Health authorities' attitude to effect of restrictions on people's lives.

Grab All Association · 16-09-2020 1:53pm #1

Dr Feeley (70) stepped down from his post as clinical director of Dublin Midlands Hospital Group on Tuesday with immediate effect.

After his public comments, he came under heavy pressure from HSE management, who told him his position was untenable.

A doctor for more than 45 years and an employee of the health service for 30 years, Dr Feeley says he stands by his comments, but decided to resign so management in his hospital group would not be penalised.

We have no idea whether he’s correct or not, his comments didn’t change anything in regard to restrictions and approach taken. He hasn’t cost lives with his advice.

This is not a thread questioning who is in the right or wrong here, it’s a thread questioning the treatment this doctor has received from the HSE. A doctor who gave 45 years of his life, 30 years in public healthcare being pressured into resigning just because he has an opinion that differs to the HSE.

This be the same HSE caught employing fake doctors or incompetent ones that were struck off in the UK for malpractice.

Slasher · 16-09-2020 2:23pm

First of all, he resigned - he said so. He was not sacked. It is not possible to sack people in the HSE - well, it's possible, but it would take about a year.

He is allowed to have an opinion. He is not allowed to undermine the HSE's message in a public forum (he is employed by HSE). If i did that, i would be disciplined by my boss, and rightly so. He could have written a letter to the CMO and the CEO expressing his reservations.

Anyway, don't feel too sorry for poor old Martin. He is a consultant vascular surgeon, 70 years old. He will retire on a well-deserved pension.

BattleCorp · 16-09-2020 2:38pm

He could have told them to go fcuk themselves and stayed in his job. He decided not to do that. More's the pity.

I don't agree with his suggestions by the way, I just don't like people being hounded out of their jobs for having differing opinions.

Metroid diorteM · 16-09-2020 2:50pm

What did he say?

Slasher · 16-09-2020 2:59pm

Metroid diorteM wrote: »

What did he say?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/covid-19-is-far-more-dangerous-than-flu-1.4354743

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/draconian-restrictions-around-covid-19-condemned-by-hse-doctor-1.4352701

Princess Calla · 16-09-2020 3:04pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

He could have told them to go fcuk themselves and stayed in his job. He decided not to do that. More's the pity.

I don't agree with his suggestions by the way, I just don't like people being hounded out of their jobs for having differing opinions.

It's not really about having a different opinion though.

It's broadcasting that opinion and undermining your employer.

You do need to tow the company line especially in public.

seamus · 16-09-2020 3:07pm

His tenure is irrelevant.

His decision to come out and make a statement about Covid off his own bat, as well as making a song and dance about stepping down "so others wouldn't be penalised", tells me that Dr. Feeley obviously thinks very highly of himself and is enjoying all the attention.

My experience of Irish consultant surgeons of his vintage is that they are constructed entirely of pure arrogance.

He made a public statement about an area of medicine outside of his speciality, with no basis in fact and which entirely contradicted the current national and internal data and advice. For any medical professional, that's a disciplinary matter that requires sanction.

monkeybutter · 16-09-2020 3:11pm

aah its not a differing of opinion though is it

its bull****, it's flat earther type stuff

It's denying the numbers, over 200k people have died schtateside already and we aren't even in the season when the flu would hit, so if that correlates it would get worse

you can't get herd immunity with 100ks of people all infected at the same time and still keep vulberable groups safe

Lockdowns might prove to not have been the right move, but we avoided becoming Italy or Spain, which people are quick to forget

monkeybutter · 16-09-2020 3:12pm

Princess Calla wrote: »

It's not really about having a different opinion though.

It's broadcasting that opinion and undermining your employer.

You do need to tow the company line especially in public.

you can have a differing opinion and speak up about it

if its based in some kind of logic

Princess Calla · 16-09-2020 3:20pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

you can have a differing opinion and speak up about it

if its based in some kind of logic

Yeah but follow the correct procedure /channels.

If you get nowhere you might become a "whistle blower".

You also need hard facts to back up your opinion.

Going straight to press is not how to deal with an issue you have with your employer.

political analyst · 05-10-2020 1:00pm

Former Dublin-Midlands Hospital Group clinical director Dr Martin Feeley believes that we must take a different approach at this stage of the pandemic.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/i-lost-my-job-for-speaking-out-but-i-have-no-regrets-dr-martin-feeley-on-his-coronavirus-views-39585808.html

Dr Feeley, who is from Co. Roscommon, said that he has heard reports from the North-West of concern about the suicide rate in the region.

