soild fuel stove advise

cnocbui · 28-03-2009 10:53am

ttm wrote: »

90 degree curved bend? How do you sweep it?

flexible rods.

ttm · 28-03-2009 11:22am

cnocbui wrote: »

flexible rods.

Thats good to hear

I've seen a fair few stoves installed with liners that are very difficult if not imposible to push rods up due to a 90degree bend at the bottom. I've also seen a couple of chimney fires and even if they cause no damage the resulting mess from the fire bigrade putting them out is just not worth it.

gsxr1 · 28-03-2009 11:31am

should you not have a soot door on a 90. ??

ttm · 28-03-2009 11:55am

If theres room, to make it simple I use a T piece and blank off the bottom to the T and use that as a soot door/sweep access instead of a right angle. I find soot doors get damaged and are never big enough to make sweeping easy and anything thats not easy tends to get left undone. With cnocbui's set up I think he kept it simple by connecting the liner directly to the stove which is something that I might also do in some circumstances on smaller heat only stoves and then slide the stove out to sweep the chimney. btw one trick in moving a stove is to slide a sheet of thin steel sheet under it and slide it on the steel sheet, not always easy to get the sheet under the stove but can be done, if the stoves on legs then use two steel sheets about a foot wide and 3-4ft long one for each side (I haven't read the whole thread so appologies if thats already been mentioned)

Carlow52 · 28-03-2009 12:12pm

saw one yday on a varda stove which had a removable piece on the bend that would allow rodding easily in both directions
HTH

ttm · 28-03-2009 1:07pm

Carlow52 wrote: »

saw one yday on a varda stove which had a removable piece on the bend that would allow rodding easily in both directions
HTH

Cast Iron? If so they tend to be fine with nice heavy screw threads that don't get messed up. I was thinking more of the stainless steel ones with self tapping screws, don't even think they are for multifuel stoves but get used all the same.

Carlow52 · 28-03-2009 4:20pm

ttm wrote: »

Another note added when I edit this post. My chimney is a bit strange its just a couple of sections of 4inch stainless steel on the outside of the house, it draws well enough but is not ideal, however it was very cheap and improving it would be more expense and effort than I need atm. I have a T piece at the bottom of the external section of the chimney so cleaning is easily done outside the house with little mess.

U happy this meets Part J, in terms of diameter?

ttm · 28-03-2009 5:35pm

doh! sorry so used to talking about 4inch drains I forgot the chimney is done in 5inch stainless (will go back and edit again again). After the initial proof of concept (cost of chimney about 100euro) the plan was to do all the outside in insulated sections but due to cost never got around to it. Only downside of the way it is now is that as its a "cold" chimney it needs regular cleaning, but as I check it every week I suspect its safer than two of our neighbours who both have right angled elbows welded to the bottom of the chimney index plate and I can't see how they are ever going to clean them normal (traditional) rods just won't go around the elbow.

As for part J don't think the chimney for the woodburner (stove) would comply either, if you could get into the bottom of the chimney you could stand a dozen people in it and no way would I ever think of lining it! Its an old old cottage with no foundation that sometimes floods and keeping the chimney warm and well ventilated keeps the core of the house dry.

On the other hand in a newer house I'd probably use the correct grade of liner and infill with vermiculite.

cnocbui · 28-03-2009 7:22pm

ttm wrote: »

Thats good to hear I've seen a fair few stoves installed with liners that are very difficult if not imposible to push rods up due to a 90degree bend at the bottom. I've also seen a couple of chimney fires and even if they cause no damage the resulting mess from the fire bigrade putting them out is just not worth it.

It's not a sharp 90 deg bend, it is a constant radius curve. Liners incorporating titanium are supposed to be fully capable of withstanding a chimney fire.

Underwriters Laboratory declared that flex systems excel standards for chimney safety and can even withstand a chimney fire and still maintain structural integrity.

Not that I would let things get to the point of being able to verify that myself

I have read that some people make it a habit to periodically run their stove to the point of initiating a controlled burn of the chimney deposits. I wonder how thay can tell when they have 'ignition'

ttm · 28-03-2009 9:10pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I have read that some people make it a habit to periodically run their stove to the point of initiating a controlled burn of the chimney deposits. I wonder how thay can tell when they have 'ignition'

The way I know with big open fireplaces is to stuff newpaper up the chimney and light them - BUT DON'T TRY IT - I've been told by plenty of old gardeners and keepers thats the easy way to clean a chimney. No worries about telling if you have ignition! My step daughter had a good chimney fire, it was a calm night and we were walking back across the garden (big stately home garden not ours

