BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Carawaystick · 03-11-2018 9:36pm

CatInABox wrote: »

This gave me a good laugh, the Irish Times opines on the future of Dublin.

"Official defensiveness and political cowardice, along with deep-seated inertia, have obstructed innovation in the city", which is accurate, but totally ignores their own behaviour when it comes to projects that are innovative. Their behaviour around BusConnects and Metrolink is nothing short of appalling.

See Also: their hysteria about the green line before it was built

ongarboy · 04-11-2018 9:23am

Duplicate

ongarboy · 04-11-2018 9:31am

stephenjmcd wrote: »

First time poster to this thread and bus connects is something which is badly needed. Will it happen who knows??

However one thing that stands out for me is they promise quicker journey times. How can that be delivered on when current Dublin bus journey times are only getting worse. Some drivers can do a route in half the time of others.

For example this morning's 6.10 145 to town took 1 hour 20 minutes from bray to pearse street. Simply because of driver slowness, while others will do it in 50 minutes given the time of morning.

Nothing will improve until there is consistency

Why wouldn't you have used the DART if you're going from Bray to Pearse? Surely much quicker?

Slutmonkey57b · 04-11-2018 10:05am

ongarboy wrote: »

Why wouldn't you have used the DART if you're going from Bray to Pearse? Surely much quicker?

Depending on where you live, you could be half an hour's walk from the dart.

Qrt · 04-11-2018 1:34pm

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Depending on where you live, you could be half an hour's walk from the dart.

Bray could do with a solid cycle scheme tbh.

Stephen15 · 04-11-2018 2:16pm

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Depending on where you live, you could be half an hour's walk from the dart.

Bus Connects will improve most of Bray's connectivity with the DART but people will still complain that they are losing they're direct CC connection.

AlekSmart · 04-11-2018 10:59pm

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Depending on where you live, you could be half an hour's walk from the dart.

The line still follows it's original 1834 alignment,with some Stations only being finally rendered accessible,in the 20th Century context,in the past 5 years.

The hinterland of the Dublin-Kingstown Railway has however,changed significantly in that 184 years...but let's not rush things..eh ?

haulier · 05-11-2018 9:42am

The idea of maybe having a bus earlier than 0610 from Bray [ one that might get into the city to allow an 0700 work start ? ] would appear to be beyond solving. While a walk to the DART may be a solution for those in Bray - and in some cases it might be more than 30 minutes - the same problem of late arrival arises all the way along the N11 corridor, most with no access to Dart

MJohnston · 06-11-2018 10:05pm

On the previous topic of white LED bus displays, I spotted this comparison in Dublin this morning:

Sadly the Maynooth bus was moving quickly (as was my phone) while the 77A was static, so you can't really judge the clarity from the photo. But for my part, I thought it was a lot more legible from a distance compared to the yellow text. They'd need a dimmer function for nighttime though, when it might be too bright.

KD345 · 06-11-2018 11:45pm

MJohnston wrote: »

They'd need a dimmer function for nighttime though, when it might be too bright.

The existing units already have automatic brightness control, I'd guess this is similar.

Muahahaha · 14-11-2018 7:13pm

Documents about CPOs for four of the spines are up on the Bus Connects site https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/core-bus-corridor-project/ and the public consultation opens today. They are doing it on a phased basis for the other routes.

Just had a flick over one of them (Blanch to CC). The timeline hopes to secure permission from ABP in by the end of 2020 with 2021 used for negotiating and purchasing front gardens and then construction of the spine to commence 2022 with each spine taking two years to complete. The starting date of construction of spines is to be staggered, some begin in 2022 and all are planned to be complete by 2027.

Thats if it all goes to plan. If ABP requires an oral hearing then it could add on another year to the timeline.

TheChrisD · 14-11-2018 7:24pm

Blanch corridor joining the N3 at the Snugborough Road junction. What blithering idiot thought that would be a good idea.

punisher5112 · 14-11-2018 7:41pm

This isn't enough....

These changes are needed now not in nearly 10 years.

So much could be done right now and be extremely easy such as enforcement of traffic laws and treat buses like the luas and give priority and get people to actually respect the drivers and let buses out.

