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How to negotiate a rent decrease

KiKi III

My housemate and I moved into a house in Dublin 6 three years ago. At the time the rent was €1600, now increased to €1750.

We accepted the two rental increases (max amount) because to move would have cost a lot more, which is no longer the case. There are currently a number of two bedroom properties in our area being advertised for €1200, €1400 or €1500. The increased supply is having an immediate effect on rent prices in the area.

We take care of the place, we always pay our rent on time and we don’t ask for a lot. I’d like to think we’re considered good tenants.

The landlord owns about 20 houses in the area. I don’t know him personally, we only communicate through the agency.

I’m self-employed and my income has reduced, while my housemate was laid off for a few weeks and just went back to work today.

We think we’re in a reasonable position to renegotiate our rent, but don’t know the best way to approach it.

Do I just lay out the facts as above? Do I say we’re going to move out if they don’t accommodate us somehow? (Realistically this would be a fairly empty threat, I don’t actually want to move house)

Our goal would be to get back to our original rent of €1600. They’ll probably want to meet us in the middle so do we ask for €1500 and move to that?

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the_syco

KiKi III wrote: »

I’m self-employed and my income has reduced, while my housemate was laid off for a few weeks and just went back to work today.

We think we’re in a reasonable position to renegotiate our rent, but don’t know the best way to approach it.

The above is the reason why you need to reduce it. You need a business reason to reduce it.

KiKi III wrote: »

Anecdotally, I know a lot of non-Irish in Dublin are moving to their home countries, and irish people who work for Facebook etc moving back to their home county because their working from home until at least Christmas. The supply coming on isn’t just Airbnb. Also, a lot of international students who would usually be arriving in August/ September simply won’t be.

This could be used as a business reason why your rent should be reduced; that if not, you'll move. But do not be surprised if the LL tells you to move if you want, as I'd say some LL's will be looking at reducing their portfolio shortly.

Del2005

KiKi III wrote: »

Where did you get the idea that I want to break my lease? I want to renegotiate the terms, it’s a fairly different thing.

Anecdotally, I know a lot of non-Irish in Dublin are moving to their home countries, and irish people who work for Facebook etc moving back to their home county because their working from home until at least Christmas. The supply coming on isn’t just Airbnb. Also, a lot of international students who would usually be arriving in August/ September simply won’t be.

I don’t really care about the good tenant/ bad tenant argument. We could definitely say I’m a long-term and reliable tenant if that makes it easier to understand.

Right now there is a 3 bedroom on my street for €100 less per month than my 2 bed. I know my landlord has a good few properties vacant at the moment because I can see them on Daft (exact same fittings and decor as mine)

Anyway, thanks for your input. Having read a bit online I understand it’s better to speak to the agency over the phone than email in the first instance so I’ll do that.

I’ll explain that we’re considering moving to one of the similar but cheaper properties in the area, but that we would consider staying if they could reach some compromise with us on rent.

When was your last rent review? Because if it's been in the last year the landlord can't do another due to the RPZ legislation. So your only option is to leave or pay what's in your contract.

_Brian

Asking costs nothing.

Don’t threaten to move out unless you intend to follow though. Nothing as pathetic as someone who turns out to me making empty threats.

If there are houses available €200 a month cheaper near you and you couldn’t be arsed moving then you don’t really need a rent reduction.

What has a landlord to loose playing hardball and holding out, if you buckle and stay he keeps the higher rent, if you leave he will fill the place and so has lost nothing.

[Deleted User]

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I don't think you understand the word "dystopian". Doing the basics doesn't make you "good" it makes you basic. Where is the landlord in that situation at fault? Doing things the easiest way possible is good for everyone.

What is so terrible about a tenant switching off the water themselves and calling a plumber? If they owned the place would they leave the leak all night?

Yes I am a landlord and arrived at 2:30 am to shut off the water because the tenant couldn't find the shut off when told. They drunkenly tripped and smash the sink and broke the taps off. Are they a good or bad tenant in your eyes?

Would part of being a "basic" landlord not be to inform all new tenants where the mains shut off valve is under the kitchen sink and where the hot and cold shut off valves are in the hot press, with a few labels attached to direct them in case there is a leak at 2am in the morning? It would surely save you a lot of money on water damage repair too.

KiKi III

_Brian wrote: »

Asking costs nothing.

Don’t threaten to move out unless you intend to follow though. Nothing as pathetic as someone who turns out to me making empty threats.

If there are houses available €200 a month cheaper near you and you couldn’t be arsed moving then you don’t really need a rent reduction.

What has a landlord to loose playing hardball and holding out, if you buckle and stay he keeps the higher rent, if you leave he will fill the place and so has lost nothing.

Whether I “really need it” or not isn’t the question at hand. The question is whether the property is worth the rent we are currently paying for it.

