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Tenants sublet house without permission

pjackson

I rented a house to a couple in January 2018. The rent has been paid on time and the house is being kept well. However I have just discovered that the couple brought 2 additional people into the house a number of months ago. My belief is that they intended to do so from the outset as the rent was not sustainable for them. At the time of letting the house, I asked the couple whether the rent was affordable and they indicated that it was. So they are in breach of the lease. My thinking on the next steps is to meet with all 4 people in the house and to indicated that I want to regularise the situation with all parties signing a new lease. I believe one of the tenants (a student) may leave in May when his course finishes and I am thinking that from that point, I will tell them that I want a maximum of 3 in the (3 bedroom) house. My original ideas was to get 3 professional people sharing the house.

Any advice would be appreciated particularly from anyone who may have had a similar situation as a landlord.

Thanks in advance.

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Wheres Me Jumper?

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

a fine way to absolutely guarantee good tenants turning bad overnight. Like really, how exactly does anyone thing trying to evict them over this will play out? They go.. yes, we were bad and will take our punishment without any consequences? seriously like

but they're not good tenants are they?

Claw Hammer

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

if there are extra persons in the place, and they are still paying the same rent then as i see it, they are not paying their rent.

my advice is to get rid of them as soon as he can.

The o/p set a rent and is getting it.

Wabbit Ears

sorry, To me subletting to make sure rent is paid in full each and every month is not a particularly henious crime.

I've lived in houseshares and sublet for many many years and have often been in these tenants shoes. Im reading all these "turf them out"posts in absolute disbelief that ye are such shining exmples of why the irish population think private landlords are devils incarnate.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Ah sure they're only breaking a few rules... be grand. Who's it hurting... :rolleyes:

Good tenants who happen to be breaking the lease agreement they agreed with the OP.

I wouldn't condone throwing them out but they have to be informed they are breaking the lease. If damaged is caused by the subletting tenants, you can be damn sure the original tenants will be washing their hands of any costs involved in repair work.

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

a fine way to absolutely guarantee good tenants turning bad overnight. Like really, how exactly does anyone thing trying to evict them over this will play out? They go.. yes, we were bad and will take our punishment without any consequences? seriously like

Pkiernan

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

a fine way to absolutely guarantee good tenants turning bad overnight. Like really, how exactly does anyone thing trying to evict them over this will play out? They go.. yes, we were bad and will take our punishment without any consequences? seriously like

Nonsense.
It's attitudes as naive as yours that have the rental system in such a shambles.

The it'll be grand attitude that has slumlords packing 40 people into unsuitable dwellings.

Contracts are there for a reason.
The tenants in this case have jeopardised their own accomodation and that of others and potentially the livelihood of their landlord.

Wisest course of action is to terminate the lease. The OP can offer a new lease, at more favourable terms.

Wheres Me Jumper?

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The o/p set a rent and is getting it.

but the extra persons (and these are only the ones he knows about) are NOT paying rent. they are living there rent-free, and are effectively squatters.

beauf

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

sorry, To me subletting to make sure rent is paid in full each and every month is not a particularly henious crime.

I've lived in houseshares and sublet for many many years and have often been in these tenants shoes. Im reading all these "turf them out"posts in absolute disbelief that ye are such shining exmples of why the irish population think private landlords are devils incarnate.

I'm confused you think LL and tenants should follow the rules, lease, or they shouldn't. Which is it.

Gravelly

It seems many of the same posters who are always harping on about how terrible most tenants are, seem to be the ones advocating throwing out tenants who are paying the rent on time and keeping the property well, and going to the market in the hope of getting even better tenants.....

Perhaps good tenants aren't the rare creatures we are led to believe

I'd keep them rather than chance getting tenants who don't pay in time and don't keep the property well, just so I could make some point about them having broken the spirit of the lease.

beauf

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The o/p set a rent and is getting it.

Actually the govt set the rent.

