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Cold Spell - Feb 7th to 13th 2021 - Technical Discussion

2456718

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Still no sign of any increase in convection upstream for later. 700-600 hPa has cooled by about 5 degrees over NE England in the last 24 hours but the very low dewpoints are reducing surface instability to offset this. Windspeed is a little too strong to allow enough residence time to bring up dewpoints a little and destabilise the surface parcels a little more. We need the wind to abate a little, but there seems to be only a narrow window for this overnight. For now, cloudtops remain at or below 3000 m.

    giphy.gif


  • Registered Users Posts: 430 ✭✭Donegal Ken


    Status Yellow - Snow/Ice warning for Dublin, Kildare, Louth, Wicklow, Meath and Monaghan
    Met Éireann Weather Warning


    Snow accumulations of 2 to 5 cm in places.

    Valid: 18:00 Monday 08/02/2021 to 18:00 Tuesday 09/02/2021

    Issued: 16:00 Monday 08/02/2021


  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I am getting mixed signals from this thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭Rebelbrowser


    I am getting mixed signals from this thread.

    That'll be the mixed signals!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    I am getting mixed signals from this thread.

    In summery: light to moderate snow showers from now till tomorrow evening/night along eastern coastal counties. Much of this will be hit and miss depending on streamers and shadows. Small accumulations of 1 to 5 cm possible between now and Wednesday, a few lucky places could get a little bit more than this maybe up to 8 or 9cm. Some places in the highlighted counties may get nothing at all if they avoid all the streamers.

    Forget about Thursday onwards for now, so much can go right or wrong with Thursday to Sunday at this point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,810 ✭✭✭Calibos


    Eagerly awaiting what the ECM has to say for itself.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    GFS 12z has completed.

    Most GFS members are trending towards a continuation of the cold spell and a fairly significant increase in the snow potential for this weekend and early next week before a warm up takes place. The mild weekend blip is non existent at this point.

    ens_image.php?geoid=64969&var=201&run=12&date=2021-02-08&model=gfs&member=ENS&bw=1


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭giveitholly


    Gonzo wrote: »
    GFS 12z has completed.

    Most GFS members are trending towards a continuation of the cold spell and a fairly significant increase in the snow potential for this weekend and early next week before a warm up takes place. The mild weekend blip is non existent at this point.

    ens_image.php?geoid=64969&var=201&run=12&date=2021-02-08&model=gfs&member=ENS&bw=1

    Would that be for all of Ireland or is it still going to get mild in the south of the country?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,017 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    ECM 12z for 8pm Thursday

    xx-model-en-318-0-modez-2021020812-80-949-155-1.png


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Calibos wrote: »
    Eagerly awaiting what the ECM has to say for itself.

    Cursory glance, but not Good news,might struggle to hold onto hill snow in the east Friday morning
    The 2nd front obviously will then be all rain
    A win for the Atlantic
    Look at where the air originates feeding in on Friday
    url]

    UK fax has the occlusion over the east at noon Friday but with the airflow from the south

    1394525914_Fax10Feb2021.png.d0dc1fd3656bbbbc6e2e1185788a95b0.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    The GFS scenario of earlier is what would happen if this winter was not one big tease, but of course that will fall into line soon enough. I started to lose interest in this event after I read the Met Eireann forecast this morning. Unfortunately at this stage, it's very rare to see upgrades once it starts going wrong. No doubt some people will see a good few hours of snow on Thursday, but for me snow that is then quickly washed away is rather pointless.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    The GFS scenario of earlier is what would happen if this winter was not one big tease, but of course that will fall into line soon enough. I started to lose interest in this event after I read the Met Eireann forecast this morning. Unfortunately at this stage, it's very rare to see upgrades once it starts going wrong. No doubt some people will see a good few hours of snow on Thursday, but for me snow that is then quickly washed away is rather pointless.

    Most models show the cold continuing to Sunday. That’s what the BBC forecast said too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭Cw85


    The GFS scenario of earlier is what would happen if this winter was not one big tease, but of course that will fall into line soon enough. I started to lose interest in this event after I read the Met Eireann forecast this morning. Unfortunately at this stage, it's very rare to see upgrades once it starts going wrong. No doubt some people will see a good few hours of snow on Thursday, but for me snow that is then quickly washed away is rather pointless.

    I'm very confused here, a lot of the regular good posters saying it looks like the cold spell will last through the weekend?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,151 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Cw85 wrote: »
    I'm very confused here, a lot of the regular good posters saying it looks like the cold spell will last through the weekend?

    The models differ as to what will happen. I am sure one of them will be right (or be more right) than others....that's the only thing we can be sure of!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,017 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    Cw85 wrote: »
    I'm very confused here, a lot of the regular good posters saying it looks like the cold spell will last through the weekend?