KiKi III

Del2005 wrote: »

When was your last rent review? Because if it's been in the last year the landlord can't do another due to the RPZ legislation. So your only option is to leave or pay what's in your contract.

This doesn’t sound right. I would have thought this clause means they can’t increase my rent more than once in a year. I would have thought a decrease is generally considered welcome in an RPZ.

Del2005

KiKi III wrote: »

This doesn’t sound right. I would have thought this clause means they can’t increase my rent more than once in a year. I would have thought a decrease is generally considered welcome in an RPZ.

A rent review is a rent review if the price goes up or down. With the bias of the RTB I could see a tenant successfully claiming against a landlord for an illegal rent review if they reduce the rent out of sequence.

KiKi III

Del2005 wrote: »

A rent review is a rent review if the price goes up or down. With the bias of the RTB I could see a tenant successfully claiming against a landlord for an illegal rent review if they reduce the rent out of sequence.

Hmmm I had a look at the site and I don’t think you have that right but will give the RTB a call on Monday to confirm.

The_Conductor

KiKi III wrote: »

This doesn’t sound right. I would have thought this clause means they can’t increase my rent more than once in a year. I would have thought a decrease is generally considered welcome in an RPZ.

A landlord is not entitled to review the rent more than once in a 12 month period. He/she cannot adjust the rent my more than 4% per annum in an RPZ (a prorata increase or decrease may apply, if the last review was more than 12 months ago).

The whole premise of the Residential Tenancies Act and the Rent Review process/procedure- is to cap rents at increases of 4% per annum in RPZs. It doesn't really address the current situation where rents may be falling at greater than 4% per annum- when I spoke with the RTB about it- their comment was if the market rent is below the current rent level, presumably a tenant would move to a cheaper dwelling, to reflect the difference in rent.

Aka- the legislation, as it currently stands, does not recognise the current situation we find ourselves in- and the onus is on a tenant to move if they want to pay lower rent.

From a landlord's perspective- it is possible that a landlord may try to invoke the 4% pa limit (which was phrased as an upward limit), as a reciprochal 4% pa downward limit at the next rent review..........

The legislation- and the interpretation of it- are out of step with the times we find ourselves in.

Curious1002

Kiki, prepare for the talk with your landlord:

1. Apply for a few similar apt from Daft and view them. If offered a place for €1500 or less tell them that you need 1-2 days to respond. During those 2 days talk to your current landlord and:

a) show them a sample of 3 similar properties in the area for much less to your current rent (print shot Dafy ads),
b) remind him that you are here for 6 years and like his place, you have never been a pain or a bad tenant in any way, shape or form,
c) tell him that your salary decreased by 10-20% (you can provide evidence if he requests)
d) tell him that if you part ways there is no guarantee for him to get the same rent price that you pay and that the new tenants could make his life a living hell. He will also have the stress of advertisement, viewing, refreshing the place for the new tenants, dealing with queries from tenants, calls, new RTB tenancy registration with extra fees, setting them up with energy/bank accounts, etc.
e) tell him that you just got accepted for a new place with a lower rent and that tomorrow morning you have to give the new landlord a deposit
f) you said that your current landlord is "giving" you 50% off your rent right now but you have to pay it later so this is not really a help but just an approved delayed rent payment. Tell him that your co-workers, friends and neighbours negotiated a rent reduction by 10-15% or even a rent relief for 1-2 months so what you managed to achieve with him is not really a help as he will eventually get 100% of his rent.

2. If your landlord does not agree with the 6 points above I strongly advise you to move to a cheaper place. You may feel comfortable where you are but remember that it's not your place and will never be so treat it like a hotel and dont get used to or fall in love with it. Change is good for all involved.

Ray Palmer

sully2010 wrote: »

Would part of being a "basic" landlord not be to inform all new tenants where the mains shut off valve is under the kitchen sink and where the hot and cold shut off valves are in the hot press, with a few labels attached to direct them in case there is a leak at 2am in the morning? It would surely save you a lot of money on water damage repair too.

Probably why I already mentioned I provide a book with instructions in each property.

Edgware

58 one bed room apartments in Dublin 6 advertised on Daft today. Tenants are in a strong position with supply far exceeding current demand. I dont know what will happen as restrictions lift but unless third level colleges operate actual lectures as distinct from online there will be plenty supply.

Del2005

Edgware wrote: »

58 one bed room apartments in Dublin 6 advertised on Daft today. Tenants are in a strong position with supply far exceeding current demand. I dont know what will happen as restrictions lift but unless third level colleges operate actual lectures as distinct from online there will be plenty supply.

Could be fun if people start leaving their current tenancies early to get cheaper rent, without giving the correct notice period, to see what happens at the RTB if the landlord can't get new tenants.

The_Conductor

Del2005 wrote: »

Could be fun if people start leaving their current tenancies early to get cheaper rent, without giving the correct notice period, to see what happens at the RTB if the landlord can't get new tenants.

