General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

AndrewJRenko · 03-09-2019 9:15pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Sure, why not :rolleyes:

Well, because that would be breaking the law.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

He should not have been trying to bully her at all. If he had a personal chip on his shoulder he should have pursued it that way not using the office for weight. Her remarks were in the public domain, he didn't need use any confidentiality, no more than he needed to use official channels.

There was no bullying and no 'personal chip'. She didn't say he had BO and bad teeth. She had a go at him about how he was doing his job, so he replied with a factual response and an offer of mediation.

Her remarks may have been in the public domain but her address wasn't. So how is his solicitor supposed to deliver a letter without the CMO breaching confidentiality?

Matt Barrett wrote: »

And again, an FYI to Simon might have been warranted. The department is poorly run IMO and Harris not often in the loop.

It's great with hindsight to say he should have kept the Minister involved. Have you any idea how many contacts staff in the Dept are getting each week? If he has to keep the Minister in the loop on every such contact, the Minister isn't going to be doing much Ministering.

is_that_so · 04-09-2019 8:36am

Seems like we will have another windfall on corporate taxation - more likely we hope to buttress us against the ill-winds of Brexit than being used for the usual giveaways.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/exchequer-boost-for-government-ahead-of-budget-2020-1.4006610

James Brown · 04-09-2019 2:10pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Seems like we will have another windfall on corporate taxation - more likely we hope to buttress us against the ill-winds of Brexit than being used for the usual giveaways.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/exchequer-boost-for-government-ahead-of-budget-2020-1.4006610

I'd imagine there'll be a few high profile giveaways for the great unwashed but nothing of substance. It's clear FG think everything is going well and will stay the course. I expect things will implode and we'll get another round of FF before long.

is_that_so · 04-09-2019 3:54pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I'd imagine there'll be a few high profile giveaways for the great unwashed but nothing of substance. It's clear FG think everything is going well and will stay the course. I expect things will implode and we'll get another round of FF before long.

Pensioners seem to be the only ones. Tax cuts really should be out this year but I reckon capital spending and post-Brexit support will take up a good chunk of the fiscal space.

nf2k · 04-09-2019 7:09pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Pensioners seem to be the only ones. Tax cuts really should be out this year but I reckon capital spending and post-Brexit support will take up a good chunk of the fiscal space.

A higher carbon tax was meant to have been introduced but is looking like it will be left out for another year?

is_that_so · 04-09-2019 7:19pm

nf2k wrote: »

A higher carbon tax was meant to have been introduced but is looking like it will be left out for another year?

Not sure about that but it is a tax. Usually the Budget is leaking everywhere by now. I reckon Paschal is watching all of this bedlam for as long as he can before picking out a budget!

James Brown · 04-09-2019 7:30pm

It'll be interesting to see what sweet deals get snook out while Bexit takes the lion's share of the headlines.

is_that_so · 05-09-2019 9:13am

Thought I would drop this one in here. Some of the suggested fallout from Brexit and it seems very grim. Up to 10,000 job losses in 3 months. Definitely no scope for any Budget giveaways with that.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ministers-taken-aback-by-predicted-scale-of-no-deal-brexit-damage-1.4008114

Idbatterim · 05-09-2019 9:19am

Could they defer the circus budget until the circus brexit is sorted ? All this talk of a budget , that makes as good as no difference to anyone financially...

is_that_so · 05-09-2019 9:30am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Could they defer the circus budget until the circus brexit is sorted ? All this talk of a budget , that makes as good as no difference to anyone financially...

Has to be done as financial year is from January-December and also to fit in with EU budget dates.

Idbatterim · 05-09-2019 9:33am

is_that_so wrote: »

Has to be done as financial year is from January-December and also to fit in with EU budget dates.

I’m aware our budget is vetted by Europe. This budget will make no difference in a positive way , but if **** hits the fan , could make things a lot worse !

is_that_so · 05-09-2019 9:39am

Idbatterim wrote: »

I’m aware our budget is vetted by Europe. This budget will make no difference in a positive way , but if **** hits the fan , could make things a lot worse !

Yeah, I think all bets may be off on any type of pre-election Budget. Prudent is the only route IMO.

Dytalus · 05-09-2019 9:40am

Idbatterim wrote: »

I’m aware our budget is vetted by Europe. This budget will make no difference in a positive way , but if **** hits the fan , could make things a lot worse !

Things are always going to get worse if the **** hits the fan.

