How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

JimmyVik · 13-04-2021 10:02am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're in for an awful shock when you find out about JA being means tested and subject to income tax and VAT and excise duty as well.

It's amazing how those that shout the loudest about taxes on multiple threads wrt the UI topic seem to have little understanding about our tax base, how its formed and how government expenditure manifests itself across multiple strata.

It's bananas how they think they're forming a coherent argument at all.

I think you will find that those who seem to think that people on the dole pay any significant tax, dont actually know what its like to pay tax. Now I get why you think the tax payer can afford it

BonnieSituation · 13-04-2021 11:03am

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think you will find that those who seem to think that people on the dole pay any significant tax, dont actually know what its like to pay tax. Now I get why you think the tax payer can afford it

Right. I mean, there's not much one can do when the level of debate is "journal comments".

Furze99 · 13-04-2021 12:58pm

You can't buy loyalty to a state. You have to persuade people.

This is the simple fact that Republican minded Nationalists avoid.

Why? Because 'Nationalism' is based on defining and emphasising differences.

I want a UI. You want a UI. Then work to persuade all citizens of the island that it's in the joint interests of everybody.

That entails changes to a century old mindset down south.

FrancieBrady · 13-04-2021 1:02pm

Furze99 wrote: »

You can't buy loyalty to a state. You have to persuade people.

This is the simple fact that Republican minded Nationalists avoid.

Why? Because 'Nationalism' is based on defining and emphasising differences.

I want a UI. You want a UI. Then work to persuade all citizens of the island that it's in the joint interests of everybody.

That entails changes to a century old mindset down south.

Define those who don't want the process of persuasion to even begin? A first Border Poll campaign.

BonnieSituation · 13-04-2021 1:11pm

Furze99 wrote: »

You can't buy loyalty to a state. You have to persuade people.

This is the simple fact that Republican minded Nationalists avoid.

Why? Because 'Nationalism' is based on defining and emphasising differences.

I want a UI. You want a UI. Then work to persuade all citizens of the island that it's in the joint interests of everybody.

That entails changes to a century old mindset down south.

Cool.

BonnieSituation · 14-04-2021 2:17pm

I've posted before about Mr Hay:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/14/irish-born-dup-peer-willie-hay-criticises-rules-for-obtaining-british-passport

---

When the de Souza case was ongoing we were told that Mrs de Souza should just put up as she was "British".

What do our resident belligerents think of Mr Hay's case?

The British system is such an anachronistic mess that someone like him can be treated like a citizen (non-alien; like all Irish citizens) for their entire lives, sit in on top-level security meetings, be a fixture of their political class, even become a peer and yet, to regularise their citizenship, is an absolute hassle of epic proportions.

Something needs to be done. I'm completely on his side.

eire4 · 14-04-2021 3:39pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I've posted before about Mr Hay:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/14/irish-born-dup-peer-willie-hay-criticises-rules-for-obtaining-british-passport

---

When the de Souza case was ongoing we were told that Mrs de Souza should just put up as she was "British".

What do our resident belligerents think of Mr Hay's case?

The British system is such an anachronistic mess that someone like him can be treated like a citizen (non-alien; like all Irish citizens) for their entire lives, sit in on top-level security meetings, be a fixture of their political class, even become a peer and yet, to regularise their citizenship, is an absolute hassle of epic proportions.

Something needs to be done. I'm completely on his side.

I thought they were "subjects" not citizens anyway.

Hamsterchops · 18-04-2021 6:06pm

Everybody's in a holding position to see what happens with Scotland. Will they be granted another independence referendum, and if so what way will it go?

If Scotland votes to leave the UK then this may destabilise Northern Ireland's place within the UK with the possibility of NI hitching it's wagon to the new dynamic fledgling Scotland, or they may vote to stay as they are in the UK with Wales & England.

... or might they actually decide to join our Republic to form a United Ireland? God knows.

hometruths · 18-04-2021 6:28pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Everybody's in a holding position to see what happens with Scotland. Will they be granted another independence referendum, and if so what way will it go?

If Scotland votes to leave the UK then this may destabilise Northern Ireland's place within the UK with the possibility of NI hitching it's wagon to the new dynamic fledgling Scotland, or they may vote to stay as they are in the UK with Wales & England.

... or might they actually decide to join our Republic to form a United Ireland? God knows.

If Scotland left the UK, it would remove the last vested interest most English politicians have in Northern Ireland - they'd probably call a border poll pretty shortly afterwards.

Hamsterchops · 18-04-2021 6:45pm

schmittel wrote: »

If Scotland left the UK, it would remove the last vested interest most English politicians have in Northern Ireland - they'd probably call a border poll pretty shortly afterwards.