They'll chuck additional resources at it- with the intention of making the problem go away. Landlords will be told there is no point in chasing tenants, tenants will be told, technically they are in the wrong, but the chances of landlords chasing them is negligible. Some landlords will chase tenants, to make a point- and there will be some tenants who feel hard-done-by for not getting away with it- doubtless ringing Joe Duffy to mutter, moan and complain about their evil landlords.

The fact of the matter is the entire sector is dysfunctional. There was little impetus for landlords to fight their corner when they could get a new tenant to walk in and occupy a vacant unit. Where its just that little bit more difficult to get a replacement tenant- some landlords may follow the letter of the law- and pursue tenants for the notice period, if it is not served properly.

The law, as it stands, is skewed massively in favour of tenants. Tenants cannot have a reasonable expectation of additional rights under legislation- unless they fulfill their current rights- which up to now, were often allowed fall by the wayside.

Its going to be an interesting market.

Priestess101

So what is the best way to communicate with the landlord what can be worked out?

Unlike the OP, I live in a 1-bedroom apartment in the same area which is €1674 a month and the next 4% rent increase is due in July/August. I have been in contact with threshold and they suggest negotiating what you can so I need help writing the email. I would like to revert back to €1600 a month when I signed the lease 2 years ago. Any advice is appreciated.

Best, P

The_Conductor

Dear Landlord,

I understand that you are entitled to review the rent on (insert date of 1 year after the last rent review).
While I would like to continue my tenancy, rents are falling and the going rate for a 1 bed apartment in the area has now fallen.
I would like you to consider dropping the rent by 4% (EUR67) to 1,607 a month.
In support of my request I enclose copies of 3 similar properties in the immediate locality- which clearly indicate that my current rent level is above the prevailing rate.

I look forward to a response to my proposal.

Yours sincerely,

Priestess101

Priestess101

The_Conductor wrote: »

Dear Landlord,

I understand that you are entitled to review the rent on (insert date of 1 year after the last rent review).
While I would like to continue my tenancy, rents are falling and the going rate for a 1 bed apartment in the area has now fallen.
I would like you to consider dropping the rent by 4% (EUR67) to 1,607 a month.
In support of my request I enclose copies of 3 similar properties in the immediate locality- which clearly indicate that my current rent level is above the prevailing rate.

I look forward to a response to my proposal.

Yours sincerely,

Priestess101

Thank you very much for that, straight to the point too, you're a star!

Best, P

Priestess101

The_Conductor wrote: »

Dear Landlord,

I understand that you are entitled to review the rent on (insert date of 1 year after the last rent review).
While I would like to continue my tenancy, rents are falling and the going rate for a 1 bed apartment in the area has now fallen.
I would like you to consider dropping the rent by 4% (EUR67) to 1,607 a month.
In support of my request I enclose copies of 3 similar properties in the immediate locality- which clearly indicate that my current rent level is above the prevailing rate.

I look forward to a response to my proposal.

Yours sincerely,

Priestess101

I am beyond devastated. See response below from my LL when making a case for a rent review in correlation to the market as suggested on this thread.

I know it’s his business but nearly everyone is in the same boat, I was hoping that he will give me some dignity and reciprocate the goodwill landlords all around the country are giving to their tenants that are struggling right now.

Here's my supporting evidence (not the LL's)

https://www.daft.ie/22034818

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https://www.daft.ie/22027835

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https://www.daft.ie/22034403

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Please advise:

Hi,
Thank you for your email. Your 3 comparisons are not comparing like with like. Courtney House rents at a lower rent than Fitzwilliam Court because it is not of the same standard.

I note 12 Courtney House is on the market at €1650.

I have looked at 1 Bed apartments of a similar standard to your apartment in the locality and see the rents quoted are generally greater than your rent. Rent of €2000 is not unusual.

I will not reduce the rent.

Best regards

whippet

Seems fair from the LL .. he seems to have provided supporting evidence for his decision.

Priestess101

whippet wrote: »

Seems fair from the LL .. he seems to have provided supporting evidence for his decision.

Sorry not his evidence, I was providing my supporting evidence in the emaill and one property litteraly outside my road and the other 2 apartments are 1-2 minutes away walk from where I live.

The_Conductor

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
While it is disappointing, you have two choices to choose between.
Accept what he is saying- and continue to pay the same rent- or keep an eye out and choose a nice unit that you like and are happy with the price, when it suits you to move.

As for the 3 examples- while the location is excellent- I wouldn't be massively impressed with the units (which don't seem to be anything special). In addition one of them is a 3rd floor unit- presumably with a profusion of stairs to be navigated. They're not bad units- and they're in an exceptionally high demand area (I lived in Dublin 6 for 4 years myself)- but they're nothing I'd be writing home about either (and the one with all the carpet is a recipe for a disaster).

Keep an eye out and be prepared to move?