) and suddenly wondered where the fog on the lawn came from then we realised it was smoke then looking at the top of the chimney looked like a Roman Candle and then it started to sound like a jet engine getting closer. We rushed into the house and the sound was louder. It was an open fire and I put it out and closed it off with a large sheet of metal (LOL just the sort of thing eveyone has to hand just in case) but nothing changed, the chimney roared away, so we called the fire brigade and they put it out. They just used a stirup pump with the end tied to some sweeps rods. At least they put tarpulins over the carpet and furniture but what a smoky mess when they finished. I found this online (sorry its from the US) which covers chimney fires quite well. I've lived in lots of old cottages where previous occupents have started chimney fires as they were to lazy and stupid to clean them properly and on solid old chimneys you can get away with it if you do it before the tar build up gets to bad but eventually you get one fire that wreaks the chimney completely. Most of the old cottages I refer to had upstairs walls with cracks in them and tar running down. As for actually cleaning the chimney the stories of using a holly branches for cleaning the chimney pulled down on a rope are true (tried it good method if it doesn't get stuck), not so sure about the stories I've heard about using a live chicken, and drunken gamekeepers (even some sober ones) have been know to fire shotguns up or down chimneys to clean them.... and clear out stuck holly branches.

PeteHeat · 30-03-2009 11:35pm

cnocbui wrote: »

It's not a sharp 90 deg bend, it is a constant radius curve. Liners incorporating titanium are supposed to be fully capable of withstanding a chimney fire.

I believe if you look in the smal print you will find the liner capable of withstanding a chimney fire, but it must be replaced in the event of a fire, same goes for twin wall insulated flue.

The liner is not designed to be attached directly to the stove, there are specific adapters for connecting flexi to steel, (stainless, vitreous etc.).

While you and ttm appear to know the limitations and cautions that need to be taken after you after you installed your appliances others may not.

ttm I suggest that you check with the manufacturer of your cooker regarding using anthricite, the same fuel caused the grates to burn out of a lot of cookers in the 80's.

Your post on the different fuels made for very interesting reading as did the care you are taking with your flues.

You are spot on re setting fire to the chimneys, anyone who lives in old Dublin Corporation houses 1930's / 40's look around at the chimneys, most are cracked because they were poured concrete and could not take the heat of a "good chimney fire".

Children were sent up the flues by chimney sweeps, no it wasn't in the last recession

Victorian times I believe (ever seen Mary Poppins ?).

cnocbui · 31-03-2009 2:02pm

PeteHeat wrote: »

I believe if you look in the smal print you will find the liner capable of withstanding a chimney fire, but it must be replaced in the event of a fire, same goes for twin wall insulated flue.

The liner is not designed to be attached directly to the stove, there are specific adapters for connecting flexi to steel, (stainless, vitreous etc.).

I was by no means advocating chimney fires or trying to be cavalier about them and their dangers. Having read through the thread I was rather disconcerted at the number of people who think a liner is an expensive luxury and just plumb the stove into an existing 200mm ceramic lined flue.

I was trying to highlight their advantages, particularly the safety margin they add, in the hope that people reading this thread might be encouraged to fit one, rather than take shortcuts.

I bought those adapters at the same time I did the liner and found them to be extremely ugly and ill-fitting. Fitting them would have entailed 3 joints that had to be sealed. I had absolutely no confidence in them mainatining seal integrity for any length of time, so I returned them The direct connection of liner to stove may not have been a design aim, but it is a mechanically superior solution to the alternative I had available. My installation has not given the slightest trouble in 7 years.

Children were sent up the flues by chimney sweeps, no it wasn't in the last recession Victorian times I believe (ever seen Mary Poppins ?).

Charles Kingsley's The Water-Babies, a victorian fairy story, featured a chimney sweep as the main character and depicted the horrors of the practice.

Carlow52 · 31-03-2009 9:36pm

The regs limit the horz distance to one flue diameter: most stove installation guides have similiar or a 150mm limit.

If u have a 150mm diameter flue: then if u measure from center of flue to center of flue the actual horz bit is only 75mm:(

Any thoughts?

fmcc · 01-04-2009 9:38am

Sorry Carlow don,t understand the question is the leangth of the horz run of flue 75mm?

Carlow52 · 06-04-2009 2:10pm

Both links posted to show the ideas, and are not specific product recommendations

http://www.charnwood.com/features-external-air-manifold.asp

I know this idea is promoted by a chimney company in the BMW region and they will make one to order

http://www.charnwood.com/charnwood-flue-boiler.asp

[On this one Croppyboy will prolly weld a 40 gal barrel around that massive stove he has in the work shop:) ]

ttm · 06-04-2009 2:41pm

Carlow52 wrote: »

Both links posted to show the ideas, and are not specific product recommendations

http://www.charnwood.com/features-external-air-manifold.asp

I know this idea is promoted by a chimney company in the BMW region and they will make one to order

http://www.charnwood.com/charnwood-flue-boiler.asp

[On this one Croppyboy will prolly weld a 40 gal barrel around that massive stove he has in the work shop:) ]

I've always had a couple of reservations about flue boilers and other systems that recover heat from the flue gases which revolve around the fact if the chimney doesn't get hot enough then much of the "muck" that would otherwise leave the chimney as a gas or in particulate form precipitates out on the cold walls of the chimney. In other words the trade off is that you need to clean your chimney MORE often if you use the above flue boiler unless you are putting more fuel on the stove.

fmcc · 06-04-2009 3:14pm

Agree with ttm if the stove is already 75% eff and now we get more heat from the flue the flue gases are cooler and nit rising as fast. By all means try it but it may lead to chimney trouble. Its a similar idea to a condensing boiler but these often have a fan flue system.

