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Tenants sublet house without permission

  • 06-02-2019 11:45am
    #1
    pjackson
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭


    I rented a house to a couple in January 2018. The rent has been paid on time and the house is being kept well. However I have just discovered that the couple brought 2 additional people into the house a number of months ago. My belief is that they intended to do so from the outset as the rent was not sustainable for them. At the time of letting the house, I asked the couple whether the rent was affordable and they indicated that it was. So they are in breach of the lease. My thinking on the next steps is to meet with all 4 people in the house and to indicated that I want to regularise the situation with all parties signing a new lease. I believe one of the tenants (a student) may leave in May when his course finishes and I am thinking that from that point, I will tell them that I want a maximum of 3 in the (3 bedroom) house. My original ideas was to get 3 professional people sharing the house.

    Any advice would be appreciated particularly from anyone who may have had a similar situation as a landlord.

    Thanks in advance.


«13

Comments

  • #2
    Anthonylfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 282 ✭✭Anthonylfc


    tell them the maintainance agreement was for 2 people not 4 so they must foot the repairs . wear and tear


  • #3
    ArthurG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭ArthurG


    pjackson wrote: »
    .... The rent has been paid on time and the house is being kept well.....

    How much of a stink do you want to kick up given this?


  • #4
    cruizer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    I kind of agree with ArthurG if they are paying the rent and keeping the house well you may not want to do too much.
    If you set up a new lease with each of the tenants you are having to deal with different people and it could be more hassle.
    I can understand you wanting some more rent as there is more wear and tear on the house mind.


  • #5
    ct5amr2ig1nfhp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭ct5amr2ig1nfhp


    I think it is very wrong when landlords have to tiptoe around tenants that are breaking their lease conditions.

    As a matter of interest, how did you find out they had allowed two additional tenants live in the house?


  • #6
    Doop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Doop


    Anthonylfc wrote: »
    tell them the maintainance agreement was for 2 people not 4 so they must foot the repairs . wear and tear

    What document is this? and who has a copy?


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  • #7
    The Student
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭The Student


    The tenants are in breach of their lease. There is double the wear and tear on the fixtures and fittings. I would advise them that the sub tenants need to move out.


  • #8
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Does your insurance cover 4 people or only the original 2?


  • #9
    pjackson
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭pjackson


    Thanks for the responses. 'Re the question as to how we found out about the extra tenants met them on an annual boiler service. Insurance is OK I think - doesn't specify the number of tenants. I think I will go with telling them that we need to get to 3 people in the house but given them till May June to do so.


  • #10
    crkcvnirl
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭crkcvnirl


    Assuming you've named the 2 tenants on the original lease they are then in breach of that lease. You can....

    1) Serve a termination notice.
    2) Have them all sign a new lease, update the RTB details, move on and make regular inspection visits every 2 or 3 months.


    Best of luck.


  • #11
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    tell them they are in breach of their lease.
    tell them you intend to double the rent, if they wish to stay. give them a few days to decide.


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  • #12
    crkcvnirl
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭crkcvnirl


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    tell them they are in breach of their lease.
    tell them you intend to double the rent, if they wish to stay. give them a few days to decide.


    We'd all love to be able to double rental income, but this is not great advice. Especially if the property is in a rent control zone, it would be just a little illegal!!! Tenants can make a claim and get overpayment and a possible additional payment back from the LL.


  • #13
    Always Tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    tell them they are in breach of their lease.
    tell them you intend to double the rent, if they wish to stay. give them a few days to decide.

    yeah except then the landlord would be in breach. the tenants breaching the lease doesn't give him carte blanche over the situation. he can't raise the rent on the two that are there. he can insist that the non signed tenants move out or get them to sign up to a new lease. if he wants to charge double then it's basically costing the original couple the same as before so maybe they can't afford it and all 4 move out.
    then the LL would just have to readvertise it and do viewings again. if it gets rented to another couple the rent is going to have to be the same. so what's the point going nuclear and forcing them out when the rent is being paid on time?


  • #14
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    crkcvnirl wrote: »
    We'd all love to be able to double rental income, but this is not great advice. Especially if the property is in a rent control zone, it would be just a little illegal!!! Tenants can make a claim and get overpayment and a possible additional payment back from the LL.

    he doesn't have to follow through, just threaten ie give them the option, pay more rent or get their buddies to move out.
    no tenant likes the prospect of a looming rent increase, especially as they are currently breaching their lease agreement as is.
    every time the postman calls ....!


  • #15
    crkcvnirl
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭crkcvnirl


    crkcvnirl wrote: »
    Assuming you've named the 2 tenants on the original lease they are then in breach of that lease. You can....

    1) Serve a termination notice.
    2) Have them all sign a new lease, update the RTB details, move on and make regular inspection visits every 2 or 3 months.


    Best of luck.


