College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

MJohnston · 05-10-2018 10:07am

alentejo wrote: »

Past by College Green this morning. My got it is a sad in indictment of public transport policy failings! Wonder what tourists think?

They're probably thinking "okay so I need to cross this road to get to Grafton Street", or "I wonder where is good for lunch?", or "I hate my kids", or "do we need to pay to see the Book of Kells?", or "where are my bus tour tickets?".

You know what they're very likely not thinking about? Traffic.

Calina · 05-10-2018 10:42am

alentejo wrote: »

Past by College Green this morning. My got it is a sad in indictment of public transport policy failings! Wonder what tourists think?

The last time I passed it I was a tourist.

I actually didn't care.

As an ex-inhabitant I do not see it as an indictment of past failings. What I see as a failing is the utterly absurd ticketing set up in Dublin. Standardise it across all modes and all operators.

cgcsb · 05-10-2018 11:26am

Just incomprehensible.

The two most important cases with the ABP are College Green and Poolbeg West, and they just keep getting kicked down the road. Someone needs to allocate resources properly. If someone is appealing their domestic extension, they can wait. Sort College Green and fast track Poolbeg.

Bray Head · 05-10-2018 2:25pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The two most important cases with the NTA are College Green and Poolbeg West,

Don't you mean ABP?

wakka12 · 05-10-2018 3:52pm

MJohnston wrote: »

They're probably thinking "okay so I need to cross this road to get to Grafton Street", or "I wonder where is good for lunch?", or "I hate my kids", or "do we need to pay to see the Book of Kells?", or "where are my bus tour tickets?".

You know what they're very likely not thinking about? Traffic.

Youre right but its a case of what you dont know cant hurt you
Everyone , not just tourists, would obviously appreciate a public plaza there if given the choice between whats there now, and whats there now it messy and chaotic in every respect

cgcsb · 05-10-2018 3:58pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Don't you mean ABP?

yes

MJohnston · 05-10-2018 4:05pm

wakka12 wrote: »

Youre right but its a case of what you dont know cant hurt you
Everyone , not just tourists, would obviously appreciate a public plaza there if given the choice between whats there now, and whats there now it messy and chaotic in every respect

I certainly want the plaza very much myself, I just don't like this recurring narrative in so many infrastructure projects about "what would the tourists think?"

The tourists largely don't care, and are usually pretty unimportant in terms of the usage figures of any given project too.

In other words, we shouldn't be worrying about doing these things for the tourists, we should be doing them for residents.

celtcia · 08-10-2018 1:04pm

MJohnston wrote: »

wakka12 wrote: »

Youre right but its a case of what you dont know cant hurt you
Everyone , not just tourists, would obviously appreciate a public plaza there if given the choice between whats there now, and whats there now it messy and chaotic in every respect

I certainly want the plaza very much myself, I just don't like this recurring narrative in so many infrastructure projects about "what would the tourists think?"
.

We know what they will think...
Where are the public toilets, where are the guards, why is there a pole blocking trinity college, why are there railings, why is there a gap in the Luas lines, etc...

MJohnston · 08-10-2018 1:07pm

celtcia wrote: »

We know what they will think...
Where are the public toilets, where are the guards, why is there a pole blocking trinity college, why are there railings, why is there a gap in the Luas lines, etc...

They might be wondering about public toilets, but I very much doubt they're worried about the other things, particularly the last 3.

Muahahaha · 08-10-2018 2:33pm

Passed through CG the other day, it really is a mess. Sooner the plaza goes ahead the better. Wondering what is the process if ABP give the go ahead- is their decision final or can it be appealed to the courts?

MJohnston · 08-10-2018 2:36pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Passed through CG the other day, it really is a mess. Sooner the plaza goes ahead the better. Wondering what is the process if ABP give the go ahead- is their decision final or can it be appealed to the courts?

As long as ABP haven't fücked it up like they did with the St Anne's Park development, I don't think there's much recourse to be had. I also don't know who exactly would take it to the courts in this case, maybe a motoring group or something, but that seems unlikely.

Muahahaha · 08-10-2018 2:42pm

So all going to plan might it be built by the end of 2019? Be a great result if it is, it would really transform the area.

cgcsb · 08-10-2018 3:15pm

Shocking this has been allowed to go on, it should've been completed before LCC opened. Instead the earliest it'll be delivered is 2 years after LCC opened. At least it'll be closed to traffic soon enough, even if the streetscape isn't finished.