PeteHeat · 06-04-2009 3:37pm

Hi ffmc,

Very good point, it is very difficult to get a stable flue gas temperature from a solid fuel as the temperature has to depend on the air intake and the quality of the fuel used.

As ttm pointed the the flue will need to be cleaned more often because there are two different temperatures at work, flue gas and the temperature of the water.

sooty_soupy · 16-08-2009 10:42am

We were at the Royal Welsh Show and spoke to the rep for Charnwood. We broached the exact same point. We insist on steel lining and insulating every stove we install to ensure high flue gas temperatures on these super efficient stoves, especially insets FMCC, but that is in another post.

When we asked the rep about the additional cooling effect on flue gasses and the fact that the cooling effect on the already low flue temperatures were just going to encourage condensate build up, their guy just looked at us with a blank expression. He just didn't know what I was talking about. Perhaps he was out of his depth and should have had more training before being thrown into the deep end, but it didn't reflect well on the company not to have the answers to such a fundamental issue.

MUST TRY HARDER CHARNWOOD before we recommend them.

sooty_soupy · 16-08-2009 12:12pm

After a recent PM, I have been advised to rethink the message I am giving out by my last post.

Don't misunderstand what I am meaning here. It is not a new technology that Charnwood are introducing. Secondary heat recovery systems have been seen in Victorian houses in the past.

I am merely pointing out that with such a highly efficient appliance, my concerns are that a low flue gas temperature from a product as good as a Charnwood or some of it's healthy rivals, leads chimney technicians to be a little hot under the collar when we are having such a hard time convincing the general public to steel line the chimneys anyway. I would have expected the sales rep at the show to have insisted on steel lining to ensure a flue works as well as possible when there is a significant cooling effect acting directly on the gasses as they exit the appliance.

If anyone from Charnwood would care to enlighten the forum or myself personally I would love to hear their comments, as the sales rep couldn't give me the anwers I needed.. Simple as that

gsxr1 · 07-10-2009 8:34pm

time to crank up the stove again. freezing.

cubix · 07-10-2009 8:50pm

I did read through most of this post a while back but cant remember the final out come with regards to the best way to vent it into a normal chimmeny/fireplace that was used to burn solid fuel( coal/wood etc)

Thanks

PeteHeat · 08-10-2009 1:21am

Hi,

Despite the advice given to line the flue with the correct diameter liner designed, made and certified for solid fuel and back filled with vermiculite others still prefer to use a flue inserted into the existing clay flue and others happy to use adapters that have been shown to have problems and are against the building regulations.

I didn't count how many in favour of which method, two I know prefer the professional approach.

.

gsxr1 · 08-10-2009 6:08pm

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi,

Despite the advice given to line the flue with the correct diameter liner designed, made and certified for solid fuel and back filled with vermiculite others still prefer to use a flue inserted into the existing clay flue and others happy to use adapters that have been shown to have problems and are against the building regulations.

I didn't count how many in favour of which method, two I know prefer the professional approach.

.

im straight into the clay linner via an adaptor. Money is very tight .

Must get her cleaned soon.

PeteHeat · 08-10-2009 9:27pm

gsxr1 wrote: »

im straight into the clay linner via an adaptor. Money is very tight .

Must get her cleaned soon.

It has nothing to do with getting people to spend more money just because its available.

How much are the lives of your family worth ?

Can you afford to re-build your home out of cash in the bank ?
Because the insurance companies do not cover known hazards.

Why buy a stove that has efficiency ratings based on the flue size then prevent the stove from working as it should ?

Don't expect the manufacturer or retailer of the adaptor to take the blame when the worst happens, none of them take responsibility for the installation of a part or product they have no control over after it leaves the factory / shop.

I think I am qualified to make such a statement

.

gsxr1 · 08-10-2009 11:42pm

PeteHeat wrote: »

It has nothing to do with getting people to spend more money just because its available.

How much are the lives of your family worth ?

Can you afford to re-build your home out of cash in the bank ?
Because the insurance companies do not cover known hazards.

Why buy a stove that has efficiency ratings based on the flue size then prevent the stove from working as it should ?

Don't expect the manufacturer or retailer of the adaptor to take the blame when the worst happens, none of them take responsibility for the installation of a part or product they have no control over after it leaves the factory / shop.

I think I am qualified to make such a statement

.

sorry but I never suggested that I was ever going to blame fittings and insurance companies or anyone of anything???

It does have a lot to do with money. The majority of the population may disagree with you . lol.
Gings where i got it, and sack cloths and ashes fitters told me to do it this way.

I will see the state of the chimney soon as it will be getting cleaned and inspected. After a year of use and never really getting a chance to cool Apart form summer . There should be evidence of creosote . If there is a heavy deposit I will upgrade.