Dial Hard

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

but the extra persons (and these are only the ones he knows about) are NOT paying rent. they are living there rent-free, and are effectively squatters.

Presumably the couple on the lease aren't letting them live there for free. So they are paying rent, just not to the OP.

endainoz

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote:

tell them they are in breach of their lease. tell them you intend to double the rent, if they wish to stay. give them a few days to decide.

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote:

they signed a lease. if they break it then need to be served notice, unless you are not that bothered by the extra person(s). if you aren't bothered then leave them. (i wouldn't btw)

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote:

tenants are like cars, once they start giving you trouble, then you're best rid of 'em.

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote:

if the property is in Dublin, you will have no problem getting new tenants, who will play ball and comply with the terms of the lease. their loss.

Hey the 1840s called, they want their landlords back.

eoing90

Op I don’t see a huge issue here. Regardless about the sublet the current tenants are still responsible for the property so any damage would be taken out of the deposit. Also you can’t kick them out of the property for breach of the lease. you have to give them an opportunity to rectify the situation otherwise you will end up in the prtb and lose.

Wheres Me Jumper?

eoing90 wrote: »

Op I don’t see a huge issue here. Regardless about the sublet the current tenants are still responsible for the property so any damage would be taken out of the deposit. Also you can’t kick them out of the property for breach of the lease. you have to give them an opportunity to rectify the situation otherwise you will end up in the prtb and lose.

yes give them an opportunity to sort it out. if they don't serve them notice.
you will have no problem in getting new tenants, who will comply with their LA.

beauf

It's curious if a landlord put extra tenants in a property it's bad. If a tenant does it, it's ok. If a landlord breaks the rules he's bad, if a tenant does it it's ok.

It's not the rent as most here seem agreed if the rent is paid it doesn't matter who by.

troyzer

Dial Hard wrote: »

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

but the extra persons (and these are only the ones he knows about) are NOT paying rent. they are living there rent-free, and are effectively squatters.

Presumably the couple on the lease aren't letting them live there for free. So they are paying rent, just not to the OP.

Congratulations and welcome to the subletting model.

You're absolutely right, they take the rent and don't give it directly to the landlord. Because it's a sublet.

The tenants and landlord have agreed a price and they're paying it.

beauf

eoing90 wrote: »

... you can’t kick them out of the property for breach of the lease. ....

You can't break what you aren't on I guess...

beauf

troyzer wrote: »

Congratulations and welcome to the subletting model.

You're absolutely right, they take the rent and don't give it directly to the landlord. Because it's a sublet.

The tenants and landlord have agreed a price and they're paying it.

So can the tenants charge any rent they like to those they are subletting too.

eoing90

beauf wrote: »

So can the tenants charge any rent they like to those they are subletting too.

yes

Wheres Me Jumper?

they have breached the LA so the LL is quite entitled to serve them notice.
make sure you give them the correct notice etc.

In a fixed term lease, a Notice of Termination can be served for the following 3 reasons:

There is a break clause in the lease agreement.
Both parties agree to terminating the tenancy.
The tenant breached his or her obligations and has been given reasonable time to rectify the breach, then 28 days notice is required.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/how-a-landlord-can-end-a-tenancy/

beauf

eoing90 wrote: »

yes

They can breech the rpz then. Seems like a loophole.

Browney7

eoing90 wrote: »

.... Also you can’t kick them out of the property for breach of the lease. you have to give them an opportunity to rectify the situation otherwise you will end up in the prtb and lose.

I was going to post the same. LL gives tenants notice and opportunity to remedy. Tenant says thy have remedied. LL inspects and no proof of extra people (they go out for the eve).LL leaves and extra person sleeps happily in their bed for the eve.

Would it not be next to near impossible to prove in an RTB situation the extra tenant is there full time without sitting outside the property for days on days getting evidence together?

Wheres Me Jumper?