    Nacho is further west the front seems like it will dump most snow further east.

    I would be more upbeat about Thursday as both the GFS and ECM show a good few hours of snow here (Wexford)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,309 ✭✭✭Cork2021


    Cork missing out?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Cork2021 wrote: »
    Cork missing out?

    Well, you may get a few hours of snow there before it turns to rain- especially the further north you are, but the closer you are to the coast the greater the risk of it being just rain or sleet from the get go.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Nacho is further west the front seems like it will dump most snow further east.

    I would be more upbeat about Thursday as both the GFS and ECM show a good few hours of snow here (Wexford)
    Yes it looks good for you. I have a friend in Wexford who does not like snow. I know, i should unfriend him for this insolence:pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    If I were a betting man I would be putting money on that front stalling a bit further west than is currently being progged. Its parent low out south of Greenland shows signs that it will probably retreat westwards slightly more, with flow becoming more aligned along the front earlier, causing it to stall. Frontal dynamic parameters from today's 12Z GFS suggest the frontal gradient will be diminishing, hence reducing precipitation on Thursday evening (see Q-vector div. charts for 00Z and 12Z runs below).

    Ahead of that front, heights are pumped northwards over us and help set up a southern Scandi high for the weekend, which should keep the colder air further west for then. I think one or two more opportunities over the weekend could turn out to be a little more potent for precipitation, though exactly how snowy it will be remains to be seen, given the fact that we'll be in more of a stagnating airmass by then.

    542600.gif

    542601.gif


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,901 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    There is a risk of multiple snow events for some.

    ECM has no less than 3 potential "events" between Thursday and Monday particularly in the eastern half of the country.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,219 ✭✭✭pad199207


    If I were a betting man I would be putting money on that front stalling a bit further west than is currently being progged. Its parent low out south of Greenland shows signs that it will probably retreat westwards slightly more, with flow becoming more aligned along the front earlier, causing it to stall. Frontal dynamic parameters from today's 12Z GFS suggest the frontal gradient will be diminishing, hence reducing precipitation on Thursday evening (see Q-vector div. charts for 00Z and 12Z runs below).

    Ahead of that front, heights are pumped northwards over us and help set up a southern Scandi high for the weekend, which should keep the colder air further west for then. I think one or two more opportunities over the weekend could turn out to be a little more potent for precipitation, though exactly how snowy it will be remains to be seen, given the fact that we'll be in more of a stagnating airmass by then.

    542600.gif

    542601.gif

    Anything that can go wrong will go wrong


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Cork Airport is getting in on the snow depth reports, with <0.5 cm reported in the last couple of hours.

    Still snowing hard in southeastern England, with 26 cm now at Andrewsfield (87 m amsl) from that frontal event.

    542604.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,309 ✭✭✭Cork2021


    Well, you may get a few hours of snow there before it turns to rain- especially the further north you are, but the closer you are to the coast the greater the risk of it being just rain or sleet from the get go.

    Near Mallow, not so bad


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,017 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    Yes it looks good for you. I have a friend in Wexford who does not like snow. I know, i should unfriend him for this insolence:pac:

    Blasphemy!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    There is a risk of multiple snow events for some.

    ECM has no less than 3 potential "events" between Thursday and Monday particularly in the eastern half of the country.

    Just took a look at the latest ECM snow charts, unfortunately I cannot post them here, so I'll leave a link instead and everyone can look for themselves.

    Shows snow cover through much of the country from Thursday to the following Thursday. I think it's a bit of a stretch that the ECM is showing snow cover for at least a week but that's what it is showing this evening.

    https://weather.us/model-charts/euro/ireland/snow-depth-in/20210217-0600z.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭kerrycork13


    Well, you may get a few hours of snow there before it turns to rain- especially the further north you are, but the closer you are to the coast the greater the risk of it being just rain or sleet from the get go.

    As this poster said. Cork is just too big a county to say. It obviously is more likely to be rain all along the coast but as it meets the colder air and higher altitudes 50 to 60 miles inland for example ballydesmond charleville and mitchesltown the chances are much greater. So to summarise the further north in the county you are the better.
    In relation to shower activity though for the next day or 2 the opposite would apply if you get me.
    Hope that clears things up for you


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Pattern over the last few days. Note how the air mass streaming out of southern Norway is consistently diluted as it crosses over the North Sea:

    LPsos3m.gif

    Currently hovering just above freezing here. Doesn't really matter how you dress it up, but this is a woeful temperature for a winter easterly.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,219 ✭✭✭pad199207


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    Pattern over the last few days. Note how the air mass streaming out of southern Norway is consistently diluted as it crosses over the North Sea:

    LPsos3m.gif

    Currently hovering just above freezing here. Doesn't really matter how you dress it up, but this is a woeful temperature for a winter easterly.

