How to negotiate a rent decrease

KiKi III · 18-05-2020 10:05pm #1

My housemate and I moved into a house in Dublin 6 three years ago. At the time the rent was €1600, now increased to €1750.

We accepted the two rental increases (max amount) because to move would have cost a lot more, which is no longer the case. There are currently a number of two bedroom properties in our area being advertised for €1200, €1400 or €1500. The increased supply is having an immediate effect on rent prices in the area.

We take care of the place, we always pay our rent on time and we don’t ask for a lot. I’d like to think we’re considered good tenants.

The landlord owns about 20 houses in the area. I don’t know him personally, we only communicate through the agency.

I’m self-employed and my income has reduced, while my housemate was laid off for a few weeks and just went back to work today.

We think we’re in a reasonable position to renegotiate our rent, but don’t know the best way to approach it.

Do I just lay out the facts as above? Do I say we’re going to move out if they don’t accommodate us somehow? (Realistically this would be a fairly empty threat, I don’t actually want to move house)

Our goal would be to get back to our original rent of €1600. They’ll probably want to meet us in the middle so do we ask for €1500 and move to that?

BrokenArrows · 18-05-2020 11:05pm

KiKi III wrote: »

My housemate and I moved into a house in Dublin 6 three years ago. At the time the rent was €1600, now increased to €1750.

We accepted the two rental increases (max amount) because to move would have cost a lot more, which is no longer the case. There are currently a number of two bedroom properties in our area being advertised for €1200, €1400 or €1500. The increased supply is having an immediate effect on rent prices in the area.

We take care of the place, we always pay our rent on time and we don’t ask for a lot. I’d like to think we’re considered good tenants.

The landlord owns about 20 houses in the area. I don’t know him personally, we only communicate through the agency.

I’m self-employed and my income has reduced, while my housemate was laid off for a few weeks and just went back to work today.

We think we’re in a reasonable position to renegotiate our rent, but don’t know the best way to approach it.

Do I just lay out the facts as above? Do I say we’re going to move out if they don’t accommodate us somehow? (Realistically this would be a fairly empty threat, I don’t actually want to move house)

Our goal would be to get back to our original rent of €1600. They’ll probably want to meet us in the middle so do we ask for €1500 and move to that?

Send a list of similar stuff from Daft showing the lower prices and ask for €1500. Fairly straightforward.

But you would be mad to stay if they say no.

Ray Palmer · 19-05-2020 9:44am

Paying your rent on time and being little bother is the basics not anything making you a good tenant. Besides how your income has dropped has the landlord changed anything to decrease the property? Do you have a lease?

KiKi III · 19-05-2020 10:00am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Paying your rent on time and being little bother is the basics not anything making you a good tenant. Besides how your income has dropped has the landlord changed anything to decrease the property? Do you have a lease?

What else would be required to be considered a good tenant?

I signed a lease when we moved in, but it was with a different agency and for 12 months at €1600. We have now been there three years and accepted two rent increases without complaint because it was in line with the market.

However, the market has now changed and there are similar properties charging a lot less. So no, the landlord hasn’t changed anything but the market has. It’s unlikely he’ll get the €1750 he’s charging us if we were to move out and the agency put it back on daft.

Ray Palmer · 19-05-2020 11:26am

KiKi III wrote: »

What else would be required to be considered a good tenant?

I signed a lease when we moved in, but it was with a different agency and for 12 months at €1600. We have now been there three years and accepted two rent increases without complaint because it was in line with the market.

However, the market has now changed and there are similar properties charging a lot less. So no, the landlord hasn’t changed anything but the market has. It’s unlikely he’ll get the €1750 he’s charging us if we were to move out and the agency put it back on daft.

A good tenant would need to do more than their basic requirements. You stated you met your basic requirements therefore just not bad but that doesn't make you good by default.

Give your proper notice for length of time you stayed.

KiKi III · 19-05-2020 11:30am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

A good tenant would need to do more than their basic requirements. You stated you met your basic requirements therefore just not bad but that doesn't make you good by default.

Give your proper notice for length of time you stayed.

Cool. Any advice on how to negotiate a rent decrease?

GocRh · 19-05-2020 11:32am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

A good tenant would need to do more than their basic requirements. You stated you met your basic requirements therefore just not bad but that doesn't make you good by default.

Give your proper notice for length of time you stayed.

What is a good tenant then? A tenant that refurbishes the apartment and doesn't charge the landlord? That pays above market rates or bids for a property?

Quite a unrealistic view of what a good tenant is IMHO...
Good manners, paying rent on time and looking after the property should certainly make any tenant a good tenant.

GocRh · 19-05-2020 11:37am

KiKi III wrote: »

Cool. Any advice on how to negotiate a rent decrease?

Hopefully some realistic advice as I happen to know people who managed to negotiate a rent reduction.

They've all had a temporary loss of income due to covid (employer reduced wages by 10%). What they've managed to secure was a temporary reduction in rent to match their loss of income.