It needs to be made a legal requirement to allow a bus indicating out.

Enforce bus lane use and yellow box junction use.

If they sorted new ticket machines and fares tomorrow buses would be even quicker straight away.

Enforce bus stop use and create 24 hour bus lanes in and close to the city.

More people are cycling then ever so this business of allowing parking after 7pm etc in major roads into the city should be stopped.

Designate delivery times and create safe places for delivery drivers to actually park and not allow everyone park wherever they like.

We need to be painting active bus stop markings yellow to make them stand out, double red lines like the UK where it's not permitted to stop for any reason including taxi pick up or drop off.

Anpr/CCTV to catch bus lane users including use of bus gate and contra flow bus lanes etc.

It's actually shocking what disrespect people have towards bus drivers and how hard a job we have already.

CatInABox · 14-11-2018 7:43pm

TheChrisD wrote: »

Blanch corridor joining the N3 at the Snugborough Road junction. What blithering idiot thought that would be a good idea.

It's got to join somewhere, and they're building a new bridge to cater for it. Seems like they're more than doubling the width of the bridge, turning it from a three lane, two path bridge into a seven lane, two cycle track, two path bridge. They're also removing the roundabout on the far side, so traffic can be dealt with easier on that side.

TheChrisD · 14-11-2018 8:04pm

CatInABox wrote: »

It's got to join somewhere, and they're building a new bridge to cater for it. Seems like they're more than doubling the width of the bridge, turning it from a three lane, two path bridge into a seven lane, two cycle track, two path bridge. They're also removing the roundabout on the far side, so traffic can be dealt with easier on that side.

It's still a gigantic mess of a 5-way junction, that has super long dwell times because so many common traffic routes cross here. Throwing more lanes at it isn't really going to help that.

It's even less of a good idea when you consider that there's already a decently functional easy on-off route to/from the centre in the slip road next to the Crowne Plaza; basically how the 39A does it currently. Making that bus-only would be much better for journey times.

Spanish Eyes · 14-11-2018 8:05pm

Ah here, nearly TEN years for this!

I realise it will take some time but I didn’t realise it would take that long.

cherryghost · 14-11-2018 8:12pm

Honestly shocking the timeline on these staggered phases. It's simply not enough. We needed something within the next 2 years, not 10.

punisher5112 · 14-11-2018 8:26pm

It doesn't help with bus stops being abused and taken over by taxi drivers who I find the worst offenders.

I was assaulted by one recently who wouldn't move or allow enough space to get out of a bus stop.

He gave the fingers and abuse and got out laughing.

He stood on the footpath giving abuse.

I didn't react at all and ignored him.

After waiting some time I got out to get a photo of the car and it's position in a bus stop and he hit me..... He didn't expect what he got back and sheepishly got back in his car.

This was unprovoked.

Qrt · 14-11-2018 8:33pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

It doesn't help with bus stops being abused and taken over by taxi drivers who I find the worst offenders.

I was assaulted by one recently who wouldn't move or allow enough space to get out of a bus stop.

He gave the fingers and abuse and got out laughing.

He stood on the footpath giving abuse.

I didn't react at all and ignored him.

After waiting some time I got out to get a photo of the car and it's position in a bus stop and he hit me..... He didn't expect what he got back and sheepishly got back in his car.

This was unprovoked.

My first day of college two years ago and I saw a taximan and a bus driver grabbing eachother by their collars on College Street. I side with bus drivers usually tbh.

Hurrache · 14-11-2018 8:39pm

TheChrisD wrote: »

Blanch corridor joining the N3 at the Snugborough Road junction. What blithering idiot thought that would be a good idea.

Snugborough junction is getting a big redesign.

tom1ie · 14-11-2018 9:00pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

It doesn't help with bus stops being abused and taken over by taxi drivers who I find the worst offenders.

I was assaulted by one recently who wouldn't move or allow enough space to get out of a bus stop.

He gave the fingers and abuse and got out laughing.

He stood on the footpath giving abuse.

I didn't react at all and ignored him.

After waiting some time I got out to get a photo of the car and it's position in a bus stop and he hit me..... He didn't expect what he got back and sheepishly got back in his car.

This was unprovoked.

