BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

AlanG wrote: »

Bray Head wrote: »

I spent a bit of time on the interactive map and generated a few isochrones. 

I took ten large centres of employment around the city and looked for the increase in jobs accessible within 60 minutes. Table below.

For my sample the increase is between +1% and +94%, with a non-weighted average of +27%. The smallest improvements are in the city centre and the biggest improvements are in the outskirts. 

This is consistent with all of the Bus Connects rhetoric. The 'An Lár' focus of the network will remain, but the big missing links - radial routes - will be much improved.

It would be interesting to see how they have generated the figures for present journey times. For my area of blanch the distance you can currently cover in 30 minutes seems way to low unless they assume people leave randomly to stand at bus stops and therefore could be waiting 30 minutes at midday - in reality most people leave when they know a bus is due.  Their current distance form Blanch village now shows you only getting as far as kinvara but in reality you can easily make it into town in 30 minutes from Blanchardstown village at that time - under the new system you will have made it out to the center and back to the blanchardstown bypass - possibly crossing the M50 but not reaching Morgan place (which is currently the next stop on the 39 route after Blanch Village, 3 mins) - this same anomaly will apply to all of Blench village, waterville, Roselawn, clonsilla road and most of corduff - 30 mins to get 100-300 meters)
Does anyone know if they have published the methodology they used to generate these metrics?

If you click the More Info, they have this:

[font=arial, sans-serif]How is travel time calculated?[/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]This tool focuses on how far you could go assuming bus, rail and tram frequencies between 9:00 AM and 3:00 PM on weekdays. Travel times including walking, waiting and time on public transport. Because one may need to travel at any time, the tool assumes waiting time is half of the time between buses. For example, if a bus comes every 20 minutes, the tool assumes you would typically wait 10 minutes.[/font]

Bambi wrote: »

When you're having to stereotype vast swathes of the population because they dont share your opinion chances are that they are not the ones with the extreme view and its time to pop the head out of the echo chamber for a bit.

Speaking of which most of the local feedback to the proposals and NTA roadshow that I've seen is along the lines of "I've to take two buses now? Shag that" This was always going to be the case given peoples previous experience with multiple bus journeys. I could have told the NTA this would happen for less than it costs to have Jarret Walker to answer an email and yet it comes as a suprise to them

I don't think anyone is surprised by that reaction.

CatInABox wrote: »

They ran a random survey of bus users at the start of this process, one of the questions was along the lines of "Would you be okay with taking two buses, if it got you to your destination faster?" The response was about 80% positive.

Jarrett Walker has also said that the reaction in Dublin has been less hostile than in other cities which have implemented his proposals.

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1238/chapter6initialpublicconsultation.pdf

12,769 responses to the initial survey

4. Willingness to Interchange
The survey asked how people feel about three statements:

• “We can ask people to change vehicles (buses or trains) once during a trip, if those people reach their destination sooner.” 81% agreed.
• “We can ask people to change vehicles once during a trip, if that creates a network that helps more people reach more destinations sooner.” 80% agreed.
• “We can ask people to change vehicles once during a trip, if it helps make the network simple enough that people can remember it.” 68% agreed.

AlanG wrote: »

It would be interesting to see how they have generated the figures for present journey times. For my area of blanch the distance you can currently cover in 30 minutes seems way to low unless they assume people leave randomly to stand at bus stops and therefore could be waiting 30 minutes at midday - in reality most people leave when they know a bus is due. .....

The methodology, as re-posted above from their FAQ, is in fact the realistic way of estimating total travel time. When you say people won't leave until a bus is due (especially with RTPI available), that waiting time shouldn't be ignored, it is a genuine delay in getting to your destination from the moment you are prepared to travel. It also reveals the benefit of increasing frequency on a route, even if you change nothing else.

That said, I do think the the travel times are a little pessimistic for off-peak travel, not unlike Google Maps, but there's no great harm in that especially since the main point is to compare before and after with the same methodology applied to both.

Bambi wrote: »

And I posted this about a hundred pages back, you'd swear I had a crystal ball for this whole project.

It's not really a random survey when you're just sticking a questionnaire out there for anyone to answer. That's why polling companies exist and even then they still get it completely wrong.

