to date with what is happenig/likely to happen.


  • #8
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    The piece below is the opinion of a local politican but it is based on meetings with the developer and I think the information on the removal of the hoarding is positive.


    Greystones Labour party Councillor Tom Fortune has expressed concerns over the delays in completing the community facilities associated with the Marina development at Greystones. “It has become clear at recent community liaison meetings with the developer that the completion of these facilities is contingent on the construction of the apartments that were intended to provide the finance for this whole project” he stated. “However there is little or no prospect of these apartments being constructed in the short or medium term” he continued “and so we must conclude that there is equally little hope for the community facilities-which were seen as a key benefit of this development by its promoters- unless the housing market picks up significantly”

    On a more positive note, Councillor Fortune announced some good news regarding the hoarding that has blocked off views of the sea from the harbour area for almost two years. “I expressed my concern about the presence of this hoarding to the developers and in response they have confirmed that they hope to remove a substantial portion of it next summer” said Councillor Fortune.
    “Because of its excessive scale, this project was always going to be very susceptible to housing market conditions” concluded Fortune. “Unfortunately the worst possible outcome has come to pass. It is now important is that all public representatives recognise the reality of the situation and work to protect the public interest in the new scenario facing us. Fortunately the developer is showing a willingness to work with us in this regard.”


  • #9
    williamb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭williamb


    Do we know what exactly is going to be left when the developers pull out ? My understanding is that they're finishing the sea walls :- does that mean we end up with piers, at least ?


  • #10
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    As I understand it the intention is to finish the sea walls and no more. (For the time being at any rate)


  • #11
    williamb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭williamb


    Fiachra2 wrote: »
    As I understand it the intention is to finish the sea walls and no more. (For the time being at any rate)

    I was afraid of that.

    SISK seem to be trying to get out of this with some dignity..Fiachra2, you're a local councillor, correct ? Do you have any insight,what can we realistically ask SISK to do ?


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  • #12
    Osvaldoc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Osvaldoc


    williamb wrote: »
    I was afraid of that.

    SISK seem to be trying to get out of this with some dignity..Fiachra2, you're a local councillor, correct ? Do you have any insight,what can we realistically ask SISK to do ?

    The PPP contract between Wicklow County Council and SISPAR is secret for commercial reasons. Only the Council can tell us what safeguards they have in place to ensure that the harbour area will be left in a usable position if the project is mothballed indefinitely. Hopefully the highly paid experts in WCC struck a good deal had allowed for this eventuality in the PPP contract


  • #13
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    Osvaldoc wrote: »
    The PPP contract between Wicklow County Council and SISPAR is secret for commercial reasons. Only the Council can tell us what safeguards they have in place to ensure that the harbour area will be left in a usable position if the project is mothballed indefinitely. Hopefully the highly paid experts in WCC struck a good deal had allowed for this eventuality in the PPP contract

    :eek:


  • #14
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    pixbyjohn wrote: »
    I am looking forward to a new modern harbour compared to what it is replacing.
    4038302328_f11a443faf.jpg

    Remember when the water used to come in there?


  • #15
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    williamb wrote: »
    .

    SISK seem to be trying to get out of this with some dignity..Fiachra2, you're a local councillor, correct ? Do you have any insight,what can we realistically ask SISK to do ?

    No I am not a councillor anymore but am still very involved.

    Your question is difficult to answer. There is a bond in place for €10M in the event of non completion of the project. However in can presumably only be excercised if the project is not completed. It may be of no use if the project is postponed. Based on the limited information available the developer has until at least 2014 to complete the project and possibly beyond that time. So it is likely that the developer could close down the site with the promise of returning in the next few years and in that event the bond could not be used to clear up the place. In any case WCC wouldn't clear it up if they thought there was any chance of the developer coming back.

    My own view is that we are better off appealing to SISPAR's better nature and their interest in not leaving a complete mess as their legacy to Greystones. However I have no idea what they will be prepared to do. Based on what they have said to date-see Tom Fortune quote above-it looks like much of the hoarding will be removed and we will have acess to some-if not all of the harbour.


  • #16
    egorski
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭egorski


    I'm very much looking forward to this development.

    We live quite close to the harbour. Throughout early October/late September
    when the weather was good, we could hear them dumping rock armour through the night practically every night. I assume this was to avail of the calm weather.


  • #17
    egorski
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭egorski


    On the topic of the harbour area - the old La Touche hotel seems to be a
    project that is going nowhere really fast - possibly even a NAMA candidate.