The amount of taxis clogging up the qbc’s and bus stops is the elephant in the room. No one seems to mention this.
Taxis need to have restrictions placed on them as to what times they can and cannot use these qbc’s or indeed regular bus lanes. This should be enforced by anpr.
Of course it will take serious balls to take on the taxi federation.

Chris_5339762 · 14-11-2018 9:35pm

This won't just be fought by everyone losing land from their house, but it will be fought hammer tooth and nails by the people who realise 500+ trees are going to be cut down from the roadside to do just the first few spines.

I agree that we need to do this, but that in itself will be a crying shame. We need much more than just Metrolink in the plans.

noelfirl · 14-11-2018 10:18pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Documents about CPOs for four of the spines are up on the Bus Connects site https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/core-bus-corridor-project/ and the public consultation opens today. They are doing it on a phased basis for the other routes.

Interesting to see on the Lucan corridor there is to be bus stops on the N4/Chapelizod Bypass, built into the cutting above Chapelizod Hill Road.

Always wondered travelling along there why such an approach hadn't been considered. Could solve a big chunk of the Chapelizod bottleneck issue at a stroke (at least for the non-infirm).

Muahahaha · 14-11-2018 10:24pm

cherryghost wrote: »

Honestly shocking the timeline on these staggered phases. It's simply not enough. We needed something within the next 2 years, not 10.

Felt pretty dissappointed seeing the timelines myself. The earliest any spine is going to built is 2023 and thats only if there arent any delays in ABP. All spines wont be finished until 2027 which incidentally is when Metrolink is earmarked for opening. So even though the city is at capacity now we still have another decade of waiting for any solutions.

punisher5112 · 14-11-2018 10:26pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Felt pretty dissappointed seeing the timelines myself. The earliest any spine is going to built is 2023 and thats only if there arent any delays in ABP. All spines wont be finished until 2027 which incidentally is when Metrolink is earmarked for opening. So even though the city is at capacity now we still have another decade of waiting for any solutions.

Absolutely shocking really is.

Zipppy · 14-11-2018 10:31pm

Muahahaha wrote:

Felt pretty dissappointed seeing the timelines myself. The earliest any spine is going to built is 2023 and thats only if there arent any delays in ABP. All spines wont be finished until 2027 which incidentally is when Metrolink is earmarked for opening. So even though the city is at capacity now we still have another decade of waiting for any solutions.

And......

It'll never happen

Hotblack Desiato · 14-11-2018 11:31pm

If we were a communist country we could have a full metro system built by 2023 :cool: :pac:

David McWilliams (who does spoof a fair bit) did a very good podcast on the Irish Times Politics podcast the other day. Everything in this country is subordinate to private property interests. This dictates where we live, how much it costs us, and how long it takes us to travel to work and carry out the other essential activities of life. The NIMBYs and BANANAs are firmly in control and keeping their land values up. The rest of us seem content enough in the hope that one day we'll be a NIMBY or BANANA too. Yet when poor people vote Trump in the US in the hope that some day they'll be rich, we laugh at them.

Qrt · 14-11-2018 11:44pm

I had a look at the Clongriffin CBC. Not happy with a lot of the junctions towards the end, and the general lack of real provision on Clongriffin Main Street. One thing that stuck out was the elimination of the Artane Roundabout and replacement with a signalised junction, and it got me thinking... would they have the bravery to do this with the Walkinstown Roundabout?

Hurrache · 14-11-2018 11:45pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I agree that we need to do this, but that in itself will be a crying shame.

It struck me too. In other countries they uproot the tree and replant them.

cgcsb · 15-11-2018 12:08am

Time line is disappointing but that's how long it takes in extremely democratic systems. When i worked in Dubai projects weren't anywhere near this frustrating. A decision was made and that was it. No objections process, complaining on social media would get the coppers to your door. It didnt even matter if you had a few indian laborers die in the process. Here every vacuous moron has to be entertained to the last minute. These are two extremely opposite systems. Maybe we could find a middle ground.

Zebra3 · 15-11-2018 8:44am

Remembering talking to a bloke from London a few years ago.

His opinion was that a lot of the reasoning behind hosting the Olympics was to fast track infrastructural projects.

cgcsb · 15-11-2018 10:27am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Remembering talking to a bloke from London a few years ago.