I hope it will be fine. was a brand new unused chimney before install. So results of using an adaptor as opposed to spending 1000s on a twin walled liner should be clear. Pic to come. maybe next week.

sooty_soupy · 09-10-2009 1:38pm

This is becoming tiresome to say the least. I will go on record and state that anyone selling these adapters are rogues, or ill educated box movers who have no regard to anything but selling a box and forgetting about you. Have a look at the images (if I have attached them properly) and see what I mean. Condensate is the treacle like substance generated from burning fuel with moisture in it. This is cooled on clay liners and the idea behind these adapters was it should contain the moisture into the stove to be re evaporated. The adapters allow the condensate to leak around the outside pipe rather than contain it....it's simple.

The other images are of chimneys that have condensate leaking from upside down or cracked liners. Chimney fires have been registered at over 2000 degrees C from wood burning appliances. As Pete has said, a stove is tested and rated at a KW output based on the diameter of flue the manufacturer has stipulated in the installation instructions. WHY WHY WHY would you spend good money on a stove and fit it like an idiot and wonder why it is not performing like you wanted it to. OVER RATED FLUES CAN BE UNSAFE....and that is stated in building regs up here in the north and you guys have similar regs down there.

Have a nice day

David

Registered chimney technician

Eurorunner · 09-10-2009 4:11pm

sooty_soupy wrote: »

This is becoming tiresome to say the least.

Tiresome, perhaps - but where were you all with this advice when this thread started a year ago?

If these things are dangerous, shouldnt the trade lead bringing about their withdrawal from the market?

I did a diy install last year using one of these adapters - read extensively on all aspects of the subject but never came across this..

So am I right in saying the only way to rectify is to use a proper liner from chimney top directly into the stove?

gsxr1 · 09-10-2009 4:31pm

sooty_soupy wrote: »

This is becoming tiresome to say the least. I will go on record and state that anyone selling these adapters are rogues, or ill educated box movers who have no regard to anything but selling a box and forgetting about you. Have a look at the images (if I have attached them properly) and see what I mean. Condensate is the treacle like substance generated from burning fuel with moisture in it. This is cooled on clay liners and the idea behind these adapters was it should contain the moisture into the stove to be re evaporated. The adapters allow the condensate to leak around the outside pipe rather than contain it....it's simple.

The other images are of chimneys that have condensate leaking from upside down or cracked liners. Chimney fires have been registered at over 2000 degrees C from wood burning appliances. As Pete has said, a stove is tested and rated at a KW output based on the diameter of flue the manufacturer has stipulated in the installation instructions. WHY WHY WHY would you spend good money on a stove and fit it like an idiot and wonder why it is not performing like you wanted it to. OVER RATED FLUES CAN BE UNSAFE....and that is stated in building regs up here in the north and you guys have similar regs down there.

Have a nice day

David

Registered chimney technician

so what is the solution for me. I am not paying 1000s to vent a stove into an existing new chimney. That solution is out. With no job its not happening.
Are there any ways to combat the trecle stuff. Additive we can add to our fires. As well as regular cleaning.
The example you have shown . Did the owners clean there stoves and use seasoned wood?
I burned wood and coal all last year and have no leaks like the pic.
here is mine taken today when cool.
the black stuff is the mastic I used along with fire cement and was there from day one.

PeteHeat · 10-10-2009 2:39am

Eurorunner wrote: »

Tiresome, perhaps - but where were you all with this advice when this thread started a year ago?

If these things are dangerous, shouldnt the trade lead bringing about their withdrawal from the market?

I did a diy install last year using one of these adapters - read extensively on all aspects of the subject but never came across this..

So am I right in saying the only way to rectify is to use a proper liner from chimney top directly into the stove?

Hi,

How many people actually buy from a stove shop where the full service of supply and installation is offered ?

I know there are many who visit such outlets, there are times the same people are looking to see the stove they intend buying off the internet and of course will take all of the best advice they can get free of charge, of course that does not mean they act on the advice given.

That should answer the question about the trade leading the way having the product withdrawn, we are here giving you the advice and meeting with nothing less than opposition.

I can assure you running an outlet that sells quality products and installation is unusual, I was advised to stay off the shop floor and leave the sales to a young person who has no knowledge about installation, preferably someone strong enough to lift the box's into the cars, hence the term "Box Movers".

It is the job of the regulators to have the products removed from the market, as can be seen from the time of this post I am not going to launch a one man opposition to them, I simply do not have the time.

gsxr1

I know you won't appreciate this but the lovely copper colour that was once nice shiny stainless steel is Not A Good Sign.

It suggests that your flue gas temperature is way too high, at a guess I would say somewhere around 700c + (too late to check the database).

I don't know the stove model in the photo but it looks like it should be about 5 kw I doubt you are getting anything near 60% efficiency, it may also explain why you don't have a creosote problem.

Stainless steel is not designed to be subjected to such high flue gas temperatures, my source is quite possibly the company who manufactured your adapter.