Now the key here is the nature of the reduction - temporary. Given how fluid the situation is it is unlikely that any landlord will accept a permanent reduction. You'll just have to wait it out, which is what everyone seems to be doing.

KiKi III · 19-05-2020 11:38am

GocRh wrote: »

What is a good tenant then? A tenant that refurbishes the apartment and doesn't charge the landlord? That pays above market rates or bids for a property?

Quite a unrealistic view of what a good tenant is IMHO...
Good manners, paying rent on time and looking after the property should certainly make any tenant a good tenant.

Yup, I’d have thought the fact that we’re there for a significant amount of time with no issues would count in our favour too.

And we don’t have a lot of dealings with the agency but we’re always polite when we do.

When we have made requests like asking for curtains because the place gets cold in winter, they were turned down and we didn’t make a big deal of it.

Fol20 · 19-05-2020 11:51am

You mention that you see properties for less than your one. Are they in the same location, ie same size, same apartment or house etc?
What is the condition of the others like?
Are there any available properties that are also 1750?
A drop of 10pc is quite high. I know I’d personally decline it but it depends on the situation. This drop might only be temporary and once the full lockdown is over. Rental prices might go back to normal - I know in my own case, one tenant wanted to leave and I offered them the place at 50pc for one month when we were peaking with covid and then it will be back to normal price, they were leaving so it was fine but in your case if you intend to stay on. Dropping the amount by 10pc could take 2 years or more to get it back up to that level.

Ray Palmer · 19-05-2020 11:55am

GocRh wrote: »

What is a good tenant then? A tenant that refurbishes the apartment and doesn't charge the landlord? That pays above market rates or bids for a property?

Quite a unrealistic view of what a good tenant is IMHO...
Good manners, paying rent on time and looking after the property should certainly make any tenant a good tenant.

You just described the basic obligations. That does not make you good nor bad. The same way a good landlord is not simply somebody who does what they are meant but goes above and beyond the basics.

It is very simple view and if you judge a minimum as good you must make a great employee.

OP
I told you how to negotiate, give notice. Are you sure the abundant rentals are not short term leases?

Thoie · 19-05-2020 12:05pm

KiKi III wrote: »

Cool. Any advice on how to negotiate a rent decrease?

The first rule of negotiation is to know where you draw the line, and not to make empty threats.

You've already said you don't actually want to move. Obviously the agency doesn't know this, but it puts you on the back foot immediately. So you're not really "negotiating", just "requesting".

I think all you can say is "we've been here 6 years, have never given any trouble. We have been impacted by the current situation, and would like to request a reduction in rent to €1,600 a month, which is still higher than other similar properties in the area."

KiKi III · 19-05-2020 12:05pm

Fol20 wrote: »

You mention that you see properties for less than your one. Are they in the same location, ie same size, same apartment or house etc?
What is the condition of the others like?
Are there any available properties that are also 1750?
A drop of 10pc is quite high. I know I’d personally decline it but it depends on the situation. This drop might only be temporary and once the full lockdown is over. Rental prices might go back to normal - I know in my own case, one tenant wanted to leave and I offered them the place at 50pc for one month when we were peaking with covid and then it will be back to normal price, they were leaving so it was fine but in your case if you intend to stay on. Dropping the amount by 10pc could take 2 years or more to get it back up to that level.

The places I’m comparing to are within 500-600m of where I live now and also two bedrooms of similar size. Ours might be slightly more recently done up.

There are some that are still being advertised at €1750+ (this is Dublin 6 after all) but I think the agency would find it hard to get it for ours as it’s a small place. They are basically two single rooms that they have shoehorned double beds into.

We paid 50% of our rent last month as we were both on the Covid payment but that is to be paid back.

I doubt the rent prices will go back to normal. There’s a huge amount of International students in the area who most likely won’t be back this year, plus the increases supply from Airbnb lets now on the market.

Rent is due on the 6th so I’ll take another look on daft 10 days or so before it’s due and see if the situation has changed further.

If most properties now being advertised are in the €1400-€1500 range that’s what we’ll ask for but will agree to €1600.

Batgurl · 19-05-2020 12:07pm

GocRh wrote: »

Hopefully some realistic advice as I happen to know people who managed to negotiate a rent reduction.

They've all had a temporary loss of income due to covid (employer reduced wages by 10%). What they've managed to secure was a temporary reduction in rent to match their loss of income.

Now the key here is the nature of the reduction - temporary. Given how fluid the situation is it is unlikely that any landlord will accept a permanent reduction. You'll just have to wait it out, which is what everyone seems to be doing.

The key here is the nature of the market. The landlord undoubtedly raised the rent because “supply and demand indicated that that’s what the market rate for the property is”. It didn’t matter if the OP’s salary increased to meet the market demand.

Therefore now the OP is in the driving seat. What they need to decide before they do anything is whether they are willing to take action if they don’t get an decrease? If not, then all they can do is ask. If they are, then they can negotiate the same as any job offer.