    I thought there was a law in Ireland that the council could acquire
    landmark sites that were left derelict. (I'm not an expert)

    It seems to be that the La Touche hotel is definitely derelict
    and definitely a landmark/heritage site. There certainly
    doesn't seem to be more demand for apartments/retail space.

    It could be a really excellent site for community use/space.

    Otherwise - I fear it will become a serious eyesore in the next five years
    or so.


  • #18
    thecommander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭thecommander


    egorski wrote: »
    On the topic of the harbour area - the old La Touche hotel seems to be a
    project that is going nowhere really fast - possibly even a NAMA candidate.

    I thought there was a law in Ireland that the council could acquire
    landmark sites that were left derelict. (I'm not an expert)

    It seems to be that the La Touche hotel is definitely derelict
    and definitely a landmark/heritage site. There certainly
    doesn't seem to be more demand for apartments/retail space.

    It could be a really excellent site for community use/space.

    Otherwise - I fear it will become a serious eyesore in the next five years
    or so.

    Its at the centre of a court battle
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0728/1224251491943.html


  • #19
    youknowwho
    Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭youknowwho


    I would be very surprised if there were not conditions in the planning permission with regard the completion of the public elements of the project notwithstanding the viability of the comercial element. I would also have expected the council to establish phased completion of certain elements such as the public areas and to have written these into the contract. If it is a case that the contractor pulls the plug without achieving this then in my view there would be a breach of contract and a bond should normally be called upon. That said our council members / officials may have got a very poor deal and the developer may hold all the cards!
    I'm sure the prospect of the harbour being completed and the high rise elements being postponed will please many people as this was the most contentious issue of the developement, we keep our views :) . There is also an outside chance that if they abandon the project that planning permission will expire. I don't think a similar application for high rise elements would be as successfull in the post Celtic Tiger era.
    With regard the La Touche Hotel this in an example of how our councilors and politicians have let a little gem in the town go to waste. There is a staturory duty on the owner of a protected structure to look after it, and also considerable powers given to our local planning authority to ensure that the owners do look after it, yet from what I can see there appears to have been very little imput from GTC or WCC on the matter to counter the neglect. I believe the bank are now the owners of the structure and they should be ordered to restore it. It is very unlikely that a developer would acquire it now because of it's listed nature and the amount of restoration work required as a result of the neglect.
    As mentioned in another post the local authority can acquire the structure if it appears necessary to do so for the protection of it, this would be in the form of a CPO and although i don't think it would get a high price tag because of the onerous nature of such acquisition, it still requires money which I don't feel the council have.


  • #20
    egorski
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭egorski


    Thanks for the clear description youknowwho.

    It would seem to me that if the La Touche is now owned by the banks and
    the banks are unlikely to pour money into this project - that the La Touche
    is now a real candidate for NAMA.

    Who knows what NAMA will decide to do with it?


  • #21
    Teamhar
    Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭Teamhar


    Hey folks,

    I've been thinking about leasing a premises for possible retail use on Trafalgar Road, very close to the new developments. I'm finding it hard to get a straight answer on what will be completed and when. The official website doesn't seem to have a lot of info and as someone else has mentioned, the forum there has died a death.

    Thanks
    T.


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  • #22
    Blandpebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Blandpebbles


    Only the ground work for the Harbour will be completed. Club houses and facilities are dependent on 341 Houses and Commericial Premises being completed and sold before they will be built.

    Contractually everything has to be finished by 2014, although the market conditions is now being used as an excuse for not building houses or club houses.

    Cllr Mitchell has said he will call for it to be finished :)


  • #23
    mirrorball
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 150 ✭✭mirrorball


    egorski wrote: »
    Thanks for the clear description youknowwho.

    It would seem to me that if the La Touche is now owned by the banks and
    the banks are unlikely to pour money into this project - that the La Touche
    is now a real candidate for NAMA.

    Who knows what NAMA will decide to do with it?

    What a disaster the La Touche is. It saddens me that we have allowed such a treasure to rot.


  • #24
    jobless
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭jobless


    Bad News

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0222/1224264939272.html


  • #25
    Blandpebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Blandpebbles


    jobless wrote: »
    Bad News

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0222/1224264939272.html

    Nothing we didn't know weeks ago. Irish Times are just repeating what was in the Bray People and Online last week as well.