If / when the adaptor develops a small hole you then have the hidden problem of carbon monoxide, if you and your family are lucky the hole will be big enough to allow you smell smoke.

.

Eurorunner · 10-10-2009 8:34am

Yes, buying off the internet sure - but the decision process is this for many.

A. Buy off the internet.

OR

B. cant afford to do the job so do without it.

I would have opted for B if I had known what I now know...

gsxr1 · 10-10-2009 10:50am

It is a 6.4kw stanley. and really to hot for the room. So i have to keep her at 1/4 for the most time. It heats my whole 2 bedroom town house with all the doors open. No need to use the gas at all except for water.

But I do a full temp burn for an hour or so every week . The rear fittings go a low cherry red in complete dark during this exercise.

would explain the discolouration. After your advise I will tone it down a little.
No fact behind it, something i figured. A full blast burn will keep it clean and really warms the whole chimney breast of the house for the rest of the week.
Thats just my guess work by the way. Not sure if it is good or bad. But by keeping your whole chimney warm I believe there is less chance of condensation settling on it during light ups in the evenings

As said . Maintaining a clean chimney is important to me as I am at a disadvantage from the start with the adaptor. Thats all i can hope to do( with the addition of 2 carbon monoxide detectors one in the living room and one in the landing upstairs. )

till money returns to my pocket anyways.

40 euro to get it sweept next tues.

I know my set up is wrong. and I am making excuses. But it is what it is now

{edit}Just fitted 2 extra detectors after your warning. in each bedroom.
thats 4 plus 2 smoke alarms and 2 heat detectors. Tis like the starship enterprise with all the flashing lights lol

I was also thinking. Even if there was a leak. Surly the leak would draw air in rather than push gas out with the draw from the draft plus the heat rising?. Im sure the adaptor is not air tight as they are all spot welded.

Eurorunner · 10-10-2009 11:27am

gsxr1 wrote: »

I know my set up is wrong. and I am making excuses. But it is what it is now

You can still stick in a liner sometime when funds allow though?

Have hardly used mine but its still serving a purpose by sealing off that hole and keeping heat in.

kodak · 10-10-2009 12:07pm

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi,

How many people actually buy from a stove shop where the full service of supply and installation is offered ?

.

I have bought a stove from a large shop (well known) and they did a survey and fitted it.

I must say it was the worst possible job and a dangerous one too.
The quality of work was brutal. Had to get them out to do it again and even still it was poor. I ended up taking it apart and doing it myself.
So just beacause you get a professional to do it, doesn't mean it's a safe or good job. You just presume that.

My last stove i fitted myself. And although it may not be 100% correct and within the regs, as i used a clay adaptor it was a much better job than a 'professional did' on my first stove.

I will keep an eye on it and i only burn well seasoned wood and coal and keep it clean, according to the manufactures instructions.

I think a well looked after chimney and flue is much safer than leaving the iron on or burning unattended candles. Of which most of us do more often than we llike!

gsxr1 · 10-10-2009 12:59pm

Eurorunner wrote: »

You can still stick in a liner sometime when funds allow though?

Have hardly used mine but its still serving a purpose by sealing off that hole and keeping heat in.

that is true. And will happen in better times. For sure.

I dont think I could sell the house in the future with the current set up either.

Im thinking I may be liable if all went tits up for a new owner.

Although its so frustrating to hear . I do acknowledge the better advise especially by peat . It not falling on deaf ears. thanks

sooty_soupy · 10-10-2009 3:11pm

Ok the pictures sent with the stove going out through the open fire by gsxr1. If I were at your house as a registered chimney technician, I would be condemning the installation as a fire hazard to start with. You have not got enough non combustible material in front of the appliance to comply with fire and building regulations to begin with. If you ever have a house fire and the fire inspection people decide the stove was the cause, you insurance company would walk away from you.

The other thing that strikes me is the fact you have effectively got a 90 degree bend of the back of the stove which is a critical point for flue gases to discharge from the stove. If accumulation gathers at this point it will restrict the flue and can cause carbon monoxide issues and performance problems. If a stove is to be vented from the rear a 90 degree bend is never to be used. It is safer to use a t section to allow for a collection area for soot to gather but not restrict the flue.

As for Eurorunner, I can assure you I have been here for 20 years in the North sorting out these problems. My credentials speak for themselves. We have had five sales this week to customers from over the border as the advice from box movers is "dubious and misleading" to quote one customer.

It appears that people like Pete and I are all singing loudly from the hymn sheet, meanwhile the box mover are getting away with blue murder. Here is something to mull over. If you can buy the stove on the internet, or in every street corner shop, and the prices are being cut to shreds, what does this tell you...it tells me that the manufacturer couldn't give a damn about WHO sells the stoves as long as they are selling, because they don't care about their product. We had to be vetted by Clearview, in Shropshire, at our expense, for 3 or 4 days before they would consider us, and it was only because of my sound background in the solid fuel industry that swayed their decision. Now what does that tell you about them? THEY HAVE PRIDE IN THEIR PRODUCT, AND A REPUTATION TO PROTECT.