I’d say start by showing them comparable properties in the area. Even better if you have viewed and been accepted to any. Don’t mention salary or pay cuts. Just talk about the market. The increase in rentals properties available. The decrease in rent prices. And then, if you don’t get a reduction, you move.

Fol20 · 19-05-2020 6:50pm

KiKi III wrote: »

The places I’m comparing to are within 500-600m of where I live now and also two bedrooms of similar size. Ours might be slightly more recently done up.

There are some that are still being advertised at €1750+ (this is Dublin 6 after all) but I think the agency would find it hard to get it for ours as it’s a small place. They are basically two single rooms that they have shoehorned double beds into.

We paid 50% of our rent last month as we were both on the Covid payment but that is to be paid back.

I doubt the rent prices will go back to normal. There’s a huge amount of International students in the area who most likely won’t be back this year, plus the increases supply from Airbnb lets now on the market.

Rent is due on the 6th so I’ll take another look on daft 10 days or so before it’s due and see if the situation has changed further.

If most properties now being advertised are in the €1400-€1500 range that’s what we’ll ask for but will agree to €1600.

Personally based on tHe info you have provided so far. I probably wouldn’t give you any reduction for a few reasons.
1)Once you decrease rent. It takes much longer to increase rent.
2)the extra influx of Airbnb will end soon as there are only so many that will change to standard rentals and most of them have already done this
3)if the lockdown continues as per the phases the government have setup. Most industries will
Be back to semi normal in 1-2months
4)the fact they have already granted you 50pc payment and now you are back for more so soon would annoy me personally and at that point I’d probably just say to myself “I’d prefer if you were out. I’d keep the 50pc from your deposit to get my money back quicker and get in a full paying tenant again”
5)movement of people has slowed down and come to a standstill due to covid but as things open up, people will go back to normal and demand has still not decreased.
6) I do see house purchase prices decreasing but at the end of the day people still need to live somewhere so demand for rents will remain as is in my opinion.

You can ask if you want as you don’t have much to loose. Personally I would remember it and wouldn’t give much leaway in the future considering you already got 50pc rent payment.

guyfawkes5 · 19-05-2020 7:24pm

Thoie wrote: »

The first rule of negotiation is to know where you draw the line, and not to make empty threats.

You've already said you don't actually want to move. Obviously the agency doesn't know this, but it puts you on the back foot immediately. So you're not really "negotiating", just "requesting".

I think all you can say is "we've been here 6 years, have never given any trouble. We have been impacted by the current situation, and would like to request a reduction in rent to €1,600 a month, which is still higher than other similar properties in the area."

I'd largely agree with this.

Going the route of "We're intending to hand in our notice as we intend to rent a similar property for cheaper, we have not signed yet however" would obviously give this a lot more bite, but you don't want to go there and risk your current place, so you might be left just making a polite request.

KiKi III · 19-05-2020 9:26pm

Fol20 wrote: »

Personally based on tHe info you have provided so far. I probably wouldn’t give you any reduction for a few reasons.
1)Once you decrease rent. It takes much longer to increase rent.
2)the extra influx of Airbnb will end soon as there are only so many that will change to standard rentals and most of them have already done this
3)if the lockdown continues as per the phases the government have setup. Most industries will
Be back to semi normal in 1-2months
4)the fact they have already granted you 50pc payment and now you are back for more so soon would annoy me personally and at that point I’d probably just say to myself “I’d prefer if you were out. I’d keep the 50pc from your deposit to get my money back quicker and get in a full paying tenant again”
5)movement of people has slowed down and come to a standstill due to covid but as things open up, people will go back to normal and demand has still not decreased.
6) I do see house purchase prices decreasing but at the end of the day people still need to live somewhere so demand for rents will remain as is in my opinion.

You can ask if you want as you don’t have much to loose. Personally I would remember it and wouldn’t give much leaway in the future considering you already got 50pc rent payment.

I think you misunderstood. They allowed us to delay paying 50% of our rent, we still have to pay it, just a few weeks later.

I doubt the landlord will take it as personally as you are talking about; he has hundreds of tenants across many properties.

I imagine his primary concern will be whether he could find a new tenant easily who would pay the €1750. I very much doubt it.

KiKi III · 19-05-2020 11:03pm

Just found out one of the apartments upstairs is becoming vacant as the Spanish girl who lives in it isn’t coming back.

It’ll be interesting and informative to see what her apartment is advertised at. Hers is a one bed.

theballz · 20-05-2020 12:24am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You just described the basic obligations. That does not make you good nor bad. The same way a good landlord is not simply somebody who does what they are meant but goes above and beyond the basics.

It is very simple view and if you judge a minimum as good you must make a great employee.

OP
I told you how to negotiate, give notice. Are you sure the abundant rentals are not short term leases?

You still don’t seem to be able to the answer the question of - what makes a good tenant?

the_syco · 20-05-2020 1:03am

KiKi III wrote: »

The landlord owns about 20 houses in the area.