But they can't just call a border poll in NI unless it's showing signs that it might like to leave .....

Currently NI is not showing any such sign.

A succession of local NI polls would have to show a trend in the direction of a United Ireland before any English politicians would be involved.

hometruths · 18-04-2021 6:49pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

But they can't just call a border poll in NI unless it's showing signs that it might like to leave .....

Currently NI is not showing any such sign.

A succession of local NI polls would have to show a trend in the direction of a United Ireland before any English politicians would be involved.

Nothing in the GFA to say anything about a succession of polls showing a trend as far as I am aware.

The only person qualified to decide what constitutes showing signs it might to like to leave is the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He can call a poll whenever he wishes.

downcow · 18-04-2021 6:56pm

schmittel wrote: »

Nothing in the GFA to say anything about a succession of polls showing a trend as far as I am aware.

The only person qualified to decide what constitutes showing signs it might to like to leave is the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He can call a poll whenever he wishes.

Nothing in the GFA allows Scotland leaving the UK or the removal of the last vested interest most English politicians to be a factor in a poll

Hamsterchops · 18-04-2021 6:58pm

schmittel wrote: »

Nothing in the GFA to say anything about a succession of polls showing a trend as far as I am aware.

The only person qualified to decide what constitutes showing signs it might to like to leave is the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He can call a poll whenever he wishes.

Yes, but as has been said many times before, there's no point in him calling one unless there is some sign that the "tectonic plates" might have shifted, currently there is no such sign.

If a succession of NI polls show a shift away from the UK in favour of a UI, then so be it, he may call for a border poll.

FrancieBrady · 18-04-2021 7:17pm

schmittel wrote: »

Nothing in the GFA to say anything about a succession of polls showing a trend as far as I am aware.

The only person qualified to decide what constitutes showing signs it might to like to leave is the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He can call a poll whenever he wishes.

The SoS can decide on the basis of two fly's climbing a window pane. Tested in court already - he/she is not constrained nor has to offer evidence for their decision.

It was and always will be when it is politically right...as I said before I think it will come when Dublin gives the nod that it is ready.

hometruths · 18-04-2021 7:34pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The SoS can decide on the basis of two fly's climbing a window pane. Tested in court already - he/she is not constrained nor has to offer evidence for their decision.

My point exactly.

downcow wrote: »

Nothing in the GFA allows Scotland leaving the UK or the removal of the last vested interest most English politicians to be a factor in a poll

See above.

BonnieSituation · 18-04-2021 8:40pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Everybody's in a holding position to see what happens with Scotland. Will they be granted another independence referendum, and if so what way will it go?

If Scotland votes to leave the UK then this may destabilise Northern Ireland's place within the UK with the possibility of NI hitching it's wagon to the new dynamic fledgling Scotland, or they may vote to stay as they are in the UK with Wales & England.

... or might they actually decide to join our Republic to form a United Ireland? God knows.

What are you on about?

Seriously, what do you get out of posting such ignorant and uninformed nonsense every so often?

Jump_In_Jack · 28-04-2021 4:49pm

Arlene Foster departing from the DUP, does this impact the chance of a border poll coming sooner than if she'd stayed in place?

FrancieBrady · 28-04-2021 5:00pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Arlene Foster departing from the DUP, does this impact the chance of a border poll coming sooner than if she'd stayed in place?

I think there are British spooks at work in NI tbh. and within Unionism in order to get rid of NI. Fantasy? I would have said yes a short while ago, not anymore though.
Anything they do (Unionism) seems to be bringing the day closer tbh and at the same time Unionism itself is imploding.

Jump_In_Jack · 28-04-2021 5:04pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think there are British spooks at work in NI tbh. and within Unionism in order to get rid of NI. Fantasy? I would have said yes a short while ago, not anymore though.
Anything they do (Unionism) seems to be bringing the day closer tbh and at the same time Unionism itself is imploding.

It certainly seems that way at times.

downcow · 29-04-2021 4:50am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think there are British spooks at work in NI tbh. and within Unionism in order to get rid of NI. Fantasy? I would have said yes a short while ago, not anymore though.
Anything they do (Unionism) seems to be bringing the day closer tbh and at the same time Unionism itself is imploding.

I agree with the first bit of you statement We would be as naive as republicans seem to still be about the levels of infiltration of the ira, if we did not think the dup and sf are infiltrated.
The dup destined to implode and they just seem to have pr disaster after pr disaster. Sooner the better in my view
Some dup decisions seem as diametrically opposed you their main objectives as was the supporting of the gfa by sf.

Junkyard Tom · 29-04-2021 5:47am

I'd tend to agree with Brian Rowan's take that the next time Stormont falls it closes for good. Rowan also says that if Stormont closes we'll likely be in a post GFA phase and looking at an Irish solution to the British Question.