His opinion was that a lot of the reasoning behind hosting the Olympics was to fast track infrastructural projects.

Even in the UK, a more authoritarian society than Ireland, the moaning can be so frustrating.

Hurrache · 15-11-2018 10:52am

cgcsb wrote: »

the moaning can be so frustrating.

Seems like you'd be happier living in a dictatorial society.

cgcsb · 15-11-2018 10:58am

Hurrache wrote: »

Seems like you'd be happier living in a dictatorial society.

Dictatorships have their advantages over democracy in some aspects. See Brexit for an example of how democracy fails spectacularly. The reality is that not everybody is bright and forward thinking, despite free education and free access to the sum of human knowledge through the internet. I'd advocate a sort of a hybrid technocratic society that'd be peaceful and somewhat democratic but it wouldn't give equal consideration to the opinion of daily mail readers and the like. Social media has given us the notion that everyone's opinion is equal, when plainly that is not true. Alas this is way beyond the scope of this thread.

CatInABox · 15-11-2018 11:37am

cgcsb wrote: »

Dictatorships have their advantages over democracy in some aspects. See Brexit for an example of how democracy fails spectacularly. The reality is that not everybody is bright and forward thinking, despite free education and free access to the sum of human knowledge through the internet. I'd advocate a sort of a hybrid technocratic society that'd be peaceful and somewhat democratic but it wouldn't give equal consideration to the opinion of daily mail readers and the like. Social media has given us the notion that everyone's opinion is equal, when plainly that is not true. Alas this is way beyond the scope of this thread.

I was going to respond, but that'd just drag the thread even further off topic.

As it is, I'm quite impressed with the work that the NTA have put in on this, they seem to be learning from their mistakes with other projects/consultations, which I think bodes well.

n!ghtmancometh · 15-11-2018 11:45am

Without the infrastructure in place the people losing direct city routes are being really screwed, as the routes for them to change over to will still be bunched and unpredictable due to the current crap traffic situation. Absolute shambles.

Saw an article in the indo with some lad who lives in a massive house with massive garden on the Navan Road complaining that when they take a bit of that massive garden it will be like living on the M50, and how him and all his neighbours will be opposing the proposals.

Never going to be built in other words.

Qrt · 15-11-2018 1:08pm

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/it-will-be-like-living-on-the-m50-residents-set-to-lose-gardens-to-bus-lanes-struggle-to-see-beyond-the-negatives-37530419.html

This is the worst thing I've ever seen.

cherryghost · 15-11-2018 1:40pm

Did they handpick people living in the greater dublin area with large gardens?!

As it is, I'm quite impressed with the work that the NTA have put in on this, they seem to be learning from their mistakes with other projects/consultations, which I think bodes well.

Sorry but a 10 year plan that might fall through within 3 years is not good enough. The situation is beyond critical in many places.

Spanish Eyes · 15-11-2018 2:08pm

I do hope NTA do the so called "easy" spines first. Lucan to CC seems need very little CPO, but I do realise that junctions and so on will take time. Still, it might be good for commuters to see the advantages within a couple of years, rather than having to wait ten years, even if it is staggered. But maybe that's what they mean.

I am sorry I just gulped when I saw the timeline. Why does everything seem to take forever in this country, when it is for the common good?

We will all be staggering around waiting for this!

Spanish Eyes · 15-11-2018 2:12pm

Gardens on the Bray Road in Foxrock were cpo'd back in the day for the widening of the road. But I think big walls were build for the houses as part of the deal.

If you choose to live on a road that is busy and has buses going outside your door, well it is never going to be quiet like a cul de sac. And the chances are there will be changes.

Can home owners block a CPO anyway? The word "compulsory" is staring out at me.

I suppose if the pay off is good enough they might comply, but afaik there are rules for valuing cpo land.

sharper · 15-11-2018 2:35pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I am sorry I just gulped when I saw the timeline. Why does everything seem to take forever in this country, when it is for the common good?

I honestly have a hard time fitting a 10 year timeline for this into my brain. When I think of 10 years and billions spent I imagine sleek bullet trains hovering over tracks going hundreds of miles per hour.