He said that, in his opinion, Prof. Sam McConkey's belief that the virus can be eradicated by Christmas is pie in the sky and that the use of case numbers to dictate policy is a fallacy because there is a 1% false positive rate and that we need to manage clusters locally.

After Dr Feeley broke the collective consensus, other senior public voices aired similar views, e.g. the Tánaiste, Dr Varadkar, who said that the object was to make sure our health service wasn't overwhelmed, not lock-down the country and economy until there's no Covid at all.

Prof. Paul Moynagh said that 'ultra-caution' carries significant wisks.

As for why we haven't heard from other HSE physicians, Dr Feeley said:

When you buy into something completely, it's much harder to come off track later and come out and say it. That's my excuse for people from the medical side not putting their head above the parapet, instead of saying: 'We need to think about this again.'

The profession is left wanting - everyone seems to be afraid to question national policy, and a bunch of public health doctors seem to be running the country. I lost my job for speaking up but look at all the others who have lost work, salaries, maybe businesses and can't pay their mortgages and no one is talking about them.

Me losing my job is nothing compared to that.

Does it not occur to other physicians who are senior public-health experts that they have a duty of care to sufferers of all illnesses - physical and psychological - not just Covid?!

Do senior personnel in the HSE and NPHET not consider the impact of the restrictions on people's lives?

Do the HSE and NPHET not understand that shutting down the economy means less money for the health service?

drunkmonkey · 05-10-2020 1:04pm

You don't bite the hand that feeds as Dr Feeley demonstrated. No one else will make a stand it's up to the people now.

Sconsey · 05-10-2020 1:28pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You don't bite the hand that feeds as Dr Feeley demonstrated. No one else will make a stand it's up to the people now.

Or maybe he is the only one that thinks this way.

bush · 05-10-2020 1:34pm

Sconsey wrote: »

Or maybe he is the only one that thinks this way.

Do you really think that?

Sconsey · 05-10-2020 1:38pm

bush wrote: »

Do you really think that?

Based on the fact that no one else seems to have spoken out to agree with him, yes I do.

Edit: no one else of consequence, I'm sure there are many out there who agree with him but not so many in the Irish medical practice by the looks of things.

munchkin_utd · 05-10-2020 1:54pm

Sconsey wrote: »

Based on the fact that no one else seems to have spoken out to agree with him, yes I do.

Edit: no one else of consequence, I'm sure there are many out there who agree with him but not so many in the Irish medical practice by the looks of things.

you mean, people in high paid jobs for life (if you dont do anything stupid in the meantime) are staying stumm in order to stay in their high paid jobs and coast to a gold plated 1million+ pension pot, and keep the wife in the manner she has been accustomed to.

Of course too, many are all in the middle of their career, and the cash might be a nice bonus, but why would you throw away a career as a high level medical practioner by disagreeing with one of the top medical bodies in the country. Sure, it'd be like a senior engineer at Audi or Volkswagen 10 years ago speaking up that fiddling with the emissions might not be the correct path - not a wise career move.

Sconsey · 05-10-2020 2:09pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

you mean, people in high paid jobs for life (if you dont do anything stupid in the meantime) are staying stumm in order to stay in their high paid jobs and coast to a gold plated 1million+ pension pot, and keep the wife in the manner she has been accustomed to.

Of course too, many are all in the middle of their career, and the cash might be a nice bonus, but why would you throw away a career as a high level medical practioner by disagreeing with one of the top medical bodies in the country. Sure, it'd be like a senior engineer at Audi or Volkswagen 10 years ago speaking up that fiddling with the emissions might not be the correct path - not a wise career move.

I just don't buy that argument, there are enough medical practioners in the country that they are not all financially motivated, at least in my opinion.

Plus it seems like it is the same story in the rest of the EU, are they all career driven too?

I just get the feeling that this guy (Dr. Feeley) is telling people what they want to hear so people are latching on to it (I'm guilty of this too, especialy when it comes to good vaccine news!).

alias no.9 · 05-10-2020 2:40pm

Surely to have a false positive, you have to have a positive and as such the 1% rate must be a function of the positive test results and not the total number of tests done which would make this a red herring.

If it is the case that you get 1% of all tests as false positives rather than 1% of all positives being false positives, then somewhere between 25% and 30% of reported cases are false positive and it would be bat**** crazy to base public policy on such inaccurate data, I do however suspect the 1% refers to the positive tests rather than total tests, can anyone clarify?

iamwhoiam · 05-10-2020 2:45pm

A geriatrician consultant from Tallaght Hospital had spoken out a few times about the dreadful effects the isolation had on the elderly . He maintains that no one should be asked to isolate and have no visits

drunkmonkey · 05-10-2020 3:06pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

Surely to have a false positive, you have to have a positive and as such the 1% rate must be a function of the positive test results and not the total number of tests done which would make this a red herring.