Are any of the prices that you intend to quote owned by the landlord?

Ray Palmer · 20-05-2020 10:58am

theballz wrote: »

You still don’t seem to be able to the answer the question of - what makes a good tenant?

No I answered it you just want everything spelt out. Above the basic requirements makes you good.

If a tenant rings a landlord because there is a leak at 2 am without attempting to shut the water off is a bad tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and rings the next day is a normal tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and arranges a plumber after telling the landlord is a good tenant. The tenant that shuts off the water and fixes the leak is excellent.

From a landlord who gets the call and says shut off the water is a normal landlord and calls a plumber the next day. The LL that calls down the next day and fixes it himself is a good landlord. The one that calls down straight after the call to switch water off for them and fixes the leak straight away is excellent.

Not hard to see what is above and beyond

GocRh · 20-05-2020 11:15am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

No I answered it you just want everything spelt out. Above the basic requirements makes you good.

If a tenant rings a landlord because there is a leak at 2 am without attempting to shut the water off is a bad tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and rings the next day is a normal tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and arranges a plumber after telling the landlord is a good tenant. The tenant that shuts off the water and fixes the leak is excellent.

From a landlord who gets the call and says shut off the water is a normal landlord and calls a plumber the next day. The LL that calls down the next day and fixes it himself is a good landlord. The one that calls down straight after the call to switch water off for them and fixes the leak straight away is excellent.

Not hard to see what is above and beyond

That's a rather dystopian view of what a good tenant should be! Doing what the LL should do and never bothering the LL even when they're 'at fault'.
Are you a LL?

Fol20 · 20-05-2020 11:29am

KiKi III wrote: »

I think you misunderstood. They allowed us to delay paying 50% of our rent, we still have to pay it, just a few weeks later.

I doubt the landlord will take it as personally as you are talking about; he has hundreds of tenants across many properties.

I imagine his primary concern will be whether he could find a new tenant easily who would pay the €1750. I very much doubt it.

I understood the dynamic, I just know they pretty much had no choice but to allow it. Then the fact you come to them again shortly after asking for delay in payment would annoy me.

If you think he won’t get 1750 fair enough but I’d personally prefer to hold out until the dust settles before I lower the rental price.

Homelander · 20-05-2020 11:31am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

No I answered it you just want everything spelt out. Above the basic requirements makes you good.

If a tenant rings a landlord because there is a leak at 2 am without attempting to shut the water off is a bad tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and rings the next day is a normal tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and arranges a plumber after telling the landlord is a good tenant. The tenant that shuts off the water and fixes the leak is excellent.

From a landlord who gets the call and says shut off the water is a normal landlord and calls a plumber the next day. The LL that calls down the next day and fixes it himself is a good landlord. The one that calls down straight after the call to switch water off for them and fixes the leak straight away is excellent.

Not hard to see what is above and beyond

This has to be trolling.

A tenant who always pays on time, has positive/polite interactions with the landlord and doesn't bother the landlord unnecessarily, is a 'good' tenant in the eyes of rational people.

I'd say you'd be a delight for references. "So, Ray, was John a good tenant"?

(Ray, thinking back to that time when John, who has lived there for 5 years, always paid on time, always been courteous and polite to Ray and never bothered him unnecessarily, had the audacity to ring him and inform him that there had been a leak the previous night and he had shut off the water - and asked if Ray, the landlord, could arrange for it to be fixed)

"No.....I would say he was just more of a normal tenant if you get my drift".

Ray Palmer · 20-05-2020 11:31am

GocRh wrote: »

That's a rather dystopian view of what a good tenant should be! Doing what the LL should do and never bothering the LL even when they're 'at fault'.
Are you a LL?

I don't think you understand the word "dystopian". Doing the basics doesn't make you "good" it makes you basic. Where is the landlord in that situation at fault? Doing things the easiest way possible is good for everyone.

What is so terrible about a tenant switching off the water themselves and calling a plumber? If they owned the place would they leave the leak all night?

Yes I am a landlord and arrived at 2:30 am to shut off the water because the tenant couldn't find the shut off when told. They drunkenly tripped and smash the sink and broke the taps off. Are they a good or bad tenant in your eyes?

GocRh · 20-05-2020 12:11pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I don't think you understand the word "dystopian". Doing the basics doesn't make you "good" it makes you basic. Where is the landlord in that situation at fault? Doing things the easiest way possible is good for everyone.

What is so terrible about a tenant switching off the water themselves and calling a plumber? If they owned the place would they leave the leak all night?

Yes I am a landlord and arrived at 2:30 am to shut off the water because the tenant couldn't find the shut off when told. They drunkenly tripped and smash the sink and broke the taps off. Are they a good or bad tenant in your eyes?

You're a LL and had a very poor experience with a tenant, I guess that explains your opinion, and we are all entitled to have our own opinions... not arguing with that.