  • #26
    Huntthe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 480 ✭✭Huntthe


    Cllr Mitchell is going to be very busy what with painting and decorating up at the La Touche and finishing the harbour.


  • #27
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    I can't say I didn't see all this happening.

    Although before things started slowing down I thought that the whole damn seafront was just going to be a wall of apartments.

    Whole damn town is becoming a monument to greed.
    I miss the town I grew up in.


  • #28
    Blandpebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Blandpebbles


    D'Oracle. Me too :(

    Not surprising at all, why should Greystones be cosetted from the Greed that engulfed this country. Like Many places around the country we are now left with a monument to greed and certain politicians who will produce soundbites at the same rate their consultancy fees earn interest.


  • #29
    Langerland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 328 ✭✭Langerland


    And so another monumental marina thread begins......

    So many of us said nay....a few said yay....but no point in "I told you so's"....the main issue now should be to get the harbour to some kind of presentable state asap. It's an absolute mess at the moment and will be for another Summer. The temporary batching plant must be here for a little longer....what an eye sore that is....and in the article they mention temporary surfaces to be in place by 2011??


  • #30
    darter
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭darter


    Langerland wrote: »
    And so another monumental marina thread begins......

    ....but no point in "I told you so's"....

    Thanks Langerland for encouraging posters to keep the thread on-topic. As the OP I hope that we do stay on-topic, as I wouldn't like to see this thread locked. Prior marine threads were locked because of straying. It's important that we have an area where we can exchange information - even if we don't like that information.

    If only the outer wall is going to be in place, and no marina facilities completed, then the cash flow won't start, which will make completion even further off.


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  • #31
    Huntthe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 480 ✭✭Huntthe


    The chances of the funds from the company ever coming are minimal. It will be up to the clubs to provide their own facilities again and up the Council to make the area useable. We got a new Harbour, we're not getting all those houses, it's not the worst outcome although messy short term.

    All those houses and the traffic they would bring concentrated in such a small area was always my main concern.


  • #32
    Blandpebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Blandpebbles


    New Clubhouse for Rowing Club approx 200k if self financed, free under PPP.

    Hopefully when the hoardings come down we will all see what we are dealing with.


  • #33
    Huntthe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 480 ✭✭Huntthe


    It will be a gradual thing the Council should help the local clubs to secure funding through long term loans. I assume the planning permission for the houses does not have an indefinite time span and we can crack on without fear of interference from the developer at a later stage ?


  • #34
    Blandpebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Blandpebbles


    PPP Contract expires in 2014, however as the 'market conditions' clause was included SISK are under no obligation to build houses.

    Loans for clubs wouldnt go down well with those who were sold the PPP as the solution.

    Can't say I would be sorry if no houses were built but I worry for the great clubs we have in Greystones.


  • #35
    Huntthe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 480 ✭✭Huntthe


    There isn't a snowballs that it will be completed by 2014.
    Loans for clubs wouldnt go down well with those who were sold the PPP as the solution.

    Sure, but they took a gamble or a leap of faith if you like, and it didn't pay off or at least only half of it did. They will have to accept the reality of the situation and roll their sleeves up to rebuild as they did before and I'm sure will again.


  • #36
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Any chance someone could post some progress pictures?


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  • #37
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    There is a photo here> http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0222/1224264939272.html


  • #38
    Langerland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 328 ✭✭Langerland


    pixbyjohn wrote: »
    There is a photo here> http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0222/1224264939272.html

    I was down there for a look on Sunday and it seems like the outer wall is almost complete and the inner pier is also almost finished. The place is an absolute mess though. However, to make it anyway presentable, the marina, the new beach area and the public square would have to be completed.

    I assume the batching plant above the north beach will be just shut down and left there while they decide what they are doing. That has destroyed the views coming in on the train.


  • #39
    darter
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭darter


    Langerland wrote: »
    I assume the batching plant above the north beach will be just shut down and left there while they decide what they are doing. That has destroyed the views coming in on the train.

    More than the views from the train, it has ruined the end of the very nice Bray-Greystones cliff walk. Although, if the north beach erosion isn't seriously addressed soon, the walk will be diverted to the road and there won't be a train as there won't be any tracks...


  • #40
    sysconp1
    Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭sysconp1


    This may be worth further investigation...

    A close friend of ours was in the Beachhouse last Saturday and was told that the company responsible for the harbour work is running out of money. Not sure how bad things are but anyone with connections may want to investigate this one further. I would have thought the local council would have been all over this like a rash, but then again you never know! I hope this isn't true and the harbour is at least made usable and not so much of a blot on a pleasant landscape.