But we need a budget to allocate spending. The current allocations run out at the end of the current accounting year. We can't just not decide where collected taxes will be spent. We can be cautious and conservative about it (and should be), but we can't hold off on it altogether.

Idbatterim · 05-09-2019 10:01am

They need to tackle the insane idiotic anti enterprise marginal tax rate, not throw hundreds of millions more into an already obscene welfare state. Pay down debt and spend on infrastructure.

is_that_so · 05-09-2019 10:06am

Idbatterim wrote: »

They need to tackle the insane idiotic anti enterprise marginal tax rate, not throw hundreds of millions more into an already obscene welfare state. Pay down debt and spend on infrastructure.

The last one of these is probably going to happen. The tax rate change is probably off the table in any meaningful way.

Loafing Oaf · 05-09-2019 11:59am

Idbatterim wrote: »

throw hundreds of millions more into an already obscene welfare state.

Well that's what they're going to do, like any government would, if they can afford it at all, because that's what the public want...

Hotblack Desiato · 05-09-2019 12:43pm

I hate this thing of giving pensioners, regardless of means, across the board increases every year. It's simply vote-buying.

Meanwhile working families struggle but they throw them a few euro a week at best.

christy c · 05-09-2019 12:58pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I hate this thing of giving pensioners, regardless of means, across the board increases every year. It's simply vote-buying.

Same as. It's so they can say they are looking after the "most vulnerable" or whatever the sound bite is. Plus hope they capture the grey vote.

To make matters worse, with the pension time bomb approaching (ageing population, lower numbers in the workforce), the last thing we should be doing is increasing it across the board without reference to inflation.

is_that_so · 12-09-2019 3:38pm

So we seem to have a preferred date for next GE - May 2020. In the context of Brexit it seems like a sensible suggestion.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/0912/1075493-election/

Zubeneschamali · 13-09-2019 1:17pm

is_that_so wrote: »

[May election]In the context of Brexit it seems like a sensible suggestion.

Hmm, UK election in November/December, new UK Government January after coalition/confidence and supply talks, request a 1 year extension to make room for a 2nd referendum, yes, May looks like a fairly quiet time for an Irish election.

James Brown · 13-09-2019 2:07pm

Will be lots of distraction. Likely a FF win with a reversal of the current deal. Don't expect anything to change unless Brexit causes it or their economy crashes, possibly Brexit related.

Zubeneschamali · 13-09-2019 2:37pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Likely a FF win

St. Jude apostle of hope!

James Brown · 13-09-2019 2:45pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

St. Jude apostle of hope!

It's a lose lose, either way.

Loafing Oaf · 13-09-2019 4:04pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Will be lots of distraction. Likely a FF win with a reversal of the current deal.

I wonder would some in FG quietly prefer this outcome. Of course they want to be back leading the government, but if they came back narrowly ahead of FF again, it's possible that FF grassroots would rebel at the prospect of propping up another FG minority government and push for a deal with SF. Whereas with FF finishing narrowly ahead of FG, you're pretty much guaranteed a reversal of the current arrangement. And FG membership would see it as the 'gentlemanly' thing to return the favour...

James Brown · 13-09-2019 5:34pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I wonder would some in FG quietly prefer this outcome. Of course they want to be back leading the government, but if they came back narrowly ahead of FF again, it's possible that FF grassroots would rebel at the prospect of propping up another FG minority government and push for a deal with SF. Whereas with FF finishing narrowly ahead of FG, you're pretty much guaranteed a reversal of the current arrangement. And FG membership would see it as the 'gentlemanly' thing to return the favour...

You might be right. I don't think there's any political passion on policy and ethics. It's about getting in and getting your way. So losing just means sitting it out until next time. There'll be no bright new era from either. More of the same. FF might build some social housing.

James Brown · 16-09-2019 2:08pm

I can solve the housing crisis. Well I know a man who can.
I've been told numerous times that the state/LA's paying for builds to use as social, (to be rented out based on income) or affordable housing (to be sold at profit) wouldn't work because it is so expensive to build there's no money in it.
Well this man here is due to be making profit off public land. We should hire him to government post haste.

Developer to earn €67m profit from public land site

Developer Bartra Capital is set to make around €67m in profit after it takes over the publicly owned site at O'Devaney Gardens, develops it and sells the property.

Bartra, which is also behind the controversial co-living development in Dún Laoghaire, has been chosen as the preferred bidder to redevelop the site in north Dublin.

Dublin City Council, whose deputy chief executive Brendan Kenny has insisted the site is not being "given away" to the private developer, has refused to say how much it stands to make from the deal.