I'm totally fine with a tenant shutting off the pipes - if they are provided with instructions on where to find the shut off valve by the LL to begin with.
What I don't agree with is the tenant calling a plumber and arranging the repairs - the LL will pay for the plumber and should be the one responsible to get a quote, send a professional to do the job and ensuring that the job has been adequately carried out. After all the LL owns the property and needs to ensure it will be properly maintained.
If at a later stage it is determined that the tenant was at fault, the LL has every right to pursue compensation. Until responsibility for the issue is established, the LL is responsible and liable for the repair. That's what a deposit is for - anything that goes beyond normal wear and tear.

So the tenant doing a quick 'fix' as instructed and AUTHORISED by the LL - yes, totally agree. Tenant providing the repair themselves, and not consulting the LL - strongly disagree.

Ray Palmer · 21-05-2020 2:41pm

GocRh wrote: »

You're a LL and had a very poor experience with a tenant, I guess that explains your opinion, and we are all entitled to have our own opinions... not arguing with that.

I'm totally fine with a tenant shutting off the pipes - if they are provided with instructions on where to find the shut off valve by the LL to begin with.
What I don't agree with is the tenant calling a plumber and arranging the repairs - the LL will pay for the plumber and should be the one responsible to get a quote, send a professional to do the job and ensuring that the job has been adequately carried out. After all the LL owns the property and needs to ensure it will be properly maintained.
If at a later stage it is determined that the tenant was at fault, the LL has every right to pursue compensation. Until responsibility for the issue is established, the LL is responsible and liable for the repair. That's what a deposit is for - anything that goes beyond normal wear and tear.

So the tenant doing a quick 'fix' as instructed and AUTHORISED by the LL - yes, totally agree. Tenant providing the repair themselves, and not consulting the LL - strongly disagree.

I can assure you I have dealt with many more tenants than you have dealt with landlords. If this was the worst experience I encountered I'd be laughing.

I also probably managed more people than you have. If the measure of a good employee was the meet their basic requirements of work companies would fail.

You want to define good as meeting basic requirements. Nowhere in the rest of context is that considered good.

Every place I rent has a book explaining where the services are and how to switch them off. How to change the light bulbs and what to do in standard situations. Still get calls about riddiculious things that are in the books. One guy would ring me every time he tripped a fuse. Went down and straight away see he has a faulty cable on his stereo. He never mentioned the fuse tripped when he plugged it in but did want me to buy him a new one

handlemaster · 21-05-2020 4:47pm

OP your house mate was off work for a few weeks and it sound like the rent it not a problem. Why would the landlord reduce the rent. You want to break the terms of the tenancy I would say that is not been a good tenant. Also you say you dont ask for much what have you previously asked for and what was the reply ? This will determine alot of what the real relationship is like. If the landlord reduces the rent. Would you agreed to put it back up to market rate when the market turns ? Just because there are properties in the area at a certain price doesn't say much , all properties are different and until you look at them and then if you want it you might not get it.

The Student · 21-05-2020 5:36pm

KiKi III wrote: »

What else would be required to be considered a good tenant?

I signed a lease when we moved in, but it was with a different agency and for 12 months at €1600. We have now been there three years and accepted two rent increases without complaint because it was in line with the market.

However, the market has now changed and there are similar properties charging a lot less. So no, the landlord hasn’t changed anything but the market has. It’s unlikely he’ll get the €1750 he’s charging us if we were to move out and the agency put it back on daft.

Ok ask the landlord to reduce the rent if he refuses then mobnb.and face the consequences of breaking your lease. This is purely a commercial transaction. If you are in a rpz then I suspect the landlord was not getting market rent over the last couple of years and the additional properties available are most likely air bnb

KiKi III · 22-05-2020 8:16am

The Student wrote: »

Ok ask the landlord to reduce the rent if he refuses then mobnb.and face the consequences of breaking your lease. This is purely a commercial transaction. If you are in a rpz then I suspect the landlord was not getting market rent over the last couple of years and the additional properties available are most likely air bnb

Where did you get the idea that I want to break my lease? I want to renegotiate the terms, it’s a fairly different thing.

Anecdotally, I know a lot of non-Irish in Dublin are moving to their home countries, and irish people who work for Facebook etc moving back to their home county because their working from home until at least Christmas. The supply coming on isn’t just Airbnb. Also, a lot of international students who would usually be arriving in August/ September simply won’t be.

I don’t really care about the good tenant/ bad tenant argument. We could definitely say I’m a long-term and reliable tenant if that makes it easier to understand.

Right now there is a 3 bedroom on my street for €100 less per month than my 2 bed. I know my landlord has a good few properties vacant at the moment because I can see them on Daft (exact same fittings and decor as mine)

Anyway, thanks for your input. Having read a bit online I understand it’s better to speak to the agency over the phone than email in the first instance so I’ll do that.

I’ll explain that we’re considering moving to one of the similar but cheaper properties in the area, but that we would consider staying if they could reach some compromise with us on rent.

The Student · 22-05-2020 8:44am

KiKi III wrote: »

Where did you get the idea that I want to break my lease? I want to renegotiate the terms, it’s a fairly different thing.