The streetscape in most of Dublin is a dogs dinner, way to many metal boxes, excessive polls, cheap stained and uneven paving, bags of recycling from businesses strewn across the street. If we can get this right, it should be a blueprint for the rest of the city.

bk · 08-10-2018 3:42pm

On the tourist thing. I'd agree that tourists don't look at particular details like those mentioned above. However when I think of my own trips, I do have an overall impression of a city. Oh, that was a really pleasant city, I'd love to go back or that was terrible.

And now that I think about it, it is the walk-ability of the city, how accessible it is, how easy it is to get around, how nice the outdoor areas are. A city like Prague, Amsterdam, which are highly walkable, I absolutely love and can't wait to return to and rave to other people about them. A city like Atlanta, yuck, horrible and never want to return to it and wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Dublin feels like it fits in somewhere in between those two extremes. Not insane like Atlanta, but not very walkable either, too many cars and buses rushing by next to you all throughout the city center.

But I also agree we should be improving the fabric of our city for the locals first and foremost. Thing is though, what makes for a pleasant environment for tourists, usually makes for a pleasant environment for locals too, while making it easier to "sell".

cgcsb · 08-10-2018 3:46pm

On a more positive note, since LCC opened, I have to say Dawson St is absolutely gorgeous. My British colleague was visiting recently and commented on it also. The embarrassment that has been made of Grafton st, and the even worse half finished side streets off it would get you down all the same.

wakka12 · 08-10-2018 3:52pm

cgcsb wrote: »

On a more positive note, since LCC opened, I have to say Dawson St is absolutely gorgeous. My British colleague was visiting recently and commented on it also. The embarrassment that has been made of Grafton st, and the even worse half finished side streets off it would get you down all the same.

Yeh dawson street is so nice, it reminds me so much of west london except london has several hundred streets like it, Dublin should have more streets that look like it considering its wealth though

Muahahaha · 08-10-2018 4:20pm

I dont like Grafton St since that re-paving. Feels like it has lost its character.

Hurrache · 08-10-2018 4:28pm

It has had very little character for years with the amount of ****ty and tacky shopfronts on it.

cgcsb · 08-10-2018 4:48pm

The paving is horrific. Stained black in parts, looks filthy. It's the one street DCC could have spent a bit of money on the paving stones instead of cheaping out on us.

MJohnston · 08-10-2018 6:15pm

bk wrote: »

On the tourist thing. I'd agree that tourists don't look at particular details like those mentioned above. However when I think of my own trips, I do have an overall impression of a city. Oh, that was a really pleasant city, I'd love to go back or that was terrible.

And now that I think about it, it is the walk-ability of the city, how accessible it is, how easy it is to get around, how nice the outdoor areas are. A city like Prague, Amsterdam, which are highly walkable, I absolutely love and can't wait to return to and rave to other people about them. A city like Atlanta, yuck, horrible and never want to return to it and wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Dublin feels like it fits in somewhere in between those two extremes. Not insane like Atlanta, but not very walkable either, too many cars and buses rushing by next to you all throughout the city center.

But I also agree we should be improving the fabric of our city for the locals first and foremost. Thing is though, what makes for a pleasant environment for tourists, usually makes for a pleasant environment for locals too, while making it easier to "sell".

I agree with the last bit and that's the most important thing, it's just when people's first instinct is to worry "what will the tourists think", I think it's pretty pointless (much like most "what will x think" ponderings).

Like New York Citt has to be one of the least pleasant places to walk, horrific traffic, and the whole place is filthy and cluttered. Yet I still absolutely love it.

L1011 · 08-10-2018 6:17pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The paving is horrific. Stained black in parts, looks filthy. It's the one street DCC could have spent a bit of money on the paving stones instead of cheaping out on us.

If they cleaned them they'd be fine

The few remaining streets with the red and white slip hazards look awful, it dated extremely badly. They are taking forever to do the replacement

monument · 08-10-2018 9:19pm

L1011 wrote: »

If they cleaned them they'd be fine

It’s next to impossible to keep unpolished grey granite clean and free of stains.