    Not all easterlies are going to hit the sweet spot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    Pattern over the last few days. Note how the air mass streaming out of southern Norway is consistently diluted as it crosses over the North Sea:

    Currently hovering just above freezing here. Doesn't really matter how you dress it up, but this is a woeful temperature for a winter easterly.

    Nice animation. We (especially you) were always going to be on the extreme periphery of the coldest air. Last in the soup queue, so to speak.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctOBMFznkto


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    pad199207 wrote: »
    Not all easterlies are going to hit the sweet spot.

    This easterly is close to a bust. We've seen colder temperatures and better snow showers from the Atlantic and that's saying something.

    We still have Thursday to Sunday to hopefully deliver something of note.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Periphery or not, these temperatures are extremely poor.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    It's a timely reminder that easterlies often times are not what they are cracked up to be either. They are very much hit and miss, just like Northerlies.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Gonzo wrote: »
    Just took a look at the latest ECM snow charts, unfortunately I cannot post them here, so I'll leave a link instead and everyone can look for themselves.

    Shows snow cover through much of the country from Thursday to the following Thursday. I think it's a bit of a stretch that the ECM is showing snow cover for at least a week but that's what it is showing this evening.

    https://weather.us/model-charts/euro/ireland/snow-depth-in/20210217-0600z.html

    I'll believe that chart when i see it!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    It's a timely reminder that easterlies often times are not what they are cracked up to be either. They are very much hit and miss, just like Northerlies.

    If there is one benefit to this easterly, it is how dry it is. Nearly blinded by the roads around around the streets here, they look almost white with dryness. Something that has not been seen since about October. Badly needed, yet, I still don't recall any heavy rain this year, just miserable light cold crap pretty much 80% of the time.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Gonzo wrote: »
    This easterly is close to a bust. We've seen colder temperatures and better snow showers from the Atlantic and that's saying something.

    We still have Thursday to Sunday to hopefully deliver something of note.

    Just to add, if Thursday to Sunday does not deliver, it will prove that this winter has been one big tease. I know i come across as negative, but it's only because this winter could have been a classic one in terms of snowfall and cold with the nh profile we've have since late December, yet it has led to poor surface conditions overall. The real kicker is that in some winters, where we have endured our default winter pattern, we've actually had more snowfall than we've had so far this winter.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    The only issue I have is the wind and cloud. It’s quite difficult to sustain subzero temps in sunshine without snow cover.

    Here today we struggled to get above 2c despite the sunshine, I think that is relatively cold. Yes the minimums could be better, that is down to the wind rather than the airmass intensity.

    An easterly, however, is never going to meet the standards of a good northerly here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,981 ✭✭✭JanuarySnowstor


    Starting to look incredible for the East Thursday to Sunday
    Heavy snow almost a certain red warning for the East and Northeast
    Those who are saying this Easterly is a sham compared to years gone by. Em sorry I've lived through them and if the snow delivers this weekend it will be on the top 5 over the last 40 years!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,595 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    If there is one benefit to this easterly, it is how dry it is. Nearly blinded by the roads around around the streets here, they look almost white with dryness. Something that has not been seen since about October. Badly needed, yet, I still don't recall any heavy rain this year, just miserable light cold crap pretty much 80% of the time.

    I said the same yesterday. This dry period was needed. We were approaching median flood levels.

    He is the station at Dangan. The water levels have already fallen significantly since the 4th Jan.

    https://waterlevel.ie/0000030098/0001/

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    Starting to look incredible for the East Thursday to Sunday
    Heavy snow almost a certain red warning for the East and Northeast
    Those who are saying this Easterly is a sham compared to years gone by. Em sorry I've lived through them and if the snow delivers this weekend it will be on the top 5 over the last 40 years!!

    Well the snow is very localised. A good system would deliver widespread snow, or provide plenty of opportunities for deep snow.

    This one is just rather dry.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Starting to look incredible for the East Thursday to Sunday
    Heavy snow almost a certain red warning for the East and Northeast
    Those who are saying this Easterly is a sham compared to years gone by. Em sorry I've lived through them and if the snow delivers this weekend it will be on the top 5 over the last 40 years!!

    If is the keyword. Also be careful JS, everytime you ramp it usually all goes to pot:p


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,017 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    If the GFS came off it would be snowing in the east from Thursday until Monday. Cold air keeps winning against the fronts coming in. Unlikely as that is as of now, I'd expect a warning from Met Eireann tomorrow night for Thursday IF still showing as modelled.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭Neddyusa


    Nqp15hhu wrote: »
    The only issue I have is the wind and cloud. It’s quite difficult to sustain subzero temps in sunshine without snow cover.