Once more...I hope this helps.

David

gsxr1 · 10-10-2009 5:53pm

so how much would it cost to line the flu? not including the larger hearth. I take it you sell them.......

it is two 45 degree angles which is completely acceptable and not a 90 bend by the way.
I thought you with all your credentials would know that???
it has a 12" straight inbetween the 45s so the whole 90 degree bend thing does not apply .

As for the front. It should have a large harth. But it does not. There is a large tile put in front for opening when lit.

And as I am the only one who operates the stove , Its not an issue.. Regardless of regs. My house is 99.9% not going to burn down lol.

Eurorunner · 10-10-2009 6:05pm

Yes, It does help. Its just a little frustrating that these fittings are not fit for purpose. I suppose the very fact that they exist and are stocked by many hardware outlets led me to assume that they are robust enough to do the job and don't affect the performance of the stove.

I will probably line it at some point in the future. Luckily enough, Its very rarely used right now - happy enough that it acts as an air seal - preventing heat from the main heating system escaping.
Probably take the opportunity to extend the hearth and move it out further into the room as i'm not getting the max value out of it right now anyway.

sooty_soupy · 11-10-2009 9:16am

I want you to have a look at the picture I have attached and try to grasp why 90 degree bends, or 2 x 45 degree bends are a problem. It is easy to have a "laugh at loud" when someone is trying to give you sound advice, but your head is buried in the sand as to how dangerous these things can be.

It is the collection area for soot that is the problem, not the actual bend. Once it clogs up with soot, or with washed down crust, THAT CAN HAPPEN AT ANY STAGE BETWEEN SWEEPING SERVICES, THE FLUE CAN BLOCK INSTANTLY AT THIS HORIZONTAL POINT, you are and your family are statistics. I'm not so sure that sarcasm would save you in a situation like this. I'm not disputing that some in the industry would suggest a swept 45/45 bend is safe, but what I am saying is there is a safer way again...I'm trying to steer you in the right direction and questioning my credentials publicly is disappointing to say the least. I know if the safety of my family was in question, I would be glad to accept free advice, especially when it makes probably more sense than you have ever heard from the box mover/profit driven idiot that knows about numbers and spreadsheets.

Pete and I have had more discussions between ourselves as to how exasperating it is to be spending our time giving our educated views to the general public, for the customer to walk out of the shop and buy online, or go the cheap route...the ironic thing is when things go wrong, who do these people come looking for when they can't get answers from the internet seller or the idiot in the hardware shop....oh yes we're on one right now, looking for expert guidance....then when you get it, you give snide comments when the answers are forthcoming.

The pictures I have posted has caused mild brain damage to the client, and he was lucky....and much like Kodak's experience, it was a "big firm" up here that did it too... the case rumbles on today, and I am apparently going to be called as an expert witness.

To answer a lot of your questions, you are able to retro fit a steel sleeve to the flue. Use the correct, weep hole adapter, pot hanger sleeve, make sure the chimney is thoroughly, if not mechanically cleaned before installation to prevent rotting from the outside, use 904 grade steel if you can afford it, especially if you burn coal as well as wood and turf. Finally, ensure the flue is insulated with vermiculite or equivalent. It adds stability to the flue and ensures a maintained flue gas temperature when the appliance is burning slowly. Our manufacturer of choice is a company called Docherty Chimney Group in England. They have been making this stuff for years, and the biggest proportion of registered technicians in the UK use it, including all of us in the North. We have tried all the others and find them inferior and because they are "springy" they are difficult to work with....and that comes from 18 years experience working with steel lining.

And yes...we stock the stuff, and would imagine that if someone is able to access the roof, then installation would not be too taxing to the 5/8th in the street after they have seen our showroom set up, where we have a flue display area set up for this very purpose. Cost is dependant on the grade of liner and length, but about £600 should buy the materials if you are using the 904 grade stuff on an average 8m flue, with the 20 year warranty, and to most, a day will install it. 316 flue for wood and turf use only would be a little cheaper at about £400 for the same length. VAT would be added and you would need a few bags of vermiculite.

There..hope that kicks a Sunday morning off well on Boards.

I need a day off !!!

Keep safe

Qwerty? · 11-10-2009 9:35am

sooty_soupy wrote: »

.I'm trying to steer you in the right direction and questioning my credentials publicly is disappointing to say the least. I know if the safety of my family was in question, I would be glad to accept free advice, especially when it makes probably more sense than you have ever heard from the box mover/profit driven idiot that knows about numbers and spreadsheets.

Keep safe

I for one appreciate the free, accurate advice Sooty, and not once in our emails did you try to sell me anything, just advised me on what I needed.

I sent you another email that you might have a look at when you've had your day off:D.