If it is the case that you get 1% of all tests as false positives rather than 1% of all positives being false positives, then somewhere between 25% and 30% of reported cases are false positive and it would be bat**** crazy to base public policy on such inaccurate data, I do however suspect the 1% refers to the positive tests rather than total tests, can anyone clarify?

If your calculating the rate you have to do it on the total amount of tests not just the positive ones.
So yes it's bat **** crazy what has been allowed happen.
Even of the positives we don't know when they relate to as NPHET still haven't published the amount of cycles used.
It's one thing using a PCR test in a lab based setting but when you roll that out to the wider community with the samples being taken in under ground carparks and make shift tents it's a completely different matter.

yosemitesam1 · 05-10-2020 3:33pm

Sconsey wrote: »

I just don't buy that argument, there are enough medical practioners in the country that they are not all financially motivated, at least in my opinion.

Plus it seems like it is the same story in the rest of the EU, are they all career driven too?

I just get the feeling that this guy (Dr. Feeley) is telling people what they want to hear so people are latching on to it (I'm guilty of this too, especialy when it comes to good vaccine news!).

I think an issue with this is that the vast majority of medical workers don't actually have much training in aspects of epidemiology, population ecology, field work etc.
This lack of knowledge on core subjects needed to gain a big picture view of covid are missing right across the board

MadYaker · 05-10-2020 3:39pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

I think an issue with this is that the vast majority of medical workers don't actually have much training in aspects of epidemiology, population ecology, field work etc.
This lack of knowledge on core subjects needed to gain a big picture view of covid are missing right across the board

Except all the people on NPHET who have hundreds of collective years experience studying pandemics and viruses. A lack of expertise isn’t the problem. It’s a lack of proper communication and a dysfunctional government is the problem.

Charles Babbage · 05-10-2020 3:51pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

A geriatrician consultant from Tallaght Hospital had spoken out a few times about the dreadful effects the isolation had on the elderly . He maintains that no one should be asked to isolate and have no visits

He is right, which is why Covid needs to be driven down to such a low level that all such people can have visits.

yosemitesam1 · 05-10-2020 3:56pm

MadYaker wrote: »

Except all the people on NPHET who have hundreds of collective years experience studying pandemics and viruses. A lack of expertise isn’t the problem. It’s a lack of proper communication and a dysfunctional government is the problem.

Who in nphet has experience in researching the epidemiology and effects of respiratory disease at a population level?

05-10-2020 4:34pm

Sconsey wrote: »

I just get the feeling that this guy (Dr. Feeley) is telling people what they want to hear so people are latching on to it (I'm guilty of this too, especialy when it comes to good vaccine news!).

This is a huge point. Everybody has their own opinion and there is an inherent bias to favour those who agree with that opinion. If Dr Feely was claiming something that the majority didn't agree with.....i.e. that the moon was made out of cheese........he'd be dismissed out of hand as a quack. But because he's saying things that people agree with (or wish were treu) he's being lionised by certain quarters.

Claiming he's not alone, but others are too afraid to stick their neck out is the stuff of the conspiracy theory forum. If there was any sort of groundswell of support we'd be hearing all about it from the Patriot movement side.

alias no.9 · 05-10-2020 5:37pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If your calculating the rate you have to do it on the total amount of tests not just the positive ones.
So yes it's bat **** crazy what has been allowed happen.
Even of the positives we don't know when they relate to as NPHET still haven't published the amount of cycles used.
It's one thing using a PCR test in a lab based setting but when you roll that out to the wider community with the samples being taken in under ground carparks and make shift tents it's a completely different matter.

The current 7 day total tests is 90,199 with a positive rate of 3.4% according to the app. Allowing for 1% of all tests to be false positives, the headline rate reported is overstated by 30%. The macro trend is of interest but the the numbers as reported are pretty meaningless.

Up until now I've left it to the medical folk to look at the data but after finding out the above I've taken the time to look at the epidemiology report today, the report can be seen here https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casesinireland/epidemiologyofcovid-19inireland/COVID-19_Daily_epidemiology_report_(NPHET)_20201002%20-%20website.pdf
My first observation is that they could do with consistency in their time scales from graph to graph as it makes it difficult to compare. I hope this is just a consequence of different contributors to the report but a little standardisation wouldn't go astray.