    Here today we struggled to get above 2c despite the sunshine, I think that is relatively cold. Yes the minimums could be better, that is down to the wind rather than the airmass intensity.

    An easterly, however, is never going to meet the standards of a good northerly here.



    That applies for most of Ireland (except for East Munster and coastal counties of Leinster)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    If tonights GFS comes off, over 100cm of snow is possible in the Wicklow mountains. SE Leinster could see up to 20cm too in places away from high ground. It doesn't show much for Dublin/Meath possibly the Wicklow mountains killing much of our snowfall, possibly taking snow melt into the equation too.

    Looks loads for Donegal as well as western southern parts of Northern Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,218 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Starting to look incredible for the East Thursday to Sunday
    Heavy snow almost a certain red warning for the East and Northeast
    Those who are saying this Easterly is a sham compared to years gone by. Em sorry I've lived through them and if the snow delivers this weekend it will be on the top 5 over the last 40 years!!

    That IF is too off the mark to even be a probable. I think you're way off. And this Easterly is not in the top 10 in my 60+ years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭snowgal


    Jim_Hodge wrote: »
    That IF is too off the mark to even be a probable. I think you're way off. And this Easterly is not in the top 10 in my 60+ years.

    That if is model watching, what else can we do...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭gimpotronitus


    Gonzo wrote: »
    If tonights GFS comes off, over 100cm of snow is possible in the Wicklow mountains. SE Leinster could see up to 20cm too in places away from high ground. It doesn't show much for Dublin/Meath possibly the Wicklow mountains killing much of our snowfall, possibly taking snow melt into the equation too.

    Looks loads for Donegal as well as western southern parts of Northern Ireland.

    With the exception of higher ground in South Dublin, usually does well in this kind of setup.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,017 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    GEM has the warmer air in on Saturday but not before two snow events Thursday and Friday night into Saturday


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Copied this over from the chat thread because it will quickly go back in the thread there:
    A reliable answer to the Thursday snow potential won't really be available until closer to the time (Friday morning? jk) ... but there's no particular trend towards or away from good snow potential in the most recent guidance. The basic concept of that potential is that milder air will meet enough resistance from cold air to be forced over top for long enough that there's a decent period of snowfall before the inevitable time where the front pushes through and there's no more over-running. A second warm front is likely to be embedded in the flow which would lead to a secondary maximum of precip later, all rain (but this applied with greater confidence to the western two-thirds of Ireland, there are still options where the cold air is so resistant that it never actually leaves before the over-running moves away to the north, to be followed by a second boundary event of some kind around Monday).

    This can all change if the models pick up on either (a) less resistance, the cold high moving away to the east too far to offer much resistance), or (b) less warm air advection, the cold air winning out more decisively and keeping the milder air at bay. I don't think there's much chance of (b) but there is a significant chance of (a).

    Also snow rates can be greater or lesser depending on the dynamics, maybe some would fall but not very much, with adequate time but rates too low, the outcome is not as good.

    I am seeing a tendency for the cold block to start sliding south more to the east of Britain which we'll need to assess, part of the thinking about snow potential involves how cold it remains in Britain because by then, with a southeast flow established, the cold air being maintained in eastern Ireland needs to be reinforced by deeper cold in western Britain, otherwise, western Britain becomes the more ideal location for the snowfall.

    Just a general note, if anything, the small amounts of snow being reported so far are a bit ahead of median expectations from model guidance, as I was hoping might be the case, so certainly on a good trend since tomorrow was always looking better than today.

    I was following reports fairly closely in southeast England and the details there are interesting. Snow amounts have varied considerably, two areas seemed to do particularly well, one being east Kent (10-20 cm amounts) and the other being a coastal to 20 km inland stretch of east Anglia from Norfolk to Essex, 20-30 cm amounts reported locally there. Into parts of west Kent, east London and east Surrey, 5 cms about the best amounts reported, and gradually down to trace-2 cm coatings further west into Oxfordshire.

    Results in the U.K. midlands and Yorkshire somewhat hit or miss, but some reports of thundersnow which could become the case in the Dublin area at times tomorrow, we shall see. Not that I'm saying thundersnow plus massive amounts of snow in this case, just thunder with whatever smaller amounts you might see. Local maxima tomorrow could be 10-15 cm in a few lucky spots. Average might be a lot closer to 2 cms.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    A sober update by M.T. I wish i had given him some whiskey before he wrote it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    I’m not convinced the mild air will win out.


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