    Hi Pjackson
    Run with above advise or similar and just ignore suggestions about threatening to up rent, that "nuclear" option does not exist.



    Tenants that look after a property are worth keeping.



    Best of luck.


  • #16
    emeldc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,597 ✭✭✭emeldc


    Op if they are looking after the place and paying the rent I'd be slow to bring two more people in to the legal framework. If the original couple decide to move out it might not suit you to keep on the other two. I'm not sure if they would have any legal right to stay there but I'd be a lot quicker to change the locks on someone that I had no financial or written agreement with. Try and consider every scenario and how you might deal with it.


  • #17
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I'm curious, if the tenants sublet for for than the market rate who is then breaking the RPZ.

    In the the OP situation he has not vetted the two new tenants.
    If the original two leave, he is left with tenants he didn't vet and who he doesn't have a deposit from.
    The original two can claim their deposit not the 2nd couple.

    Very messy.


  • #18
    GGTrek
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 834 ✭✭✭GGTrek


    emeldc wrote: »
    Op if they are looking after the place and paying the rent I'd be slow to bring two more people in to the legal framework. If the original couple decide to move out it might not suit you to keep on the other two. I'm not sure if they would have any legal right to stay there but I'd be a lot quicker to change the locks on someone that I had no financial or written agreement with. Try and consider every scenario and how you might deal with it.
    After 6 months of the LL knowing there are occupiers without terminating tenancies they have the legal right to request to stay and be treated as a tenant and not a licensee of the main tenants (ain't the RTA such a wonderful piece of ...?)


    I had twice the case of tenant illegally subletting. Once when I was a brand new and innocent landlord (ended up really badly with main tenant leaving and the other one causing a lot of problems and having to take to RTB to kick out). The second time I simply kicked out every single one of the smart-.... (they could afford but they wanted to save on my skin and were overcrowding the property). I do not provide fixed term tenancies of more than 3 months nowadays, so if tenants misbehave at the the 3 months they get termination notice without reason very quickly. Life is too short to deal with the antics of smart-...


    Biggest error of the OP was to question the tenants if they could afford the rent. If the OP knew the tenants could not afford given their paychecks or bank statements, then he/she should not have let the property to this particular set of tenants. It is part of the reference checking process, if the numbers do not add up then no letting.


    My suggestion if the OP's property is inside an RPZ (which leaves no flexibility to negotiate rent to cover additional wear&tear) is to terminate the tenancy for serious breach of lease and then look for tenants who can afford the rent. The current Irish tenancy law does not leave space for negotiations or to provide freebies to tenants (down the line it will seriously punish every LL doing good deeds).


  • #19
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,083 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    OP what problem are you actually trying to fix? Why is three poeple better than four?

    If you insist on only three tenants you mau go from having two couples who look after the house and pay the rent, to some other combination that don't and cause you a lot more trouble. Especially if you got three singles having frequent one night stands or even just a partner to stay for three night per week each, average occupancy could be higher than four.


  • #20
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    My view is that I dont care who lives there so long as the rent is paid and the place is kept well. I'm not in the business of micromanaging tenants.


  • #21
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    OP what problem are you actually trying to fix? Why is three poeple better than four?...

    That they broke the lease I assume.

    Are leases not important for you?


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  • #22
    rightmove
    Registered Users Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭rightmove


    Op if they are not playing by the rules you need to be concerned. It could be tip of the iceberg in long run


  • #23
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,310 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    The wisest move for the OP is to terminate the lease.


  • #24
    SusanC10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭SusanC10


    From a Tenant perspective here (albeit 15+ years ago).

    My Husband and I did this in Dublin before we were married while renting and saving for a Mortgage. We rented a 3 Bed House with 2 other friends. The Landlords were a retired couple who did not live in Dublin. They were looking for 3 Professionals and so 3 out of the 4 of us met them with my Husband and I omitting the fact that we were a couple.

    We could all afford one-third of the Rent. But for various reasons we were all saving. Husband & I took the largest en-suite room and the 4 of us split the Rent equally.

    Our friends were a married friend of my Husband whose wife lived their home in Cork and he was there Mon-Thurs and a friend of mine who spent most nights with her boyfriend at the time.

    We kept the place very well. The Landlords always gave notice when calling so we were prepared.

    My Husband and I were the first to leave that house and when we were meeting the Landlords for the last time, they told us that they knew from very early on about the 4th person. One of the neighbours had told them. But the Rent was paid on time and the house was very well looked after so they had decided not to say anything.


  • #25
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    The wisest move for the OP is to terminate the lease.


    a fine way to absolutely guarantee good tenants turning bad overnight. Like really, how exactly does anyone thing trying to evict them over this will play out? They go.. yes, we were bad and will take our punishment without any consequences? seriously like


  • #26
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    SusanC10 wrote: »
    From a Tenant perspective here (albeit 15+ years ago).