Bobeagleburger · 29-04-2021 6:10am

So Foster is seen as too liberal from within the DUP..Yikes.

FrancieBrady · 29-04-2021 9:31am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'd tend to agree with Brian Rowan's take that the next time Stormont falls it closes for good. Rowan also says that if Stormont closes we'll likely be in a post GFA phase and looking at an Irish solution to the British Question.

Any link to that Tom?

Strategically, it is like something the Unionists would allow happen out of stubbornness and inability to avoid flying into the flames.

Junkyard Tom · 29-04-2021 11:03am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any link to that Tom?

https://youtu.be/moqPgdKzjBI?t=717

jh79 · 01-05-2021 7:18am

Another poll on a UI. Only 22% would pay for a UI

https://m.independent.ie/irishnews/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

FrancieBrady · 01-05-2021 8:43am

jh79 wrote: »

Another poll on a UI. Only 22% would pay for a UI

https://m.independent.ie/irishnews/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

Incredible results with no concrete proposal or plan on the table.

jh79 · 01-05-2021 9:09am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Incredible results with no concrete proposal or plan on the table.

Dunno about that. Any concrete proposal will just confirm the high cost and drive voters away.

The Germans are still paying up to 5% in tax 30 years on.

The results for NI are lower again i think.

downcow · 01-05-2021 9:11am

jh79 wrote: »

Another poll on a UI. Only 22% would pay for a UI

https://m.independent.ie/irishnews/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

Very reassuring poll for unionism.

FrancieBrady · 01-05-2021 9:14am

jh79 wrote: »

Dunno about that. Any concrete proposal will just confirm the high cost and drive voters away.

The Germans are still paying up to 5% in tax 30 years on.

The results for NI are lower again i think.

44% in the north for a border poll 39% against and a 66% majority for a border poll in the south, tells me the train is approaching fast and we'll see a proposal taking shape soon.

Couched as an investment I think those numbers will change too.

jh79 · 01-05-2021 9:25am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

44% in the north for a border poll 39% against and a 66% majority for a border poll in the south, tells me the train is approaching fast and we'll see a proposal taking shape soon.

Couched as an investment I think those numbers will change too.

Only 35% in favour in the North. On a downward trend. Not even close to likely to pass.

FrancieBrady · 01-05-2021 9:27am

jh79 wrote: »

Only 35% in favour in the North. On a downward trend. Not even close to likely to pass.

There is no proposal or plan in place.

jh79 · 01-05-2021 9:29am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is no proposal or plan in place.

Any proposal will have the opposite effect in each country. To convince the North, Ireland will have to pay and to convince the South NI will take the hit.

droidman123 · 01-05-2021 9:32am

jh79 wrote: »

Dunno about that. Any concrete proposal will just confirm the high cost and drive voters away.

The Germans are still paying up to 5% in tax 30 years on.

The results for NI are lower again i think.

You cannot really compare german reunification with irish reunification.theres a third party involved in ireland,namely britain.when the six occupied counties of my country are finally reunited with the rest of ireland i would expect britain to be footing some of the bill,as they were the agitators of partition.call it compensation or whatever,but when the day comes it will be time for them to pay the piper.there are still too many details,financial and many other things to be ironed out before people have full details of what they would be voting for.

downcow · 01-05-2021 9:36am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

44% in the north for a border poll 39% against and a 66% majority for a border poll in the south, tells me the train is approaching fast and we'll see a proposal taking shape soon.

Couched as an investment I think those numbers will change too.

I am borderline thinking we should have a border poll to put this to bed for a while but I will 100% vote against a UI. So numbers wanting a border poll are completely irrelevant. They have no bearing on either the reason sos having a poll or the result.
Just interesting that you cling unto an irrelevance. Mustn’t be much in it for you

downcow · 01-05-2021 9:38am

droidman123 wrote: »

You cannot really compare german reunification with irish reunification.theres a third party involved in ireland,namely britain.when the six occupied counties of my country are finally reunited with the rest of ireland i would expect britain to be footing some of the bill,as they were the agitators of partition.call it compensation or whatever,but when the day comes it will be time for them to pay the piper.there are still too many details,financial and many other things to be ironed out before people have full details of what they would be voting for.

Did the countries that carved up Germany (even more recently) queue up to help pay?

FrancieBrady · 01-05-2021 9:39am

downcow wrote: »

I am borderline thinking we should have a border poll to put this to bed for a while but I will 100% vote against a UI. So numbers wanting a border poll are completely irrelevant. They have no bearing on either the reason sos having a poll or the result.
Just interesting that you cling unto an irrelevance. Mustn’t be much in it for you

There won't be a border poll because it is irrelevant to you???