Anecdotally, I know a lot of non-Irish in Dublin are moving to their home countries, and irish people who work for Facebook etc moving back to their home county because their working from home until at least Christmas. The supply coming on isn’t just Airbnb. Also, a lot of international students who would usually be arriving in August/ September simply won’t be.

I don’t really care about the good tenant/ bad tenant argument. We could definitely say I’m a long-term and reliable tenant if that makes it easier to understand.

Right now there is a 3 bedroom on my street for €100 less per month than my 2 bed. I know my landlord has a good few properties vacant at the moment because I can see them on Daft (exact same fittings and decor as mine)

Anyway, thanks for your input. Having read a bit online I understand it’s better to speak to the agency over the phone than email in the first instance so I’ll do that.

I’ll explain that we’re considering moving to one of the similar but cheaper properties in the area, but that we would consider staying if they could reach some compromise with us on rent.

You were getting below market rent for the last couple of years so. I am a landlord in a rpz and both of my properties are 20% and 33% below market rate.

You are looking to reduce your rent which we all would try if you can that's a rational business decision. Personally I would not agree because of the anti landlord stance of the Govt.

The landlord does not know the long term implications of their agreeing to a reduction. I would rent it for short term of 5 months at a time to give me the flexibility to hold the rent at the normal rates after covid and the new normal.

the_syco · 22-05-2020 4:46pm

KiKi III wrote: »

I’m self-employed and my income has reduced, while my housemate was laid off for a few weeks and just went back to work today.

We think we’re in a reasonable position to renegotiate our rent, but don’t know the best way to approach it.

The above is the reason why you need to reduce it. You need a business reason to reduce it.

KiKi III wrote: »

Anecdotally, I know a lot of non-Irish in Dublin are moving to their home countries, and irish people who work for Facebook etc moving back to their home county because their working from home until at least Christmas. The supply coming on isn’t just Airbnb. Also, a lot of international students who would usually be arriving in August/ September simply won’t be.

This could be used as a business reason why your rent should be reduced; that if not, you'll move. But do not be surprised if the LL tells you to move if you want, as I'd say some LL's will be looking at reducing their portfolio shortly.

Del2005 · 22-05-2020 11:20pm

KiKi III wrote: »

Where did you get the idea that I want to break my lease? I want to renegotiate the terms, it’s a fairly different thing.

Anecdotally, I know a lot of non-Irish in Dublin are moving to their home countries, and irish people who work for Facebook etc moving back to their home county because their working from home until at least Christmas. The supply coming on isn’t just Airbnb. Also, a lot of international students who would usually be arriving in August/ September simply won’t be.

I don’t really care about the good tenant/ bad tenant argument. We could definitely say I’m a long-term and reliable tenant if that makes it easier to understand.

Right now there is a 3 bedroom on my street for €100 less per month than my 2 bed. I know my landlord has a good few properties vacant at the moment because I can see them on Daft (exact same fittings and decor as mine)

Anyway, thanks for your input. Having read a bit online I understand it’s better to speak to the agency over the phone than email in the first instance so I’ll do that.

I’ll explain that we’re considering moving to one of the similar but cheaper properties in the area, but that we would consider staying if they could reach some compromise with us on rent.

When was your last rent review? Because if it's been in the last year the landlord can't do another due to the RPZ legislation. So your only option is to leave or pay what's in your contract.

_Brian · 22-05-2020 11:30pm

Asking costs nothing.

Don’t threaten to move out unless you intend to follow though. Nothing as pathetic as someone who turns out to me making empty threats.

If there are houses available €200 a month cheaper near you and you couldn’t be arsed moving then you don’t really need a rent reduction.

What has a landlord to loose playing hardball and holding out, if you buckle and stay he keeps the higher rent, if you leave he will fill the place and so has lost nothing.

sully2010 · 22-05-2020 11:40pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I don't think you understand the word "dystopian". Doing the basics doesn't make you "good" it makes you basic. Where is the landlord in that situation at fault? Doing things the easiest way possible is good for everyone.

What is so terrible about a tenant switching off the water themselves and calling a plumber? If they owned the place would they leave the leak all night?

Yes I am a landlord and arrived at 2:30 am to shut off the water because the tenant couldn't find the shut off when told. They drunkenly tripped and smash the sink and broke the taps off. Are they a good or bad tenant in your eyes?

Would part of being a "basic" landlord not be to inform all new tenants where the mains shut off valve is under the kitchen sink and where the hot and cold shut off valves are in the hot press, with a few labels attached to direct them in case there is a leak at 2am in the morning? It would surely save you a lot of money on water damage repair too.

KiKi III · 23-05-2020 5:59pm

_Brian wrote: »

Asking costs nothing.

Don’t threaten to move out unless you intend to follow though. Nothing as pathetic as someone who turns out to me making empty threats.

If there are houses available €200 a month cheaper near you and you couldn’t be arsed moving then you don’t really need a rent reduction.