    My Husband and I did this in Dublin before we were married while renting and saving for a Mortgage. We rented a 3 Bed House with 2 other friends. The Landlords were a retired couple who did not live in Dublin. They were looking for 3 Professionals and so 3 out of the 4 of us met them with my Husband and I omitting the fact that we were a couple.

    We could all afford one-third of the Rent. But for various reasons we were all saving. Husband & I took the largest en-suite room and the 4 of us split the Rent equally.

    Our friends were a married friend of my Husband whose wife lived their home in Cork and he was there Mon-Thurs and a friend of mine who spent most nights with her boyfriend at the time.

    We kept the place very well. The Landlords always gave notice when calling so we were prepared.

    My Husband and I were the first to leave that house and when we were meeting the Landlords for the last time, they told us that they knew from very early on about the 4th person. One of the neighbours had told them. But the Rent was paid on time and the house was very well looked after so they had decided not to say anything.

    Ah, but 15 years ago was long before FG's very own Laurel and Hardy (aka Leo and Eoghan) launched a full frontal assault on landlords' rights.


  • #27
    SusanC10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭SusanC10


    Squatter wrote: »
    Ah, but 15 years ago was long before FG's very own Laurel and Hardy (aka Leo and Eoghan) launched a full frontal assault on landlords.

    Very true!

    But I suppose I am thinking that if the Tenants are paying on time and looking after the place then maybe not the worst thing.


  • #28
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Wabbit Ears wrote: »
    a fine way to absolutely guarantee good tenants turning bad overnight. Like really, how exactly does anyone thing trying to evict them over this will play out? They go.. yes, we were bad and will take our punishment without any consequences? seriously like



    You say they are good tenants even thought they broke the lease and YOU reckon they will cause trouble in the future.


  • #29
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    they signed a lease. if they break it then need to be served notice, unless you are not that bothered by the extra person(s). if you aren't bothered then leave them. (i wouldn't btw)

    tenants are like cars, once they start giving you trouble, then you're best rid of 'em.

    if the property is in Dublin, you will have no problem getting new tenants, who will play ball and comply with the terms of the lease. their loss.


  • #30
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,289 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    they signed a lease. if they break it then need to be served notice, unless you are not that bothered by the extra person(s). if you aren't bothered then leave them. (i wouldn't btw)

    tenants are like cars, once they start giving you trouble, then you're best rid of 'em.

    if the property is in Dublin, you will have no problem getting new tenants, who will play ball and comply with the terms of the lease. their loss.

    The OP could well be throwing out a paying tenant end up getting in a non paying tenant.


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  • #31
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    The OP could well be throwing out a paying tenant end up getting in a non paying tenant.

    if there are extra persons in the place, and they are still paying the same rent then as i see it, they are not paying their rent.

    my advice is to get rid of them as soon as he can.


  • #32
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    Wabbit Ears wrote: »
    a fine way to absolutely guarantee good tenants turning bad overnight. Like really, how exactly does anyone thing trying to evict them over this will play out? They go.. yes, we were bad and will take our punishment without any consequences? seriously like

    but they're not good tenants are they?


  • #33
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,289 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    if there are extra persons in the place, and they are still paying the same rent then as i see it, they are not paying their rent.

    my advice is to get rid of them as soon as he can.

    The o/p set a rent and is getting it.


  • #34
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    sorry, To me subletting to make sure rent is paid in full each and every month is not a particularly henious crime.

    I've lived in houseshares and sublet for many many years and have often been in these tenants shoes. Im reading all these "turf them out"posts in absolute disbelief that ye are such shining exmples of why the irish population think private landlords are devils incarnate.


  • #35
    ct5amr2ig1nfhp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭ct5amr2ig1nfhp


    Ah sure they're only breaking a few rules... be grand. Who's it hurting... :rolleyes:

    Good tenants who happen to be breaking the lease agreement they agreed with the OP.

    I wouldn't condone throwing them out but they have to be informed they are breaking the lease. If damaged is caused by the subletting tenants, you can be damn sure the original tenants will be washing their hands of any costs involved in repair work.
    Wabbit Ears wrote: »
    a fine way to absolutely guarantee good tenants turning bad overnight. Like really, how exactly does anyone thing trying to evict them over this will play out? They go.. yes, we were bad and will take our punishment without any consequences? seriously like


  • #36
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,310 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    Wabbit Ears wrote: »
    a fine way to absolutely guarantee good tenants turning bad overnight. Like really, how exactly does anyone thing trying to evict them over this will play out? They go.. yes, we were bad and will take our punishment without any consequences? seriously like

    Nonsense.
    It's attitudes as naive as yours that have the rental system in such a shambles.

    The it'll be grand attitude that has slumlords packing 40 people into unsuitable dwellings.

    Contracts are there for a reason.
    The tenants in this case have jeopardised their own accomodation and that of others and potentially the livelihood of their landlord.