The company has also declined to specify how much it has estimated it will make.

A Bartra spokesman said: "The procurement process is not yet complete. There are many hurdles still to be completed. As the preferred bidder our plan was deemed to most economically advantageous by the city council."

However, it is understood the developer stands to make tens of millions on the back of the public asset.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/developer-to-earn-67m-profit-from-public-land-site-38496638.html

Not to mention gaining 'preferred bidder' status despite a shady record

blanch152 · 16-09-2019 3:23pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Not to mention gaining 'preferred bidder' status despite a shady record

You should complain to the OGP if you think there was something wrong with the procurement process.

beggars_bush · 17-09-2019 1:48pm

What are we going to spend the 13 billion (+interest) on lads?

that bridge to the UK might be handy

markodaly · 17-09-2019 2:10pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You should complain to the OGP if you think there was something wrong with the procurement process.

Wasnt the deal signed off under the previous DCC, which had SF as the largest party in the council?

This may warrant a debate, but it has nothing to do with the government and everything to do with DCC.

James Brown · 17-09-2019 2:33pm

markodaly wrote: »

Wasnt the deal signed off under the previous DCC, which had SF as the largest party in the council?

This may warrant a debate, but it has nothing to do with the government and everything to do with DCC.

Funnily enough it cites DCC a number of times. A comment on local government with a nod to national issue. Nothing to try shut down, mostly on DCC alright Marko. Got a dig in at SF though, kudos.

James Brown · 17-09-2019 2:34pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

What are we going to spend the 13 billion (+interest) on lads?

that bridge to the UK might be handy

If we are forced to take it it will go down some hole for sure.

L1011 · 17-09-2019 3:00pm

Other countries will be looking for transfer taxes from us if we take it. Don't expect it to ever end up in the exchequer.

Mongfinder General · 17-09-2019 4:22pm

Fine Gael's budget is rumored to contain nothing for Paye slaves and oaps. So unless that changes I'd expect a big swing to FF.

Zubeneschamali · 17-09-2019 4:35pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Fine Gael's budget is rumored to contain nothing for Paye slaves and oaps. So unless that changes I'd expect a big swing to FF.

They've already said its a No Deal Brexit budget, so no giveaways, keep the exchequer filled to deal with the fallout in case No Deal happens.

I dare FF to call for a giveaway, remind everyone who we are dealing with and how they haven't changed since the 70s.

James Brown · 17-09-2019 5:06pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They've already said its a No Deal Brexit budget, so no giveaways, keep the exchequer filled to deal with the fallout in case No Deal happens.

I dare FF to call for a giveaway, remind everyone who we are dealing with and how they haven't changed since the 70s.

Fiscal conservatism ahead of time will be a head sell.

Podge_irl · 17-09-2019 5:30pm

Pragmatism is always a hard sell. It's pretty much the single biggest issue with democratic politics.

Zubeneschamali · 17-09-2019 7:09pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Fiscal conservatism ahead of time will be a head sell.

Which is how FF keep winning.

But their last almighty blowout is too fresh in our minds for them to start helicoptering into the Galway Tent just yet.

is_that_so · 17-09-2019 7:13pm

L1011 wrote: »

Other countries will be looking for transfer taxes from us if we take it. Don't expect it to ever end up in the exchequer.

Yeah, nowt for us. Most of it is likely to end up in the US. This stage of the process may take at least 4-5 years and then probably the best part of a decade to address where it belongs.

James Brown · 17-09-2019 7:32pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Which is how FF keep winning.

But their last almighty blowout is too fresh in our minds for them to start helicoptering into the Galway Tent just yet.

It's a combination of things. FG can't get the formula right, otherwise they'd be at same. I do not believe FG are willing to lose an election for the greater good.

Podge_irl · 17-09-2019 7:42pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Yeah, nowt for us. Most of it is likely to end up in the US. This stage of the process may take at least 4-5 years and then probably the best part of a decade to address where it belongs.

Why would it end up in the US? It will end up in various EU countries.

Kermit.de.frog · 17-09-2019 9:14pm

If the Irish people put back in Fianna Fáil who destroyed this country and was forced to surrender it's sovereignty to the IMF then they deserve everything coming to them.

In any other civilised country Fianna Fáil would not exist after what happened here.

lola85 · 17-09-2019 9:19pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If the Irish people put back in Fianna Fáil who destroyed this country and was forced to surrender it's sovereignty to the IMF then they deserve everything coming to them.