They would have been far better off picking a red, yellow, orange, green or even mixed colour stone. Dark grey might have worked better for cleaning but would be too dark and black would be doing a full circle and would be hard too keep clean if anything of colour was spilt on it.

Grey is cheap stone.

cgcsb · 09-10-2018 9:12am

L1011 wrote: »

If they cleaned them they'd be fine

The few remaining streets with the red and white slip hazards look awful, it dated extremely badly. They are taking forever to do the replacement

the decrepit red brick mixed with patches of tarmac are worse of course, but at least that's due to age. The Grafton paving is brand new and is a disaster.

L1011 · 09-10-2018 5:56pm

The red and white was nasty when new and maintained as well as dangerous in the rain - which is so rare here!

L1011 · 10-10-2018 5:07am

The existing access hours for shops need to be extended earlier when this happens - in Grafton Street for work right now and there are already goods vehicles in an hour early and they'll be pushed to be gone by 10

Neworder79 · 10-10-2018 10:43am

L1011 wrote: »

The red and white was nasty when new and maintained as well as dangerous in the rain - which is so rare here!

Everyone has their preference but I smile every time I see the remaining red brick + cream trim left on Exchequer st. Understand it had maintanance issues and long needed replacing. But visually it felt premium...soft, warm, colourful and inviting. It complimented the red brick buildings of the area. To me it gave a unique carachter and united the city center shopping area differentiating from regular pavements.

To replace it with the chosen bland recession grey stone was a real downgrade visually. May aswell have been concrete. It feels cheap, signals that this is just any other street, looks wet and ugly most of the time hilighting dirt and stains. Sad, as donald would say.

monument · 10-10-2018 11:59am

Regardless of the reasoning for its choice of it being cheap or in vogue etc, unpolished light and less so mid grey stone is the quickest granite to look dirty and easiest to stain.

Councils need to stop using it.

wakka12 · 10-10-2018 11:45pm

I think everyone is overreacting about the loss of the red brick paving, I think that looked messy and dirty and I think grafton street still looks messy and dirty, so no loss

cgcsb · 11-10-2018 10:00am

I'm not mourning the loss of red brick, I'm mourning from the vandalism DCC has committed with its cheap paving.

celtcia · 11-10-2018 12:06pm

I like blue stone! You people?

Marcusm · 11-10-2018 5:47pm

L1011 wrote: »

The red and white was nasty when new and maintained as well as dangerous in the rain - which is so rare here!

Was it really that bad? I can remember staring at Weir’s at St Patrick’s weekend in1988 as they were being installed (I think the Milltown Cemetery shooting was earlier in the day) and some scrotes picked up some uninstalled bricks and heaved them through Switzer’s Window. Proper maintenance, replacement like for like would I imagine have kept them better. Not even sure where the granite comes from but i’d Have loved to see Kilkenny limestone used. The whole More London development is paved in it in London and it seems to be holding up very well after 13 years or more.

Telchak · 17-10-2018 10:43am

Permission refused by ABP.

http://irishcycle.com/2018/10/17/breaking-college-green-plaza-refused-permission/

Hurrache · 17-10-2018 10:44am

Here's the link to their documents related to the refusal
http://www.pleanala.ie/news//JA0039/JA0039.htm

MJohnston · 17-10-2018 10:53am

Unsurprising - this project was dead as soon as elements with DCC got their payoffs from the car lobby on the Quays car ban.

Hurrache · 17-10-2018 10:57am

Traffic consideration seems to be the main reason it was rejected alright.

Infini · 17-10-2018 11:15am

Hurrache wrote: »

Traffic consideration seems to be the main reason it was rejected alright.

Honestly it shouldn't be a suprise here the other streets just arent capable of taking the traffic from closing it off. Town is a nightmare to get through as it is without more restrictions to traffic.

AlanG · 17-10-2018 11:20am

The reasons for refusal seem very logical and well thought out. The plan was too aspirational with a lack of planning on how daily users of the city would be impacted. It seemed to be a marque project for tourists and weekend visitors which would have a very negative impact on daily commuters.

cgcsb · 17-10-2018 11:21am

Shame. If DCC wasn't so corrupt the quays car ban could've solved the traffic issue and the plaza would have gotten through planning, no problem.

I hope those councilors enjoy their payouts. Time for NTA to take control of these projects, another function of local government removed due to inability to deliver.

I look forward to a fresh application in 2020.