Thanks Again

Qwerty.

quasiff · 11-10-2009 12:09pm

Yesterday I put in an Oisin the same way as GSXR1, also in a new, never used chimney. I did what was recommended to me by other people (2 builders and the hardware shop who sold me the flue components and the stove). I haven't lit it yet and the fire cement is still soft. This morning I'm reading this.

I looked at the Stanley installation check list and it says 2 things of relevance. One, it should have a minimum of 6' of 5" flue pipe and two, "Appliance should be connected to a chimney of less than 250mm (8") in diameter (otherwise the chimney must be lined with a 5" flue liner)". Note that 250mm is 10", not 8". I expect they mean 200mm. Next point is that the information inside the manual seems to contradict this, saying a flue of 5" to 6" is what is allowed but it's somewhat ambiguous. It would be consistent if they meant the first 6' of flue should be between 5" and 6" diameter.

The 90 degree elbow is listed as allowed, and the one I fitted has a removable panel for access.

It looks to me as if the Stanley recommendation could be met by doing the following: Remove the adapter and fit 1.3m of 5" flue liner to the top to meet the 1800mm requirement and seal the gap at the top of this with fire cement and rock wool. Access to the top of the inserted liner is a problem. I could fit a soot door on the outside wall and access it through this.

Any suggestions, and rationale for the suggestions, from the experts regarding this solution?

gsxr1 · 14-10-2009 2:26am

Chimney sweep inspected today. Says it was fine and completely safe . Everything clean and in good working order. No soot build up at all at the 45 fitting.

quasiff · 14-10-2009 6:20pm

gsxr1 wrote: »

Chimney sweep inspected today. Says it was fine and completely safe . Everything clean and in good working order. No soot build up at all at the 45 fitting.

That's good to hear. Thank you for posting.

I looked up info about this and there is not much quantitative info published on the web. The 200mm chimney flue will draw air faster and might cause condensation, depending on a whole lot of conditions. The diameter of the chimney appears to be required to be at least one size bigger than the stove flue, and generally there isn't noted any upper limit. Liners seem to be recommended when the chimney is old (pre 1970 or thereabouts) and may be leaking, except by the liner suppliers who unsurprisingly seem to recommend them for every situation.

It seems burning unsuitable fuel (wet timber, for example) will be a problem anyway, whatever the flue size. Also running the stove at a very low level can cause it. Some "expert" suggested that a bucket of coal should be used every few days if only wood is burned to help prevent this. The Oisin is OK with anthracite but not petroleum coke, according to the manual.

If condensation is an issue with large flue sizes this will necessarily be climate and building exposure dependent, so cold climates (Canada for example) will have a worse problem than mild climates like southern Ireland.

Stanley sell these stoves all over the world, as far as I can tell, so they have to make their instruction manual deal with extremes beyond what we'd expect here. This means we can always be OK if we follow the rules prescribed (and as suggested by the experts who posted earlier) but not necessarily have problems if we deviate somewhat. As I said before, the Stanley manual is not very clear and open to interpretation.

I'm not an expert, and this is just my own personal conclusion. All expert comments welcome.

gsxr1 · 14-10-2009 6:29pm

quasiff wrote: »

That's good to hear. Thank you for posting.

I looked up info about this and there is not much quantitative info published on the web. The 200mm chimney flue will draw air faster and might cause condensation, depending on a whole lot of conditions. The diameter of the chimney appears to be required to be at least one size bigger than the stove flue, and generally there isn't noted any upper limit. Liners seem to be recommended when the chimney is old (pre 1970 or thereabouts) and may be leaking, except by the liner suppliers who unsurprisingly seem to recommend them for every situation.

It seems burning unsuitable fuel (wet timber, for example) will be a problem anyway, whatever the flue size. Also running the stove at a very low level can cause it. Some "expert" suggested that a bucket of coal should be used every few days if only wood is burned to help prevent this. The Oisin is OK with anthracite but not petroleum coke, according to the manual.

If condensation is an issue with large flue sizes this will necessarily be climate and building exposure dependent, so cold climates (Canada for example) will have a worse problem than mild climates like southern Ireland.

Stanley sell these stoves all over the world, as far as I can tell, so they have to make their instruction manual deal with extremes beyond what we'd expect here. This means we can always be OK if we follow the rules prescribed (and as suggested by the experts who posted earlier) but not necessarily have problems if we deviate somewhat. As I said before, the Stanley manual is not very clear and open to interpretation.

I'm not an expert, and this is just my own personal conclusion. All expert comments welcome.

I seen a Canadian web site suggest using lots of paper and fast burning tinder to get your chimney hot as quick as possible . This reduces the chance of condensation .

I dont run her low much. In fact it my Stanleys front window gets black , it indicates that it need tuning up . You wont be disappointed with the little stove. They are fantastic.

ttm · 14-10-2009 6:50pm

So here's a simple reason why a vermiculite insulated liner is good for a multifuel stove - it needs far less heat than a traditional lined brick chimney to warm up.

If we look at the traditional open fire with 60%+ of the heat going up the chimney then that 60% of the heat is keeping the chimney hot.

