Luas upgrade to 55m

zom · 02-12-2018 1:01am #1

In a spot of Metrolink proposal, is an idea of upgrading shorter Luas trams suspended / abandoned now? I remember introducing new long Luases was backed by prospect of having all Luases gradually upgraded to 55m. Is it scrapped now?

Atlantic Dawn · 02-12-2018 1:03am

Was there not issues crossing O'Connell bridge with them being too long when stopped? Realistically they should have gone double decker for more capacity instead.

zom · 02-12-2018 1:07am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Was there not issues crossing O'Connell bridge with them being too long when stopped? Realistically they should have gone double decker for more capacity instead.

I may be wrong but I have strange feeling they limited use of 55m Luases during rush hours (green line). I had no luck to see long Luases in the mornings or evenings recently, but it is pretty easy to spot one in the middle of a day (working days).

Stephen15 · 02-12-2018 1:07am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Was there not issues crossing O'Connell bridge with them being too long when stopped? Realistically they should have gone double decker for more capacity instead.

Double deckers trams are not made anymore. The only place that has them is Hong Kong but they're only the same size as double decker buses and nowhere near the size of a full length Luas.

CatInABox · 02-12-2018 1:11am

No, it's still going ahead. All green line trams are going to be upgraded. If not, it'll hit capacity in a couple of years, instead of five or so.

cython · 02-12-2018 3:06am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Was there not issues crossing O'Connell bridge with them being too long when stopped? Realistically they should have gone double decker for more capacity instead.

I think there was one instance of this causing an issue, and it stemmed from a taxi stopping a yellow box and blocking the luas. Outside of that kind of thing, the traffic flows are sequenced to accommodate

zom wrote: »

I may be wrong but I have strange feeling they limited use of 55m Luases during rush hours (green line). I had no luck to see long Luases in the mornings or evenings recently, but it is pretty easy to spot one in the middle of a day (working days).

Don't think so TBH, I get the Luas between Harcourt and Broombridge daily, and fairy regularly I'm on a tram numbered 5027 or greater (which means a 55m tram)

goingnowhere · 02-12-2018 3:36am

All new trams are 55m, the remaining 5000 series will be upgraded starting 2019

All trams on the Green line will be 55m once this is completed

L1011 · 02-12-2018 4:00am

The few 55m trams we have fit on the bridge. The length was specified.

.G. · 02-12-2018 11:05am

The current ones regularly get stuck coming from Hawkins st onto college green and block the roads as a result so longer ones won't be causing any more hassle than the current ones do! Friday evening one was stuck there so long that the Luas coming down the line after it caught up with it so we had two in a row at the college green stop.

devnull · 02-12-2018 12:12pm

There are still more trams on order, 8 I believe.

KD345 · 02-12-2018 7:54pm

devnull wrote: »

There are still more trams on order, 8 I believe.

That’s correct. There are 8 new 55m trams on order and an extension planned for the original 26 x 5000 series trams on the green line. This will require an extension to the Sandyford Depot.

This was all announced in 2017 but I’m not sure what stage things are at.

https://merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/Releases/Minister_Ross_gives_Green_Light_to_€100m_Green_Line_Project.html

KD345 · 02-12-2018 8:16pm

L1011 wrote: »

The few 55m trams we have fit on the bridge. The length was specified.

They don’t. The 55m trams need a clear signal to cross the Rosie Hackett and O’Connell Bridges. If the trams stop on the bridge they block the traffic on the quays.

tabbey · 13-02-2019 9:58pm

For several months the 55m trams (5027 - 5033) were used less intensively than the other trams. But since the new year they have been utilised as much as their older siblings.
The exception was 5033, which since delivery, generally lurked in Sandyford in the same siding. It appeared to have some problem. In the past week it has been earning its living, so hopefully its issue has been resolved.

The other 5000 class trams are due to get the additional two segments, starting next month I understand. Presumably the extra segments will be delivered over many months.

The depot extension has been slowly proceeding over the past six months, but hopefully should be complete soon.

A few trams, both 3000 class and 4000 class, remain on the Green line, on loan from the Red line. Presumably they will be repatriated after the eight new trams are delivered.

L1011 · 13-02-2019 10:17pm

KD345 wrote: »

They don’t. The 55m trams need a clear signal to cross the Rosie Hackett and O’Connell Bridges. If the trams stop on the bridge they block the traffic on the quays.