In any other civilised country Fianna Fáil would not exist after what happened here.

Another one I heard the other day from FFs legacy is why we have the highest morgtage interest rates in the EU.

The banks have to have a certain amount of capital after the last crash strictly imposed by the central bank.

The amount of things that is FFs fault from the recession that people don’t realise.

Household charge.
Property tax.
USC.
High interest rates.
The housing crisis.

Anyway they will be back in and all of forgiven.

Zubeneschamali · 17-09-2019 10:10pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

FG can't get the formula right, otherwise they'd be at same.

The only FG leader to join the FF style party was Enda, who saw Baldy Noonan get destroyed for being a killjoy. But he still couldn't win until FF blew everything up - he might as well have told the truth and not promised to keep the party going.

I don't know if Varadkar has any backbone on the subject, he hasn't been tested yet.

is_that_so · 18-09-2019 9:35am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why would it end up in the US? It will end up in various EU countries.

It is US money that would eventually be repatriated. Other countries have claimed they are owed money but they'll have a very long rocky road to prove it.

Podge_irl · 18-09-2019 1:32pm

is_that_so wrote: »

It is US money that would eventually be repatriated. Other countries have claimed they are owed money but they'll have a very long rocky road to prove it.

They are taxes deemed owed in the EU. Whether or not money would be subsequently taxed if repatriated to the US is irrelevant, this money will go to Ireland immediately if the judgement goes that way and then other EU countries will claim bits and pieces of it. The US has no claim on EU taxes.

Hotblack Desiato · 18-09-2019 1:48pm

Equally, other EU countries have no legal right to claim our corporation tax.

The Apple judgment is ridiculous and the appeal will carry.

is_that_so · 18-09-2019 1:55pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

They are taxes deemed owed in the EU. Whether or not money would be subsequently taxed if repatriated to the US is irrelevant, this money will go to Ireland immediately if the judgement goes that way and then other EU countries will claim bits and pieces of it. The US has no claim on EU taxes.

No, they are taxes owed to Ireland based on how Apple is set up in Europe and nobody else. That's what the judgement said. Other EU countries want a slice of it and think they can get it despite not having any tax laws that will allow them to do so.
Revenue deemed Apple to be tax compliant under its rules so it had no further claims on money Apple owned. Apple being a US corporation can repatriate it and yes it would be taxed in the US.
It'll be the guts of 10 years before it's resolved anyway, longer if Apple can stretch it out.

Jim2007 · 18-09-2019 2:11pm

is_that_so wrote: »

No, they are taxes owed to Ireland based on how Apple is set up in Europe and nobody else.

It is taxes the EU deem is owed to Ireland.

is_that_so wrote: »

That's what the judgement said.

It is not a judgement, it is the decision of a commissioner, subject to a judicial review.

is_that_so wrote: »

Other EU countries want a slice of it and think they can get it despite not having any tax laws that will allow them to do so.

No other member state has laid claim to it, nor could they.

is_that_so wrote: »

Revenue deemed Apple to be tax compliant under its rules so it had no further claims on money Apple owned. Apple being a US corporation can repatriate it and yes it would be taxed in the US.

According to the double taxation treaty, this is not the case.

is_that_so wrote: »

It'll be the guts of 10 years before it's resolved anyway, longer if Apple can stretch it out.

It is not in Apple's interests to do so as they do not have access to the reserves and it hinders their tax planning to have such a major issue undecided.

beggars_bush · 18-09-2019 2:16pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

It is taxes the EU deem is owed to Ireland.

It is not a judgement, it is the decision of a commissioner, subject to a judicial review.

No other member state has laid claim to it, nor could they.

According to the double taxation treaty, this is not the case.

It is not in Apple's interests to do so as they do not have access to the reserves and it hinders their tax planning to have such a major issue undecided.

Its not a tax case

Its a state aid case

is_that_so · 18-09-2019 5:58pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

It is taxes the EU deem is owed to Ireland.

It is not a judgement, it is the decision of a commissioner, subject to a judicial review.

No other member state has laid claim to it, nor could they.

According to the double taxation treaty, this is not the case.

It is not in Apple's interests to do so as they do not have access to the reserves and it hinders their tax planning to have such a major issue undecided.

Why in God's name can't you write paragraphs?

Apart from being next to impossible to read I'm really not sure what point you're making seeing as I've made most of these points already anyway. What treaties are you on about? Some of the them have been renewed and the Apple setup allowed them to recognise Ireland as a profit base.

General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

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