  • #41
    Blandpebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Blandpebbles


    This isn't a secret. They will finish off with the cheapest possible materials and finish now.


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  • #42
    cavemeister
    Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭cavemeister


    Guys,

    Correct me if I am wrong (and I hope I am) but is it true that work on the new Greystones Harbour development is to cease? Was speaking to a fellow Greystonian and he was telling me that the funding is gone and developers are to start wrapping up. They are under instructions to "Tidy up" and hopefully in 2015, work will commence again!

    Say it isn't so... just need someone to say "mis-informed" would be awful for the local community!


  • #43
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    Didn't hear anything. Who is the fellow Greystonian who told you this ? Is he in the know about these things ?
    Is he anti or pro the harbour developments ?
    I would like to know first hand so if you have hard facts lay them on the table. There have been so many threads about the harbour containing lots of fiction.
    Can you answer any or all of my questions please ?


  • #44
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,103 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    merged into existing harbour thread.


  • #45
    Alan_P
    Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭Alan_P


    Irish Times story from a month ago :-

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0222/1224264939272.html

    Opening paragraph of above :-
    "WORK IS to be “paused” on public facilities in the €300 million Greystones Harbour redevelopment project in north Co Wicklow, its backers have confirmed."

    So yes the project is being suspended.


    For completeness,and by coincidence, a follow up story from today's IT :-
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0323/1224266876139.html

    Locals warn of increasing erosion on Greystones north beach.


  • #46
    cavemeister
    Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭cavemeister


    Makes me sick to the pit of my stomach..... After all the asurances from the developers, they pull out!

    Someone MUST be held accountable!


  • #47
    Langerland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 328 ✭✭Langerland


    It's a bit idealistic and naive to think somebody might be held accountable in this country. However, it is certainly on the shoulders of those in the Council that pushed this through to find an acceptable medium term solution to the mess that is down there now - Messrs Mitchell and Jones IT'S YOUR MESS - SORT IT OUT!


  • #48
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    cavemeister wrote: »
    Correct me if I am wrong (and I hope I am) but is it true that work on the new Greystones Harbour development is to cease? Was speaking to a fellow Greystonian and he was telling me that the funding is gone and developers are to start wrapping up. They are under instructions to "Tidy up" and hopefully in 2015, work will commence again!

    Say it isn't so... just need someone to say "mis-informed" would be awful for the local community!

    In reality it is unlikely that anyone apart from a few senior people in SISPAR know the real financial situation regarding this development. It is unlikely that even the WCC officaials know where it stands. So I woulnt lend too much weight to any rumors of this kind. The developers have stated they will leave in the autumn with the harbour finished to some-significant- degree. Whats not clear is how much of the hoarding will come down and what degree of access to the harbour will be available. Some councillors are trying to establish this and when they do they will try and let you know.

    There have been statements to the effect that the project "must" be completed by 2014. That would be inaccurate. The project will only be fully completed when the housing market picks up to an adequate level.


  • #49
    Blandpebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Blandpebbles


    Fiachra is correct. It's a PPP, anything apart from the minimal harbour is funded by the Private Sale of Houses and Business Premises. As this will not happen, no further work will be done.

    This a is a common practice within a PPP to ensure the Public receive some form of delivery and the Private element is not commited to further development without chance of return on investment.

    Look around Ireland, nearly every major Apartment Complex made use of a PPP Agreement.

    No one in SISPAR or otherwise is at fault here, as this was caused by a downturn in the market and as such covered in the PPP Contract.

    What is a very big shame, is the Hubris of our Town's Councillor's in signing the agreement, but really did anyone including them, think a downturn was coming?


  • #50
    Langerland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 328 ✭✭Langerland


    Well without getting into a discussion on who foresaw the downturn or not, I would still hold the councillors who pushed this through (as well as Sispar) responsible for ensuring that the harbour area is returned to a somewhat aesthetically pleasing or presentable and usable format for the period the works are paused. I would not be very happy if those same councillors are not as vocal in this regard as they were when promoting this project. I only ever seem to read of Cllr. Fortune voicing concerns and looking for answers....


  • #51
    mjmorrisroe
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭mjmorrisroe


    What a frickin' joke... Useless, useledd, useless... Maybe when my kid is 15 we'll see the harbour finished... Government has a responsibility to finish it..


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