I'm getting 60m for the tram island on O'Connell Bridge and 65m on the Rosie Hackett, that is using OSM data so not guaranteed to be correct. The 55m was ordered for a reason - 60m was the normal next Alstom size; and the infamous "tram blocks traffic on first day!" headline was because a taxi was in the way.

highdef · 14-02-2019 12:17pm

I did some measurements using Google Earth and got more or less bang on 55m from the edge of each yellow box lane marking on either side of the river for O'Connell Bridge. Rosie Hackett is similar however in both cases, a tram stopped on either bridge results in pedestrians being unable to cross across the width of either bridge in a safe manner, as all pedestrian crossings are blocked by the 55m tram stopped on the bridge.

Having said that, I can only assume that the traffic light signalling always ensures that pedestrians never get a green light to cross when a 55m tram is stopped on either bridge. Unfortunately, lots of people are stupid and/or impatient and will still walk out in front of, or behind the stopped tram and put themselves in danger of being hit by other traffic.....but that's a different topic altogether!

Jamie2k9 · 14-02-2019 1:20pm

highdef wrote: »

I did some measurements using Google Earth and got more or less bang on 55m from the edge of each yellow box lane marking on either side of the river for O'Connell Bridge. Rosie Hackett is similar however in both cases, a tram stopped on either bridge results in pedestrians being unable to cross across the width of either bridge in a safe manner, as all pedestrian crossings are blocked by the 55m tram stopped on the bridge.

Having said that, I can only assume that the traffic light signalling always ensures that pedestrians never get a green light to cross when a 55m tram is stopped on either bridge. Unfortunately, lots of people are stupid and/or impatient and will still walk out in front of, or behind the stopped tram and put themselves in danger of being hit by other traffic.....but that's a different topic altogether!

If the 55m trams are stopped on OC Bridge pedestrians get a geen light and one lane on quays is blocked (no traffic moving on S Quays anyway). Its rare they are stopped but only happens on OC Bridge. Not saw any stopped on Hackett.

On a general note beleive new trams have given trouble in the last few weeks again.

GM228 · 14-02-2019 1:38pm

O'Connell Bridge is officially 43.8m long between abutments.

Interestingly it is 46.2m wide between parapets and apparently the only road bridge in Europe which has a longer width than lenght, that's correct it is not a perfect square contrary to popular belief.

Carawaystick · 15-02-2019 12:11am

GM228 wrote: »

O'Connell Bridge is officially 43.8m long between abutments.

Interestingly it is 46.2m wide between parapets and apparently the only road bridge in Europe which has a longer width than lenght, that's correct it is not a perfect square contrary to popular belief.

There are loads of bridges wider than they are long, I learnt to swim backstroke under a bridge 3' long and 16' wide for example

GM228 · 15-02-2019 10:54am

Carawaystick wrote: »

There are loads of bridges wider than they are long, I learnt to swim backstroke under a bridge 3' long and 16' wide for example

I did say "road bridge" as in one which carries traffic, I have read this before in an architectural book and also found mention of it here:

https://lovindublin.com/feature/burning-bridges

O'Connell Bridge

Contrary to popular belief, O'Connell bridge isn't a perfect square, it's wider than it is long by a mere five metres, and therefore it's the only traffic bridge in Europe wider than it is long.

Perhaps it is no more than a myth, but it's one which has found it's way into some reputable sources.

antoinolachtnai · 17-02-2019 10:07pm

Maybe the track could be reconfigured a little to allow trams to be parked diagonal-ways?

I have reason to believe that these are the longest trams Alstom ever built.

Lengthening more than three trams won’t really have any effect on the crowding at the trams arriving into town at the peak time. It will improve the capacity in theory certainly and stop the problem expanding beyond the peak. But it won’t get rid of the pinch.

zom · 04-04-2019 11:08pm

tabbey wrote: »

For several months the 55m trams (5027 - 5033) were used less intensively than the other trams. But since the new year they have been utilised as much as their older siblings.

The other 5000 class trams are due to get the additional two segments, starting next month I understand. Presumably the extra segments will be delivered over many months.

A few trams, both 3000 class and 4000 class, remain on the Green line, on loan from the Red line. Presumably they will be repatriated after the eight new trams are delivered.

Any update on 55m luas upgrade? Any idea of number being upgraded first?
Also when 8 new trams are suppose to be delivered?

LeinsterDub · 04-04-2019 11:20pm

zom wrote: »

Any update on 55m luas upgrade? Any idea of number being upgraded first?
Also when 8 new trams are suppose to be delivered?