The numbers wanting a poll will spur on the formation of a plan or proposal. It would be criminal for our government not to heed those figures.

droidman123 · 01-05-2021 9:45am

downcow wrote: »

Did the countries that carved up Germany (even more recently) queue up to help pay?

Hypotethical question,if there was a border poll and it passed for a ui, in your opinion would britain be liable to foot some of the.costs?

downcow · 01-05-2021 9:52am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There won't be a border poll because it is irrelevant to you???

The numbers wanting a poll will spur on the formation of a plan or proposal. It would be criminal for our government not to heed those figures.

I didn’t say a border poll was irrelevant. I said the numbers wanting it are irrelevant. The reasons for a border poll are crystal clear and they have nothing to do with the numbers wanting it. But sure you cling on to that of plot helps you

jh79 · 01-05-2021 9:52am

droidman123 wrote: »

You cannot really compare german reunification with irish reunification.theres a third party involved in ireland,namely britain.when the six occupied counties of my country are finally reunited with the rest of ireland i would expect britain to be footing some of the bill,as they were the agitators of partition.call it compensation or whatever,but when the day comes it will be time for them to pay the piper.there are still too many details,financial and many other things to be ironed out before people have full details of what they would be voting for.

The Hubner paper promoted by SF uses German unification as its basis.

downcow · 01-05-2021 9:53am

droidman123 wrote: »

Hypotethical question,if there was a border poll and it passed for a ui, in your opinion would britain be liable to foot some of the.costs?

No.
U.K. has committed £billions annually. It would be Roi tax payers turn and of course ourselves

FrancieBrady · 01-05-2021 9:53am

downcow wrote: »

I didn’t say a border poll was irrelevant. I said the numbers wanting it are irrelevant. The reasons for a border poll are crystal clear and they have nothing to do with the numbers wanting it. But sure you cling on to that of plot helps you

The SoS can call a poll for any reason he/she wants. Your courts decided that.

FrancieBrady · 01-05-2021 9:55am

jh79 wrote: »

The Hubner paper promoted by SF uses German unification as its basis.

The 'relevant' parts of it.

jh79 · 01-05-2021 9:56am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The 'relevant' parts of it.

The cost is very relevant given the polls

FrancieBrady · 01-05-2021 10:01am

jh79 wrote: »

The cost is very relevant given the polls

Undeniable. The benefits and how the cost will be met is also relevant. See the Scottish referendum, once it's White Paper was published the numbers changed dramatically.

Question is for Dublin and the SoS, how long can they go on not putting this question to the test before they are blatantly breaking the spirit of the GFA.
On those figures...not much longer in my opinion.

jh79 · 01-05-2021 10:04am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Undeniable. The benefits and how the cost will be met is also relevant. See the Scottish referendum, once it's White Paper was published the numbers changed dramatically.

Question is for Dublin and the SoS, how long can they go on not putting this question to the test before they are blatantly breaking the spirit of the GFA.
On those figures...not much longer in my opinion.

The GFA says if likely to pass so not having one is adhering to the GFA.

FrancieBrady · 01-05-2021 10:13am

jh79 wrote: »

The GFA says if likely to pass so not having one is adhering to the GFA.

The SoS, according to British courts, can decide on the outcome of two flies racing up a window, if he/she wants. And is answerable to no-one in that he/she does not have to provide evidence for why they made the decision.

He/she could think as I do, that a firm proposal is likely to get it over the line.

jh79 · 01-05-2021 10:17am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The SoS, according to British courts, can decide on the outcome of two flies racing up a window, if he/she wants. And is answerable to no-one in that he/she does not have to provide evidence for why they made the decision.

He/she could think as I do, that a firm proposal is likely to get it over the line.

Point is by not having one he is faithful to the terms of the GFA as there is no evidence it is likely to pass.

FrancieBrady · 01-05-2021 10:21am

jh79 wrote: »

Point is by not having one he is faithful to the terms of the GFA as there is no evidence it is likely to pass.

Of course, undeniable.

But the figures wanting this put to the test won't be ignored. It would be criminal to do that in light of Brexit.

downcow · 01-05-2021 10:27am

Another interesting take on the poll.
Seems some here who have been slaying me need to pull their horns in
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/the-centenary/centenary-poll-suggests-only-29-of-people-in-northern-ireland-consider-irish-language-to-be-important-40375679.html

jh79 · 01-05-2021 10:28am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course, undeniable.

But the figures wanting this put to the test won't be ignored. It would be criminal to do that in light of Brexit.

But how vocal will people be given they don't actually want a change?

How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

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