This plan would be fine if it started 10 years ago and was coming online now to meet current demand. Instead they're planning infrastructure now that would only be adequate for current demand.

What are projected traffic and transport levels for 2027? Are they going to wait until 2027 and then spend a few years thinking what's next and roll out the next plans in 2030 due to be finished by 2040?

Going by the official stats for residential units nearly 9000 commenced in 2018. I don't expect that number to drop off anytime soon so we're going to be adding thousands per year to the roads and transport network.

cgcsb · 15-11-2018 3:31pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I am sorry I just gulped when I saw the timeline. Why does everything seem to take forever in this country, when it is for the common good?

We will all be staggering around waiting for this!

We have a hyper democratic system. It could be worse though, look at Switzerland.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-11-2018 4:10pm

Not so much hyper-democratic imho as anti-democratic. It's far too easy for a small number of people, or even a single individual, to block anything. Apple to Athenry anyone? Doesn't matter that a majority of people would be strongly in favour of a project.

In fairness the Malahide Road garden seen in that article is not huge, but they're probably only taking 1.5 metres or so on each side of the road. As for the Navan Road wan, my comments would be unprintable!

plodder · 15-11-2018 4:29pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not so much hyper-democratic imho as anti-democratic. It's far too easy for a small number of people, or even a single individual, to block anything. Apple to Athenry anyone? Doesn't matter that a majority of people would be strongly in favour of a project.

In fairness the Malahide Road garden seen in that article is not huge, but they're probably only taking 1.5 metres or so on each side of the road. As for the Navan Road wan, my comments would be unprintable!

I think anyone is going to be a bit shocked when they find out that some part of their property is going to be CPO'd but I've seen far worse in the UK, like a semi-d house sliced in half, ie one of the houses removed completely and replaced with a road. The Navan Rd. one looks not bad at all. There does come a point though where maybe it makes more sense to CPO the whole house as you don't want to be so close to the traffic that you will hear it day and night.

CatInABox · 15-11-2018 4:50pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Can home owners block a CPO anyway? The word "compulsory" is staring out at me.

I suppose if the pay off is good enough they might comply, but afaik there are rules for valuing cpo land.

Once the NTA can prove that it's needed, then there's nothing that the owners can do about it.

As to the disappointment over the fact that it's going to take so long, I can definitely understand the frustration, I agree that all this stuff should have been done years ago, but the recession put everything back by ten years. That's not the NTAs fault. I'm raging at the government at the time that decided not to invest anything in Dublin infrastructure at the time.

sharper · 15-11-2018 5:11pm

CatInABox wrote: »

As to the disappointment over the fact that it's going to take so long, I can definitely understand the frustration, I agree that all this stuff should have been done years ago, but the recession put everything back by ten years. That's not the NTAs fault. I'm raging at the government at the time that decided not to invest anything in Dublin infrastructure at the time.

We are where we are and all that.

The problem I see is neither the government nor NTA seem to even acknowledge improvements are needed immediately. They should be looking at what can be done now and over the next year to improve things.

punisher5112's list of suggestions was excellent and they don't need 10 years(ish) to implement.

marno21 · 15-11-2018 5:12pm

Qrt wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/it-will-be-like-living-on-the-m50-residents-set-to-lose-gardens-to-bus-lanes-struggle-to-see-beyond-the-negatives-37530419.html

This is the worst thing I've ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8AIh2qoSnM

CatInABox · 15-11-2018 5:42pm

sharper wrote: »

punisher5112's list of suggestions was excellent and they don't need 10 years(ish) to implement.

They were excellent, and some of them are already in the pipeline. Enforcement is a major issue though, wish the Gov would get the finger out on that one.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-11-2018 5:57pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I'm raging at the government at the time that decided not to invest anything in Dublin infrastructure at the time.

They were fine with building a motorway in the middle of nowhere though :rolleyes:

cgcsb · 15-11-2018 6:03pm

What could be done now/next week:

ban cars from the north quays, George's St and College Green with gardai enforcement every rush hour for the next 14 days, including issuance of fines.

watch bus journey times plummit and then take steps to make those changes permanent, cameras and new lane layout, build liffey cycle way etc.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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