There are a number of them in service at the moment. They are all due to be upgraded by the end of the year. Not sure about the new trams

zom · 04-04-2019 11:24pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

There are a number of them in service at the moment. They are all due to be upgraded by the end of the year. Not sure about the new trams

Is there in Sandyford depot? Do you know side-numbers of trams in upgrade ??

LeinsterDub · 04-04-2019 11:32pm

zom wrote: »

Is there in Sandyford depot? Do you know side-numbers of trams in upgrade ??

What do you mean about the depot?
5033 is the only one I recall off the top of my head

Jamie2k9 · 05-04-2019 8:39am

5027-5034.

zom · 06-04-2019 10:08pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What do you mean about the depot?
5033 is the only one I recall off the top of my head

Apologies, I was wondering if 55m upgrade to current 5000-s will be made in Sandyford depot - but I presume it is not big enough. I was also wondering which old 5000-s will be upgraded first as I haven't seen trams 5026 or 5025 recently (but surely I could be wrong)

Jamie2k9 · 07-04-2019 2:09pm

zom wrote: »

Apologies, I was wondering if 55m upgrade to current 5000-s will be made in Sandyford depot - but I presume it is not big enough. I was also wondering which old 5000-s will be upgraded first as I haven't seen trams 5026 or 5025 recently (but surely I could be wrong)

Depot was extended last year.

tabbey · 27-05-2019 12:13am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Depot was extended last year.

During the last year, slowly. It is just about finished in the last couple of weeks.

The additional segments for lengthening the existing 5000 class trams have been coming in the last week or so. 5021 is now 55m long, it has been sitting in Sandyford.

The new segments are delivered through the gate from Brewery Road and shunted in the depot by a Unilok (tractor/loco).

zom · 28-05-2019 11:22pm

tabbey wrote: »

The additional segments for lengthening the existing 5000 class trams have been coming in the last week or so. 5021 is now 55m long, it has been sitting in Sandyford.

The new segments are delivered through the gate from Brewery Road and shunted in the depot by a Unilok (tractor/loco).

Thank you for your update. When do you think can we see new 55 upgraded trams like 5021 on tracks?

Sandyford depot 3D view from Google Maps - beginning of extension jobs, probably mid 2018 :

average_runner · 29-05-2019 1:12pm

L1011 wrote: »

I'm getting 60m for the tram island on O'Connell Bridge and 65m on the Rosie Hackett, that is using OSM data so not guaranteed to be correct. The 55m was ordered for a reason - 60m was the normal next Alstom size; and the infamous "tram blocks traffic on first day!" headline was because a taxi was in the way.

The luas constantly blocks O'Connell bridge. I work beside and see it everyday.
The luas goes straight into yellow boxes even if its not clear on the other side and breaks the pedestrian lights also.

donvito99 · 29-05-2019 1:29pm

average_runner wrote: »

The luas constantly blocks O'Connell bridge. I work beside and see it everyday.
The luas goes straight into yellow boxes even if its not clear on the other side and breaks the pedestrian lights also.

But the reason the path isn't clear is because someone else I.e. a taxi man has blocked the path.

LeChienMefiant · 29-05-2019 4:26pm

donvito99 wrote: »

But the reason the path isn't clear is because someone else I.e. a taxi man has blocked the path.

And we don't enforce traffic law in Ireland. So we're straight out of options?

GM228 · 29-05-2019 5:11pm

average_runner wrote: »

The luas goes straight into yellow boxes even if its not clear on the other side and breaks the pedestrian lights also.

Yellow boxs and pedestrian lights don't apply to the LUAS.

MOH · 30-05-2019 3:50pm

GM228 wrote: »

Yellow boxs and pedestrian lights don't apply to the LUAS.

Do they apply to buses? Genuine question, one of the biggest offenders for blocking pedestrian crossings around the city is buses. If they're exempt would explain a lot.

(sorry for the off-topic question)

LeChienMefiant · 30-05-2019 3:53pm

MOH wrote: »

Do they apply to buses? Genuine question, one of the biggest offenders for blocking pedestrian crossings around the city is buses. If they're exempt would explain a lot.

(sorry for the off-topic question)

Trans operate on rail signals. Buses operate on traffic signals.

GM228 · 30-05-2019 4:23pm

MOH wrote: »

Do they apply to buses? Genuine question, one of the biggest offenders for blocking pedestrian crossings around the city is buses. If they're exempt would explain a lot.

(sorry for the off-topic question)

Buses can lawfully enter a yellow box even when the exit is not clear when exiting a bus lane.