The next thing just jumped out at me from two charts in particular, Figure 5: Trend in number of COVID-19 clusters by location and week notified to midnight 30/09/2020 and Figure 6a: Daily and 7 day moving average number of deaths among COVID-19 cases notified in Ireland by date of death and cumulative total to midnight 30/09/2020, I've overlaid them into a GIF, but it's clear and obvious once the clusters in nursing homes and care homes were brought under control, the death rate has flatlined.

Since the lockdown ended, transmission in private houses is by far the dominant pareto but the effect on the mortality rate is not evident. Surely it's time to move past the use of blunt instruments like lockdowns, it was the correct thing to do in March when we knew little about Covid, it's not the right thing now. The resources of the state should be focussed on where they're needed most, keeping the long term residential care units Covid free through a regime of testing and contact tracing of all residents, staff and visitors.

Beasty · 05-10-2020 5:48pm

Threads merged

hmmm · 05-10-2020 5:50pm

Just because we detect the virus in private homes, doesn't mean it started there. In most cases we hear about, the person picked it up outside the home and brought it back in.

munchkin_utd · 06-10-2020 12:25pm

a source close to the government has hit the nail on the head :

"It was all about protecting normal hospital activity and maybe schools and childcare, while the private sector was to be sacrificed," the minister said.

"It is easy for 40 public servants to put 400,000 people out of their jobs while they don't lose a penny," the source added.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/relationship-between-government-and-nphet-changed-forever-as-ministers-blindsided-by-health-experts-meeting-39592752.html

jackal · 06-10-2020 12:39pm

MadYaker wrote: »

Except all the people on NPHET who have hundreds of collective years experience studying pandemics and viruses. A lack of expertise isn’t the problem. It’s a lack of proper communication and a dysfunctional government is the problem.

How do you add up to hundreds of years of studying pandemics and viruses from this list of members. The majority of them are executives or managers.

Lets be real here and acknowledge that even the Virologists and Epidemiological specialists have not dealt with Covid 19 before, it is an evolving situation, and its clearly not a uniformly deadly disease that is easy to model and predict.

I am sure they are trying their best, and they are the best people to *advise* the government. Not dictate, advise. They have an extremely narrow focus on this one issue, but running the country is a lot more complex than that, and the measures they advise on affect the whole country.

Dr Tony Holohan, chief medical officer at the Department of Health.

Prof Colm Bergin, infectious diseases consultant at St James’s Hospital and Professor of Medicine at Trinity College Dublin.

Paul Bolger, director of Department of Health resources division.

Dr Eibhlin Connolly, deputy chief medical officer at the Department of Health.

Tracey Conroy, assistant secretary in the acute hospitals division of the Department of Health.

Dr John Cuddihy, interim director of the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC).

Dr Cillian de Gascun, director of the National Virus Reference Laboratory in UCD.

Colm Desmond, assistant secretary for corporate legislation, mental health, drugs policy and food safety division in the Department of Health.

Dr Lorraine Doherty, national clinical director for health protection in the HPSC.

Dr Mary Favier, president of the Irish College of General Practitioners.

Dr Ronan Glynn, deputy chief medical officer in the Department of Health.

Fergal Goodman, assistant secretary in the primary care division in the Department of Health.

Dr Colm Henry, HSE chief clinical officer.

Dr Kevin Kelleher, HSE assistant national director of public health.

Marita Kinsella, director of the national patient safety office in the Department of Health.

David Leach, HSE deputy national director of communications.

Dr Kathleen Mac Lellan, assistant secretary in Department of Health social care division.

Dr Jeanette McCallion, Health Products Regulatory Authority (HPRA) medical assessor.

Tom McGuinness, assistant national director at HSE office of emergency planning.

Dr Siobhán Ní Bhrian, HSE lead for integrated care.

Prof Philip Nolan, chair of Irish Epidemiological Modelling Advisory Group and president of Maynooth University.

Kate O’Flaherty, head of health and wellbeing at Department of Health.

Dr Darina O’Flanagan, special adviser to NPHET at Department of Health.

Dr Siobhán O’Sullivan, chief bioethics officer at Department of Health.

Dr Michael Power, national clinical lead of HSE critical care programme and consultant in intensive care medicine at Beaumont Hospital.

Phelim Quinn, chief executive of Health Information and Quality Authority (Hiqa).

Dr Máirín Ryan, deputy chief executive and director of health technology assessment at Hiqa.

Dr Alan Smith, Department of Health deputy chief medical officer.

Dr Breda Smyth, HSE director of health and public health medicine.

David Walsh, HSE national director of community operations.

Deirdre Watters, head of communications at Department of Health.

Liam Woods, HSE national director of acute operations.

Lorraine Doherty, HPSC clinical director for health protection.

Health authorities' attitude to effect of restrictions on people's lives.

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