MJohnston · 17-10-2018 11:21am

Infini wrote: »

Honestly it shouldn't be a suprise here the other streets just arent capable of taking the traffic from closing it off. Town is a nightmare to get through as it is without more restrictions to traffic.

It's a nightmare to get through because of the traffic. We should be focusing on improving things for buses and trams, not cars.

KD345 · 17-10-2018 11:28am

This is the right decision IMO, they examined the impact and realised the negatives it would have on surrounding areas. As a bus user this plan would have been disasterous for services.

cgcsb · 17-10-2018 11:31am

KD345 wrote: »

This is the right decision IMO, they examined the impact and realised the negatives it would have on surrounding areas. As a bus user this plan would have been disasterous for services.

Agreed, but of course the bus issue could have been resolved months ago by a simple car ban on the North Quays and a double bus lane. Corruption saw an end to that.

jon1981 · 17-10-2018 11:42am

The right decision. There's no real solution to here for the cross city bus services outside of Dame st. The roads in Dublin city are just far too narrow to reroute.

cgcsb · 17-10-2018 12:04pm

jon1981 wrote: »

The right decision. There's no real solution to here for the cross city bus services outside of Dame st. The roads in Dublin city are just far too narrow to reroute.

The north quays, as the modelling for Bus Connects has proven.

buffalo · 17-10-2018 12:46pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Agreed, but of course the bus issue could have been resolved months ago by a simple car ban on the North Quays and a double bus lane. Corruption saw an end to that.

Corruption is a strong word, implying bribery and maliciousness. Is there any evidence it was anything other than a lack of backbone from the council in facing down carpark owners and backlash from car commuters?

AlekSmart · 17-10-2018 1:03pm

buffalo wrote: »

Corruption is a strong word, implying bribery and maliciousness. Is there any evidence it was anything other than a lack of backbone from the council in facing down carpark owners and backlash from car commuters?

I would suspect that the opinions of the Councils Law Officer,relating to the long standing policy of the Multi Storey Car Park owners to pursue the Council for ANY negative impacts upon their businesses,played a major role in this "decision".

Always remember that the Multi-Storey Car Park timeline is virtually parallell with the rise & rise of the "CJH" era in Irish and Dublin Politics.

Nobody,even 40 years on,can stomach the prospect of a confrontation.

Back to Jarrett Walker in the studio......:D

Zebra3 · 17-10-2018 2:34pm

Shameful decision.

Another step backwards for the city.

Prioritising polluting vehicles that carry very small numbers of people over creating a healthier safer place in the heart of the city.

It’s stuff like this that causes the city to get left behind in quality of life rankings.

All to keep a small number of selfish self-entitled people happy.

bennyineire · 17-10-2018 3:28pm

Why can't then do a "cut and cover" tunnel for the front section of Trinity. Tunnel would only need to be about 100-150m long
Of course the time to do this was when Luas X was been done

wakka12 · 17-10-2018 3:43pm

bennyineire wrote: »

Why can't then do a "cut and cover" tunnel for the front section of Trinity. Tunnel would only need to be about 100-150m long
Of course the time to do this was when Luas X was been done

I agree tbh, the current situation just doesnt cut it, traffic re routing and car ban in college green would have been preferrable but if its not possible then it should be done, there should also be car tunnel around christchurch cathedral, and at the kevin street/cuffe street patrick street cathedral junctions, so sad that the area around our citys ancient and beautiful cathedrals are so completely dominated by cars

cgcsb · 17-10-2018 4:01pm

buffalo wrote: »

Corruption is a strong word, implying bribery and maliciousness. Is there any evidence it was anything other than a lack of backbone from the council in facing down carpark owners and backlash from car commuters?

Councillors are there to represent their constituents. There are literally no ordinary members of the travelling public lobbying against a car free quays. The only detractors are the car park owners, 0.01% of the electorate. How else do you explain it being voted down?

cgcsb · 17-10-2018 4:03pm

bennyineire wrote: »

Why can't then do a "cut and cover" tunnel for the front section of Trinity. Tunnel would only need to be about 100-150m long
Of course the time to do this was when Luas X was been done

The BusConnects plan to redesign the city's bus network has already been designed to avoid college green, it'd be a waste of money to build a tunnel for bus routes that would no longer use CG.

College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

Comments