It was done via RedC. I was one of those polled

Dardania wrote: »

If you click the More Info, they have this:

[font=arial, sans-serif]How is travel time calculated?[/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]This tool focuses on how far you could go assuming bus, rail and tram frequencies between 9:00 AM and 3:00 PM on weekdays. Travel times including walking, waiting and time on public transport. Because one may need to travel at any time, the tool assumes waiting time is half of the time between buses. For example, if a bus comes every 20 minutes, the tool assumes you would typically wait 10 minutes.[/font]

Thanks, missed that, while it is probably the fairest way overall it is not totally consistent with how people on lower frequency routes use the service. It basically shows that the benefit of halving of average wait times in Blanchardstown will be cancelled out by a doubling of journey times to the quays- looks like no change on paper but for most frequent users who time their arrival at the bus stop it will massively increase their journey times towards town.

Also it is interesting to note that while earlier versions of the interactive map had the B Spine bypassing the M50 roundabout coming into town the new one has it taking the hospital exit and traveling around the roundabout, probably adding 3-4 minutes but increasing the possibility to serve thousands of homes and also the chances for interchange. Strange that it would be changed before the consultancy is finished.

The map is selling the better interchange, better orbital connectivity and, crucially, better frequency. It assumes no improvement in bus speeds because the infrastructural improvements are subject to further planning applications. In the 5 years after 2019 passengers can assume dramatic improvement in bus speeds.

howiya wrote: »

I can see why they were slow to release the map. 25% increase in journey time.

A large number of maps were previously released. They are here: https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-full-report/ under "Isochrones - (Travel Time Maps)".

Are the timings based on best/worst case scenario?

They are based on average timing (including average wait time) during the day.

naughtb4 wrote: »

Also is the journey time from Swords (one of the spines) to town really expected to be 60 minutes??

Note that it includes the average wait time and is based on a middle of the day trip.

cgcsb wrote: »

My pin was very very slightly up on Blackhorse avenue, and moving it less than 10 metres seems to have made a gigantic difference.

Those 10 metres may be the difference between getting a bus or the next one.

I've had to read over the last 100+ pages and am only catching up now.

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Is there going to be a capacity increase on the Luas? All express busses that serve Clondalkin are gone, bar 1 morning only departure. Excuse given is a new frequent bus to Red line Luas. Not much use if Luas is jammed like it is most mornings.

Are you saying you can't get on a Luas at Red Cow in the morning? Note that there are more Red Line trams available than are currently in use. Some of them were borrowed for the Green Line when it opened.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I've re-looked at the pictures I uploaded, and 30m difference from the same stop makes a job difference in the thousands...

Those 30 metres may mean missing a bus.

30m is 14s walk at 8kph

8 km/h is an unrealistic speed for 95%+ of the population. I average about 5km/h, I might make 6km/h if in a hurry and motivated. For public transport planning purposes, speeds of 3-4 km/h are used.

TheChrisD wrote: »

However, I'm also seeing the B-spine to town not take the fancy bus lane out of the centre by the Crowne Plaza and the roundabout on-ramp nearby; rather it shows going via the Liberty building, across the Snugborough bridge and using the Waterville on-ramp? What's the point of that, that's going to add so much more time being stuck in that traffic versus getting on the N3 quicker
https://i.imgur.com/lUv2hPh.png

That's not a definitive routing. The software is likely 'operating on a shortest trip between bus stops' basis, without any non-bus-stop way-points set.

Peregrine wrote: »

A lot of the physical infrastructure will be done afterwards but there are things like reallocating lanes, car bans, interchanges etc. that can be done right now and will make a big difference. I got the impression they were keen on improving bus lane enforcement too. The widening of roads, CPOing gardens etc. is a major project that could take years to get through design, planning, tendering and construction.

All time estimates are based on existing infrastructure.

Only way most of it can work is with a municipal police force but to start that project on Monday we'd be looking at 2024 to get anywhere. BC is a nice idea but can only be an idea when white paint has a smidgen of meaning.

KD345 wrote: »

The first place the new 22 meets the O is at Heuston Station. It is not acceptable to expect passengers from Drimnagh to travel to Heuston to take a connecting bus to Camden Street.

But they can use Luas or the D Spine to connect to the O.

Victor wrote: »

But they can use Luas or the D Spine to connect to the O.

That is true, but the overall journey length for someone traveling on the 122 between Drimnagh and Auinger Street will increase quite a bit. The D Spine is a 1km walk from parts of the current 122 route.