What has a landlord to loose playing hardball and holding out, if you buckle and stay he keeps the higher rent, if you leave he will fill the place and so has lost nothing.

Whether I “really need it” or not isn’t the question at hand. The question is whether the property is worth the rent we are currently paying for it.

KiKi III · 23-05-2020 6:00pm

Del2005 wrote: »

When was your last rent review? Because if it's been in the last year the landlord can't do another due to the RPZ legislation. So your only option is to leave or pay what's in your contract.

This doesn’t sound right. I would have thought this clause means they can’t increase my rent more than once in a year. I would have thought a decrease is generally considered welcome in an RPZ.

Del2005 · 23-05-2020 7:52pm

KiKi III wrote: »

This doesn’t sound right. I would have thought this clause means they can’t increase my rent more than once in a year. I would have thought a decrease is generally considered welcome in an RPZ.

A rent review is a rent review if the price goes up or down. With the bias of the RTB I could see a tenant successfully claiming against a landlord for an illegal rent review if they reduce the rent out of sequence.

KiKi III · 23-05-2020 8:55pm

Del2005 wrote: »

A rent review is a rent review if the price goes up or down. With the bias of the RTB I could see a tenant successfully claiming against a landlord for an illegal rent review if they reduce the rent out of sequence.

Hmmm I had a look at the site and I don’t think you have that right but will give the RTB a call on Monday to confirm.

The_Conductor · 24-05-2020 1:21pm

KiKi III wrote: »

This doesn’t sound right. I would have thought this clause means they can’t increase my rent more than once in a year. I would have thought a decrease is generally considered welcome in an RPZ.

A landlord is not entitled to review the rent more than once in a 12 month period. He/she cannot adjust the rent my more than 4% per annum in an RPZ (a prorata increase or decrease may apply, if the last review was more than 12 months ago).

The whole premise of the Residential Tenancies Act and the Rent Review process/procedure- is to cap rents at increases of 4% per annum in RPZs. It doesn't really address the current situation where rents may be falling at greater than 4% per annum- when I spoke with the RTB about it- their comment was if the market rent is below the current rent level, presumably a tenant would move to a cheaper dwelling, to reflect the difference in rent.

Aka- the legislation, as it currently stands, does not recognise the current situation we find ourselves in- and the onus is on a tenant to move if they want to pay lower rent.

From a landlord's perspective- it is possible that a landlord may try to invoke the 4% pa limit (which was phrased as an upward limit), as a reciprochal 4% pa downward limit at the next rent review..........

The legislation- and the interpretation of it- are out of step with the times we find ourselves in.

Curious1002 · 26-05-2020 3:36pm

Kiki, prepare for the talk with your landlord:

1. Apply for a few similar apt from Daft and view them. If offered a place for €1500 or less tell them that you need 1-2 days to respond. During those 2 days talk to your current landlord and:

a) show them a sample of 3 similar properties in the area for much less to your current rent (print shot Dafy ads),
b) remind him that you are here for 6 years and like his place, you have never been a pain or a bad tenant in any way, shape or form,
c) tell him that your salary decreased by 10-20% (you can provide evidence if he requests)
d) tell him that if you part ways there is no guarantee for him to get the same rent price that you pay and that the new tenants could make his life a living hell. He will also have the stress of advertisement, viewing, refreshing the place for the new tenants, dealing with queries from tenants, calls, new RTB tenancy registration with extra fees, setting them up with energy/bank accounts, etc.
e) tell him that you just got accepted for a new place with a lower rent and that tomorrow morning you have to give the new landlord a deposit
f) you said that your current landlord is "giving" you 50% off your rent right now but you have to pay it later so this is not really a help but just an approved delayed rent payment. Tell him that your co-workers, friends and neighbours negotiated a rent reduction by 10-15% or even a rent relief for 1-2 months so what you managed to achieve with him is not really a help as he will eventually get 100% of his rent.

2. If your landlord does not agree with the 6 points above I strongly advise you to move to a cheaper place. You may feel comfortable where you are but remember that it's not your place and will never be so treat it like a hotel and dont get used to or fall in love with it. Change is good for all involved.

Ray Palmer · 27-05-2020 10:53am

sully2010 wrote: »

Would part of being a "basic" landlord not be to inform all new tenants where the mains shut off valve is under the kitchen sink and where the hot and cold shut off valves are in the hot press, with a few labels attached to direct them in case there is a leak at 2am in the morning? It would surely save you a lot of money on water damage repair too.

Probably why I already mentioned I provide a book with instructions in each property.

Edgware · 28-05-2020 11:01pm

58 one bed room apartments in Dublin 6 advertised on Daft today. Tenants are in a strong position with supply far exceeding current demand. I dont know what will happen as restrictions lift but unless third level colleges operate actual lectures as distinct from online there will be plenty supply.