Whats up with a cold chimney? Simple all the tar and muck from the fire hits a cold surface and condenses. So cold chimeny equals more tar deposits.

Finally lets look at a 80% efficient Multifuel stove that is throttled back so the fuel is just smoldering now there is 20% of the heat to keep the chimeny warm and the air starved fire isn't burning efficiently so producing more smoke, soot and tar than normal.

So if the traditional design chimney worked fine with lots of air and 60% of the heat from the fire heating it up how is it going to work with very little heat and a very smokey fire?

In many cases it works just fine BUT it needs far more attention and cleaning than most people will give it so safer to put in a liner that stays warm and operates correctly with the more efficient MultiFuel stoves.

Put in a tight 90degree bend and maybe next time you go to sweep the chimney you find its too much hassle and don't bother

gabbo is coming · 01-11-2009 8:21am

gsxr1 wrote: »

Chimney sweep inspected today. Says it was fine and completely safe . Everything clean and in good working order. No soot build up at all at the 45 fitting.

Had chimney swept about a month ago, I installed mine based on gsxr1. Said it was the standard install, nothing wrong with it. I also have a carbon monoxide alarm above it.

On another note, I've had the back brick crack twice on the Oisin (once replaced by Stanley). Now, that it's broken again and the front two bars are bending way out of shape, I asked the sweep to look at it - he said it was a standard design flaw with the Oisin - they can't burn the smokeless as it burns too hot. That if I had smoke coal it'd be fine.

Anyone know (other than Stanley themselves) where to get spare parts?

I wouldn't recommend the Oisin to anyone thinking of burning smokeless coal, it's fine the briquettes.

gabbo is coming · 01-11-2009 9:30am

gsxr1 wrote: »

Chimney sweep inspected today. Says it was fine and completely safe . Everything clean and in good working order. No soot build up at all at the 45 fitting.

In fairness, when my sweep took out the 2x45 adapter I have going from the back of the Stanley to the flu, quite a lot of soot fell out when he tipped it out.
He said the chimney was clean and didn't really need a clean (but swept it anyway). He also didn't pass much heed to the buildup of soot.

This guy has been servicing boilers and chimneys for years and comes recommened from boards...

10-10-20 · 01-11-2009 11:56am

gabbo is coming wrote: »

On another note, I've had the back brick crack twice on the Oisin (once replaced by Stanley). Now, that it's broken again and the front two bars are bending way out of shape, I asked the sweep to look at it - he said it was a standard design flaw with the Oisin - they can't burn the smokeless as it burns too hot. That if I had smoke coal it'd be fine.

Anyone know (other than Stanley themselves) where to get spare parts?

I wouldn't recommend the Oisin to anyone thinking of burning smokeless coal, it's fine the briquettes.

My back brick is broken too. I'm burning wood and briquettes, so I think it was due to some over-enthusiastic fueling when it was hot.
I need to get a replacement back-brick. The original supplier, www.gings.ie said that they stock them, if that's any good to you. I seem to remember it was €30 for the brick.

ttm · 01-11-2009 12:29pm

gabbo is coming wrote: »

Had chimney swept about a month ago, I installed mine based on gsxr1. Said it was the standard install, nothing wrong with it. I also have a carbon monoxide alarm above it.

On another note, I've had the back brick crack twice on the Oisin (once replaced by Stanley). Now, that it's broken again and the front two bars are bending way out of shape, I asked the sweep to look at it - he said it was a standard design flaw with the Oisin - they can't burn the smokeless as it burns too hot. That if I had smoke coal it'd be fine.

Anyone know (other than Stanley themselves) where to get spare parts?

I wouldn't recommend the Oisin to anyone thinking of burning smokeless coal, it's fine the briquettes.

I'm not really sure what the problem with a crack is? Often a firebrick will crack and provided you don't move it will still do its job fine.

Its only a theory but I always try and have a "gentle" first fire so the fire bricks are dried out before I set a really hot fire. My logic is that the water in a damp fire brick has to go somewhere so a gentle fire will dry it out but a really hot one will just turn any moisture into steam and put pressure on the firebrick and crack it. As I said only a theory

. Same applies to a fire that hasn't been used in a while fire bricks will be damp so start off with a small fire first rather than a rageing infero.

gabbo is coming · 01-11-2009 5:44pm

ttm wrote: »

I'm not really sure what the problem with a crack is? Often a firebrick will crack and provided you don't move it will still do its job fine.

Its only a theory but I always try and have a "gentle" first fire so the fire bricks are dried out before I set a really hot fire. My logic is that the water in a damp fire brick has to go somewhere so a gentle fire will dry it out but a really hot one will just turn any moisture into steam and put pressure on the firebrick and crack it. As I said only a theory . Same applies to a fire that hasn't been used in a while fire bricks will be damp so start off with a small fire first rather than a rageing infero.

True TTM, it's just like two firebricks! But the bended bars at the front is bugging me when I open it to throw in fuel.Still, probably nothing wrong with them...

soild fuel stove advise

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