As regards a crossing, obeying traffic lights aside there is no prohibition on stopping on a pedestrian crossing.

Jamie2k9 · 30-05-2019 5:10pm

Bus drivers are a problem blocking College Green. You have some good drivers who don't pass lights if they will block a yellow box and the Luas and others who just block it.

highdef · 30-05-2019 5:20pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You have some good drivers who don't pass lights if they will block a yellow box and the Luas and others who just block it.

Is it possible for a LUAS tram to lock a yellow box due to a fault of the driver or is the blocked yellow box a knock-on due to a road vehicle blocking a yellow box and not allowing the tram to pass unhindered?

Stephen15 · 30-05-2019 5:24pm

highdef wrote: »

Is it possible for a LUAS tram to lock a yellow box due to a fault of the driver or is the blocked yellow box a knock-on due to a road vehicle blocking a yellow box and not allowing the tram to pass unhindered?

Yellow boxes don't apply to the Luas full stop

highdef · 30-05-2019 11:37pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yellow boxes don't apply to the Luas full stop

Your opinion from observation or legally?

Jamie2k9 · 30-05-2019 11:42pm

highdef wrote: »

Is it possible for a LUAS tram to lock a yellow box due to a fault of the driver or is the blocked yellow box a knock-on due to a road vehicle blocking a yellow box and not allowing the tram to pass unhindered?

It is potentially possible however very rare. Its usually down to other road users and those who block boxes instead of waiting until clear hold everyone up longer as the lights will continually re-set until Luas get clearance.

My concern is once the full fleet is extended box blocking will likely cause significant disruption and College Green could well be at a standstill like when LCC opened.

devnull · 30-05-2019 11:49pm

highdef wrote: »

Your opinion from observation or legally?

Yellow boxes are for road traffic, traffic lights are for road traffic, tram signals and signs for trams are for trams.

Stephen15 · 30-05-2019 11:59pm

devnull wrote: »

Yellow boxes are for road traffic, traffic lights are for road traffic, tram signals and signs for trams are for trams.

Exactly just as in the same way a yellow box at a level crossing wouldn't apply to a train

grimbergen · 31-05-2019 12:48am

Are there any of the newer extended trams (from most recent) upgrades in use yet?

average_runner · 31-05-2019 12:20pm

donvito99 wrote: »

But the reason the path isn't clear is because someone else I.e. a taxi man has blocked the path.

But its a joint usage lane. So cars can be there

average_runner · 31-05-2019 12:21pm

devnull wrote: »

Yellow boxes are for road traffic, traffic lights are for road traffic, tram signals and signs for trams are for trams.

Luas has to obey pedestrian lights also

loyatemu · 31-05-2019 12:31pm

GM228 wrote: »

As regards a crossing, obeying traffic lights aside there is no prohibition on stopping on a pedestrian crossing.

this is a bit of an oversight in ROTR - there should be a prohibition on blocking pedestrian crossings, either that or they should put yellow boxes on all crossings. The crossings on the north quays are often blocked by coaches (Fingal Express are the worst offenders).

GM228 · 31-05-2019 12:40pm

average_runner wrote: »

Luas has to obey pedestrian lights also

The laws regarding traffic lights (and yellow boxs and most other traffic rules) apply to mechanically propelled vehicles and cycles, they specifically exclude the LUAS.

tabbey · 31-05-2019 11:27pm

zom wrote: »

Thank you for your update. When do you think can we see new 55 upgraded trams like 5021 on tracks?

Sandyford depot 3D view from Google Maps - beginning of extension jobs, probably mid 2018 :

5021 has been in Sandyford depot since it was extended, but has moved siding, perhaps it has been out on the running line on test. Last I saw it a couple of days ago, a technician was working on it.

I have not seen it working yet, but it could be any day.

zom · 15-06-2019 9:55pm

tabbey wrote: »

5021 has been in Sandyford depot since it was extended, but has moved siding, perhaps it has been out on the running line on test. Last I saw it a couple of days ago, a technician was working on it.

I have not seen it working yet, but it could be any day.

Is number 5023 another extended one? I saw it yesterday and as I am bit tram-spotting recently, I counted bogied sections and I got 5 - but I coud be wrong (it was on the move)?

devnull · 17-06-2019 11:15pm

Confirmation has come from the NTA today that the overall project of tram extensions for the Green Line is now expected to be finished by the end of September 2021 on a phased basis.

The 8 additional 54m trams are due to arrive by September 2021 also.

Luas upgrade to 55m

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