Del2005 · 29-05-2020 4:13am

Edgware wrote: »

58 one bed room apartments in Dublin 6 advertised on Daft today. Tenants are in a strong position with supply far exceeding current demand. I dont know what will happen as restrictions lift but unless third level colleges operate actual lectures as distinct from online there will be plenty supply.

Could be fun if people start leaving their current tenancies early to get cheaper rent, without giving the correct notice period, to see what happens at the RTB if the landlord can't get new tenants.

The_Conductor · 29-05-2020 7:54am

Del2005 wrote: »

Could be fun if people start leaving their current tenancies early to get cheaper rent, without giving the correct notice period, to see what happens at the RTB if the landlord can't get new tenants.

They'll chuck additional resources at it- with the intention of making the problem go away. Landlords will be told there is no point in chasing tenants, tenants will be told, technically they are in the wrong, but the chances of landlords chasing them is negligible. Some landlords will chase tenants, to make a point- and there will be some tenants who feel hard-done-by for not getting away with it- doubtless ringing Joe Duffy to mutter, moan and complain about their evil landlords.

The fact of the matter is the entire sector is dysfunctional. There was little impetus for landlords to fight their corner when they could get a new tenant to walk in and occupy a vacant unit. Where its just that little bit more difficult to get a replacement tenant- some landlords may follow the letter of the law- and pursue tenants for the notice period, if it is not served properly.

The law, as it stands, is skewed massively in favour of tenants. Tenants cannot have a reasonable expectation of additional rights under legislation- unless they fulfill their current rights- which up to now, were often allowed fall by the wayside.

Its going to be an interesting market.

Priestess101 · 29-05-2020 3:11pm

So what is the best way to communicate with the landlord what can be worked out?

Unlike the OP, I live in a 1-bedroom apartment in the same area which is €1674 a month and the next 4% rent increase is due in July/August. I have been in contact with threshold and they suggest negotiating what you can so I need help writing the email. I would like to revert back to €1600 a month when I signed the lease 2 years ago. Any advice is appreciated.

Best, P

The_Conductor · 29-05-2020 4:05pm

Dear Landlord,

I understand that you are entitled to review the rent on (insert date of 1 year after the last rent review).
While I would like to continue my tenancy, rents are falling and the going rate for a 1 bed apartment in the area has now fallen.
I would like you to consider dropping the rent by 4% (EUR67) to 1,607 a month.
In support of my request I enclose copies of 3 similar properties in the immediate locality- which clearly indicate that my current rent level is above the prevailing rate.

I look forward to a response to my proposal.

Yours sincerely,

Priestess101

Priestess101 · 29-05-2020 5:21pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Dear Landlord,

I understand that you are entitled to review the rent on (insert date of 1 year after the last rent review).
While I would like to continue my tenancy, rents are falling and the going rate for a 1 bed apartment in the area has now fallen.
I would like you to consider dropping the rent by 4% (EUR67) to 1,607 a month.
In support of my request I enclose copies of 3 similar properties in the immediate locality- which clearly indicate that my current rent level is above the prevailing rate.

I look forward to a response to my proposal.

Yours sincerely,

Priestess101

Thank you very much for that, straight to the point too, you're a star!

Best, P

Priestess101 · 31-05-2020 3:46pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Dear Landlord,

I understand that you are entitled to review the rent on (insert date of 1 year after the last rent review).
While I would like to continue my tenancy, rents are falling and the going rate for a 1 bed apartment in the area has now fallen.
I would like you to consider dropping the rent by 4% (EUR67) to 1,607 a month.
In support of my request I enclose copies of 3 similar properties in the immediate locality- which clearly indicate that my current rent level is above the prevailing rate.

I look forward to a response to my proposal.

Yours sincerely,

Priestess101

I am beyond devastated. See response below from my LL when making a case for a rent review in correlation to the market as suggested on this thread.

I know it’s his business but nearly everyone is in the same boat, I was hoping that he will give me some dignity and reciprocate the goodwill landlords all around the country are giving to their tenants that are struggling right now.

Here's my supporting evidence (not the LL's)

https://www.daft.ie/22034818

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https://www.daft.ie/22027835

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https://www.daft.ie/22034403

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Please advise:

Hi,
Thank you for your email. Your 3 comparisons are not comparing like with like. Courtney House rents at a lower rent than Fitzwilliam Court because it is not of the same standard.

I note 12 Courtney House is on the market at €1650.

I have looked at 1 Bed apartments of a similar standard to your apartment in the locality and see the rents quoted are generally greater than your rent. Rent of €2000 is not unusual.

I will not reduce the rent.

Best regards

whippet · 31-05-2020 3:51pm

Seems fair from the LL .. he seems to have provided supporting evidence for his decision.

Priestess101 · 31-05-2020 4:21pm

whippet wrote: »

Seems fair from the LL .. he seems to have provided supporting evidence for his decision.

Sorry not his evidence, I was providing my supporting evidence in the emaill and one property litteraly outside my road and the other 2 apartments are 1-2 minutes away walk from where I live.

How to negotiate a rent decrease

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