I’m also not convinced there will be capacity on the Red Line to deal with all the extra bus passengers proposed.

dfx- wrote: »

are they advertising a 5 minute frequency or high frequency spines as well as an intricate web of connections across the city with current infrastructure? :eek:







:eek:

With a car free quays, car free George's st, 2 way buses on Parliament street and a pedestrian college green, sure why not. There'll be delays but it'll operate much smoother than the current set up.

Just on some of the stuff that could be done now before the big bang. Bus lane on N1 should be made 24/7 immediately.

Walked home from Croke Park last night and it was like a car park. Both Monaghan & Tyrone fans heading home that way. I'd say there was a huge effect on DB's operations as a result.

sharper wrote: »

He's engaged people individually and route by route on twitter. How much better than that can someone listen?

Over it's history the CIE group has been one of the most studied & reported upon entities on the Planet.

With all of these reports,few were ever given an opportunity to engage with or question the compilers,usually faceless "Consultancy Giants" who rarely allowed an personalization to take root.

Even within the CIE group,the studies and recommendations on internal planning and development have rarely been openly debated.

Yet when we have an individual,who takes full responsibility for his work,and engages on several levels,not only with the Administrative Elite who commissioned his work,but also with the Joe Soaps of the City,he's given the bums rush and slated as being a mere "IT Geek".

We can't have it both ways.

The last major internal Dublin Bus reentrenchment was the Sectoral Reports from the Bob Montgomery era,which gave us the City IMP,City SWIFT and City SPEED brandings,each successful in their own right,but which fell foul of internal politics,after the rather sudden departure of Mr Montgomery.

I would refrain from calling Network Direct,a Plan,as such,due to the reality that it was a survival strategy,which was ultimately successful,but at a cost of leaving Dublin with a less functional network than what preceeded it.

One of the mistakes which the NTA have made,is in using the post Network Direct network as the baseline on which to superimpose Busconnects.
Using the pre-existing Dublin Bus network would perhaps have given J.Walker somewhat more to work with.

It has to be continually restated however,that BusConnects is a study of Dublins Bus Network rather than a study of Dublin Buses Network......as both can diverge quite substantially at times.

howiya wrote: »

Just on some of the stuff that could be done now before the big bang. Bus lane on N1 should be made 24/7 immediately.

Walked home from Croke Park last night and it was like a car park. Both Monaghan & Tyrone fans heading home that way. I'd say there was a huge effect on DB's operations as a result.

The glossy brochure produced by the GAA for the launch of the revamped Croke Park some years back made mention of the Traffic Management Plan devised by the GAA,DCC and the Gardai.

Over the intervening period this has largely played out as several individual Gardai mooching aroung the Clonliffe Road/Drumcondra Road junction,each member having a totally seperate notion of what was agreed at the briefings.

Occasionally,a Garda Traffic Corps member would happen along,whereupon significant differences of opinion could be very publicly displayed.

They authorities cannot even organize the switching off of the Traffic Signals at this location,which results in mass confusion,as non-Croke Park destined people,attempt to figure out what they are supposed to do when presented with conflicting instructions by Gardai AND Traffic Signals.

For the most part,the Gardai simply want to chat or text without having to engage with motorists or assist,in any way,the Public Transport so bravely referred to in the brochure.

Again,in the true spirit of modern Ireland...nobody has overall charge of the Traffic Management Plan,such as it is,there is No single point or person of reference to deal with the usual chaos,which gets more dangerous as each event occurs.

I'd have a preference for giving Jarrett Walker another contract,this time,to sort out the amaturish clowning around that accompanies each and every "Big Match in Croker" day...but making sure his bill was sent direct to "Headquarters".

TheChrisD wrote: »

However, I'm also seeing the B-spine to town not take the fancy bus lane out of the centre by the Crowne Plaza and the roundabout on-ramp nearby; rather it shows going via the Liberty building, across the Snugborough bridge and using the Waterville on-ramp? What's the point of that, that's going to add so much more time being stuck in that traffic versus getting on the N3 quicker

There are plans in place to double the bridge at snugborough road and have a bus lane across it but it will definitely need some serious works around the center to bring buses around that route efficiently. Surely it would be better to build a safe wheelchair accessible stop on the N3 near the new bridge to serve people in waterville, the village and corduff.