Browney7 wrote: »

I was going to post the same. LL gives tenants notice and opportunity to remedy. Tenant says thy have remedied. LL inspects and no proof of extra people (they go out for the eve).LL leaves and extra person sleeps happily in their bed for the eve.

Would it not be next to near impossible to prove in an RTB situation the extra tenant is there full time without sitting outside the property for days on days getting evidence together?

that's why as a LL it is always to cultivate a good relationship with one or two neighbours, who can keep an eye on who's coming & going.

from my experience most good neighbours are more than happy to help as they dont want the place turned into a kip-house, with all the attendant problems.

if the OP decides on the eviction route, as i advise, then he might well use this as an opportunity to increase the rent when he gets new tenants.

Effects

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

if the OP decides on the eviction route, as i advise, then he might well use this as an opportunity to increase the rent when he gets new tenants.

Which he can't do if it's in a RPZ.

Browney7

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

that's why as a LL it is always to cultivate a good relationship with one or two neighbours, who can keep an eye on who's coming & going.

from my experience most good neighbours are more than happy to help as they dont want the place turned into a kip-house, with all the attendant problems.

if the OP decides on the eviction route, as i advise, then he might well use this as an opportunity to increase the rent when he gets new tenants.

I'm making the point it's not the slam dunk eviction grounds it is made out to be by posters here.

What if tenant claims they're really good mates and they visit very regularly but never stay over. Sure doesn't the RTB hate all landlords and bends over backwards to help all tenants? A neighbour saying "ah I see them there a load of the time" may not cut it.

It's not like the LL can call in whenever they like to inspect the place without breaching quiet enjoyment.

eoing90

Op they are now on a part four tenancy so more difficult to evict.
Your three options are as follows :
1- leave it as it is and inspect every six months.
2- tell them you know what’s going on and it needs to stop otherwise you will give them a termination notice. They are entitled to remedy the situation.
3- tell them a new lease has to be set up as there are new tenants.

What might sound like your in your right to just kick them out because of the minor distrust the prtb will take a different view and you will end up out of pocket. Believe me I’ve been to many hearings for both landlord and tenant and they favor heavily on the tenants side these days.

rightmove

Browney7 wrote: »

I'm making the point it's not the slam dunk eviction grounds it is made out to be by posters here.

What if tenant claims they're really good mates and they visit very regularly but never stay over. Sure doesn't the RTB hate all landlords and bends over backwards to help all tenants? A neighbour saying "ah I see them there a load of the time" may not cut it.

It's not like the LL can call in whenever they like to inspect the place without breaching quiet enjoyment.

Thats why ll are leaving and tenants have less places to rent

Wheres Me Jumper?

Effects wrote: »

Which he can't do if it's in a RPZ.

if i were the LL i would look upon this not as a problem, but as an opportunity.

It is important to remember that not all properties in Rent Pressure Zones are subject to the 4% restriction. Exempt properties include those that have undergone a 'substantial change in the nature of the accommodation'.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/rent-pressure-zones/

troyzer

beauf wrote: »

eoing90 wrote: »

yes

They can breech the rpz then. Seems like a loophole.

No they can't. Because sub lets are licensees, not tenants.

Wheres Me Jumper?

Browney7 wrote: »

I'm making the point it's not the slam dunk eviction grounds it is made out to be by posters here.

What if tenant claims they're really good mates and they visit very regularly but never stay over. Sure doesn't the RTB hate all landlords and bends over backwards to help all tenants? A neighbour saying "ah I see them there a load of the time" may not cut it.

It's not like the LL can call in whenever they like to inspect the place without breaching quiet enjoyment.

sorry to bust your bubble, but the RTB website clearly states it is grounds for termination. check it out. a LA is a contract.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/how-a-landlord-can-end-a-tenancy/

pjackson

My thinking is that I will give the tenants the opportunity to regularise the situation by getting all of those who want to stay to sign a new lease. I think one might leave with 3 remaining. If they can't accept or afford that they can move on.