    Wisest course of action is to terminate the lease. The OP can offer a new lease, at more favourable terms.


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  • #37
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    The o/p set a rent and is getting it.

    but the extra persons (and these are only the ones he knows about) are NOT paying rent. they are living there rent-free, and are effectively squatters.


  • #38
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Wabbit Ears wrote: »
    sorry, To me subletting to make sure rent is paid in full each and every month is not a particularly henious crime.

    I've lived in houseshares and sublet for many many years and have often been in these tenants shoes. Im reading all these "turf them out"posts in absolute disbelief that ye are such shining exmples of why the irish population think private landlords are devils incarnate.

    I'm confused you think LL and tenants should follow the rules, lease, or they shouldn't. Which is it.


  • #39
    Gravelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    It seems many of the same posters who are always harping on about how terrible most tenants are, seem to be the ones advocating throwing out tenants who are paying the rent on time and keeping the property well, and going to the market in the hope of getting even better tenants.....

    Perhaps good tenants aren't the rare creatures we are led to believe ;)

    I'd keep them rather than chance getting tenants who don't pay in time and don't keep the property well, just so I could make some point about them having broken the spirit of the lease.


  • #40
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    The o/p set a rent and is getting it.

    Actually the govt set the rent.


  • #41
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,911 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    but the extra persons (and these are only the ones he knows about) are NOT paying rent. they are living there rent-free, and are effectively squatters.

    Presumably the couple on the lease aren't letting them live there for free. So they are paying rent, just not to the OP.


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  • #42
    endainoz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭endainoz


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote:
    tell them they are in breach of their lease. tell them you intend to double the rent, if they wish to stay. give them a few days to decide.

    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote:
    they signed a lease. if they break it then need to be served notice, unless you are not that bothered by the extra person(s). if you aren't bothered then leave them. (i wouldn't btw)

    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote:
    tenants are like cars, once they start giving you trouble, then you're best rid of 'em.

    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote:
    if the property is in Dublin, you will have no problem getting new tenants, who will play ball and comply with the terms of the lease. their loss.

    Hey the 1840s called, they want their landlords back.


  • #43
    eoing90
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭eoing90


    Op I don’t see a huge issue here. Regardless about the sublet the current tenants are still responsible for the property so any damage would be taken out of the deposit. Also you can’t kick them out of the property for breach of the lease. you have to give them an opportunity to rectify the situation otherwise you will end up in the prtb and lose.


  • #44
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    eoing90 wrote: »
    Op I don’t see a huge issue here. Regardless about the sublet the current tenants are still responsible for the property so any damage would be taken out of the deposit. Also you can’t kick them out of the property for breach of the lease. you have to give them an opportunity to rectify the situation otherwise you will end up in the prtb and lose.

    yes give them an opportunity to sort it out. if they don't serve them notice.
    you will have no problem in getting new tenants, who will comply with their LA.


  • #45
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    It's curious if a landlord put extra tenants in a property it's bad. If a tenant does it, it's ok. If a landlord breaks the rules he's bad, if a tenant does it it's ok.

    It's not the rent as most here seem agreed if the rent is paid it doesn't matter who by.


  • #46
    troyzer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Dial Hard wrote: »
    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    but the extra persons (and these are only the ones he knows about) are NOT paying rent. they are living there rent-free, and are effectively squatters.

    Presumably the couple on the lease aren't letting them live there for free. So they are paying rent, just not to the OP.

    Congratulations and welcome to the subletting model.

    You're absolutely right, they take the rent and don't give it directly to the landlord. Because it's a sublet.

    The tenants and landlord have agreed a price and they're paying it.


  • #47
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    eoing90 wrote: »
    ... you can’t kick them out of the property for breach of the lease. ....

    You can't break what you aren't on I guess...


  • #48
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    troyzer wrote: »
    Congratulations and welcome to the subletting model.

    You're absolutely right, they take the rent and don't give it directly to the landlord. Because it's a sublet.

    The tenants and landlord have agreed a price and they're paying it.


    So can the tenants charge any rent they like to those they are subletting too.


  • #49
    eoing90
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭eoing90


    beauf wrote: »
    So can the tenants charge any rent they like to those they are subletting too.

    yes


  • #50
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    they have breached the LA so the LL is quite entitled to serve them notice.
    make sure you give them the correct notice etc.

    In a fixed term lease, a Notice of Termination can be served for the following 3 reasons:
    • There is a break clause in the lease agreement.
    • Both parties agree to terminating the tenancy.
    • The tenant breached his or her obligations and has been given reasonable time to rectify the breach, then 28 days notice is required.

    https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/how-a-landlord-can-end-a-tenancy/


  • #51
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    eoing90 wrote: »
    yes

    They can breech the rpz then. Seems like a loophole.


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